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I have a debate this week. I'm on the Evolution side. Any good resources, especially for debunking the watchmaker analogy?
I could not take part in this debate. I believe the term for what I believe in is "theistic evolution" and that, basically, God exists, He/She created the universe, as well as all of the biological processes within it, including evolution. Makes the most sense to me.
I think people are just way too wrapped up in arguing with each other to see that they don't HAVE to be mutually exclusive, you know? I was taught evolution in Catholic school as well.Me too! Most folks at church are stunned when they find out I'm a Biology major and believe in evolution...and folks in my Biology classes are stunned when they see my cross with Psalm 27 tattooed on my upper arm.
I think people are just way too wrapped up in arguing with each other to see that they don't HAVE to be mutually exclusive, you know? I was taught evolution in Catholic school as well.
Fo' real.I think people are just way too wrapped up in arguing with each other to see that they don't HAVE to be mutually exclusive, you know? I was taught evolution in Catholic school as well.
Yeah, I get this a lot from one of my parents, too.Yup. I catch a LOT of flack from my parents for "believing" in Evolution. Daddy's a Southern Baptist minister, so it's not too surprising haha. I don't see why it's become such a heated topic. There's way more important things to worry about than what happened millions vs. thousands of years ago.
Gravity is only a theory!Do you go to Bob Jones University? Outside of that, having a ID vs. Evolution debate is like your chemistry department hosting a Alchemy vs. Chemistry debate, or your Physics department holding a Gravity vs. Fairies-pulling-you-down debate.
I have a debate this week. I'm on the Evolution side. Any good resources, especially for debunking the watchmaker analogy?
loma linda?One of my student hosts for a med school interview told me that about half the class seemed not to believe in evolution. Decided that school wasn't the best fit for me
Look up Ken Miller. He's a Brown professor who is very involved in the debate between ID and evolution. Though he is a very religious man, he is a strong supporter of evolution and I remember he had a good argument for one of ID's main beefs with evolution that involved a mousetrap.
I think people are just way too wrapped up in arguing with each other to see that they don't HAVE to be mutually exclusive, you know? I was taught evolution in Catholic school as well.
So, while it is true you can believe in a god and evolution, it's very hard to reconcile the two and still be realistic about what's happening in the universe.
The problem is falsifying your theory, which is impossible. If God started the first chain of events that led to humans, but doesn't interact at all with the universe, then what's the point in believing he/she/it exists? Or do you think evolution is just God being "mysterious"? To me, if you believe in evolution, you don't believe in Genesis, which is a book in the Bible; at this point you must realize that you are picking and choosing parts of the Bible to suit your needs, which is wishful thinking at best.
So, while it is true you can believe in a god and evolution, it's very hard to reconcile the two and still be realistic about what's happening in the universe.
Well, falsifying God is impossible. Falsifying evolution is not.The problem is falsifying your theory, which is impossible.
This is getting way off topic, but the problem with your dichotomy is that the Bible does not distinguish between history, science, and spirituality. It places spirituality in a historical (and scientific) context. Since the history (and science) is flawed, the spirituality piece is flawed as well. An example is intercessory prayer. Answers to prayer by necessity interfere with the "laws" of nature. Thus, the question of prayer becomes a scientific question, which is relatively easy to test (and nullify) by scientific means. Honestly evaluating the science and history of the Christian faith, the "spirituality" eventually dies the death of a thousand caveats. But there are some justifiable non-scientific reasons to hold on to the faith, if that is one's desire, such as social and emotional.Many Christians(myself, included) believe that the Bible is accurate regarding spiritual matters but was not meant to be a history nor scientific text. The most important thing in the Bible are the words written in red and Jesus never said anything about evolution nor intelligent design. The Bible tells me how to live, how to treat people, and what happens to my soul when my body is gone...not about lobe-finned fish or microraptor.
I think God used evolution as it is incredibly adaptive by definition. Evolution is the best mechanism to make sure life persists and I think that is why God uses it. The world is ever changing and his works need to adapt.
I have a debate this week. I'm on the Evolution side. Any good resources, especially for debunking the watchmaker analogy?
This is getting way off topic, but the problem with your dichotomy is that the Bible does not distinguish between history, science, and spirituality. It places spirituality in a historical (and scientific) context. Since the history (and science) is flawed, the spirituality piece is flawed as well. An example is intercessory prayer. Answers to prayer by necessity interfere with the "laws" of nature. Thus, the question of prayer becomes a scientific question, which is relatively easy to test (and nullify) by scientific means. Honestly evaluating the science and history of the Christian faith, the "spirituality" eventually dies the death of a thousand caveats. But there are some justifiable non-scientific reasons to hold on to the faith, if that is one's desire, such as social and emotional.
Many Christians(myself, included) believe that the Bible is accurate regarding spiritual matters but was not meant to be a history nor scientific text. The most important thing in the Bible are the words written in red and Jesus never said anything about evolution nor intelligent design. The Bible tells me how to live, how to treat people, and what happens to my soul when my body is gone...not about lobe-finned fish or microraptor.
I think God used evolution as it is incredibly adaptive by definition. Evolution is the best mechanism to make sure life persists and I think that is why God uses it. The world is ever changing and his works need to adapt.
There is a name for that: christian apologetics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_apologists
And the ranks include C.S. Lewis, etc.
It's fine for a personal belief. However, it can't be introduced into formal science since it relies on the works of a supernatural power that can not be falsified.
That's the rub with I.D. It is a completely unworkable theory scientifically speaking.
That was also the opinion of the federal judge in the Dover case.
Right. I think you'll find very few people with beliefs similar to mine that believe that ID or anything relating to God ought to be taught in the classroom. It's not science, cannot be tested...doesn't belong in education.
untrue, as long as it is no detriment you can accumulate as many mutations as you want - as evidenced by things like eye color diversity. your paradigm on the ATPsynthetase is also flawed in that it assumes these subunits existed in their current form to somehow be randomly "assembled"I don't know of many Christians holding that the 6 day creation narrative in Genesis is 6 24 hours periods of time. We believe that it's symbolic and just shows the process of desiging the world in which we live. As a theology/pre-med major, I spent quite a bit of time on this topic from both sides and found alot more evidence favoring ID. The one biological mechanism that stands out to me is ATP Synthase (especially the proton pump). Evolutionary theories constantly state that mutations favoring survival persist while mutations that serve no function and that do not enhance survival do not remain. The proton pump has many subunits and moving parts seen nowhere else on the cellular level, so that would mean that all these parts would have had to come together at the same time and fit perfectly and work immediately. If the subunits came together one at a time, there would be no functional use for them and they would disintegrate and not evolve any further. I hope you see what I'm trying to say here, it's very hard to put into a semi-short post. Also I still haven't heard a convincing argument for how matter existed without someone or something creating it, it's just something I cannot wrap my brain around. There ultimately has to be an unmoved mover.
Anyway, Catholicism teaches that we are all a part of creation and that it is ongoing, meaning that the creation narrative in the Bible is not finished, meaning that evolution has been and is at play in the world. We just hold that it was God's design to use evolution and place a rational soul in man at the time of his "appearance" in the evolutionary process. Of course there are varying degrees of belief in evolution in the Catholic Church and among other Christians, but it goes to show that Intelligent design and evolution can mutually exist and actually benefit eachother. As Einstein said, "The more I study science, the more I believe in God," and I have to say that I feel the same way.
A dichotomy is splitting something that is whole into separate parts. It's difficult to legitimately salvage traditional Christian spirituality when the history and science of the Christian scriptures is unreliable. Attempts to do so are often the result of social and emotional pressures.The word "dichotomy" means something entirely different than you think it means. And ironically enough your reply created one.
who is acting derogatorily towards religion here?
untrue, as long as it is no detriment you can accumulate as many mutations as you want - as evidenced by things like eye color diversity. your paradigm on the ATPsynthetase is also flawed in that it assumes these subunits existed in their current form to somehow be randomly "assembled"
just a thought/question after reading tons of bs-ing threads on here...
do those of you in medical school think that the amount of people who seem to hate/seriously dislike religion (that is, act in a derogatory and/or condescending way towards it) in med school populations is represented by the amt of those who feel that way on SDN?
i'm just wondering...
ATP synthetase is a little more complex than a mutation to a gene coding for eumelanin production. I know what you're saying, but I don't think it's that simple. Another good example is the flagellum and the rotor that drives it. The first time I saw that mechanism used to argue for intelligent design was in the documentary "Unlocking the Mystery of Life." It is a great documentary and does a better job of explaining what I'm trying to say. If you have a chance, you should take a peak at it, pretty sure it's on youtube too. Again, I'm not saying you're wrong by comparing eye color to ATP synthetase, I just think it's not that simple, but I'm no expert.
I'm also not assuming that these subunits existed before. I actually don't think they exist anywhere else, correct me if I'm wrong. It just exhibits the unliklihood of all these mutations taking place to create the life-sustaining parts that happened to come together to form ATP synthetase pump. Again, the aforementioned documentary does a great job of explaining the unliklihood of the chance formation of such a mechanism.
Do you mean ought not be taught in a classroom?
A lot of people feel that way. As mentioned above, Ken Miller is an excellent example of such a person.
A dichotomy is splitting something that is whole into separate parts. It's difficult to legitimately salvage traditional Christian spirituality when the history and science of the Christian scriptures is unreliable. Attempts to do so are often the result of social and emotional pressures.
I think you misread my post.
BTW, if you are a combat vet(judging by your avatar)..thanks!
Evolution, in my opinion, does hurt religious beliefs. For the Christian pro-evolution people, answer me this:
You claim that ~2000-3000 years ago, God revealed himself to man and gave humans his divine revelation. It doesn't matter how you interpret the Bible. But God gave it to man progressively only a couple thousand or so years ago, and this is a path to human salvation and you believe that humans should treasure the Bible as God's revelation.
Anthropologists would say that homo sapiens have been around for at least 100,000 years (by a very conservative estimate). You mean to tell me that for 997,000 years God watched our species indifferently as it died in a horrific, bloody, and savage evolutionary arms race? He waited until then to drop by with the divine intervention? You call this God "loving"? God just watched as our ancestors routinely died at the age of 20 of starvation?
It makes more sense to me why Christians tend to accept creationism over evolution because then we wouldn't have this problem. If you mix Christianity and evolution, you have to deal with these issues.
Are you arguing for Behe's lame theory of "irreducible complexity"? If so, be aware that Behe and his theory were absolutely thrashed on the stand at Dover.
In fact, ID was so completely thrashed in the Dover trial, that one of the main founders of the modern ID movement, attorney Phillip Johnson, basically ran up the white flag after the trial.
Ken Miller does a pretty good job of covering the flagellum argument in his lecture at Case Western. You can find it on youtube if you are interested.