Indiana to open new Osteopathic Medical School

[ChiDO]

These graduates are ALLOWED to choose an ACGME residency which may not be the case in the future with expanding Allo classes. LCME is going to protect it's own first and it could come down to ACGME telling DO students to go play in their own sandbox.

I dont' disagree with you at all. That is why I was saying that the AOA better be working on this now, so in 10 years we don't have a big problem. FMG/IMGs are going to feel the squeeze first and then DOs.

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[DrBowtie]

I dont' disagree with you at all. That is why I was saying that the AOA better be working on this now, so in 10 years we don't have a big problem. FMG/IMGs are going to feel the squeeze first and then DOs.

Agree

 

[MSUSpartan642]

~4500 Graduates
~2500 DO Spots

Thus, there are about 2000 more graduates then spots available. Those 2000 graduates, at the moment, are choosing ACGME residencies.

Wait. Am I missing something? 4500 graduates but only 1433 of them are filled. Less than 35% of DO students go into AOA residencies (seriously)? Then with 2,000 or so going to ACGME positions, we would still have ~1,000 students not matching anywhere.


Funded: 2435
Filled: 1433
Open: 1002

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

I think it will be interesting to see how it all pans out. I still have a hard time seeing a residency take a US MD who scored a 208 on their USMLE with no ECs versus a US DO who scores a 232 on the USMLE with research in the given residencies field.

I guess if something like this happens it can only be better for AOA residencies.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

Wait. Am I missing something? 4500 graduates but only 1433 of them are filled. Less than 35% of DO students go into AOA residencies (seriously)? Then with 2,000 or so going to ACGME positions, we would still have ~1,000 students not matching anywhere.


Funded: 2435
Filled: 1433
Open: 1002

Most of the stats you can find on the interweb have neither the DO students who scramble into AOA residencies nor the DO grads who scramble into ACGME residencies.

 

[WNT Signaling]

If you went into the DO profession for research, I think you're going to be disappointed. In fact, I think NOVA had the most active research (and most cash) out of all the DO schools.

I'm going to post numbers from the NIH's RePORT database so that if anyone searches for this info in the future they can find it
http://report.nih.gov/award/trends/FindOrg.cfm



Fiscal year 2008; numbers are only for the school of Osteopathic Medicine, and not for the entire institution (i.e. other departments such as arts and science or pharmacy are not included in these figures)

University of North Texas $12,064,917
Michigan State: $3,886,947
UMDNJ-DO: $2,007,539
Ohio University: $644,339
PCOM: $616,570
University of New England: $551,411
VCOM: $475,062
Western: $433,252
Touro-MI: $385,352
NOVA: $363,159 (and possibly another $313,000 which was classified under 'research units')
Kansas City Osteopathic: $362,383
A.T. Still: $205,541
Des Moines University: $194,025
Midwestern: $193,277

If I didn't list it, I couldn't find it in RePORT, or in the case of Oklahoma State, data for the School of Osteopathic Medicine was not specifically enumerated


Take these numbers for what you want, but here are funding figures for some of the least research heavy allopathic schools (once again, figures are strictly for the Schools of Medicine)

Mercer: $1,209,306
Southern Illinois: $4,171,785
Meharry: $21,395,550
Morehouse: $25,084,179
LSU-Shreveport: $12,013,987
Howard: $13,043,308
Albany: $11,463,823
New York Medical College: $17,987,753
Drexel: $23,127,814
University of Central Florida (just opened): $5,505,477

 

[RevDoc]

That is why I chose Nova. That and a longer track record. I think COCA is irresponsible to accredit new medical schools at small colleges and universities. There are several major research universities without medical schools. Small schools seldom have the facilities, endowment or the political abilities of the large schools. There should also be a residency neutral requirement i.e. you don't exacerbate the shortage. If anything we should be pushing for more public DO schools only OUCOM, OSU-COM and MSU-COM are public and Nova receives state support. In addition there is a need for more specialty slots not just as PGY-2 but as IM fellowship i.e. interventional, GI and an end to TRI before option 3 i.e. derm. We need to deal with these issues first.

You forgot UNT-HSC as well.

I also find it strange that in the talk about the REALLY good DO schools that UNT (TCOM) isnt the first one mentioned, and in fact isnt even listed? That goes for OSU-COM as well. These are two great schools. TCOM consistantly rejects MD matriculant stats, and the faculty at OSU are exemplary.

 

[Daedra22]

You forgot UNT-HSC as well.

I also find it strange that in the talk about the REALLY good DO schools that UNT (TCOM) isnt the first one mentioned, and in fact isnt even listed? That goes for OSU-COM as well. These are two great schools. TCOM consistantly rejects MD matriculant stats, and the faculty at OSU are exemplary.

I think that OSU-COM and TCOM are frequently forgotten about by out of state students. Both of those schools accept an overwhelming majority of in-sate applicants, so the out-of-staters tend to act is if they don't exist. I think that TCOM and OSU-COM are great models for future DO schools, with their solid curricula, research opportunities and board scores.

Anyway, I'm of the mind that more DO graduates are good for the profession. More of us make us more commonplace, more easily recognized, and hopefully more accepted among those who still see differences between the degrees.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I'm going to post numbers from the NIH's RePORT database so that if anyone searches for this info in the future they can find it
http://report.nih.gov/award/trends/FindOrg.cfm



Fiscal year 2008; numbers are only for the school of Osteopathic Medicine, and not for the entire institution (i.e. other departments such as arts and science or pharmacy are not included in these figures)

University of North Texas $12,064,917
Michigan State: $3,886,947
UMDNJ-DO: $2,007,539
Ohio University: $644,339
PCOM: $616,570
University of New England: $551,411
VCOM: $475,062
Western: $433,252
Touro-MI: $385,352
NOVA: $363,159 (and possibly another $313,000 which was classified under 'research units')
Kansas City Osteopathic: $362,383
A.T. Still: $205,541
Des Moines University: $194,025
Midwestern: $193,277

If I didn't list it, I couldn't find it in RePORT, or in the case of Oklahoma State, data for the School of Osteopathic Medicine was not specifically enumerated


Take these numbers for what you want, but here are funding figures for some of the least research heavy allopathic schools (once again, figures are strictly for the Schools of Medicine)

Mercer: $1,209,306
Southern Illinois: $4,171,785
Meharry: $21,395,550
Morehouse: $25,084,179
LSU-Shreveport: $12,013,987
Howard: $13,043,308
Albany: $11,463,823
New York Medical College: $17,987,753
Drexel: $23,127,814
University of Central Florida (just opened): $5,505,477

DO schools aren't research institutions ... it's no shocker. However, The gap that ranges from 1 to 25 million difference in the example is pretty intense. IE, there are still MD schools out there that don't research much.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Does all the money from research have to come from NIH??? Because when I went to NOVA, I could have sworn the dean said they had 25 mill for research.



I also wanted to throw in an aside here, and I know I'm going to get flammed for this ... but oh well. Research institution =/= great education. Period. They have the funds, they have the teachers etc, but let me tell you what that equates you ... big NIH money pulls in really, really good scientists. It does NOT necessarily pull in good professors who want to teach. I went to a big, very research heavy undergrad (I tried to look up how much bank they pull in right now on google, but I'm very tired so my search sucked), and I can't count on both hands how many professors I had that were there at that school strictly to research and only taught when they were forced to, in order to keep researching. You know why I know this ... they would say so! Needless to say, I didn't like these professors. They were scatterbrained, always unavailable, and seemed to care very little. Some of my favorite professors were ones who did very little research and really came there to teach. Now, I'm not saying this is a rule or that research universities don't attract great teachers, or that great researchers can't teach ... I'm just saying it was my personal example, and another reason I really have zero interest in attending a big research university AGAIN.

 

[bioman2006]

.

 

[WNT Signaling]

Does all the money from research have to come from NIH??? Because when I went to NOVA, I could have sworn the dean said they had 25 mill for research.



I also wanted to throw in an aside here, and I know I'm going to get flammed for this ... but oh well. Research institution =/= great education. Period. They have the funds, they have the teachers etc, but let me tell you what that equates you ... big NIH money pulls in really, really good scientists. It does NOT necessarily pull in good professors who want to teach. I went to a big, very research heavy undergrad (I tried to look up how much bank they pull in right now on google, but I'm very tired so my search sucked), and I can't count on both hands how many professors I had that were there at that school strictly to research and only taught when they were forced to, in order to keep researching. You know why I know this ... they would say so! Needless to say, I didn't like these professors. They were scatterbrained, always unavailable, and seemed to care very little. Some of my favorite professors were ones who did very little research and really came there to teach. Now, I'm not saying this is a rule or that research universities don't attract great teachers, or that great researchers can't teach ... I'm just saying it was my personal example, and another reason I really have zero interest in attending a big research university AGAIN.

Besides the NIH, funding comes from organizations like the American Heart Association, the March of Dimes, the American Cancer Society, etc, but I find it hard to believe that the lion's share of their funding comes from non-NIH sources.

I completely agree that going to an institution with crazy amounts of research does not mean that the quality of teaching is equally as fantastic. However, attending an institution with research provides medical students and residents/fellows with more opportunities to pursue research. The reason why this is important can be tied-back to one of my pet peeves with osteopathic medicine: DO's state (and rightly so!) that osteopathic medicine is different from chiropractic medicine because osteopaths practice evidence based medicine. If osteopathic schools do not emphasize research, how are they ensuring that the next generation of osteopathic physicians will be able to perform the necessary basic and clinical research needed to sustain evidence based medicine. Yeah, clinical research isn't that difficult to do/plan, and thus doesn't require too much training, but basic research, which is an integral part of evidence based medicine, takes significantly more training.

If I sound like a jerk, that wasn't my intention and I apologize

 

[creativename]

What's everyone's view of the rapid expansion of Osteopathic medical schools and our future careers? Is there a huge risk that these moves will devalue our degrees?

Please clarify.
Devalued like say if you were part of a dying profession that wasn't taken seriously? Or would it be more like you becoming part of a larger population size as a result of a push towards popularizing osteopathic physicians to where MD and DO are instantly recognized as equivalents by the layman? Because it's all in how you look at it. From my point of view this whole watering down assertion boils down to vanity. As if retracting the number of schools would instantly jettison the osteopathic profession into elite status, is that the mode of reasoning? It may seem to cheapen the degree to those frat type personalities but osteopathic medicine has celebrated a long tradition of stagnancy when it comes to expansion so honestly its time to blossom has been long overdue. One school in every state is what I say. If the investors have the proposal/project strategically worked out then let them start the school and leave it up to the faculty and students to determine the fate of the school's success. In the end, I trust COCA's judgment.

 

[creativename]

Besides the NIH, funding comes from organizations like the American Heart Association, the March of Dimes, the American Cancer Society, etc, but I find it hard to believe that the lion's share of their funding comes from non-NIH sources.

I completely agree that going to an institution with crazy amounts of research does not mean that the quality of teaching is equally as fantastic. However, attending an institution with research provides medical students and residents/fellows with more opportunities to pursue research. The reason why this is important can be tied-back to one of my pet peeves with osteopathic medicine: DO's state (and rightly so!) that osteopathic medicine is different from chiropractic medicine because osteopaths practice evidence based medicine. If osteopathic schools do not emphasize research, how are they ensuring that the next generation of osteopathic physicians will be able to perform the necessary basic and clinical research needed to sustain evidence based medicine. Yeah, clinical research isn't that difficult to do/plan, and thus doesn't require too much training, but basic research, which is an integral part of evidence based medicine, takes significantly more training.

If I sound like a jerk, that wasn't my intention and I apologize

You're not a jerk. Research just doesn't appeal to everyone. And just because someone gets to spend 2 months with a PI as a medical student doesn't mean they're going to be that much more prepared to contribute to the scientific community. "If only I had two more months, I could have finally found the cure to <blank> disease. Now I'm dying from it. Oh the irony! {croak}" That's how Dustin Hoffman would have died in Outbreak had his character not spent those two seemingly insignificant months doing a mentorship research program at his medical school.

Research, a great way to spend your MS1/MS2 intermission summer. It can be rewarding in some aspects but disillusioning in others. If you spend more than a summer doing research you'll come to find that these people are on a grant writing hamster wheel. Constantly plugging away at the same theories, never making any concrete breakthroughs. Not to mention the fact that good funding is primarily hinged on the facilities at your practicing institution. Sort of one of those "the rich get richer" schemes the NIH cooked up.

Anyways, it is something to consider for those who want to do research with their DO degree; you know instead of treating pesky, attention stealing patients. Not to say that both aren't possible, but if you wind up working at an institution that has PhD's available to partner with and you have enough free time because you're in a sub-specialty that affords you that luxury and your mind needs activity to pass the doldrums, maybe that'll be the time to learn your way around the lab bench.

And as far as clinical research not requiring as much training in relation to basic research. It's all what you make of it. You have to consider the nature of the problem or question being addressed and how in-depth you want to take your discoveries - ie. how many possible variables you want to account for. Ongoing research is such because it's all sheer speculation and has no application without some truly dedicated intelligent minds guiding it into some kind of clinically practical manifestation. But yes in many respects clinical research is the cornerstone of evidence based medicine and it entails no solid experimental component for making claims to support the correlative data it espouses. It commits drive-by discoveries, popping statistical data in your keister. A fly by night fact factory. Neither are very good whatever they are but you get my drift. There's no scientific heart there. Nothing to add substance to my cherished college textbooks that made it seem like all knowledge in the observable universe had been wrangled.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Besides the NIH, funding comes from organizations like the American Heart Association, the March of Dimes, the American Cancer Society, etc, but I find it hard to believe that the lion's share of their funding comes from non-NIH sources.

I completely agree that going to an institution with crazy amounts of research does not mean that the quality of teaching is equally as fantastic. However, attending an institution with research provides medical students and residents/fellows with more opportunities to pursue research. The reason why this is important can be tied-back to one of my pet peeves with osteopathic medicine: DO's state (and rightly so!) that osteopathic medicine is different from chiropractic medicine because osteopaths practice evidence based medicine. If osteopathic schools do not emphasize research, how are they ensuring that the next generation of osteopathic physicians will be able to perform the necessary basic and clinical research needed to sustain evidence based medicine. Yeah, clinical research isn't that difficult to do/plan, and thus doesn't require too much training, but basic research, which is an integral part of evidence based medicine, takes significantly more training.

If I sound like a jerk, that wasn't my intention and I apologize

You didn't sound like a jerk at all ... I totally understand your points!

 

[defibme]

If you read the article, it seems 3 hospitals already jumped on board in regards to being affiliated with the school and even offering buildings/land to build the school. Hopefully this leads to implementation of residency programs within those hospitals.

Also, the UI dean said there would collaboration and sharing of resources (this just might be a good political phrase) (ie. their new sim lab).

FYI- The appropriate initials for the Big 10 state university you are referring to is IU, as in Indiana University, not UI as in University of Indiana (which doesnt exist).

Sorry...just a pet peeve from an IU graduate and IU resident

 

[tuffguy13]

Please clarify.
Devalued like say if you were part of a dying profession that wasn't taken seriously? Or would it be more like you becoming part of a larger population size as a result of a push towards popularizing osteopathic physicians to where MD and DO are instantly recognized as equivalents by the layman? Because it's all in how you look at it. From my point of view this whole watering down assertion boils down to vanity. As if retracting the number of schools would instantly jettison the osteopathic profession into elite status, is that the mode of reasoning? It may seem to cheapen the degree to those frat type personalities but osteopathic medicine has celebrated a long tradition of stagnancy when it comes to expansion so honestly its time to blossom has been long overdue. One school in every state is what I say. If the investors have the proposal/project strategically worked out then let them start the school and leave it up to the faculty and students to determine the fate of the school's success. In the end, I trust COCA's judgment.

It has a lot to do with supply and demand. Yes, there is obviously an undersupply and whether you want the expansion or not, it's already happening. As many people have pointed out in this thread is that the expansion is happening TOO FAST. The speed at which expansion is occurring brings up the issue of devaluation because the schools are popping up like franchises and it appears from an outside view that the goal is to crank out as many physicians as possible instead of perhaps taking it one step at a time and making sure that the new batch of schools maintains the current level of educational quality. From statistics I've observed online, newer schools' MCAT and GPA averages tend to float around lower levels than the more established schools; numbers don't tell the whole story but it is a cause for concern.

It's hardly a "frat mentality" when looking out for your educational investment. The fact that this educational path will take over 10 years of our lives and burden us with six figures of debt automatically makes these questions justifiable. It would be wise for the physician profession to not overextend itself like the law profession for example, which resulted in an oversupply of lawyers. This is not meant to be a shot at lawyers either, I'm simply stating an observation; I have a great respect for the hard work and dedication of many in the law profession. However, there are obvious tiers of law school and those from upper tiers have much easier times finding employment and as well as higher compensation than those from lower tier schools. In fact, in an article I saw, there appeared to be a double-peaked bell curve representing lawyers' typical salaries, one was very high which identified mostly top-tier law grads, and the lower peak was the majority of other lawyers from lower tier schools who did not earn nearly as much as their top-tier counterparts.

Rapid expansion of a degree program won't necessarily affect the degree in such a way, but it's always a possibility. If the tiered structure happens in osteopathic medical education, it may become harder for many DO's to find employment in desirable locations; once again, it is possible but not necessarily a certainty.

I thought the purpose of the forum is to raise questions and concerns on current events, as opposed to asking loaded questions and making snide remarks. I respect your opinions on school expansion, but there's no excuses for lacking class.

 

[GraceEuphoria]

Me personally? I have anxiously been waiting the anticipation of such an announcement, though I am surprised to hear it is Marian that is taking on such a venture. I am a lifelong resident of IN and a current resident of Indianapolis who has never had any desire to apply to IU for a number of reasons. One major reason is my sincere support of DO schools (yeah yeah the philosophy isn't that important anymore blah blah blah- it is to me, so get over it). I would have LOVED for this school to have opened up this fall so I would not have had to apply out of state and move further away than necessary. Indiana has SO many people trying to get into med school every year that are more than qualified to matriculate, but they desperately want to stay and be trained in their state so they just keep reapplying to IU. As for Marian being the spot, I'm actually quite excited to attend a school affiliated with a small university (oh no, mine is affiliated with a religion too! ) that isn't research based. That's ok right??

As for all the drama and controversy, I shall plead the apathy card. Is there not a doctor shortage? Why yes, from what I understand, there is a well-known shortage. Is opening new schools in states that desperately need them the first step to fixing this shortage? Seems reasonable to me. Perhaps there are roadblocks that I do not see and honestly, I got somewhat sick of reading all the posts griping about yet another med school. Is this a subconscious personal issue with the potential devaluing of a med school acceptance or is it really about future residency spots? Maybe people are genuinely concerned about the residency spots, but does that just indicate a lack of confidence in one's ability to obtain one of those very spots? I know I know, after spending all the time and money on a medical degree, one would like to have a job right? Those people might then understand and appreciate what it's like to graduate with some other degree in the current economy and have no job prospects, huh? These are all very obnoxious statements and assertions on my part- I'll be the first to admit that. However, sometimes I think we all just need to chill the heck out, focus on actually making it to the match ourselves and leave these issues to the people who are responsible for dealing with them. By all means, be proactive and write letters to those in high places. Make sure the issue is being addressed! But for the love of God just let the people who might actually be excited about such a development enjoy their potential shot at becoming a successful physician.

Ok, I'm done. I hope I haven't offended anyone too much. I understand the concerns people have. I just think things work out in the end and people should quit being so darn pessimistic about it all (and this is coming from the ultimate pessimist).

 

[ChiDO]

FYI- The appropriate initials for the Big 10 state university you are referring to is IU, as in Indiana University, not UI as in University of Indiana (which doesnt exist).

Sorry...just a pet peeve from an IU graduate and IU resident

My sincere apologies.

 

[allopurinol]

I think it will be interesting to see how it all pans out. I still have a hard time seeing a residency take a US MD who scored a 208 on their USMLE with no ECs versus a US DO who scores a 232 on the USMLE with research in the given residencies field.

I guess if something like this happens it can only be better for AOA residencies.

It appears to be happening in my "DO-friendly" primary care residency this interview season,.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

It appears to be happening in my "DO-friendly" primary care residency this interview season,.

Your PD is a bonehead then...sounds real "DO-friendly"

 

[allopurinol]

Your PD is a bonehead then...sounds real "DO-friendly"

Actually, my PD is a very nice person, and name-calling is not warranted. This not about my PD, but about the ominous times ahead for the new DO-students with the unchecked growth of DO-schools. I say "DO-friendly" because my program has traditionally had numerous DO in its ranks. But my program participates in the Visiting Student Application Service (VSAS), the service used by allopathic medical schools to schedule visiting rotations. Though not all allopathic schools use it yet, it is gaining momentum. Osteopathic schools and their students are not eligible. Paper applications can still be done, but don't be too optimistic because they did not work for any DO students who wanted to rotate at my program.
This program was my top choice and I am 100% convinced that I matched there because I rotated there as a visiting student, and received LOR's from attendings there. This is no longer an option for DO students. As a DO student, you will have to network a little more than allopathic students for ACGME residencies. A big part of that network is being shut off. People who are known tend to be the ones that get the interview invitations. The few DO students that were invited to interview did not rotate there, but they knew people in the program who put in good words for them.
DO programs are heavily-dependent on allopathic schools for 4th year elective rotations and post-graduate training. I have grave concerns about the quality of clinical education and post-graduate educational opportunities for new DO-students.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Actually, my PD is a very nice person, and name-calling is not warranted. This not about my PD, but about the ominous times ahead for the new DO-students with the unchecked growth of DO-schools. I say "DO-friendly" because my program has traditionally had numerous DO in its ranks. But my program participates in the Visiting Student Application Service (VSAS), the service used by allopathic medical schools to schedule visiting rotations. Though not all allopathic schools use it yet, it is gaining momentum. Osteopathic schools and their students are not eligible. Paper applications can still be done, but don't be too optimistic because they did not work for any DO students who wanted to rotate at my program.
This program was my top choice and I am 100% convinced that I matched there because I rotated there as a visiting student, and received LOR's from attendings there. This is no longer an option for DO students. As a DO student, you will have to network a little more than allopathic students for ACGME residencies. A big part of that network is being shut off. People who are known tend to be the ones that get the interview invitations. The few DO students that were invited to interview did not rotate there, but they knew people in the program who put in good words for them.
DO programs are heavily-dependent on allopathic schools for 4th year elective rotations and post-graduate training. I have grave concerns about the quality of clinical education and post-graduate educational opportunities for new DO-students.

The VSAS situation is new, and I think will be worked out in the future. After looking into it more, I really don't think it is a way to shut DO students out, and I think the situation will find equilibrium in a few years. Do you know for a fact that DO students couldn't rotate through their with paper applications?

 

[allopurinol]

The VSAS situation is new, and I think will be worked out in the future. After looking into it more, I really don't think it is a way to shut DO students out, and I think the situation will find equilibrium in a few years. Do you know for a fact that DO students couldn't rotate through their with paper applications?

I can't speak for other programs, but at my program, I know for a fact that students who registered through VSAS received rotations and no DO students will be rotating there this year. I'm certain that at least one the few DO interviewees wanted to rotate there, by the way the conversation went during the applicant lunch, but it did not happen.
Think about it from the program's perspective: applications delivered electronically directly to the program and can be accessed from anywhere, or snail mail that has to go through multiple hands before it gets to the person it needs to get to and can only be accessed when the person is physically there and read when the person allots time to read mail-what is more efficient? How many electronic applications were already received in the interim? A paper application does not replace VSAS, and may even do more damage than good because it creates extra work for the program.
VSAS may or may not be worked out in the later for future DO students, but for current 4th year osteopathic students who may have been interested in my program, the future is too late for them.
Again, the AOA-COCA really needs to stop the unchecked growth of DO schools.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

If your PD is accepting an MD over a DO of superior quality just because of the degree (in primary care no less) what would you call him? Also if this same program is described as "DO-friendly" I don't really see a problem with my first statement. (Maybe he isn't a bonehead, so much as making boneheaded decisions)

Yes there are residency concerns that need to be addressed but if your residency is actually doing this, they are just simply doing what they can to degrade their own program.

 

[yollom]

If your PD is accepting an MD over a DO of superior quality just because of the degree (in primary care no less) what would you call him? Also if this same program is described as "DO-friendly" I don't really see a problem with my first statement. (Maybe he isn't a bonehead, so much as making boneheaded decisions)

Yes there are residency concerns that need to be addressed but if your residency is actually doing this, they are just simply doing what they can to degrade their own program.

Seems like this loops back to the original subject of the thread, because AOA-COCA is opening a glut of new schools, who is to say what the baseline of quality is for rotating students? Personally, I think that the DO degree is, or should be considered, equal to the MD - so much so that they should probably be one degree. At the the established DO schools, this is almost certainly the case - but as the AOA continues to expand seemingly without concern to the academic and clinical environment that these students are in, who knows what the future holds. The former CEO of KCUMB certainly wasn't overly optimistic.

And although this is more likely a paperwork issue than a medical partisanship issue, who is to say that with increased dilution of the degree what the future holds for DO's being accepted to MD rotations and residencies? Whatever it means, the AOA has expanded outside of the bounds of its own residencies... which it only fills to about 49%. The confusing thing to me is that all you hear from the AOA is the "DO difference," but in practice most of the students ship off to ACGME residencies, under MD program directors, where they are trained alongside MDs.

I'm going to an MD school, but heavily researched DO schools along the way. I'm not trying to troll on the osteo boards, but I think there are definitely some issues - for both DO's and MD's - to a huge amount of expansion. The LCME is doing it too - albeit more conservatively than the AOA. The real danger is that the whole idea of the standardized medical education could disappear - the idea that if you go to a med school (any medical school) and pass your boards you are a fully qualified physician with an unlimited license. What you end up with too many schools opening is a tiered system within the degree - i.e. a DO from PCOM is better than a DO from New Indiana Med School, and then all of the sudden the medical degree - MD and DO - is the new JD or MBA.

Even more conspiratorially, who is to say that this VSAS system isn't a system to do exactly what it did in the above example? I just recommend that people tread carefully when looking at what schools to attend, MD or DO, and that as future and current doctors (again, MD or DO) we aggressively keep acreditation boards accountable during this expansion. It could be the end of days when we could say "whatever school you get into is a good one."

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

Again, I agree there are issues with the way schools are popping up without an increase of residencies. I too have thought about "What happens if a medical degree turns into a law degree", and a degree truly does become a measuring stick.
I also know that SDN can be a big blackhole of negativity, from the downfall of healthcare because of Obama to D.O. residency certifications becoming obsolete.
I have no doubt that allopurinol, (if nothing more than looking at his pessimistic post history), is being overly dramatic about his residency. There could be any number of issues as to why there aren't many D.O.'s rotating through and I'm sure VSAS is partially to blame. I doubt though D.O.'s with ~25 point higher USMLE scores aren't getting interviews compared to their M.D. brethren with sub par scores. And if this actually is happening I have no doubt it is an anomaly and this residency is just shooting itself in the foot.

I enjoyed your blog a chunk of your story parallels mine. I see you think the D.O. degree will be gone in 20 years, do you think everything will merge?

 

[DrHoosier]

This is great news. Now IU isn't the only choice for staying in state for people like me.

 

[yollom]

I enjoyed your blog a chunk of your story parallels mine. I see you think the D.O. degree will be gone in 20 years, do you think everything will merge?

Thanks for the compliment, I'm just trying to write down everything I've learned along the way while I can still remember it, and before I start school in August and don't care anymore. Its sometimes hard to write a blog because you have to balance on a very narrow line of credibility - especially as I am not even in school yet. Ironically, since I'm not yet studying my brains out in med school, I have a lot of time to read and contribute more to my blog than stuff like "class sucks" and similar topics. Since I currently teach at a college I have access to a ton of journals, the entire National Library of Medicine, and an army of librarians so bored out of their minds that they jump at my every request. It is absolutely fascinating to read about the history of medicine and medical education in the U.S. and it is becoming a major interest for me.

To answer you question - I definitely think, based on reading a ton and some first hand and second hand experience, that at some point in the near future there is going to be a merger.

The current generation of leaders in the AOA are products of a generation that truly operated as a separate medical profession - separate schools, separate residencies, and separate hospitals. At this point, osteopathic residencies are struggling to the point that 43 to 49 percent are filled YTY, and almost every osteopathic hospital is closed or merged with a larger group. The only part of osteopathy that is growing is the number of doctors with DO behind their name instead of MD. And these DO's don't even, in the vast majority, believe that there is a reason to use OMM in practice (don't have the citation but you can look this article up on Pubmed). I came up with my 20 year timeframe because when most of these people leave the presidencies of major organizations and schools, things are going to change. I think 20 years is the extreme bound, it will probably happen sooner - the current presidents of schools like DMU, KCUMB (formerly), and TCOM are already pushing for change.

Again, I always want to point out that I have nothing personal against DO's or most DO schools... I just see some concerning things going on (for profit medical schools - not seen since the Flexner report, a medical school opening at a bible school down south...yikes! - bible schools undergrad degrees aren't even regionally accredited in most cases - is that the academic environment where you want a med school?) and think it is wise that people really do their due diligence before committing to any school.

By the way, if you haven't already read "The DO's" by Gevitz it is a must.

 

[HopefulDoc1984]

Thanks for the compliment, I'm just trying to write down everything I've learned along the way while I can still remember it, and before I start school in August and don't care anymore. Its sometimes hard to write a blog because you have to balance on a very narrow line of credibility - especially as I am not even in school yet. Ironically, since I'm not yet studying my brains out in med school, I have a lot of time to read and contribute more to my blog than stuff like "class sucks" and similar topics. Since I currently teach at a college I have access to a ton of journals, the entire National Library of Medicine, and an army of librarians so bored out of their minds that they jump at my every request. It is absolutely fascinating to read about the history of medicine and medical education in the U.S. and it is becoming a major interest for me.

To answer you question - I definitely think, based on reading a ton and some first hand and second hand experience, that at some point in the near future there is going to be a merger.

The current generation of leaders in the AOA are products of a generation that truly operated as a separate medical profession - separate schools, separate residencies, and separate hospitals. At this point, osteopathic residencies are struggling to the point that 43 to 49 percent are filled YTY, and almost every osteopathic hospital is closed or merged with a larger group. The only part of osteopathy that is growing is the number of doctors with DO behind their name instead of MD. And these DO's don't even, in the vast majority, believe that there is a reason to use OMM in practice (don't have the citation but you can look this article up on Pubmed). I came up with my 20 year timeframe because when most of these people leave the presidencies of major organizations and schools, things are going to change. I think 20 years is the extreme bound, it will probably happen sooner - the current presidents of schools like DMU, KCUMB (formerly), and TCOM are already pushing for change.

Again, I always want to point out that I have nothing personal against DO's or most DO schools... I just see some concerning things going on (for profit medical schools - not seen since the Flexner report, a medical school opening at a bible school down south...yikes! - bible schools undergrad degrees aren't even regionally accredited in most cases - is that the academic environment where you want a med school?) and think it is wise that people really do their due diligence before committing to any school.

By the way, if you haven't already read "The DO's" by Gevitz it is a must.

what medical school opened at a bible school?

 

[Siggy]

Retracted. Geography>me when studying for midterm.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

Thanks for the compliment, I'm just trying to write down everything I've learned along the way while I can still remember it, and before I start school in August and don't care anymore. Its sometimes hard to write a blog because you have to balance on a very narrow line of credibility - especially as I am not even in school yet. Ironically, since I'm not yet studying my brains out in med school, I have a lot of time to read and contribute more to my blog than stuff like "class sucks" and similar topics. Since I currently teach at a college I have access to a ton of journals, the entire National Library of Medicine, and an army of librarians so bored out of their minds that they jump at my every request. It is absolutely fascinating to read about the history of medicine and medical education in the U.S. and it is becoming a major interest for me.

To answer you question - I definitely think, based on reading a ton and some first hand and second hand experience, that at some point in the near future there is going to be a merger.

The current generation of leaders in the AOA are products of a generation that truly operated as a separate medical profession - separate schools, separate residencies, and separate hospitals. At this point, osteopathic residencies are struggling to the point that 43 to 49 percent are filled YTY, and almost every osteopathic hospital is closed or merged with a larger group. The only part of osteopathy that is growing is the number of doctors with DO behind their name instead of MD. And these DO's don't even, in the vast majority, believe that there is a reason to use OMM in practice (don't have the citation but you can look this article up on Pubmed). I came up with my 20 year timeframe because when most of these people leave the presidencies of major organizations and schools, things are going to change. I think 20 years is the extreme bound, it will probably happen sooner - the current presidents of schools like DMU, KCUMB (formerly), and TCOM are already pushing for change.

Again, I always want to point out that I have nothing personal against DO's or most DO schools... I just see some concerning things going on (for profit medical schools - not seen since the Flexner report, a medical school opening at a bible school down south...yikes! - bible schools undergrad degrees aren't even regionally accredited in most cases - is that the academic environment where you want a med school?) and think it is wise that people really do their due diligence before committing to any school.

By the way, if you haven't already read "The DO's" by Gevitz it is a must.

I agree, I think everyone applying to a DO program should read Gevitz's book. I also agree about OMM, it is a dying practice...for the majority of the profession.
I get ooked out about the "for-profit" status of RVU like many as well. In the same thought though I wouldn't call William Carey your typical bible college.

Not to sound cliche, but I truly want to do either rural setting FP or rural setting IM. This is the main thing that has drawn me to Osteopathic medicine is to produce primary care physicians. I feel an Osteopathic school with a possibly semi-rural (obviously not sure 100% where I want to do residency yet) Osteopathic residency will help me meet my goals.

I have no desire to do research nor do I have a desire to be in a big urban town, a town with <50k people would be ideal and the AMA doesn't have a ton of these to offer.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

I believe that he is referring to the topic of this thread.

Since he said south I thought he was talking about William Carey

 

[Cp22kjer]

Yay, another school and no new residency slots.

Wow. It's seriously irresponsible.

And they say it's competitive to match now...

 

[Siggy]

Since he said south I thought he was talking about William Carey

Yea... I edited my post at the same time you posted this. Geography>me day before an exam.

 

[ruiner]

If you read the article, it seems 3 hospitals already jumped on board in regards to being affiliated with the school and even offering buildings/land to build the school. Hopefully this leads to implementation of residency programs within those hospitals.

Also, the UI dean said there would collaboration and sharing of resources (this just might be a good political phrase) (ie. their new sim lab).

I think this is really beneficial for Indiana since they only had 1 medical school. Compare it to IL (next door), which has 8, or Ohio, which has close to 8 I think as well.

I see the students who did not get into UI, go to this school. Thus both school shave like 90% indiana students.

I don't know why but UI really was bugging me. IU.

 

[tuffguy13]

There are 120 MD schools and MORE opening up, is the MD degree being devalued?

I was wondering where this figure came from? I haven't seen it anywhere else; I'm not saying you made it up or anything, I just was looking for a source.

I am aware of the 4 or 5 new MD schools that have opened recently, but 120?

 

[JaggerPlate]

I was wondering where this figure came from? I haven't seen it anywhere else; I'm not saying you made it up or anything, I just was looking for a source.

I am aware of the 4 or 5 new MD schools that have opened recently, but 120?

He's saying that there are 120 current MD schools and like 4-5 opening up.

 

[tuffguy13]

Wow, read that one too fast. LMAO

 

[JaggerPlate]

Wow, read that one too fast. LMAO

Hahaha, no harm, no foul.

 

[allopurinol]

If your PD is accepting an MD over a DO of superior quality just because of the degree (in primary care no less) what would you call him? Also if this same program is described as "DO-friendly" I don't really see a problem with my first statement. (Maybe he isn't a bonehead, so much as making boneheaded decisions)

Yes there are residency concerns that need to be addressed but if your residency is actually doing this, they are just simply doing what they can to degrade their own program.

I think you're being a bit presumptious, but I respect your opinion. FYI, my program has a committee that chooses interviewees, consisting of faculty and chiefs, and yes, we have DO faculty.

I have no doubt that allopurinol, (if nothing more than looking at his pessimistic post history), is being overly dramatic about his residency. There could be any number of issues as to why there aren't many D.O.'s rotating through and I'm sure VSAS is partially to blame. I doubt though D.O.'s with ~25 point higher USMLE scores aren't getting interviews compared to their M.D. brethren with sub par scores. And if this actually is happening I have no doubt it is an anomaly and this residency is just shooting itself in the foot.

VSAS is is medical school specific: http://www.aamc.org/programs/vsas/students/start.htm

Speaking as a DO in residency, and as one who has frequent conversations with other DO's, we are all concerned about the rapid expansion of schools and the type of education current students will receive. I am one of the few who takes the time to post here. I'm not anti-DO, and I want what is best for the profession. You may consider my posts "pessimistic," but I consider them reality checks.

I want students to know what they are really getting into. Going to an osteopathic medical school and attending a university-based ACGME program, I see the huge differences in the quality of training between what my DO-school provided and my medical students, the difference being my school did not have the clinical facilities in place to teach all of us. My 4th year was spent playing "catch up." That was not a problem for me because VSAS did not exist, and I was able to go to allopathic hospitals where I was taught medicine. Many entering DO-students will not have that opportunity.

An applicant can look good on paper, but most programs simply want to know if an applicant is someone they would want to work with over X number of years. That is where the audition rotations come in. VSAS limits that for many DO-students.

 

[GraceEuphoria]

Since he said south I thought he was talking about William Carey

I am fairly certain you are correct but WCU is not a Bible school. It's an accredited university just like any other university. It happens to incorporate a general curriculum that requires some religion-based classes I'm sure. Just like any other religiously affiliated university in the country (Loyola anyone?)

Why is their religious affiliation an issue?

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

I am fairly certain you are correct but WCU is not a Bible school. It's an accredited university just like any other university. It happens to incorporate a general curriculum that requires some religion-based classes I'm sure. Just like any other religiously affiliated university in the country (Loyola anyone?)

Why is their religious affiliation an issue?

I am simply interpreting what yollom said. So read his post if you're curious about the "bible college" comment.

It was more of a bible college non-accredidation issue than a religious affiliation issue.

 

[WNT Signaling]

Why is their religious affiliation an issue?

Because there's a big difference between being a Jesuit and an Evangelical institution

 

[Siggy]

Because there's a big difference between being a Jesuit and an Evangelical institution

To be fair, there is a big difference between Jesuit and SDA (i.e. Loma Linda).

 

[JaggerPlate]

They should open up a medical school in conjunction with Hogwarts. I don't see any objections to those beliefs.

 

[WNT Signaling]

To be fair, there is a big difference between Jesuit and SDA (i.e. Loma Linda).

Exactly! How often do you hear people complain about Loma Linda being too religious/strict? On the other hand, how often do you hear the same complaints for Loyola, Georgetown, Saint Louis University, New York Medical College, and Creighton? If you're turned-off by the religiousness, don't apply there. But if COCA wants to accredit schools with mission statements to serve underserved areas, then they should accredit institutions that will not be polarizing, thereby attracting as many applicants as possible

 

[Siggy]

But if COCA wants to accredit schools with mission statements to serve underserved areas, then they should accredit institutions that will not be polarizing, thereby attracting as many applicants as possible

I highly doubt that any restrictions is going to severely limit the applicant pool to any US medical school. Similarly, is there any indication that William Carey will place some sort of moral or religious restriction on their students similar to LLU?

 

[RevDoc]

a medical school opening at a bible school down south...yikes! - bible schools undergrad degrees aren't even regionally accredited in most cases - is that the academic environment where you want a med school?) and think it is wise that people really do their due diligence before committing to any school.

OUCH yollum! That is an incredibly irresponsible thing to say - Marion is in fact SACS accreditated, with several science endorsements. I'm not saying they are John Hopkins, but you seem to be slandering them to the equivalent of a 2 room, little house on the prairie type school.

I do agree that there are definitely better suited universities for a medical school from a research standpoint. That said, you'll be hard pressed to find schools with as much community involvement than a school like this - and if the AOA and Indiana is in need of PCPs, especially to serve in underserved areas then this probably factored into the equation.

I respect your opinions, but please look into the school before killing it.

 

[RevDoc]

Because there's a big difference between being a Jesuit and an Evangelical institution

Alright, I know that most people see tools on TV like Pat Robertson, and assume that he is the mouthpiece for Christiandom.

Please, please, please do not relegate all evangelicals to that corner - some of us are nice people who are fairly intelligent and forward thinking.