Indiana to open new Osteopathic Medical School

[FutureCTDoc]

The difference in this case between Marian and established medical schools with religious affiliations is that most are within major research institutions. That is at the heart of the matter. With the proliferation of new DO schools without major universities affiliated, I believe the profession will be negatively impacted. COCA could and should force all DO schools either into a major research university or tell them to close up shop. Ultimately we should focus on increasing the average GPA and MCAT, having university hospitals and improving residency options. The focus should not be on increasing enrollments at any cost.

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[GraceEuphoria]

I am simply interpreting what yollom said. So read his post if you're curious about the "bible college" comment.

It was more of a bible college non-accredidation issue than a religious affiliation issue.

Sure sure, sorry I quoted you instead of yollom on accident honestly. I was verifying that it had to be WCU based on the south part too. Even then, WCU is accredited, so I wasn't sure what his comment had to with anything and thought maybe the issue being addressed might have more to do with the religious affiliation.

They should open up a medical school in conjunction with Hogwarts. I don't see any objections to those beliefs.

Agreed.

The difference in this case between Marian and established medical schools with religious affiliations is that most are within major research institutions. That is at the heart of the matter. With the proliferation of new DO schools without major universities affiliated, I believe the profession will be negatively impacted. COCA could and should force all DO schools either into a major research university or tell them to close up shop. Ultimately we should focus on increasing the average GPA and MCAT, having university hospitals and improving residency options. The focus should not be on increasing enrollments at any cost.

Just like VCOM connects and works with VT, a new school in Indianapolis can and likely will connect and work with IU. While I understand the benefits of being affiliated with a large research university, I am still not convinced of it's necessity. Can you elaborate how it will negatively affect the future of medicine to create schools not affiliated with large universities? I'm open to these viewpoints currently, but at the same time I have full faith in my future at DCOM, affiliated with a small, religiously affiliated undergraduate institution. That's just my future though- what about the whole profession of which you are speaking? (no sarcasm here, genuine questioning...)

 

[Siggy]

The difference in this case between Marian and established medical schools with religious affiliations is that most are within major research institutions. That is at the heart of the matter. With the proliferation of new DO schools without major universities affiliated, I believe the profession will be negatively impacted. COCA could and should force all DO schools either into a major research university or tell them to close up shop. Ultimately we should focus on increasing the average GPA and MCAT, having university hospitals and improving residency options. The focus should not be on increasing enrollments at any cost.

...because research=quality education? What average GPA or MCAT would you like to see? At what point is too low to be considered for medical school? As long as schools are taking students that they believe are reasonable able to handle the curriculum, does it matter what the MCAT or GPA is? I get the feeling that, considering you're a first year undergraduate student, that your experience with medicine, medical school, and research amounts to zilch.

 

[FutureCTDoc]

...because research=quality education? What average GPA or MCAT would you like to see? At what point is too low to be considered for medical school? As long as schools are taking students that they believe are reasonable able to handle the curriculum, does it matter what the MCAT or GPA is? I get the feeling that, considering you're a first year undergraduate student, that your experience with medicine, medical school, and research amounts to zilch.

The average MCAT I would like to see is a 29 or 30 and a 3.55 GPA, the allopathic average. Honestly, I would say >3.4 and >27 is too low. If schools are forced to water down their curricula to pass students then the MCAT is too low, that is why we only have an 80% USMLE pass rate, it nominally covers the same material as the COMLEX sans OMM. The pass rate should be roughly equal i.e. around the 93% of the average allo school. I actually do research work on MOFs and my PI and I, plan to publish results shortly. As to medicine, I understand it very well. My father is a physician and my mother, a RN. My father was also a professor at a state medical school. I've spent over 300 hours shadowing and observed 100 surgeries. I think it is reasonable to say with the proliferation of DO schools boasting averages of 3.3 and 23 it is time for a change. 21 out of 120 allopathic schools are either stand alone or within a health sciences university out of osteopathic schools only MSU-COM, NYCOM, NSU-COM, OSU-COM, OU-COM and UNTHSC-COM are within a major research institution. With the rise of RVU-COM, a for profit school, perhaps it is time to look back to Flexner and see the error in accrediting these sort of schools.

 

[FutureCTDoc]

RESEARCH AT UMDNJ
• 1200+ Researchers
• 951 Research projects last year in basic, clinical, educational and other research.
• $122.9 million in NIH awards in FY 2007
• $184.8 million total external research awards in FY 2007
• Ranked 47th nationally in growth rate of total expenditures for the period from 2003 to
2006 among the 198 research universities receiving the most federal funding.
• 64% growth in federal expenditures in five-year period 2001-2006
• 51% growth in total expenditures for same period
• 67th in federal expenditures for FY 2006 (last report)

UMDNJ-SOM is not integrated within a major research institution. Remember that not all of this is A) For the college of osteopathic medicine B) Related to Medicine i.e. it may be dentistry or other unrelated areas C) There are 3 schools of medicine, 1 dental school, a grad school, nursing school, public health and allied health school; this is not solely UMDNJ-SOMs money and presenting it as such is flagrant misrepresentation.

 

[FutureCTDoc]

According to WVSOM their average was a 3.36 and 24 MCAT, LMU-DCOM has an average MCAT of 24 and 3.4 cum GPA. WCU-COM has a 23 and 3.4. This is per the admissions office at these schools. All of which are non-integrated.

 

[Daedra22]

The average MCAT I would like to see is a 29 or 30 and a 3.55 GPA, the allopathic average. Honestly, I would say >3.4 and >27 is too low. If schools are forced to water down their curricula to pass students then the MCAT is too low, that is why we only have an 80% USMLE pass rate, it nominally covers the same material as the COMLEX sans OMM. The pass rate should be roughly equal i.e. around the 93% of the average allo school. I actually do research work on MOFs and my PI and I, plan to publish results shortly. As to medicine, I understand it very well. My father is a physician and my mother, a RN. My father was also a professor at a state medical school. I've spent over 300 hours shadowing and observed 100 surgeries. I think it is reasonable to say with the proliferation of DO schools boasting averages of 3.3 and 23 it is time for a change. 21 out of 120 allopathic schools are either stand alone or within a health sciences university out of osteopathic schools only MSU-COM, NYCOM, NSU-COM, OSU-COM, OU-COM and UNTHSC-COM are within a major research institution. With the rise of RVU-COM, a for profit school, perhaps it is time to look back to Flexner and see the error in accrediting these sort of schools.

It is my hope that newer schools will increase the quality of education to attract better students and improve their standing as institutions. There are already DO schools trending the way you have described above...OU-COM, NSU-COM, ATSU-KCOM, UNTHSC/TCOM (basically, many of the schools you listed above)... to name a few. TCOM (which I know most intimately) has a 28 MCAT/3.6 GPA average and a 94% pass rate on the USMLE. However, TCOM has been around since the 70's, and the other more successful DO schools are also older... I hardly think that schools like LMU-DCOM, which have only been around the past few years, should be expected to be at that standard yet. In time, I think they will get there.

 

[WNT Signaling]

This isn't worth an argument. You said "within," UMDNJ-SOM is within UMDNJ. Out of all the osteopathic schools doing research, UMDNJ-SOM should not be the one among those that needs to be thoroughly detailed for you.

And my first question? Conveniently ignoring it?

The issue is that the osteopathic school of UMDNJ has a fraction of the research of the other two institutions. As I posted earlier in this thread, UMDNJ-DO has a lot of research for an osteopathic school, but it is dwarfed by even the least research-heavy allopathic institutions.

 

[JaggerPlate]

The average MCAT I would like to see is a 29 or 30 and a 3.55 GPA, the allopathic average. Honestly, I would say >3.4 and >27 is too low. If schools are forced to water down their curricula to pass students then the MCAT is too low, that is why we only have an 80% USMLE pass rate, it nominally covers the same material as the COMLEX sans OMM. The pass rate should be roughly equal i.e. around the 93% of the average allo school. I actually do research work on MOFs and my PI and I, plan to publish results shortly. As to medicine, I understand it very well. My father is a physician and my mother, a RN. My father was also a professor at a state medical school. I've spent over 300 hours shadowing and observed 100 surgeries. I think it is reasonable to say with the proliferation of DO schools boasting averages of 3.3 and 23 it is time for a change. 21 out of 120 allopathic schools are either stand alone or within a health sciences university out of osteopathic schools only MSU-COM, NYCOM, NSU-COM, OSU-COM, OU-COM and UNTHSC-COM are within a major research institution. With the rise of RVU-COM, a for profit school, perhaps it is time to look back to Flexner and see the error in accrediting these sort of schools.

Have you taken the MCAT yet? Do you think you'll be singing the same tune if you don't break 30? Also, if you feel this way as a FRESHMAN in college, I suggest you don't continue through at NOVA, and apply to one of these 'research heavy' schools so you can receive an identical education there.

 

[allopurinol]

The average MCAT I would like to see is a 29 or 30 and a 3.55 GPA, the allopathic average. Honestly, I would say >3.4 and >27 is too low. If schools are forced to water down their curricula to pass students then the MCAT is too low, that is why we only have an 80% USMLE pass rate, it nominally covers the same material as the COMLEX sans OMM. The pass rate should be roughly equal i.e. around the 93% of the average allo school. I actually do research work on MOFs and my PI and I, plan to publish results shortly. As to medicine, I understand it very well. My father is a physician and my mother, a RN. My father was also a professor at a state medical school. I've spent over 300 hours shadowing and observed 100 surgeries. I think it is reasonable to say with the proliferation of DO schools boasting averages of 3.3 and 23 it is time for a change. 21 out of 120 allopathic schools are either stand alone or within a health sciences university out of osteopathic schools only MSU-COM, NYCOM, NSU-COM, OSU-COM, OU-COM and UNTHSC-COM are within a major research institution. With the rise of RVU-COM, a for profit school, perhaps it is time to look back to Flexner and see the error in accrediting these sort of schools.

More goes into being a physician than a high GPA and 30+ MCAT. Allopathic schools may have higher averages, but that does not mean the distribution is clustered around the mean. Considering the number of DO students that successfully complete allopathic residencies with the entering stats you note proves that admission stats at a certain cut-off point are not the best predictor of medical school performance and have little to no effect predicting the quality of care one provides as a physician. (FYI: Recent academic performance prior to entering medical school is actually a better predictor of success in medical school.)

The USMLE and COMLEX test completely different areas of learning, regardless of the content, and the instruction at DO schools is geared towards the COMLEX. After you take both of them, let us know what you think.

The problem with the proliferation of DO schools goes to the quality of the clinical education that students will receive because there is nowhere to place them. Medical education is aquired during clinicals.

I agree with your observations on the need for more research at DO schools and for-profit medical education.

 

[FutureCTDoc]

More goes into being a physician than a high GPA and 30+ MCAT. Allopathic schools may have higher averages, but that does not mean the distribution is clustered around the mean. Considering the number of DO students that successfully complete allopathic residencies with the entering stats you note proves that admission stats at a certain cut-off point are not the best predictor of medical school performance and have little to no effect predicting the quality of care one provides as a physician. (FYI: Recent academic performance prior to entering medical school is actually a better predictor of success in medical school.)

The USMLE and COMLEX test completely different areas of learning, regardless of the content, and the instruction at DO schools is geared towards the COMLEX. After you take both of them, let us know what you think.

The problem with the proliferation of DO schools goes to the quality of the clinical education that students will receive because there is nowhere to place them. Medical education is aquired during clinicals.

I agree with your observations on the need for more research at DO schools and for-profit medical education.

Granted that more things go into being a physician than just intelligence, however the more, the merrier. It is exceedingly difficult to gauge someone's bedside manner, clinical acumen or skill with a blade. However when given the choice it is best to gather the most intelligent candidates as these are difficult to measure.

While many osteopathic physicians complete ACGME residencies, so do FMGs. Where there is a dearth of DOs is at the MGH's and the Jules Stein's of the world. Remember that community IM in podunk and MGH are both ACGME.
When it comes to third and fourth year residencies, there are few schools with university hospitals. There are several DO schools where their students are scattered on the four winds and are sent to places of dubious quality. Also many schools don't offer great training in subspecialties for electives i.e. ophto, CT, CV, NS as they lack an affiliated fellowship or residency. The USMLE and COMLEX nominally measure basic science knowledge with the COMLEX having OMM as well on it. A student in osteopathic medical school should be able to sit for the USMLE and pass it as easily as the COMLEX.

The issue of the proliferation of DO schools is that all the top candidates are already picked off. Students with 3.5+ and 30+ go allo, students just below that mark go to the top osteopathic schools and to top Caribbean schools SGU boasts a 3.3 26 http://www.sgu.edu/about-sgu/medical-students-enrollment-statistics.html
Students who miss these marks will go to the lower tier DO schools. New schools are generally competing in the lower bracket for less academically gifted students.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Granted that more things go into being a physician than just intelligence, however the more, the merrier. It is exceedingly difficult to gauge someone's bedside manner, clinical acumen or skill with a blade. However when given the choice it is best to gather the most intelligent candidates as these are difficult to measure.

While many osteopathic physicians complete ACGME residencies, so do FMGs. Where there is a dearth of DOs is at the MGH's and the Jules Stein's of the world. Remember that community IM in podunk and MGH are both ACGME.
When it comes to third and fourth year residencies, there are few schools with university hospitals. There are several DO schools where their students are scattered on the four winds and are sent to places of dubious quality. Also many schools don't offer great training in subspecialties for electives i.e. ophto, CT, CV, NS as they lack an affiliated fellowship or residency. The USMLE and COMLEX nominally measure basic science knowledge with the COMLEX having OMM as well on it. A student in osteopathic medical school should be able to sit for the USMLE and pass it as easily as the COMLEX.

The issue of the proliferation of DO schools is that all the top candidates are already picked off. Students with 3.5+ and 30+ go allo, students just below that mark go to the top osteopathic schools and to top Caribbean schools SGU boasts a 3.3 26 http://www.sgu.edu/about-sgu/medical-students-enrollment-statistics.html
Students who miss these marks will go to the lower tier DO schools. New schools are generally competing in the lower bracket for less academically gifted students.

OH my God. FutureCT, stop. You honestly do not know what the hell you are talking about. Are you referring to Jules Stein at UCLA? Have you ever been there???? You are seriously talking about 3/4 years, proliferation of DO schools, the COMLEX vs the USMLE, and matriculation stats, yet you were sitting in a high school classroom, reading MacBeth a year ago? Jesus. Your diatribe about stats determining who goes Allo, Osteo, and Caribbean really show a lack of knowledge, which comes from a lack of experience. Stating that anyone would naturally take the huge risk of high attrition, expense, and the risk of not matching (69% DO in ACGME vs 48% FMG in ACGME, without DO residencies to fall back on), simply because SGU CLAIMS their matriculation stats are 3.3/26, shows a detrimental lack of understanding of this process and an unfounded concentration on GPA/MCAT numbers. You really have no idea how much state schools, location, URM, etc, comes into play ... and it's because you are a freshman in college. Worry about that for now. Concentrate on doing well in your undergrad classes/experiencing college, not these issues. You are so far over your head, it's absurd.

 

[Daedra22]

You really have no idea how much state schools, location, URM, etc, comes into play ... and it's because you are a freshman in college. Worry about that for now. Concentrate on doing well in your undergrad classes/experiencing college, not these issues. You are so far over your head, it's absurd.

It's the backwards SDN hierarchy, Jagger... you forget... Freshman > Students accepted to med school > Med Students > Residents, in regards to knowledge and experience.

*sarcasm*

 

[JaggerPlate]

It's the backwards SDN hierarchy, Jagger... you forget... Freshman > Students accepted to med school > Med Students > Residents, in regards to knowledge and experience.

*sarcasm*

Hahaha, apparently.

 

[allopurinol]

The USMLE and COMLEX nominally measure basic science knowledge with the COMLEX having OMM as well on it. A student in osteopathic medical school should be able to sit for the USMLE and pass it as easily as the COMLEX.

Again, let us know your thoughts on these exams when you have taken both of them. They test knowledge in completely domains of Bloom's Taxonomy. As far as FMG's, they are only eligible for allopathic residencies. FYI, I'm a DO and a resident at a university-based ACGME program who only applied DO because I had a sincere interest in OMM. I had many classmates in medical school who had acceptances to allopathic schools also and chose DO. It appears that you have spent a considerable amount of time on osteopathic medical education, which puts you in good position to make an informed about your choice of medical school.

 

[FutureCTDoc]

OH my God. FutureCT, stop. You honestly do not know what the hell you are talking about. Are you referring to Jules Stein at UCLA? Have you ever been there???? You are seriously talking about 3/4 years, proliferation of DO schools, the COMLEX vs the USMLE, and matriculation stats, yet you were sitting in a high school classroom, reading MacBeth a year ago? Jesus. Your diatribe about stats determining who goes Allo, Osteo, and Caribbean really show a lack of knowledge, which comes from a lack of experience. Stating that anyone would naturally take the huge risk of high attrition, expense, and the risk of not matching (69% DO in ACGME vs 48% FMG in ACGME, without DO residencies to fall back on), simply because SGU CLAIMS their matriculation stats are 3.3/26, shows a detrimental lack of understanding of this process and an unfounded concentration on GPA/MCAT numbers. You really have no idea how much state schools, location, URM, etc, comes into play ... and it's because you are a freshman in college. Worry about that for now. Concentrate on doing well in your undergrad classes/experiencing college, not these issues. You are so far over your head, it's absurd.

From an objective data point of view, we have GPA and we have MCATs. GPAs are massively inflated and we are left with the MCAT. Yes, there are other factors but because these are subjective not objective we can't quantify them in any meaningful way. My comment about the Caribbean was merely to demonstrate that the average of a Big 4 school was better than several DO schools, personally I would never go Caribbean. Secondly you do recognize that the FMG stat refers to all FMGs. People out of English, Irish, Big 4 and Australian schools match at a much better rate. It doesn't matter whether you're an attending or a freshman in college to point there are issues with the glut of new DO schools. If you don't think that there will be, that is the willful suspension of rationality and reasonableness. I feel like Casandra on this board. When will people recognize that these new schools which are primarily of lower quality will have an overall negative effect on their residencies?
Regarding the COMLEX and the USMLE, the basic science years with the exception of OMM for DOs are the same. Why do 13% more DOs fail the USMLE than US MDs? This is a legitimate issue that is being brushed aside. This is a minimum competency exam.
Secondly, you should cease the ad hominem attacks, it is unbecoming. Please, tell me why objective stats shouldn't play the largest role in determining who gains admissions to medical school. There is no good reason to admit students with 3.3s and 24s on the basis of subjective factors.
The fact that 69% of DOs match is horrible. This is a self-selecting group of students who presumably did well enough to opt out of the osteopathic match.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

From an objective data point of view, we have GPA and we have MCATs. GPAs are massively inflated and we are left with the MCAT. Yes, there are other factors but because these are subjective not objective we can't quantify them in any meaningful way. My comment about the Caribbean was merely to demonstrate that the average of a Big 4 school was better than several DO schools, personally I would never go Caribbean. Secondly you do recognize that the FMG stat refers to all FMGs. People out of English, Irish, Big 4 and Australian schools match at a much better rate. It doesn't matter whether you're an attending or a freshman in college to point there are issues with the glut of new DO schools. If you don't think that there will be, that is the willful suspension of rationality and reasonableness. I feel like Casandra on this board. When will people recognize that these new schools which are primarily of lower quality will have an overall negative effect on their residencies?
Regarding the COMLEX and the USMLE, the basic science years with the exception of OMM for DOs are the same. Why do 13% more DOs fail the USMLE than US MDs? This is a legitimate issue that is being brushed aside. This is a minimum competency exam.
Secondly, you should cease the ad hominem attacks, it is unbecoming. Please, tell me why objective stats shouldn't play the largest role in determining who gains admissions to medical school. There is no good reason to admit students with 3.3s and 24s on the basis of subjective factors.
The fact that 69% of DOs match is horrible. This is a self-selecting group of students who presumably did well enough to opt out of the osteopathic match.

Some people CHOOSE to match into an osteopathic residency and not test the allopathic waters. Osteopathic students have to sit for the COMLEX THEN the USMLE.

I'm going to have to echo what others are saying, get some life experience then come preach to us.

In another note...are you even planning on looking at Osteopathic residencies or is your lame Freshman schedule not even enough to keep you occupied you need to come to these boards to stay entertained?

 

[FutureCTDoc]

Some people CHOOSE to match into an osteopathic residency and not test the allopathic waters. Osteopathic students have to sit for the COMLEX THEN the USMLE.

I'm going to have to echo what others are saying, get some life experience then come preach to us.

In another note...are you even planning on looking at Osteopathic residencies or is your lame Freshman schedule not even enough to keep you occupied you need to come to these boards to stay entertained?

Per the advice of a professor at the COM, I will be applying for allopathic residencies and using Resolution 42.

 

[cliffhuxtableDO]

Ultimately, each individual's success in education comes down to them self. I don't see the productivity in pointing out statistics of one school vs. another. Someone could go to Harvard and not put in the work and not match, while a student at Ross could rock the boards.

This is the second time this week I've used this quote but "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics".

As for FutureCTDoc: You probably want to start now in regards to learning how to respect your elders based on age as well as status in the medical community if you plan on getting any where.

 

[Laryngophed]

From an objective data point of view, we have GPA and we have MCATs. GPAs are massively inflated and we are left with the MCAT. Yes, there are other factors but because these are subjective not objective we can't quantify them in any meaningful way. My comment about the Caribbean was merely to demonstrate that the average of a Big 4 school was better than several DO schools, personally I would never go Caribbean. Secondly you do recognize that the FMG stat refers to all FMGs. People out of English, Irish, Big 4 and Australian schools match at a much better rate. It doesn't matter whether you're an attending or a freshman in college to point there are issues with the glut of new DO schools. If you don't think that there will be, that is the willful suspension of rationality and reasonableness. I feel like Casandra on this board. When will people recognize that these new schools which are primarily of lower quality will have an overall negative effect on their residencies?
Regarding the COMLEX and the USMLE, the basic science years with the exception of OMM for DOs are the same. Why do 13% more DOs fail the USMLE than US MDs? This is a legitimate issue that is being brushed aside. This is a minimum competency exam.
Secondly, you should cease the ad hominem attacks, it is unbecoming. Please, tell me why objective stats shouldn't play the largest role in determining who gains admissions to medical school. There is no good reason to admit students with 3.3s and 24s on the basis of subjective factors.
The fact that 69% of DOs match is horrible. This is a self-selecting group of students who presumably did well enough to opt out of the osteopathic match.

You used to be a pretty decent poster, but you seemed to have gone off of the deep end. If you aren't happy with the current status of osteopathic medicine, don't attend a D.O. school. I suggest you focus on what you can control and stop berating other schools. You aren't at those schools and you probably won't be, so don't worry about it. I'd like to think that the AdComs know what they are looking for in candidates and choose those students. Would we all like to see those numbers elevated? Sure, most likely. Have some damn good doctors come out of those "low numbered schools?" Absolutely. There is a reason we have to pass standardized tests at every major break. Let NBOME decide who is competent and focus on your own work, then worry about medical school and how the other schools aren't living up to your standards.

 

[FutureCTDoc]

Ultimately, each individual's success in education comes down to them self. I don't see the productivity in pointing out statistics of one school vs. another. Someone could go to Harvard and not put in the work and not match, while a student at Ross could rock the boards.

This is the second time this week I've used this quote but "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics".

As for FutureCTDoc: You probably want to start now in regards to learning how to respect your elders based on age as well as status in the medical community if you plan on getting any where.

This is not an issue based on status or age although that is really a straw man. The issue is being right or wrong. I've been respectfully disagreeing. I honestly have not heard someone use the phrase "respect your elders" since I was 5. That's really a cover for go along with whatever is said and fall victim to group think. Refute my facts don't attempt to disparage me. Up to this point no one has truly demonstrated a better way of choosing applicants other than GPA and MCAT.

While it's true a RUSM grad could be out an HMS grad, it doesn't usually happen. Those are aberrations from the norm. This is a large scale issue to discuss it on the individual level would be really impractical.

 

[cliffhuxtableDO]

This is not an issue based on status or age although that is really a straw man. The issue is being right or wrong. I've been respectfully disagreeing. I honestly have not heard someone use the phrase "respect your elders" since I was 5. That's really a cover for go along with whatever is said and fall victim to group think. Refute my facts don't attempt to disparage me. Up to this point no one has truly demonstrated a better way of choosing applicants other than GPA and MCAT.

While it's true a RUSM grad could be out an HMS grad, it doesn't usually happen. Those are aberrations from the norm. This is a large scale issue to discuss it on the individual level would be really impractical.

No it is not impractical. Please tell me how it is an inaccurate statement in regards to each person being responsible for his or her own success. If you are a freshmen as some else pointed out, you really have no business at all even commenting about individual schools, much less entire degree programs.

Jump through some hoops, go through the process, and see where you stand. You very well might end up thankful for a new DO school.

 

[FutureCTDoc]

No it is not impractical. Please tell me how it is an inaccurate statement in regards to each person being responsible for his or her own success. If you are a freshmen as some else pointed out, you really have no business at all even commenting about individual schools, much less entire degree programs.

Jump through some hoops, go through the process, and see where you stand. You very well might end up thankful for a new DO school.

Well I'm thankful for an old DO school, NSU-COM, where I'm in the BS/DO program. From my point of view until there are more residencies and more applicants this push is fool hardy. There are about 3,000 DO PGY-1 Slots of which about half fill. The first thing is to improve and increase the number of these. There are 17 PGY-2 Ophtho slots in the DO match. That works out to 1 per every 235 graduates. The quality of osteopathic spots is highly variable and they often times can not attract enough high quality attendings. The majority of unfilled spots are in unpopular areas. However as more allo schools open this will put severe pressure on ACGME residencies and will force more DOs into Osteopathic residencies in less desirable fields. There is one osteopathic CT fellowship. There are zero ophthalmic fellowships, no pathology residencies, no rad onc, no PM&R pain management fellowships and the list goes on.
Please tell me why my points regarding the fact there already too many DO schools is wrong.

 

[Daedra22]

Well I'm thankful for an old DO school, NSU-COM, where I'm in the BS/DO program. From my point of view until there are more residencies and more applicants this push is fool hardy. There are about 3,000 DO PGY-1 Slots of which about half fill. The first thing is to improve and increase the number of these. There are 17 PGY-2 Ophtho slots in the DO match. That works out to 1 per every 235 graduates. The quality of osteopathic spots is highly variable and they often times can not attract enough high quality attendings. The majority of unfilled spots are in unpopular areas. However as more allo schools open this will put severe pressure on ACGME residencies and will force more DOs into Osteopathic residencies in less desirable fields. There is one osteopathic CT fellowship. There are zero ophthalmic fellowships, no pathology residencies, no rad onc, no PM&R pain management fellowships and the list goes on.
Please tell me why my points regarding the fact there already too many DO schools is wrong.

If you believe this, then why did you go BS/DO...? Or did I miss your explanation for that part?

 

[FutureCTDoc]

If you believe this, then why did you go BS/DO...? Or did I miss your explanation for that part?

I went BS/DO because I like the COM here. We have strong affiliations and I feel based on my interests, I will be well served by going here. As a future osteopathic student, I feel an investment in my future profession. Osteopathic medicine is at a cross roads, there are pushes and pulls in various directions. From the accreditation of new COMs to the issue of for profit schools it has become increasingly clear that the times are a changin', I just hope that COCA will come to its senses before this expansion sews the seeds of osteopathic medicine's destruction. If things continue to get worse I will contemplate allopathic medicine.

 

[cliffhuxtableDO]

I wish I would've known about opportunities such as your when I was applying to college. Just be happy you've got it!

 

[JaggerPlate]

Before I even start to respond to your rant, let me clarify a few things:

1. You don't know what you are talking about. Let me be very clear about that ... you do not know what you are talking about. You can look up every statistic in the world, study trends, whatever else, but your experience is just that, which in the real world ... adds up to zero. The reason why you are reacting so harshly to these well known issues with DO expansion demonstrates this very point.

2. You have, what, 1 semester of college under your belt, and you are trying to tell medical students in these forums how the medical community works, what their STEP exams are comprised of, and the issues involved with their degree??? I think not. How serious would you take a freshman in high school who came onto the forums and started to argue the technical points of NOVA's BS/DO program simply based on what they had read in the pamphlets? As someone who has researched, applied, interviewed, and was accepted ... you'd tell them to shut the hell up. Just the same way someone who has WORKED in some of the institutions you were speaking about earlier, has been on these boards for 2 years, has applied, interviewed, been accepted, and will matriculate in the Fall is telling you to shut up.

Now ... on to your points

we are left with the MCAT. Yes, there are other factors but because these are subjective not objective we can't quantify them in any meaningful way.

We cannot objectively quantify fluctuations in the MCAT in any meaningful way??? I beg to differ. Compare states with smaller population average matriculation MCAT to those of private counterparts? Compare URM average matriculation MCAT to non-URM MCAT. Compare matriculate MCAT scores at DO schools built before a certain year ... you will see trends, and they will not be as pretty as you want. The point is, as I stated before, scores are not cut and dry. I guarantee, you will see low URM allo numbers compared to DO numbers. I GUARANTEE you will see state schools with much, much smaller numbers compared to private counterparts. ETC. It is not a system to easily quantify, and they are significant. What does it tell us .... it is not easy to say above X score goes here, below Y score goes here. There are huge overlaps, that can be easily traced to a variety of factors. Also, harking back to my original mantra ... you are still probably 3 years away from taking this exam, I cannot believe I am arguing this point.

My comment about the Caribbean was merely to demonstrate that the average of a Big 4 school was better than several DO schools

Noob mistake # 100 ...trusting any statistic you see out of a Caribbean school. These schools are notorious of fudging numbers to make things seem more positive. Read up about their 'match lists,' you'll find people held back, matching on multiple tries, technicalities, etc. Plus, that number is still on par with the DO average (with a lower GPA might I add), which is brought down by several lower DO averages.

Secondly you do recognize that the FMG stat refers to all FMGs. People out of English, Irish, Big 4 and Australian schools match at a much better rate.

Of course. However, people who are non-US IMGs/FMGs are usually physicians who have completed a residency in their own country and now have to complete a different residency here to practice (or something of that variation). Again, it isn't cut and dry, and they usually match 'better,' but it is because of other circumstances. If it was simply a student from England vs a student from SGU straight out of school, the student from SGU would probably actually match better due to PD's familiarity with SGU (in some IM/FP field, this isn't derm, NS, etc were talking about here).

It doesn't matter whether you're an attending or a freshman in college to point there are issues with the glut of new DO schools. If you don't think that there will be, that is the willful suspension of rationality and reasonableness. When will people recognize that these new schools which are primarily of lower quality will have an overall negative effect on their residencies?

It does matter whether you are an attending or a freshman in college. A freshman in college can analyze trends, read things online, and listen to other freshman in college ... an attending has a minimum of 10 years experience above what you have now. If you can objectively tell me that these two people are able to analyze a situation equally ... then we really cannot even have this discussion.

Regarding the COMLEX and the USMLE, the basic science years with the exception of OMM for DOs are the same. Why do 13% more DOs fail the USMLE than US MDs? This is a legitimate issue that is being brushed aside. This is a minimum competency exam.

I don't find this overtly shocking. The DOs are responsible for passing COMLEX, technically nothing else. Many DOs probably study for COMLEX and take USMLE just in case, or without putting any other effort other than their COMLEX studying. DO COMLEX passrates, for the most part, are fantastic, and since there are no stats on MDs taking COMLEX ... me taking the liberty and assuming that many DOs take USMLE for various reasons without putting 110% into it is just as valid as you taking the liberty that 13% don't pass based on a deficiency in knowledge.

Again, do you have any experience whatsoever with either of these exams? Are you certain that the science on the exams is identical? Are you certain they are minimum competency exams?

Secondly, you should cease the ad hominem attacks, it is unbecoming.

Ad hominem attack:

thesis: God does not exist.

fallacy:

Jim is an idiot and he also believes in God.
Since Jim is an idiot, God does not exist.

Our argument:

You are a freshman in college and have no experience whatsoever with anything related to medical school, the medical field, et al.

Because you are a freshman in college and have no experience whatsoever with anything related to the medical field ... I assert that you are a freshman in college and have no knowledge related to the medical field.

Not quite ad hom.

And please, know that I am not trying to personally attack you ... but someone of your age with your experience telling medical students, residents, etc, what is happening in the medical field is absurd.

There is no good reason to admit students with 3.3s and 24s on the basis of subjective factors.

The minimum MCAT and GPA to advance to the DO portion of the BS/DO program at NOVA is a 3.0/24. Would you argue that because of your merits in high school, you have demonstrated that even if you are below the 3.3/24 you quote (ie a 3.0/24), that you have still earned the right to a medical degree? Or would you give up your spot based on the fact that you have matriculated based on other, non-subjective, factors???

Again, AAMC and AACOMAS also disagree with you, otherwise, asking for URM status, ECON status, M/F status, personal statement, volunteering experiences, etc, is completely worthless.

The fact that 69% of DOs match is horrible. This is a self-selecting group of students who presumably did well enough to opt out of the osteopathic match.

This again, demonstrates to me that you are not aware of the overlap and workings between the DO and MD match (ie being pulled from one by matching another, unofficial matching, and how the ACGME counts applicants who are pulled from the MD match).

So what is the bottom line here ....

Future, I'm not saying that the problems you've brought up don't exist, I'm not even saying they aren't relevant/important ... what I am saying is that it is absurd for someone this early in the game to make such bold statements and essentially tell medical students, residents, etc, what is up. I guarantee that as you move down the road, you will see these problems solved with half measures, new problems arise, and old ones not seem important. You'll learn to roll with the punches, you'll learn the sky isn't falling, and you'll learn the best way to reach people with regards to these problems, and more importantly, you'll figure out how to avoid them. No one has a crystal ball. Again, not trying to insult you (nor will I reply to these arguments anymore), not trying to tell you that you aren't mature and intuitive for commenting on these issues, but I AM telling you to focus on schoolwork, enjoy yourself, and try to defer to those further ahead in the game at this moment.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

I went BS/DO because I like the COM here. We have strong affiliations and I feel based on my interests, I will be well served by going here. As a future osteopathic student, I feel an investment in my future profession. Osteopathic medicine is at a cross roads, there are pushes and pulls in various directions. From the accreditation of new COMs to the issue of for profit schools it has become increasingly clear that the times are a changin', I just hope that COCA will come to its senses before this expansion sews the seeds of osteopathic medicine's destruction. If things continue to get worse I will contemplate allopathic medicine.

I thought you were a student at some big Ivy leage school. You are a student at NOVA for God sake !!!
For people who are not living in South FL and dont know about NOVA: Their undergrad education is a diploma mill like KEISER or ITT ect (It is like a technical school). I just cant believe a freshman undergrad NOVA student is talking about DO schools standard... Man !!! I got to let some of my friends see this your posts man. NOVA...NOVA... I just cant believe that.
On a lighter note: I am not in a position to comment about their graduate education cause I do know a lot about it. However, from what I have heard, their grad education is not bad.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

I went BS/DO because I like the COM here. We have strong affiliations and I feel based on my interests, I will be well served by going here. As a future osteopathic student, I feel an investment in my future profession. Osteopathic medicine is at a cross roads, there are pushes and pulls in various directions. From the accreditation of new COMs to the issue of for profit schools it has become increasingly clear that the times are a changin', I just hope that COCA will come to its senses before this expansion sews the seeds of osteopathic medicine's destruction. If things continue to get worse I will contemplate allopathic medicine.

I thought you were a student at some big Ivy leage school. You are a student at NOVA for God sake !!!
For people who are not living in South FL and dont know about NOVA: Their undergrad education is a diploma mill like KEISER or ITT ect (It is like a technical school). I just cant believe a freshman undergrad NOVA student is talking about DO schools standard... Man !!! I got to let some of my friends see this your posts. NOVA...NOVA... I just cant believe that.
On a lighter note: I am not in a position to comment about their graduate education cause I do know a lot about it. However, from what I have heard, their grad education is not bad.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

This is not an issue based on status or age although that is really a straw man. The issue is being right or wrong. I've been respectfully disagreeing. I honestly have not heard someone use the phrase "respect your elders" since I was 5. That's really a cover for go along with whatever is said and fall victim to group think. Refute my facts don't attempt to disparage me. Up to this point no one has truly demonstrated a better way of choosing applicants other than GPA and MCAT.

While it's true a RUSM grad could be out an HMS grad, it doesn't usually happen. Those are aberrations from the norm. This is a large scale issue to discuss it on the individual level would be really impractical.

I thought you were a student at some big Ivy leage school. You are a student at NOVA for God sake !!!
For people who dont live in South FL and dont know about NOVA, Their undergrad education is a diploma mill like KEISER or ITT ect (It is like a technical school). I just cant believe a freshman undergrad NOVA student is talking about DO schools standard... Man !!! I got to let some of my friends see this your posts. NOVA...NOVA... I just cant believe that.
On a lighter note: I am not in a position to comment about their graduate education cause I do know a lot about it. However, from what I have heard, their grad education is not bad

 

[BestDoctorEver]

This is not an issue based on status or age although that is really a straw man. The issue is being right or wrong. I've been respectfully disagreeing. I honestly have not heard someone use the phrase "respect your elders" since I was 5. That's really a cover for go along with whatever is said and fall victim to group think. Refute my facts don't attempt to disparage me. Up to this point no one has truly demonstrated a better way of choosing applicants other than GPA and MCAT.

While it's true a RUSM grad could be out an HMS grad, it doesn't usually happen. Those are aberrations from the norm. This is a large scale issue to discuss it on the individual level would be really impractical.

I thought you were a student at some big Ivy leage school. You are a student at NOVA for God sake !!!
For people who dont live in South FL and dont know about NOVA, Their undergrad education is a diploma mill like KEISER or ITT ect (It is like a technical school). I just cant believe a freshman undergrad NOVA student is talking about DO schools standard... Man !!! I got to let some of my friends see this your posts. NOVA...NOVA... I just cant believe that.
On a lighter note: I am not in a position to comment about their graduate education cause I do know a lot about it. However, from what I have heard, their grad education is not bad

 

[bioman2006]

.

 

[Siggy]

We got your point the first time. No need to post it four times.

Sometimes the forum software hangs up and doesn't show that you've posted, even if you did. So you hit the button again and the screen doesn't change. Eventually it unsticks, but by that time you've posted the same post a few dozen times. It happens to everyone who posts semi-frequently here.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Sometimes the forum software hangs up and doesn't show that you've posted, even if you did. So you hit the button again and the screen doesn't change. Eventually it unsticks, but by that time you've posted the same post a few dozen times. It happens to everyone who posts semi-frequently here.

YUP. I don't know about anyone else ... but SDN has been running horrible for me lately. Freezing, multiple posting, won't load, etc.

 

[Laryngophed]

YUP. I don't know about anyone else ... but SDN has been running horrible for me lately. Freezing, multiple posting, won't load, etc.

x2

 

[JaggerPlate]

x2

Yeah, I was thinking about PMing Lee or something (he's like the godfather of SDN ... and a DO), but didn't know if it would help. Maybe they need to upgrade or something.

 

[Laryngophed]

Yeah, I was thinking about PMing Lee or something (he's like the godfather of SDN ... and a DO), but didn't know if it would help. Maybe they need to upgrade or something.

Another mod said they were changing out a server sometime in the near future, so maybe that's the problem or will at least make the problem better. I was pretty pumped to see this was the brainchild of a DO. Sadly, I don't see him around our parts too much and I think he'd be another good resource for us to have access to here.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Another mod said they were changing out a server sometime in the near future, so maybe that's the problem or will at least make the problem better. I was pretty pumped to see this was the brainchild of a DO. Sadly, I don't see him around our parts too much and I think he'd be another good resource for us to have access to here.

A server upgrade would make sense and be gooood! Yeah, I think Lee is a pretty busy guy. Rumor has it that the site was originally started as a resource for pre-DO, DO med students, residents, and attendings ... and kind of just morphed into SDN from there.

 

[RevDoc]

Jagger - so how old is sdn? I wondered who the man behind the curtain was who ran this beast

 

[group_theory]

Jagger - so how old is sdn? I wondered who the man behind the curtain was who ran this beast

A little over 10 years old. There are are a few old dinosaurs still around. Believe it or not, for a while at the very beginning, there were more posts in Pre-Osteopathic than Pre-Allopathic.

 

[Siggy]

Yea, but the signal to noise ratio is always higher over here than in pre-allo.

 

[Limvostov]

Indiana is a perfect example of a state that is hard to go to medical school in because IU is the only school there, not to mention it is a public school. I gaurantee the people who apply to IU and don't get in will be the vast majority of people who take the seats at the new D.O. school. This is a good thing for the state and its residents.

Couldn't agree more. Being from Oregon there is only OHSU, and well, if you don't get in there (OHSU is a high ranking school for an only state medical school and UW up in Washington hits that high GPA/MCAT category as well) it's off to another state. I'm really glad to see PNWU and Western Lebanon coming to the NW (which pretty much includes AK, MT, WY, and ID since they have no medical schools) becasue out of the NW states OHSU and UW used to be it.

 

[GraceEuphoria]

According to WVSOM their average was a 3.36 and 24 MCAT, LMU-DCOM has an average MCAT of 24 and 3.4 cum GPA. WCU-COM has a 23 and 3.4. This is per the admissions office at these schools. All of which are non-integrated.

First, I am not so sure we should give much credibility to numbers at WCU, which has accepted not even half of their very first class yet...

Second, you say you want the average GPA to be more at a 3.5 like allopathic schools. A 3.4 isn't good enough, but a 3.5 is? Don't get me wrong, getting at 3.4 up to a 3.5 takes some good effort, but REALLY?

Third, I don't know what they do at your school, but my GPA has never been massively inflated. My grade was my grade, no curves, no inflation. So if my GPA isn't quite as pefect as others, at least I know it's real.

I long for the day when this stops being as big of an issue as it is. It amazes me that someone so hung up on numbers is so adamantly pursuing osteopathic school, KNOWN for being about more than just the numbers during the application process. To me, the MCAT is one thing. You have multiple opportunities if you so choose to raise your score. GPAs, however, are immutable after a certain point. Once you reach a certain number of credit hours, it hardly shifts more than a couple tenths, if that. Point being, if you mess up at all, you're screwed. Yeah, it's a personal issue for me. I transferred twice in college and dealt with a lot of things that really affected my schoolwork. However, I rose above these things and thanks to a lowly school like DCOM (who by the way, will likely be in the forefront of osteopathic schools one day based on their current progress), I get to pursue my dreams. And I happen to think I'm going to make a pretty damn good doctor, thankyouverymuch.

 

[HopefulDoc1984]

First, I am not so sure we should give much credibility to numbers at WCU, which has accepted not even half of their very first class yet...

Second, you say you want the average GPA to be more at a 3.5 like allopathic schools. A 3.4 isn't good enough, but a 3.5 is? Don't get me wrong, getting at 3.4 up to a 3.5 takes some good effort, but REALLY?

Third, I don't know what they do at your school, but my GPA has never been massively inflated. My grade was my grade, no curves, no inflation. So if my GPA isn't quite as pefect as others, at least I know it's real.

I long for the day when this stops being as big of an issue as it is. It amazes me that someone so hung up on numbers is so adamantly pursuing osteopathic school, KNOWN for being about more than just the numbers during the application process. To me, the MCAT is one thing. You have multiple opportunities if you so choose to raise your score. GPAs, however, are immutable after a certain point. Once you reach a certain number of credit hours, it hardly shifts more than a couple tenths, if that. Point being, if you mess up at all, you're screwed. Yeah, it's a personal issue for me. I transferred twice in college and dealt with a lot of things that really affected my schoolwork. However, I rose above these things and thanks to a lowly school like DCOM (who by the way, will likely be in the forefront of osteopathic schools one day based on their current progress), I get to pursue my dreams. And I happen to think I'm going to make a pretty damn good doctor, thankyouverymuch.

I had a 28 MCAT, 3.6 GPA and a masters from an ivy league university. For some reason I didn’t get into my state school, which was IU. Nobody can tell me that I wasn't a good enough candidate and that I didn’t have what it takes to become a great doctor. If you are from a state like Indiana where there is only one med school, your future is at the discretion of some admissions committee, who quite frankly, only care about numbers and meeting their demographic quota, instead of looking at the whole candidate. I choose DCOM because of how they prepare their students for the future. I have no doubt that DCOM will be atop the ranks very soon. I think the new school in Indy is a great opportunity for students from Indiana, especially qualified candidates that were, for whatever reason, not given a chance to succeed at IU.

 

[Limvostov]

If you are from a state like Indiana where there is only one med school, your future is at the discretion of some admissions committee, who quite frankly, only care about numbers and meeting their demographic quota, instead of looking at the whole candidate. I choose DCOM because of how they prepare their students for the future. I have no doubt that DCOM will be atop the ranks very soon. I think the new school in Indy is a great opportunity for students from Indiana, especially qualified candidates that were, for whatever reason, not given a chance to succeed at IU.

So true, states with only one school really only seem to care about numbers to boost stats. Experience, research, personality, ect. just don't even matter if the numbers don't push them higher than the year before.

 

[chrisski]

IU has been cutting spots in recent years and has completely canceled(to my knowledge) a big expansion plan that was supposed to go through. Rather than build an entire new school, wouldn't it have made more sense to continue with the proposed expansion of IU medical school. I could be wrong, but I think this would give it at least 50+ more spots than it has now. Along that note, I think Marion is a terrible choice. Anyone of moderate intelligence who lives in Indiana would never consider Marion for UG. So why build a medical school there. I don't know what characteristics a school must have, but certainly Purdue, Notre Dame, Depauw, Wabash, Vincennes, Butler, etc are more qualified. It just does not seem logical. Hmmmm.

 

[Lynndaleena]

Along that note, I think Marion is a terrible choice. Anyone of moderate intelligence who lives in Indiana would never consider Marion for UG. So why build a medical school there. I don't know what characteristics a school must have, but certainly Purdue, Notre Dame, Depauw, Wabash, Vincennes, Butler, etc are more qualified. It just does not seem logical. Hmmmm.

I agree. When I heard that was the choice for the school I just thought there are soooo many other schools, even in or around Indianapolis (Butler, UIndy; DePauw is close) that would have been better. I don't know a lot about the school (including the reasons stated above I never even considered it) but I do know the location is very pretty... maybe that's why they chose it....

On a side note do you think if they had chosen Wabash it'd have to be a men's only med school (ha ha, just kidding, bad joke I know)

 

[chrisski]

i agree. When i heard that was the choice for the school i just thought there are soooo many other schools, even in or around indianapolis (butler, uindy; depauw is close) that would have been better. I don't know a lot about the school (including the reasons stated above i never even considered it) but i do know the location is very pretty... Maybe that's why they chose it....

On a side note do you think if they had chosen wabash it'd have to be a men's only med school (ha ha, just kidding, bad joke i know)

LOL......On a completely unrelated rant... I don't believe that this will promote the creation of quality doctors in any way. A small portion of applicants that get turned down to IU med school would probably make good doctors. However, I cannot imagine these people, especially the ones who grew up in Indiana, would consider an osteopathic degree from Marion. I'm not saying its fair, I'm simply stating its the way it is. Marion is not a good school. However, what will happen is the large portion of applicants to IU med school who are not qualified(of which there are suprisingly quite a few here at IU) will be given a new hope. These people, with GPAs of 3.5 and under, who probably couldn't even get into IUs super competive Nursing BS program, will now become doctors. It frustrates me.....Sorry for the rant, but this could have been such a good oportunity for many qualified Indiana studetns. Now, I have a gut feeling that it will not be. Thats just my opinon thought and I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

 

[JaggerPlate]

LOL......On a completely unrelated rant... I don't believe that this will promote the creation of quality doctors in any way. A small portion of applicants that get turned down to IU med school would probably make good doctors. However, I cannot imagine these people, especially the ones who grew up in Indiana, would consider an osteopathic degree from Marion. I'm not saying its fair, I'm simply stating its the way it is. Marion is not a good school. However, what will happen is the large portion of applicants to IU med school who are not qualified(of which there are suprisingly quite a few here at IU) will be given a new hope. These people, with GPAs of 3.5 and under, who probably couldn't even get into IUs super competive Nursing BS program, will now become doctors. It frustrates me.....Sorry for the rant, but this could have been such a good oportunity for many qualified Indiana studetns. Now, I have a gut feeling that it will not be. Thats just my opinon thought and I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

At least you're being scientific about it! You have a good point about dumb people becoming doctors ... it is annoying.

 

[chrisski]

At least you're being scientific about it! You have a good point about dumb people becoming doctors ... it is annoying.

Never deny the gut.