Institutional action that was expunged - disclose or not?

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saxophone4

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Hi All,

About 3 years ago when I was 18 I was caught purchasing alcohol. I was cited for a misdemeanor and my university also opened a conduct file on me. Luckily, my lawyer was able to get the charges dropped as part of a diversion program (though I'm currently running a background check on myself to make sure it's off). A few months before I graduated college I asked the Dean to expunge my conduct record, and he did. I emailed the conduct office about whether I should disclose that I experienced institutional action on my AMCAS app, but they said that even if I did say yes, there is no proof anymore that anything occurred. If a medical school contacted them they would say that I have no conduct record whatsoever. I asked my doctor friend what he thought. He used to serve on a top-10 adcom before he started a fellowship at another top school, and he told me adamantly that I should NOT mention it at all, because medical schools just don't care. Not sure if I buy that though..

I've received some secondaries that ask about whether I have any institutional action on my record. On the AMCAS I entered in "no" for the misdemeanor question and conduct violation, but I'm getting nervous that I may have done the wrong thing. I'm feeling really torn about whether or not I should just say no, or risk them somehow finding out and looking like I lied. What do you think?
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There are tons of threads on here about similar situations...

It seems like you have already made your decision. Are you looking for someone to tell you it's okay to lie on your application?

This is one of those moral calls that your sunday school teacher always told you about. It's your choice. Here are the four situations that can result. It's your job to choose:
-You could say NO and be scot free
-You can say NO and get caught and medical schools will reject you for your dishonesty
-You could say YES and Medical school will be like pshhh whatever
-You could say YES and get 0 acceptances because of this incident
 
The above poster hit the nail on the head. I can go any of these ways
 
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Well I said no on the primary because I was never convicted of a misdemeanor and I also don't have a conduct record. That's the truth. However, I just started receiving my secondaries, and haven't filled any out. They seem to be a little more stringent in how they ask about IA, so I could change the way I respond in these. There's the rub though.. I mean I know that it's a judgement call.. but don't we post on SDN to get guidance and advice?
 
From everything I've ever read, you should always tell the truth. If someone found out that you were covering something up (which is still lying, it's called omission), then you're going to be screwed.

I'm sure people regularly slip through the cracks, however.
 
saxophone4 said:
Well I said no on the primary because I was never convicted of a misdemeanor and I also don't have a conduct record. That's the truth. However, I just started receiving my secondaries, and haven't filled any out. They seem to be a little more stringent in how they ask about IA, so I could change the way I respond in these. There's the rub though.. I mean I know that it's a judgement call.. but don't we post on SDN to get guidance and advice?
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That's what these forums are there for...to ask people about their opinions. It just seemed to me that you had already made your decision and wanted validation.

If I were in your situation, and I was 100% certain that it wasn't on my transcript and I was 100% certain it would never be revealed then I would not disclose that information. It seems in your situation you got lucky that your case was "dismissed".

EDIT:
It is very easy for someone on the outside looking in to tell you to do the "right" thing when they have nothing at stake.
 
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Don't voluntarily offer up any information that could be used against you.
 
To Macsta:

I guess I misinterpreted your first post and got a little defensive, but I was wrong. Thanks for your input.
 
macsta said:
There are tons of threads on here about similar situations...

It seems like you have already made your decision. Are you looking for someone to tell you it's okay to lie on your application?

This is one of those moral calls that your sunday school teacher always told you about. It's your choice. Here are the four situations that can result. It's your job to choose:
-You could say NO and be scot free
-You can say NO and get caught and medical schools will reject you for your dishonesty
-You could say YES and Medical school will be like pshhh whatever
-You could say YES and get 0 acceptances because of this incident
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Possibility 5 (though unlikely, it is the WORST possibility):

-You say NO and they don't discover it. You are admitted. Several years down the line, it is discovered in some way. You are either kicked out with tons of debt (if you're still a student) or your degree gets revoked (as does your license since the MD is a requirement for the license) and you end up with nothing but massive debt and shame.
 
It is rare that schools actually truly expunge the records. If the dean is asked to fill out a certification form, he may have trace records kept somewhere, and be compelled to fill out *yes* as the form often ask have you *ever* been the recipient of IA, even if it has been expunged off your record.
 
What action did the school take? Putting a note in your file and then later throwing it away? I wouldn't consider that an institutional action. Furthermore, in my experience with a single school, alcohol violations such as this are not considered particularly henious and those who report such misbehavior usually get a pass.

Go in peace.
 
LizzyM said:
What action did the school take? Putting a note in your file and then later throwing it away? I wouldn't consider that an institutional action. Furthermore, in my experience with a single school, alcohol violations such as this are not considered particularly henious and those who report such misbehavior usually get a pass.

Go in peace.
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What you are not disclosing is that, these people who report any sort of IA get put into different pile for special review. This often means that these candidates are now disadvantaged because they are often the last one looked at - hence last ones to consider for interview.
 
MedAdComMD said:
What you are not disclosing is that, these people who report any sort of IA get put into different pile for special review. This often means that these candidates are now disadvantaged because they are often the last one looked at - hence last ones to consider for interview.
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Is this separate pile for students who specifically have an IA on their record? Or is it for anyone who has any kind of charges (like misdemeanors) on their record?
 
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Tappinfool66 said:
Is this separate pile for students who specifically have an IA on their record? Or is it for anyone who has any kind of charges (like misdemeanors) on their record?
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At my school criminal and IA are mixed together - and we only meet once several weeks or so to review this stack. So if you are complete in July with an IA application, you will not be touched until at least August, after the committee have decided whether to weed you out or not.
 
As long as it is in the past and there aren't other red flags from alcohol use, it won't be a big deal to schools (wasn't when I applied). Just disclose it and mention what you've done to ensure you won't cause them problems as a medical student. PM me if you want help explaining this stuff on applications :)
 
People with IAs do get looked at and they do get interviews and they do get offers. Being early or late is a big deal at sdn but being late, IRL, is not the kiss of death.

That said, I'm not sure the OP had to report an IA. And as for the crazy music2doc comment about losing one's license.... How likely is it that a 28 year old gentleman with a license to practice medicine would have his license revoked because he failed to disclose at the age of 22 that he had attempted to buy beer at age 18 and that charges brought against him at that time were dropped.
 
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At LizzyM,

I received what's called a "warning/censure" at my school, which is basically a note saying that I violated the code of conduct and shouldn't do it again. I also wrote a reflection essay on why what I did was wrong, and that was pretty much it - no suspension, academic probation, or anything like that. I would be super relieved if that doesn't constitute IA at all!
 
Sorry to say but a "warning/centure" and being required to write an essay sounds like an institutional action. It will slow down consideration of your application but it shouldn't hurt your chances.
 
It sounds like I should report it.. but I put "No" on my primary AMCAS already. If I say yes and disclose it in my secondaries and explain why I first said no, will that make me look like a complete jerk? Should I apply more broadly now?
 
saxophone4 said:
It sounds like I should report it.. but I put "No" on my primary AMCAS already. If I say yes and disclose it in my secondaries and explain why I first said no, will that make me look like a complete jerk? Should I apply more broadly now?
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Call your school and see what it says on your transcript or order an official transcript for yourself. Your situation could be just an informal slap on the wrist or it could be an official violation. Your description was kind of vague, so it's hard to give you advice.
 
saxophone4 said:
It sounds like I should report it.. but I put "No" on my primary AMCAS already. If I say yes and disclose it in my secondaries and explain why I first said no, will that make me look like a complete jerk? Should I apply more broadly now?
Click to expand...

Call AMCAS. Explain that you didn't realize this was IA. You can lose your license even 30 years down the road for not disclosing this kind of stuff. Do you not have more respect for yourself or your peaceful sleeping time?
 
The purpose of expunging is so that you can answer questions such as "have you ever been convicted of..." as 'NO'.

This is a no-brainer. Don't bring it up.
 
As Lizzy M said, I do not think not disclosing something will get your license taken away. If they find out while you are in medical school, you may be kicked out but I dont think once you graduate your license can be taken awayl
 
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