Intelligent Design vs Evolution

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Second, you're making quite a few jumps in your description of what the hypothesis actually says, and the house analogy doesn't work. A more correct (though obviously imperfect) analogy would be something like the following: imagine this world where there are a bunch of cardboard boxes, and people happen to use them as houses / clothing / whatever. However, some of these people "learn" to do various things to improve their boxes: some figure out ways to fasten them together, others learn to steal boxes from their neighbors, others figure out how to make them waterproof, etc. Now there's competition, and given enough time, these people don't need boxes at all, but rather have evolved the machinery to build a house around them and separate machinery to clothe themselves.

First of all, I plan on reporting you for calling me a tw*t, sicko.

Next....read your stupid post. You clearly said because of competition or whatever, they'd evolved machinery to build a house. You actually think I have to ability to read your mind and see you're talking about sticky secretions hardening?

You said they'd have the machiner to build HOUSES....not the machinery to create sticky stuff that would harden and perform the same function as a house!

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Why does the box have to be an initial part of the environment as opposed to your supposed secretions hardening into a shell because of selection for it as a defense against predators? (as one example.)

That is much simpler an explanation.


That's why the box analogy isn't all that great. However, in the case of the micelle ambiogenesis hypothesis, you need something to work with before evolution can take action. In this case, suppose we have a bunch of 'critters' that have some basic machinery for doing stuff, have membranes, but can't actually make membranes at all. They have to acquire all of their membrane lipids from the environment. Now, the critter that develops the ability to make even the most rudimentary additions or modifications to their own membranes will have an advantage because they have just a little bit more control over their world. Through lots of little steps like this, it is reasonable that these critters would eventually get to the point where they could make all of the components for their own membranes. In this example, you can't just take away the initial presence of membrane lipids in the environment or there's nothing to work with.

This is getting more mathematical now, but there are limits in the size of step that evolution can reasonably make in one go. However, if there is an intermediate step between two 'points', the probabilities of that happening my chance become larger, maybe even large enough that we'd expect it to happen. If the intermediate step makes use of something in their environment that the 'endpoint' doesn't, then so be it.
 
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Hmm? If 5 billion people believed in Unicorns and wanted to argue with me, I'd spend the night arguing that with them. Who am I going to argue unicorns with? It's not that I take unicorns any less seriously than God, but other people take God more seriously than unicorns. I'm happy to debate both of those delusions the same way.

You know, the magical unicorn told me what he wanted me to do for the rest of my life and saved my brother from dying in a car accident. So he must exist.

This is a distilled version of the argument I used to use for the existence of God. The problem is, even having grown up as a "devout Christian" with a minister father, I don't think I've ever "heard from God" or seen anyone "magically saved from cancer by God." So why would I believe stories of other people who claim that "God must have saved my xxx from xxx." or "I talk with God every day." Sounds like an exercise in suspension of disbelief.

For the record, I do not totally disbelieve in God. I'm becoming rather agnostic with a watchmaker bent. I do still think that a lot of religious texts include valuable lessons on ethics.
 
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First of all, I plan on reporting you for calling me a tw*t, sicko.

Next....read your stupid post. You clearly said because of competition or whatever, they'd evolved machinery to build a house. You actually think I have to ability to read your mind and see you're talking about sticky secretions hardening?

It's my fault for continuing with your box / house analogy. I admit that I could have been more clear in the middle, but it should also be clear that I wasn't talking about Lamarckian evolution at all. You misread my post, assumed that I have absolutely no understanding of biochemistry / genetics / modern science, and start replying aggressively to me. That makes you dense, and a twit.


You said they'd have the machiner to build HOUSES....not the machinery to create sticky stuff that would harden and perform the same function as a house!

What's the difference? If it performs that same function as a house, why can't you call that a house? If I needed to specify that they aren't born with a complete set of lumber, nails, and cedar siding, I don't think there's any point trying to convince you of anything.
 
even if the mods DO take action, which they shouldn't since twit isn't some nasty insult (what were YOU thinking, you sicko?), it'll just result in a wristslap warning.
 
even if the mods DO take action, which they shouldn't since twit isn't some nasty insult (what were YOU thinking, you sicko?), it'll just result in a wristslap warning.


If he'd been calling me a "twit" he would have wrote twit. He wrote "tw*t." Quit being a jerk.

And I reported him because he deserved to be reported. I don't care if they delete his account or do nothing.

One thing is absolutely certain...he should be very happy that he didn't say it to my face, because I would've slugged him in the face as hard I could.

I don't appreciate being called misogynistic words! You can't call women tw*ts, just like you can't throw around racist terms like they're nothing.
 
If he'd been calling me a "twit" he would have wrote twit. He wrote "tw*t." Quit being a jerk.

And I reported him because he deserved to be reported. I don't care if they delete his account or do nothing.

One thing is absolutely certain...he should be very happy that he didn't say it to my face, because I would've slugged him in the face as hard I could.

I don't appreciate being called misogynistic words! You can't call women tw*ts, just like you can't throw around racist terms like they're nothing.


Wow, you really are being a little baby about this aren't you? For starters, I did mean twit (–noun Informal. an insignificant or bothersome person. [dictionary.com]), and added the * because, well, SDN filters pretty much everything and imagine what you would have assumed if I called you a dense ****. I didn't know twit went through until bleargh said it afterwards. Also, I had no idea what gender you were until now, so settle down about that.

Now, let's go back to you misunderstanding anything scientific I say and insulting my intelligence with rash assumptions about what I mean.
 
That's why the box analogy isn't all that great. However, in the case of the micelle ambiogenesis hypothesis, you need something to work with before evolution can take action. In this case, suppose we have a bunch of 'critters' that have some basic machinery for doing stuff, have membranes, but can't actually make membranes at all. They have to acquire all of their membrane lipids from the environment. Now, the critter that develops the ability to make even the most rudimentary additions or modifications to their own membranes will have an advantage because they have just a little bit more control over their world. Through lots of little steps like this, it is reasonable that these critters would eventually get to the point where they could make all of the components for their own membranes. In this example, you can't just take away the initial presence of membrane lipids in the environment or there's nothing to work with.

This is getting more mathematical now, but there are limits in the size of step that evolution can reasonably make in one go. However, if there is an intermediate step between two 'points', the probabilities of that happening my chance become larger, maybe even large enough that we'd expect it to happen. If the intermediate step makes use of something in their environment that the 'endpoint' doesn't, then so be it.

The issue with your example is semantics. Your choice of words isn't great, although it makes a bit more sense now. They may start with one trait that helps them utilize something from the environment better, but it is not an issue of "replacing" the part of the environment with something that is their own, or developing their own alternative to it. The two aren't related, and adaptation is not prescient.

"chance" and what we might "expect" are irrelevant.
 
If he'd been calling me a "twit" he would have wrote twit. He wrote "tw*t." Quit being a jerk.

And I reported him because he deserved to be reported. I don't care if they delete his account or do nothing.

One thing is absolutely certain...he should be very happy that he didn't say it to my face, because I would've slugged him in the face as hard I could.


I don't appreciate being called misogynistic words! You can't call women tw*ts, just like you can't throw around racist terms like they're nothing.
keeping in line with the other ways you've displayed your complete maturity
 
keeping in line with the other ways you've displayed your complete maturity


Why don't you go call someone a racist or misogynistic term and see how maturely they act?

oh...but of course. He called me a twit, and not a tw*t.

Its so obvious. I can't believe I didn't see it. Kind of like how its obvious that a word that for a woman that ends in *unt, is aunt...and not....well you know.

Course, its so obvious.
 
you're acting like those crazy christians who say spongebob is an agent of gay subversion.
 
Not at all. Are you suggesting that building a super-collider the size of the solar system is only "very challenging" and not statistically impossible in our lifetimes?

I'd say it's both things. However, it doesn't matter that it cannot be accomplished in our lifetimes. There are plenty of instances of scientific theories being only experimented many years after their initial development. These are no different.

If you are, there really isn't much left to say is there? The problem is the "theoretical disprovability" is not wrong or bad in and of itself, but becomes a blanket to throw over other reasonable questions that the arguer would rather not tackle.

Now, I think we have reached the heart of the matter. You're disagreement is not with me or anyone else in the thread, but science itself. Science "throws the blanket of theoretical disprovability" over questions it would rather not tackle, specifically because it seeks to only study the events of the physical universe, not the metaphysical. It is perfectly fine to disagree with this assertion, but you argument is not "ID is science" but that "ID should be science". These are two different things.

We have nothing in science to address the origin of life (as agreed and posted by most people on this thread, many times per my prodding)

We have plenty of theories, evolution just isn't one of them, and they are not complete. I've mentioned several of them a couple of times and all of them are disprovable. For example, the idea of inorganic molecules and lightning can form basic organic compounds. That hypothesis was tested and found to be accurate. It's not unreasonable to suggest then that it could have played a role in the formation of life.

As for your argument that we can't know what the universe, or Earth for that matter, was like before life came to be, I disagree with that and I'm actually unsure how you could arrive at that position. I've never heard of a case where information becomes totally and irrevokably lost. It's one of the principles of Physics as I understand it.


If its truly the latter, could you explain to me why prominent evolution proponents will attempt to explain life's origin at all, let alone with things like directed panspermia and piggybacking on crystals?

I just did. They're not saying evolution is responsible for those things.


If the true argument is against all things not scientifically disprovable than why not just say that and not attempt to answer the question at all? Of course the answer to that is basically, we all want to know.

Of course! The problem is that the questions you are seeking to answer are outside of the bounds of science. When it was decided (I'd be curious as to who actually made the decision) what fit the description of science, it was decided that science would not incorperate all aspects of human life. It is a field in which one of the limits set on it is what things are theoretically disprovable.

So then how does one begin the process of approaching something outside our known scientific arsenal using only scientifically bound questions? Your point about physical universe is then valid. So why are we addressing the question of the origin of life at all if we really have no scientific ability to do so, and if thats true, why is it bad to allow all questions on the subject matter? I find piggybacking crystals and "seeding" just as preposterous as pink unicorns defecating life into existence.

It's not bad to allow all questions. The question of ID is an important one to consider and should be mentioned when considering the origin of life, but it should be noted that it is not a scientific answer. My high school biology teacher mentioned ID, she stated that it was a perfectly fine way to look at the universe, but that it's not a scientific theory for the reasons above. I thought that was good.

Also, if you had infinite knowledge you would know if there was in fact intelligence within the system.

An Intelligent Designer is not necessarily limited by the bounds of the physical universe. Even if we had infinite knowledge of our physical universe we would still be unable to disprove the concept of a deity existing beyond it who controlled its development.

So then any explanation of the origin of life is unscientific and not a theory. So then whats this argument about?

Not true. Let's say I have a scientific theory about how rocks and crystals can propogate life. I could run an experiment to test it. It would not be easy and would be generations long, which is why no one has done so yet. However, because I could do that it remains a scientific theory, albeit one with no evidence that you would be well within your rights to discard as hocus pocus. That's what I do in these situations.

I'm guess from your readings that you are less upset that ID is not considered a scientific theory, as you seem to understand that it's not, but more that the scientific theories we have as to the origin of life have little if any evidence and yet are often expounded as fact. I share this irritation.
 
Closing, as this thread has gone considerably off-track since its inception, its original purpose having long ago been served.
 
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