institutional filtering - myth or reality

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MyOdyssey

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The data presented on this thread shows sky high medical school admission rates for most T20 schools.

Data on what percent of med students went to top 25 undergrads?

Can anyone here who actually knows speak to whether these sky high admission rates are due in part to institutional filtering where a school's premed office discourages less qualified applicants by perhaps refusing to write a premed committee letter?

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The definition of what constitutes an applicant varies significantly.
Schools may only consider those who respond to a questionnaire, or those who receive a committee letter...
They may also consider a Caribbean school an acceptance.
There are as many ways to spin the "data" as there are colleges.
 
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The data presented on this thread shows sky high medical school admission rates for most T20 schools.

Data on what percent of med students went to top 25 undergrads?

Can anyone here who actually knows speak to whether these sky high admission rates are due in part to institutional filtering where a school's premed office discourages less qualified applicants by perhaps refusing to write a premed committee letter?
Very possible. I know in the case of UCLA (and probably UCB) there is no premed committee, and although the numbers of acceptees from those schools is high the percentage is not. Obviously those with less than stellar apps are not being dissuaded from applying.
 
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I can speak to it from firsthand experience. WashU brags about a high admit rate to medical school. That's because they filter a majority of premeds out during the prereqs. It keeps their average MCAT very high (33-35 on the old test, so 514-518 now) and their medical admit rate high along with it.

For some ballpark numbers, in my years as premed there were ~950 people that started the prereq series with me and ~300 that completed it.
 
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I can speak to it from firsthand experience. WashU brags about a high admit rate to medical school. That's because they filter a majority of premeds out during the prereqs. It keeps their average MCAT very high (33-35 on the old test, so 514-518 now) and their medical admit rate high along with it.

For some ballpark numbers, in my years as premed there were ~950 people that started the prereq series with me and ~300 that completed it.

That's typical at every school from the top to the bottom... there are weed-out classes that are going to preclude some people from having a viable chance at med school. The filtering really happens when a committee letter is essential for getting an offer of admission to the med school and the committee refuses to write a letter if it isn't a strong letter.
I agree that the other slight of hand that can be going on is what constitutes a med school... pushing off-shore schools as an option and then counting those as med school acceptances will bulk up the proportion of grads going on to med school.
 
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I can speak to it from firsthand experience. WashU brags about a high admit rate to medical school. That's because they filter a majority of premeds out during the prereqs. It keeps their average MCAT very high (33-35 on the old test, so 514-518 now) and their medical admit rate high along with it.

For some ballpark numbers, in my years as premed there were ~950 people that started the prereq series with me and ~300 that completed it.

WashU’s pre-Med program is Insane. It really makes me sad how cutthroat they are. I’ve had some very intellectual friends question their abilities and the whole medicine journey.


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That's typical at every school from the top to the bottom... there are weed-out classes that are going to preclude some people from having a viable chance at med school. The filtering really happens when a committee letter is essential for getting an offer of admission to the med school and the committee refuses to write a letter if it isn't a strong letter.
I agree that the other slight of hand that can be going on is what constitutes a med school... pushing off-shore schools as an option and then counting those as med school acceptances will bulk up the proportion of grads going on to med school.
But in this case it's atypical, because the cohort they start with already has top 1% SAT scores and was top of their high school class. They take a bunch of curve-setters and then curve them against each other so that only a minority can get competitive grades. Can look to the MCAT to see how much weedout the classes are doing at WashU vs the typical.

When I was applying:
Median MCAT bin for 3.8+ GPAs in the nation: 30-32 (top 15-20%)
Median MCAT bin for 3.8+ GPAs from WashU (n>200): 36-38 (top 1-3%)

That is why 80% of their applicants get into medical school. WashU doesn't deny committee letters to anyone. They just weed out nearly all the weak applicants before they can get to the point of asking for letters.
 
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Since it was referenced here we can use WashU as a case study then. This AAMC MCAT and GPA chart shows that applicants in the 514-517 range nationally have a 75.3% success rate.

View attachment 240655


WashU's reported 2012-2016 success rate was 78%. Appendix A, page 21 of this report, bottom right corner. The same page of this report also broadly confirms the previously referenced 514-518 range for applicants. Sorry for screenshots but I can't attach links for some reason. If you search "washu premed admit rate" it is the first hit.

View attachment 240656

Looks like WashU applicants are performing exactly at where you would expect, without any strange manipulations of admit data, institutional filtering, inclusion of offshore admit data, or frankly even bias in admissions toward higher ranking of school. I'm surprised it's not higher than 78% honestly, those are some stratospheric MCATs from a premed powerhouse.
Honestly, this just shows that where you go to undergrad doesn't really matter that much in the process. Schools want to see that you do well in classes and on the MCAT, regardless of what school you go to
 
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Yeah, at least at WashU, setting up a system where surviving the prereqs = likely to kill the MCAT is pretty much the name of the game. The role of a high MCAT in admissions absolutely dwarfs the role of school name.
 
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This thread is making me so, so thankful I went to an UG institution that didn't write committee letters. I find it strange that UG institutions are essentially given the key to the kingdom in terms of who is even allowed to apply to medical schools...
 
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But in this case it's atypical, because the cohort they start with already has top 1% SAT scores and was top of their high school class. They take a bunch of curve-setters and then curve them against each other so that only a minority can get competitive grades. Can look to the MCAT to see how much weedout the classes are doing at WashU vs the typical.

When I was applying:
Median MCAT bin for 3.8+ GPAs in the nation: 30-32 (top 15-20%)
Median MCAT bin for 3.8+ GPAs from WashU (n>200): 36-38 (top 1-3%)

That is why 80% of their applicants get into medical school. WashU doesn't deny committee letters to anyone. They just weed out nearly all the weak applicants before they can get to the point of asking for letters.
That's...really brutal.
Isn't flunking orgo/ some of the other pre reqs keep you from finishing certain degrees anyway? Like if they set up orgo so almost nobody can pass, wouldn't it be impossible for anyone to just finish a Bio/BME/Chem degree? I mean they wanna weed people out from applying to med school, but at least let them finish UGrad, or am I missing something here?
Also, Efle, do any kids coming out of WashU go to DO schools?
 
This thread is making me so, so thankful I went to an UG institution that didn't write committee letters. I find it strange that UG institutions are essentially given the key to the kingdom in terms of who is even allowed to apply to medical schools...
( sorry for the double post I didn't realize I wanted to quote both posts until I already made one)
In reference to the bolded...I seriously, seriously, hope that you can still apply to med school sans committee letter, I've really been thinking about this recently.
 
That's...really brutal.
Isn't flunking orgo/ some of the other pre reqs keep you from finishing certain degrees anyway? Like if they set up orgo so almost nobody can pass, wouldn't it be impossible for anyone to just finish a Bio/BME/Chem degree? I mean they wanna weed people out from applying to med school, but at least let them finish UGrad, or am I missing something here?
Also, Efle, do any kids coming out of WashU go to DO schools?
They curve it so the median grade is a 2.7-3.0 (B- to B), which is way too low for a good medical application GPA if you're getting marks like that across a bunch of prereqs, but still way above the first failing grade at a D+/1.3

So it's both very hard to fail the classes entirely and also tough to make a 3.5+ sGPA

I didn't know anyone who went DO. I think it's rare for them to have anyone to recommend it to. Generally the lower GPA students would give up on premed, and then the people surviving with a decent GPA would kill the MCAT and become very competitive for their state MD programs.
 
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( sorry for the double post I didn't realize I wanted to quote both posts until I already made one)
In reference to the bolded...I seriously, seriously, hope that you can still apply to med school sans committee letter, I've really been thinking about this recently.
You do NOT need a committee LOR to apply to med school, but some med schools prefer them, and state this on their websites. They also expect you to have an explanation if you don't have the committee LOR. The bias towards these LORs seems to also be strong at med schools that have specific feeder schools.
 
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They curve it so the median grade is a 2.7-3.0 (B- to B), which is way too low for a good medical application GPA if you're getting marks like that across a bunch of prereqs, but still way above the first failing grade at a D+/1.3

So it's both very hard to fail the classes entirely and also tough to make a 3.5+ sGPA

I didn't know anyone who went DO. I think it's rare for them to have anyone to recommend it to. Generally the lower GPA students would give up on premed, and then the people surviving with a decent GPA would kill the MCAT and become very competitive for their state MD programs.
So realistically if many of those same students (who were outstanding in HS) went to a different undergrad, they very likely would have had the grades to get into med school. Something for HS kids to think about when choosing undergrads.
 
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They curve it so the median grade is a 2.7-3.0 (B- to B), which is way too low for a good medical application GPA if you're getting marks like that across a bunch of prereqs, but still way above the first failing grade at a D+/1.3

So it's both very hard to fail the classes entirely and also tough to make a 3.5+ sGPA

I didn't know anyone who went DO. I think it's rare for them to have anyone to recommend it to. Generally the lower GPA students would give up on premed, and then the people surviving with a decent GPA would kill the MCAT and become very competitive for their state MD programs.

More questions....
Isn't getting B's in med school pre reqs not so bad, because majority of people applying to med school these days do if after senior year, this means that you clear pre reqs underclassmen years and you still have upperclassmen years to make up for this? Doesn't that means getting B's in most of your pre reqs may still not be the nail in the coffin? Especially if , like you said, WashU has such a reputation that you don't need the 3.5+ sGPA to score MD like most of us do?

As for why not DO, that makes perfect sense.

Sorry if I sound dumb I'm just really trying to piece together how these uber undergrads work, bc my state school is totally different.
 
I think it's real. I know a girl with a flat 3.0 and she said that our premed advisor laughed at her when she said she wanted to go to MS. But she is doing a postbac or SMP or something like that and will be going for DO. But the weeding is definitely real, and at many top schools, there are ample well paying career paths available. I know some people who quit midway through sophomore year and others who ground through and joined McKinsey after.
Usually classes there are curved between a B and B+ and some are not curved at all. It might be enough for DO but not for classic MD.
 
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I think it's real. I know a girl with a flat 3.0 and she said that our premed advisor laughed at her when she said she wanted to go to MS. But she is doing a postbac or SMP or something like that and will be going for DO. But the weeding is definitely real, and at many top schools, there are ample well paying career paths available. I know some people who quit midway through sophomore year and others who ground through and joined McKinsey after.
Usually classes there are curved between a B and B+ and some are not curved at all. It might be enough for DO but not for classic MD.
At what point of the game tho? After senior year? Or like halfway through college?
Because if it was after senior year that makes sense, but a 3.0 after a couple of semester is still salvageable, especially for DO ( sans masters or SMP)
MS? Did you mean master's or was that a typo?
At a non competitive school though, the median being a B/B+ means plenty of people can get an A, and I mean, at most universities, a pre med should be above average in most of their classes ( like at my competitive, low concentration of pre meds undergrad).
 
At what point of the game tho? After senior year? Or like halfway through college?
Because if it was after senior year that makes sense, but a 3.0 after a couple of semester is still salvageable, especially for DO ( sans masters or SMP)
MS? Did you mean master's or was that a typo?
At a non competitive school though, the median being a B/B+ means plenty of people can get an A, and I mean, at most universities, a pre med should be above average in most of their classes ( like at my competitive, low concentration of pre meds undergrad).
I think after junior year? And I meant MS = med school, sorry. My school is a T5 undergrad and I'd say every single pre-req class, minus like, Gen chem, which all engineers take, was filled with premeds. I think 13-15% of the school is premed. But I think we have an 80%+ for MD/90%+ for MD/PhD in terms of acceptance rates for graduates. Assuming 15% of my class applies, that's ~231 kids per year. I don't think all can be above the median, so clearly there is some 'wiggle room' with regard to GPAs.

I think that you're right, @Crk3639, to imply that disfavorable committee evaluations don't necessarily prevent people from applying. I know they really pushed a gap year for a current MD/PhD student I know due to the person's age, but they applied anyway and are doing fine. But I think to someone who isn't very well researched re: the process, it could be enough to dissuade them.
 
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The Wash U model of grading medical school prerequisites harshly probably doesn't explain all of the sky high medical admissions rates advertised by T20s.

I doubt Harvard, Brown or Stanford, to give a few examples, have these harsh curves like Wash U.

Does anyone know how those schools get their sky high medical school admissions rates?
 
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So realistically if many of those same students (who were outstanding in HS) went to a different undergrad, they very likely would have had the grades to get into med school. Something for HS kids to think about when choosing undergrads.
Yep. If my younger sibling was to be deciding between, say, Brown and Hopkins for undergrad? If they had any interest in med school or other competitive graduate admissions where GPA matters, I'd tell them to go to the place with grade inflation and happy premeds. Total no brainer.

More questions....
Isn't getting B's in med school pre reqs not so bad, because majority of people applying to med school these days do if after senior year, this means that you clear pre reqs underclassmen years and you still have upperclassmen years to make up for this? Doesn't that means getting B's in most of your pre reqs may still not be the nail in the coffin? Especially if , like you said, WashU has such a reputation that you don't need the 3.5+ sGPA to score MD like most of us do?

As for why not DO, that makes perfect sense.

Sorry if I sound dumb I'm just really trying to piece together how these uber undergrads work, bc my state school is totally different.
Premeds aren't all as informed as the SDN crowd. A lot of people just know they're supposed to get mostly As with some Bs allowed. If you finish a few semesters of busting your ass and are looking at a 3.1 sGPA or something, you think you have to give up.


The Wash U model of grading medical school prerequisites harshly probably doesn't explain all of the sky high medical admissions rates advertised by T20s.

I doubt Harvard, Brown or Stanford, to give a few examples, have these harsh curves like Wash U.

Does anyone know how those schools get their sky high medical school admissions rates?
They inflate the crap out of their grade distributions. Harvard was in the news a few years back when it leaked that their average GPA was a 3.7

That should more than offset the reduced pressure on good test taking skills. A 3.7/510+ with a HYPS name and strong ECs is easily going to get into medical school 80% of the time or more.
 
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That should more than offset the reduced pressure on good test taking skills. A 3.7/510+ with a HYPS name and strong ECs is easily going to get into medical school 80% of the time or more.
? My school has an median matriculating student MCAT of 515. There is plenty of pressure on exams. I can't think of a single class I took where homework mattered more than 20%. In fact, in the main premed pre-req classes, homework counted for almost nothing. Many people I spoke to considered the MCAT easier than our classes. It's multiple choice, you get lots of background from the passage, the material is not all that deep...Plus, T20 UGs cared a lot about standardized testing, especially up until 2015/2016, when the SAT IIs stopped being mandatory.
 
? My school has an median matriculating student MCAT of 515. There is plenty of pressure on exams. I can't think of a single class I took where homework mattered more than 20%. In fact, in the main premed pre-req classes, homework counted for almost nothing. Many people I spoke to considered the MCAT easier than our classes. It's multiple choice, you get lots of background from the passage, the material is not all that deep...Plus, T20 UGs cared a lot about standardized testing, especially up until 2015/2016, when the SAT IIs stopped being mandatory.
Imagine the exact same experience as far as difficulty, only instead of the median student getting a 3.7, they get a 2.7. The weeding pressure isn't comparable. That's why places like Hopkins and WashU have an attrition rate of more than half while places like Harvard or Brown do not.

Not to make it sound like I'm against inflation. I think places like Hopkins undergrad are excessive and miserable and should start inflating their grades. Interesting to hear the average applicant MCAT doesn't drop much with a GPA bump. Just adds salt to the wound that their weeding isn't helping them protect their success much relative to inflating peers, I'd also guess it's because the demands of the classes are way beyond anything the MCAT will throw at you.
 
Imagine the exact same experience as far as difficulty, only instead of the median student getting a 3.7, they get a 2.7. The weeding pressure isn't comparable. That's why places like Hopkins and WashU have an attrition rate of more than half while places like Harvard or Brown do not.

Not to make it sound like I'm against inflation. I think places like Hopkins undergrad are excessive and miserable and should start inflating their grades. Interesting to hear the average applicant MCAT doesn't drop much with a GPA bump. Just adds salt to the wound that their weeding isn't helping them protect their success much relative to inflating peers, I'd also guess it's because the demands of the classes are way beyond anything the MCAT will throw at you.
Did you know what WashU was like when you chose it? I mean you were succesful but I'm sure not all of your peers were.
 
Did you know what WashU was like when you chose it? I mean you were succesful but I'm sure not all of your peers were.
No I didn't. I got lucky. I knew a lot of people smart enough and hard working enough to handle med school that never got there, because they couldn't beat enough of their peers in the prereqs.
 
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No I didn't. I got lucky. I knew a lot of people smart enough and hard working enough to handle med school that never got there, because they couldn't beat enough of their peers in the prereqs.

What happened to them?

Did Wash U's reputation help you or your classmates with conventionally high GPAs (e.g. 3.8 or above) get a leg up at the T10 medical schools?
 
What happened to them?

Did Wash U's reputation help you or your classmates with conventionally high GPAs (e.g. 3.8 or above) get a leg up at the T10 medical schools?
Variety of things. One went for Pharm school instead. One went into a company that helps run pharma trials. One switched to econ, not sure what their job title is these days. Many end up going for other, less competitive kinds of grad schools. Everyone still does well, I don't know any premeds that ended up unemployed or anything like that.

Hard to tell what is causal. The handful of people I know that got 3.9+ GPAs in the prereqs have all ended up admitted to the top-ranked couple dozen private MD schools, several receiving full tuition merit offers from them. But then again they also all scored in the top couple percentile on the MCAT and had solid apps otherwise. I doubt anybody had their interview or admit decisions determined by where they made their good grades. Even at my med school, which is heavily skewed towards the big name feeder undergrads, there are still plenty of people from state programs and liberal arts colleges I'd never heard of.
 
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Imagine the exact same experience as far as difficulty, only instead of the median student getting a 3.7, they get a 2.7. The weeding pressure isn't comparable. That's why places like Hopkins and WashU have an attrition rate of more than half while places like Harvard or Brown do not.

Not to make it sound like I'm against inflation. I think places like Hopkins undergrad are excessive and miserable and should start inflating their grades. Interesting to hear the average applicant MCAT doesn't drop much with a GPA bump. Just adds salt to the wound that their weeding isn't helping them protect their success much relative to inflating peers, I'd also guess it's because the demands of the classes are way beyond anything the MCAT will throw at you.
Well, the average matriculated GPA is a 3.64 :) I think places like my school have to inflate or else they will lose students to competitors. Even Princeton reversed their policy. But I will say that even without specific deflation, my school has a very robust stress culture and there have been several suicides in recent years. So it's probably a good thing that the distribution is nice-ish.
 
Well, the average matriculated GPA is a 3.64 :) I think places like my school have to inflate or else they will lose students to competitors. Even Princeton reversed their policy. But I will say that even without specific deflation, my school has a very robust stress culture and there have been several suicides in recent years. So it's probably a good thing that the distribution is nice-ish.
Yeah, hopefully the pressure to protect yield will force more and more of the top programs to inflate their science grades. MIT and U Chicago can probably hold out a long time since they're not too dense with premeds, but a place like Hopkins undergrad is going to have to go the way of Princeton and relax their grading.
 
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Well, the average matriculated GPA is a 3.64 :) I think places like my school have to inflate or else they will lose students to competitors. Even Princeton reversed their policy. But I will say that even without specific deflation, my school has a very robust stress culture and there have been several suicides in recent years. So it's probably a good thing that the distribution is nice-ish.
Oh my God....? And the school won't do anything to change it's policies?
 
Well, the average matriculated GPA is a 3.64 :) I think places like my school have to inflate or else they will lose students to competitors. Even Princeton reversed their policy. But I will say that even without specific deflation, my school has a very robust stress culture and there have been several suicides in recent years. So it's probably a good thing that the distribution is nice-ish.

Is your school an Ivy?
 
Is your school an Ivy?
Yes
Oh my God....? And the school won't do anything to change it's policies?
I feel like they think that the students tend to put more pressure on themselves to excel than the school itself, so they've taken some measures to decrease how many classes a student can take. They got a 14 point plan written up by some consulting company, but it's yet to be seen how effective it is. I'm not sure if that's enough to address the loneliness and isolation that is characteristic of many students' experiences. I had the world's greatest advisor who was always willing to advocate for me, so I made it through ok, but many students lack such support. I feel like getting good advisors would do a lot towards remedying the issue.
 
Really glad my school didn't have a premed committee. No way I could have gotten one with my ~3.3 gpa even though I'm doing just fine in the cycle so far. Some committees don't even send out letters until late august which can also hinder your application at certain schools.
 
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