inspired by another thread: what's considered to be substantial research experience?

[coralfangs]

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"Schools know that a fairly small percentage of the applicants who even claim to have research experience have actually done anything remotely substantive"

eh?

 

[DropkickMurphy]

Most people who have "research experience" were gofers for a grad student and had little if anything to do with the actual research other than facilitating others to actually do the projects through washing glassware, mixing chemicals, etc.

 

[snobored18]

I agree with dropkick, but to answer your question. Substantial research really would be either A. prolonged involvement as a technician (ie doing grunt work, with some individual projects here and there...and giving this I'm being a bit nice) or B. independent work, ie developing a problem that needs to be solved, creating some specific aims that will lead you to finding answer (s) to this problem and lastly carrying out the experiments necessary to reach each of those aims. Not many undergrads get this far in research and most of it is because PIs love to take in young people and give them crappy jobs like washing dishes, making media, running massive PCR reactions or maintaining a colony of model organisms so the grad students can focus on the intelectual side instead of wasting valuable time doing grunt work. This turns many people off to science (and honestly why shouldn't it) and this is all they need to say research isn't for me, thank you I'm headed to medical school. Some people get lucky (being at small school helps) and end up going on to do summer research fellowships and write conduct extensive honors or independent research projects as upper classman. Those are two things that if you completed and have a great reference letter to back it up (and of course can talk about it) would likely be considered "substantial" research experience, as they are independent in nature.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

I have only done one project where it was not my own idea. That was the project that garnered me my first first author credit. From here on out (and I'm currently working on a project, and formulating an idea for a second one for after my transfer) I am doing my own thing as much as I can.

 

[coralfangs]

cool, that's good to know

then i guess mine can be considered as research
basically, a 1yr project course (given credit), the prof told me what she wanted to see, then i came up with my own theory/ideas to go at it (didn't succeed though haha, even she said it was difficult to succeed)
i got worried cuz we don't have any pub on the topic yet 😳

 

[eddie13231]

As others had said, it all depends on the PI. Most "independent" research items that are required for honors, research certification, ect. are simple experiments that can be carried out in a semester. In my field, genetics, this could be a simple complementation test or maybe a new cross of an organism with a new mutant of some type. This type of work is ok but doesn't contribute a lot to the scientific field but can be fun to see the results of real experiments. In our lab, the PI creates all the research experiments for the undergrads and grad students. We conduct the experiments independently (or in groups) and gather data. In most biology research, I assume, is slower than other fields. Results are usually harder to interpert than, say, chemistry. So it takes a while to get a paper out published in a good journal. If you are in a lab, just stick with it. You will get a pub, it just takes a bit of time. Try to convice your PI to do a poster with you. I recently did one and it was a good experience.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

All of my research is clinical or epidemiological research. Bench research bores the hell out of me.

 

[DoctorPardi]

Ok here's my situation:
Starting last summer I began growing vegetables contaminated with lead. I contaminated the soil, doing the parts per million equations myself, then planted the vegetables, then harvested the vegetables, then performed acid-digestion on the vegetables, then sent them off to be tested by a lab which at the time had a better method then I could perform. Ok that is one long run on sentence but that is what I did last year.

This year I have done the same thing, with the same problem, but with better technique and instead of sending my samples off to be tested I will be testing them myself using atomic absorption provided by my university.

So I have a professor who somewhat oversees this research but other than suggesting new techniques etc she plays no role in actually doing the research. I have had other undergrads assist me in my project, but essentially I am the one doing the research. I co-wrote/presented the first paper with a girl who I shared the work with equally. Now I am the only one who will be writing this next paper, with some advice/assistance from my professor.

So is this what most people would call "substantial research" ? It is not medically related, although the point of the research is to find vegetables that are safe for people to grow (and later consume) in their own gardens if they have lead contaminated soil. The first paper was presented at NCUR and later published in their preceeding. (NCUR is the "national conference on undergraduate research) I hope to present the 2nd paper there as well, and if better results are found we (my professor and I) hope to publish in a peer reviewed journal.

Edit: Also note that this research, because of the nature of growing plants and the time involved in acid digestion takes several semesters to complete. I began the first project in june and finished the actual lab work around december. This year I will have 3-4 times the amount of samples and could possibly take well into the spring semester to complete the acid-digestion plus the added AA analysis I will be performing myself.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

What was said:

Ok here's my situation:
Starting last summer I began growing vegetables contaminated with lead.

What was heard:

Ok here's my plan for world domination:
Starting last summer I began growing vegetables contaminated with lead. It shall be know as the Alan Parsons Project.

Pardi, you sick SOB

 

[chewsnuffles]

OK, I agree mainly with what was said
Here's the deal... I did some substantial research, but it was all in colaberation with my PI, and he wants to sit on in until we get the big stuff out later (rightfully so, its a mutagenic screen thats pretty well designed, hi throughput/low work) so what should I do? Should I even ask to write an abstract? I mean, EVENTUALLY I'll get recognition, just not for atleast another year + (the screening will still take 2 PhD students around a year to compleate)

 

[LifetimeDoc]

I understand how everyone feels. I'm a second author on a research project where I had extensive prep, synthesis, and analysis involvement (non-oxygen inorganic synthesis of compounds, purfication, endless hours of NRM analysis, crystalization, etc) but it wasn't my project. I worked with the lab for a year and a half, some for small amounts of research credit and some for summer pay. I ended up being allowed to be second author on the final publication in the major journal for this area in inorganic chemistry.

My question is: is it considered relevant "research" for application purposes in that it was completely about inorganic chemistry, I was second author, it wasn't my intial work, but I was involved as much as any undergraduate is allowed to do so and it was done 11 years ago? 😳 😕

Basically, the experience was an awesome one, I enjoyed it and appreciated the opportunity very much! However, it showed me personally that while I am curious and would be interested in research (from the clinical side, not specifically garnered from this experience), but that I was not interested in "pure" research working on a lab bench.

 

[monkeymeg2]

So wait...if your PI gives you the project it's not considered substantial??

In my current lab, my PI basically told me what class of compounds he wanted me to be in charge of. After that, I searched for all the terpenoids (that was the compound) in the whole genome sequence. There were a total of 17 and from there I mapped the contigs and pinpointed 3 that likely had any real contribution to virulence. I created my own primers and decided which parts of the genes I wanted to render inactive. All the prep work took about 1 month. Now, I am creating knock-out mutants from those 3 genes (we work with fungus), so I can apply them to our plants and check the resulting virulence of the mutants.

To me, that's substantial research...but is it not considered to be so because I didn't come up with the initial idea?

 

[lynn623la]

, purfication, endless hours of NRM analysis, crystalization, etc)

😍 NMR 😍

Do any c-13 or IR's? Any COSY's or NOSY's? I prefer BAPR over C-13, better resolution of peaks.

 

[Compass]

If you're doing something no one else has done, even if it is assigned to you (most of us don't have the brains to think up magical projects at this point, TBH) then I'd think it'd be considered research. Sure, my research might seem really lame compared to other people doing pipette work and stuff, but... I do know what I'm doing. If your mentor told you to take some MEM and mix it with augar for the experiment, you'd do it, but probably have no idea what you're doing. I know exactly what I'm doing, but I have the equivalent of a desk job for a bioinformatics major.

We, as students, aren't expected to come up problems or solutions such as cures to cancer and stuff. Most adcoms probably acknowledge that fact. Lab work, even if you're being told what to do, if you're helping someone do something by actively doing something they could be doing, if it has to do with the data directly, is considered research. IMO, doing elutriation (blood processing and stuff) might be helping people with research, but all you're doing is repeating procedures, not providing for data.

 

[xanthomondo]

😍 NMR 😍

Do any c-13 or IR's? Any COSY's or NOSY's? I prefer BAPR over C-13, better resolution of peaks.

I invented three-dimensional NMR... does that count as substantial?

 

[LifetimeDoc]

😍 NMR 😍

Do any c-13 or IR's? Any COSY's or NOSY's? I prefer BAPR over C-13, better resolution of peaks.

I did mostly proton and phosphorus NMR over varying temperatures to help determine the structure of a catalytic hydride complex. We did some IR, and sent out a purified crystal to another lab. (If I remember this all correctly, it was 11 years ago! lol)

 

[BozoSparky]

when i was a graduate student, we had undergraduates work in our lab. luckily, my advisor was great. they had their "own" project. it was related to the grand scheme, but not, as he would say, "in the critical path" you might think that sounds sucky, but it was great to put lots of responsibility in their hands. our undergrads pulled off some amazing experiments...they were motivated because it was their project and they were not working for another student. while their project was not the holy grail of the laboratory, once they got the ball rolling, we were able to experience some awesome research synergy because of the built-in overlap. they handled almost everything...learning the literature, new techniques, experiencing defeat and success, talking on the phone all day trying to get the right part or chemical... most importantly, we learned from them! that made for a great group dynamic. so i really felt they had a "substantial" research experience. if you are looking for research, try to find something that'll make you a key player! it's a really great experience when that happens. that's what i think the adcoms are fishing for.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

I did mostly proton and phosphorus NMR over varying temperatures to help determine the structure of a catalytic hydride complex. We did some IR, and sent out a purified crystal to another lab. (If I remember this all correctly, it was 11 years ago! lol)

😕 I have no idea what the heck you all are talking about.....


Ah....lab geeks.....God bless you all...you keep me from having to do that type of research...... 👍

 

[LizzyM]

Here's how the schools see it:

1. Academic medicine is a three legged stool: patient care, teaching and research.

2. Schools that want to produce leaders in academic medicine must attract students who are interested in patient care, teaching AND research.

3. Applicants who have been engaged in research prior to admission to medical school are more likely than applicants who have never been engaged in research to pursue research in medical school and beyond.

Therefore, applicants with some research experience are highly desirable (to schools with a mission that fits with statement #2). What the adcom looks for then are people who think that the lab is "fun" or interesting or that research can answer questions that to date have not been answered and that will have some benefit to future generations of scientists and, in the best of worlds, to society. So the question of growing crops in lead contaminated soil is a very interesting one. Even being a scut-puppy in a lab is evidence that you've gotten your feet wet and are open to pursuing a career that will include the laboratory environment. Likewise, clinical and epidemiological research has a place in academic medicine and would be valued by an adcom.

 

[xanthomondo]

Here's how the schools see it:

1. Academic medicine is a three legged stool: patient care, teaching and research.

2. Schools that want to produce leaders in academic medicine must attract students who are interested in patient care, teaching AND research.

3. Applicants who have been engaged in research prior to admission to medical school are more likely than applicants who have never been engaged in research to pursue research in medical school and beyond.

Therefore, applicants with some research experience are highly desirable (to schools with a mission that fits with statement #2). What the adcom looks for then are people who think that the lab is "fun" or interesting or that research can answer questions that to date have not been answered and that will have some benefit to future generations of scientists and, in the best of worlds, to society. So the question of growing crops in lead contaminated soil is a very interesting one. Even being a scut-puppy in a lab is evidence that you've gotten your feet wet and are open to pursuing a career that will include the laboratory environment. Likewise, clinical and epidemiological research has a place in academic medicine and would be valued by an adcom.

What schools are considered academic medical schools?

 

[LizzyM]

Generally the top research schools, as well as any of the schools that are graduating the people who will go on to be NIH funded researchers, department chairs and deans.

Not the schools who are dedicated to producing primary care providers for underserved areas of the state, etc.

 

[chewsnuffles]

Generally the top research schools, as well as any of the schools that are graduating the people who will go on to be NIH funded researchers, department chairs and deans.

Not the schools who are dedicated to producing primary care providers for underserved areas of the state, etc.

wow, not to suck up, but that last one was a great post, clears alot up, thanks

 

[Duchess742]

What was said:



What was heard:



Pardi, you sick SOB

i can't believe nobody commented on this yet! nice one!! 👍

[i think we're a bit too deep in the world of the carbon NMR nerds...]

 

[Duchess742]

1. Academic medicine is a three legged stool: patient care, teaching and research.

that's exactly what i want!

for serious

 

[DoctorPardi]

What was said:



What was heard:



Pardi, you sick SOB

How'd you get that picture of me?!?

On another note, thanks LizzyM for your insight!

 

[DropkickMurphy]

How'd you get that picture of me?!?

It's from the pictures of your graduating class at Evil Medical School.

 

[eddie13231]

I would think that most projects would be given to undergrads. Research is very expensive and doing a project on your own with the PI's funds would be, well, just damn hard. It would be difficult to find a PI who would take you under their wing for your own project. It takes a while just for the student to learn the way of researching and lab protocols, along come up with a novel project along with classes and life. And then to get it approved...ehhhh. I would think if you are in a lab doing any type of work that would be good research work. You would have definately been exposed to the field.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

Research is very expensive

Not necessarily true...that's only true if you're assuming that research must involve lots of equipment and supplies.

It takes a while just for the student to learn the way of researching and lab protocols, along come up with a novel project along with classes and life

If you have a functioning brain you should be able (by the time you're a sophomore or junior) to write basic protocols and proposals. It's not as difficult as many of you would like to believe.