Interest in researching as an MD

[RNtoMD87]

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I have a lot of interest being on the academic side of MD/DO. After practicing in a specialty for a period of time I would be very much interested in teaching or working otherwise in academia.

First of all, are DO's disadvantaged when it comes to research opportunities against MDs?

Secondly, where is a good place to look in order to get involved with research as a premed? I've tried to go through the magnet hospital that I work at but the closest thing ive come to find are Mortality and Morbidity cases, which while very interesting to me, is not research.

Thank you

 

[Oso]

These are my thoughts:

1. I would not think that being a DO, per say, would put you at a disadvantage when it comes to finding a research opportunity.

Though MD students may have greater opportunities simply because a lot of MD schools are research powerhouses compared to DO and simply have more research going on.

So it’s possible an MD doc may end up having more research experience that would make them more qualified for a faculty position.. but I don’t think that’s due to the degree itself.

Also, DO’s traditionally have a harder time entering the really competitive specialties where research is huge, so MD’s may have more opportunities for research simply because they are in fields like optho, derm, GI, etc.

I would think that if you are a DO with a solid research background and sincere interest in academia that you would be considered for an academic position in your field.

2. If there is a university nearby, I would just email a **** ton of PI’s that run labs and see what you get. Doesn’t have to be medical research or through a medical school.

 

[RNtoMD87]

You think they would let me participate even if I'm not a student of that University?

 

[Oso]

You think they would let me participate even if I'm not a student of that University?

I think it’s a bit harder if you’re not a student there, but it is certainly possible. You may have to offer to volunteer though. Send a bunch of emails and hopefully you get something.

 

[FroYoOreo]

We just had a summer intern (with a college degree) in our lab from another college. My boss already made it clear to her that she would not be hired at the end of the internship.

 

[sab3156]

I would not think that being a DO, per say, would put you at a disadvantage when it comes to finding a research opportunity.

It is definitely harder for DO students to get research opportunities at academic research centers. That's undeniable. MD students have a massive advantage in this. Tons of people I know in my school have not even heard back from low-tier MD schools in the area that they tried to get in touch with for research. They were given the silent treatment. None of my friends at MD schools have ever had trouble finding research.

 

[MareNostrummm]

It is definitely harder for DO students to get research opportunities at academic research centers. That's undeniable. MD students have a massive advantage in this. Tons of people I know in my school have not even heard back from low-tier MD schools in the area that they tried to get in touch with for research. They were given the silent treatment. None of my friends at MD schools have ever had trouble finding research.

You're basically treated as a second-class citizen if you try to find research opportunities at a different school, unless the PI is desperate or doesn't care. They would view you as stealing resources away from their own students.

 

[sab3156]

You're basically treated as a second-class citizen if you try to find research opportunities at a different school, unless the PI is desperate or doesn't care. They would view you as stealing resources away from their own students.

I don't think that's true, because all schools advertise various research fellowships on their websites to med students around the country. But it's definitely true that some researchers would rather take their own school's students. On top of that, it seems that a bunch of PIs would take MD students over DO students. My class hasn't fared too well trying to find research opportunities.

 

[MareNostrummm]

I don't think that's true, because all schools advertise various research fellowships on their websites to med students around the country. But it's definitely true that some researchers would rather take their own school's students. On top of that, it seems that a bunch of PIs would take MD students over DO students. My class hasn't fared too well trying to find research opportunities.

You can still find research opportunities if you're willing to shotgun email a ton of PIs. But if you were a MD at that school all you would have to do is go to your clinical and translational research department and ask for a research gig and they would gladly set everything up for you...

 

[LizzyM]

As an undergraduate, you want to have a research opportunity, not becuase you want to do clinical research, or not to do research that is clinical relevant but to stick a toe in the water and see what research is like. The bias is that "research" at this point in your training should be in a wet lab, or, at the very least, out in the field collecting samples from nature (e.g. you are collecting pond scum and taking it back to someone in the lab). You should toil with the hope and expectation that you eventually get to the point where you will be able to test hypotheses, if not big ideas in science, maybe small ideas within a project, such as, "will reducing the temperature and lengthening the period of incubation work better than what we have been doing?"

Once you get to medical school, either MD or DO, there will be people at the medical school who have labs (Goro has a lab - hi @Goro!). You will have an opportunity, and perhaps even an expectation, that you will find a lab and help out there and perhaps engage in a project that you will publish or present before you graduate from medical school. Rinse and repeat in residency & fellowship.

Most people who practice medicine are expected to practice throughout their career. Teaching and research are usually sidelines. Teaching begins in residency when you are asked to supervise and teach/coach those below you in training who are rotating on your service. This continues in residency and fellowship. Some medical school facutly get involved with pedagogy and teaching/curriculum development but many do this as "good citizenship" and not for much pay-- taking care of patients still pays the bills and you might get 10-25% salary support in exchange for taking on major responsibilities for teaching in the medical school. Ditto for research, much of it is done 10-25% time... the only people who tend to devote 80% time to research are MD/PhD types.

 

[sab3156]

You can still find research opportunities if you're willing to shotgun email a ton of PIs. But if you were a MD at that school all you would have to do is go to your clinical and translational research department and ask for a research gig and they would gladly set everything up for you...

The point of the thread isn't that it is possible to find research opportunities if you are at a DO school. The point is that DOs have a significantly harder time landing research fellowships over the summer and things like that. The shotgun approach has been done by several of my friends, with nothing but silent treatment in return.

 

[MareNostrummm]

The point of the thread isn't that it is possible to find research opportunities if you are at a DO school. The point is that DOs have a significantly harder time landing research fellowships over the summer and things like that. The shotgun approach has been done by several of my friends, with nothing but silent treatment in return.

Okay.

 

[Oso]

It is definitely harder for DO students to get research opportunities at academic research centers. That's undeniable. MD students have a massive advantage in this. Tons of people I know in my school have not even heard back from low-tier MD schools in the area that they tried to get in touch with for research. They were given the silent treatment. None of my friends at MD schools have ever had trouble finding research.

I said being a DO, not a DO student. I also specifically said being an MD student will yield more research opportunities. Please read my post.

 

[sab3156]

I said being a DO, not a DO student. I also specifically said being an MD student will yield more research opportunities. Please read my post.

Maybe I misread. I agree with you on most of your points.

Basically, if you want to enter academic medicine as a DO, you better have outstanding research at an academic residency program. Which means you better have great research in undergraduate medical years. Which is difficult for a DO student to get.

 

[smukke]

I said being a DO, not a DO student. I also specifically said being an MD student will yield more research opportunities. Please read my post.

Not enough research as a student leads to having a harder time landing a residency at a research heavy program means not as much research during residency leads to having a harder time landing a research fellowship. Once you are an attending you can do research on your own in your free time but unless you can bring in some grant money you aren't going to be able to get protected time to do it which means you are going to be hindered by clinical duties and aren't going to be as productive as someone who can devote a significant amount of their time which means even less chance at funding. And as much as it shouldn't be this way, pedigree is a factor in research/academic medicine (school/degree/training lab/fellowship program/etc) so while a DO degree won't prevent you from doing research, it isn't going to do you any favors either.

On the other hand the AOA and other osteopathic groups seem to have realized that having DOs engaged in research is an important part of legitimacy/prestige/etc so they have been putting a lot of attention on it and there are programs/grants specifically aimed at helping DOs (and not just for pure osteopathic research) so there is some up side.

 

[Med Ed]

I have a lot of interest being on the academic side of MD/DO. After practicing in a specialty for a period of time I would be very much interested in teaching or working otherwise in academia.

First of all, are DO's disadvantaged when it comes to research opportunities against MDs?

Secondly, where is a good place to look in order to get involved with research as a premed? I've tried to go through the magnet hospital that I work at but the closest thing ive come to find are Mortality and Morbidity cases, which while very interesting to me, is not research.

Thank you

What type of research are you referring to? Basic science? Clinical? Translational? Protected time 95% or 5%?

 

[RNtoMD87]

I'm honestly not knowledgable enough to know yet. I just really love science, and I don't want to shoot myself in the foot so that after I practice as an MD/DO for a bit I could go to the academic side. I've always had a passion for teaching and education. I really enjoy that part of nursing, but I would love to do it in a more focused manner to more scientific minded individuals.

 

[Lucca]

5

So in your opinion, is it more useful to join a clinical research lab while in undergrad which will allow you more opportunities for quicker posters/publications or a wet lab that exposes you to more basic science at the cost of potentially fewer opportunities for posters/pubs?

Depends on your goals/interests IMO. A lot of clinical research that undergrads do does not involve designing experiments or testing hypotheses which are key things one expects someone to learn from doing research. A lot of it is just rote data collection. That said, you don’t need to have a research heavy app to be successful. I personally recommend everyone start out in basic science and give it a shot, at least for a summer at first. If you don’t like it but want to tick the box, go to clinical research or, better yet, hypothesis-driven but not basic science research (psychology, anthropology, sociology?).

If your goal is to be a physician scientist and you know this already (you want to spend more time doing research than seeing patients in the long run) then go for basic science 100% of the way. No matter how many clinical publications you get, you will never impress a basic scientist or translational scientist with a purely clinical CV.

In med school, most students do purely clinical research.

 

[RNtoMD87]

I think I would like to do studies on workout methods, supplementation, and other fitness related things honestly.

 

[LizzyM]

I think I would like to do studies on workout methods, supplementation, and other fitness related things honestly.

Frankly, the work in that field is being done by kinesiologists and exercise physiologists, not physicians. Just sayin' .
See Grand Forks Human Nutrition Research Center : USDA ARS

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I always hate these threads because there are so many different definitions of the term “academic medicine.” You have to define what you mean. Do you want to be a physician scientist where you teach classes, do research 70% of the time, and do like 20% clinical? Or do you mean like where you are adjunct clinical faculty where you do essentially 100% clinical work and the academic part is educating residents and medical students as they are on your service.

Both are considered “academic medicine,” yet both are very different and will require much different pathways.

 

[Goro]

I'm interested in being a physician who is a scientist rather than a physician scientist, if that makes sense. My research (at least in undergrad -- I want to move away from this in my gap year and beyond) was hypothesis driven nutrition research, but did not involve any standard biochemical techniques like PCR, etc. Rather, we were just given some biochemical data which we analyzed to make mathematical models. How would you characterize this?

We expect all physicians to be scientists. Here's what two SDNers have to say on the subject:
The wise DrMidlife on research: “you've preferably had some exposure to research so you can be convinced that Wakefield used malicious dirtbag methods and is not the savior of the world's children.”

The wise Crayola227 on research: So tired about the whining over the foundation of knowledge that is expected in a physician. We're applied scientists ffs. Own that. If you can't own it and take pride in it, gtfo.

 

[RNtoMD87]

Well my dream job would be working as a doctor for MMA fighters etc, and I also think austere medicine is fascinating and research in those areas would be extremely interesting to me.


And I would eventually like to solely teach. After I'm much older, wiser and more experienced.

 

[LizzyM]

Well my dream job would be working as a doctor for MMA fighters etc, and I also think austere medicine is fascinating and research in those areas would be extremely interesting to me.


And I would eventually like to solely teach. After I'm much older, wiser and more experienced.

There are very, very few physicians who make a living just teaching. I do know of one; she left medicine and teaches HS chemistry. 😕
Most physicians on a medical school payroll continue to treat patients, may or may not do research and teach/supervise trainees and may have responsibility as a course director for didactic sessions for trainees or courses taught to medical students. It would be very rare for someone to do only teaching in a med school setting. There might be some physicians who take on more administrative roles (dean of students, dean of admissions, dean of academic affairs) but those folks, at least the ones I know, have continued to practice medicine as well.

 

[gyngyn]

And I would eventually like to solely teach. After I'm much older, wiser and more experienced.

I know of no one who works in an academic setting who only teaches.
You can practice and supervise residents and/or practice and teach medical students.
You can do research and practice and teach, or just research and teach (rare).
The only people I know in medicine who only teach are the (retired) saints who volunteer to teach the medical students.

 

[RNtoMD87]

There are very, very few physicians who make a living just teaching. I do know of one; she left medicine and teaches HS chemistry. 😕
Most physicians on a medical school payroll continue to treat patients, may or may not do research and teach/supervise trainees and may have responsibility as a course director for didactic sessions for trainees or courses taught to medical students. It would be very rare for someone to do only teaching in a med school setting. There might be some physicians who take on more administrative roles (dean of students, dean of admissions, dean of academic affairs) but those folks, at least the ones I know, have continued to practice medicine as well.

I'm not against practicing but I would like in my later years for the vast majority of what I do to be teaching. Earlier on I just want to learn all that I can. I enjoy learning just for the sake of learning and to teach people interested in learning. Knowledge and achievement is pretty much my sole joy in life. I don't care about money, relationships, etc.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I know of no one who works in an academic setting who only teaches.
You can practice and supervise residents and/or practice and teach medical students.
You can do research and practice and teach or just research and teach (rare).
The only people I know in medicine who only teach are the (retired) saints who volunteer to teach the medical students.

Or the pathologists who stop doing clinical pathology and just teach path. That's the only field where I've seen an actual MD/DO only teach without even a day or two of clinic time a week.

 

[gyngyn]

Or the pathologists who stop doing clinical pathology and just teach path. That's the only field where I've seen an actual MD/DO only teach without even a day or two of clinic time a week.

And they are not retired/volunteer?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

And they are not retired/volunteer?

Oops, missed that you had that caveat in your post. They are paid faculty so not volunteers but are retired from clinical practice.

 

[gyngyn]

Oops, missed that you had that caveat in your post. They are paid faculty so not volunteers but are retired from clinical practice.

Wait a minute, you are right. In the old days some of these guys got tenure and even though they no longer have grants they can't be let go.

 

[RNtoMD87]

And they are not retired/volunteer?

As long as I can afford to get by on what I made through paid work earlier, I'd love to volunteer to teach when I'm older. It's one of the few things I've enjoyed in my life. I've just never taught anything that.. deep. Which excites me. I was a military police weapons instructor in the Army, I volunteer, teaching about diabetes prevention, and I've taught various other small things but to teach something like medicine would really make me feel accomplished.


I love the challenge of converting raw information into something understandable by others. "If you can't explain it to a first grader you don't truly understand it."

 

[LizzyM]

As long as I can afford to get by on what I made through paid work earlier, I'd love to volunteer to teach when I'm older. It's one of the few things I've enjoyed in my life. I've just never taught anything that.. deep. Which excites me. I was a military police weapons instructor in the Army, I volunteer, teaching about diabetes prevention, and I've taught various other small things but to teach something like medicine would really make me feel accomplished.


I love the challenge of converting raw information into something understandable by others. "If you can't explain it to a first grader you don't truly understand it."

All well and good but in medicine you can't teach what you don't know and you would have to keep up with advances in clinical care which would be difficult if you were no longer learning and doing in a clinical setting.

Maybe we are talking past one another. Medical school instruction is not like nursing education. Most faculty lecture on a niche area for a few hours per year with one faculty member taking the lead in organizing a series of lectures that fit together to cover the material. Some facutly are small group facilitators and go over a pre-packaged set of cases with a group of students. These faculty really don't "teach", the buzz word now in higher education is "self-directed learning" and the students are motivated to learn the material that is presented to them and apply information provided in lecture in cases that put the basic science information in clinical context. Some of the faculty who take these small group facilitator "jobs" are retired physicians who volunteer as a way to remain involved and to bring along the next generation. More power to you if you want to do that after you retire.