Interested in OMS specializing: best school to attend?

[hermey_12]

I am in the process of choosing a dental school starting in the fall of 2006. For those of you in OMS residencies or in the process of applying for one, do you feel that certain dental schools provide student a better opportunity to go on and specialize in OMS? What do you know about the following dental schools: Washington, Colorado, Oregon, Iowa, Nebraska, Minnesota. Any information you could provide me would be greatly appreciated.

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[Unemployed]

to that note: would going to pacific be a mistake if you have the slightest interest in OMFS or endo?

 

[Audio]

Harvard, UPenn, Columbia.

 

[drhobie7]

Going to one dental school over another isn't going to make or break you or your specialty app. In fact, it could be argued that going to a 'middle tier' school is better than an 'upper tier' school because if you do well on your boards you won't have as much intraclass competition. You can be a big fish in a small pond rather than a medium sized fish in a medium sized pond. Any dental school will give you the opportunity to achieve your goals. After acceptance, it's on your shoulders to earn that residency spot.

 

[howui3]

UCLA or Harvard are great schools for specializing. Students from there get great board scores.

 

[darius99]

UCLA or Harvard are great schools for specializing. Students from there get great board scores.

they also have some of the highest undergrad gpa/dat scores too, so u could say its the students and not the school

 

[schrottypie]

Why do you want to be an oral surgeon? If you're interested in oral surgery, you should consider perio. It's an up and coming specialty with lots of good stuff to offer...Also, it's dominated by women, so if you're into that, it's all German.

 

[toofache32]

Guys go into OMS from every school each year. It's not the school.....it's your class rank, board scores, and GPA.

 

[dat_student]

to that note: would going to pacific be a mistake if you have the slightest interest in OMFS or endo?

I know a Pacific graduate who got into an OMFS program in TX. For OMFS, you may be better off choosing a dental school that has a medical school. Medical schools are ranked. So, you can take a look at US News Ranking to see which school may be better for OMFS. I think each school prefers to accepts its own students...In California UCSF and UCLA are great for OMFS. In the US, Harvard, UPENN, UCSF, Columbia & UCLA are good choices. You can't go wrong with any of them.

I am not sure which school is good for endo. Someone told me that Boston has a great endo program. I am not really sure about this one.

 

[toofache32]

...For OMFS, you may be better off choosing a dental school that has a medical school. Medical schools are ranked. So, you can take a look at US News Ranking to see which school may be better for OMFS...

I don't understand what a medical school has to do with OMFS. Can you elaborate?

 

[dat_student]

I don't understand what a medical school has to do with OMFS. Can you elaborate?

Sure, you get DDS & MD. I believe you spend 2 years in medical school to get your MD and your surgeries are done in hospitals, not in dental school. I may be wrong.

 

[toofache32]

Sure, you get DDS & MD. I believe you spend 2 years in medical school to get your MD and your surgeries are done in hospitals, not in dental school. I may be wrong.

Only 40% of OMFS programs even offer an MD because it's optional for OMFS. Also, when you're in dental school it doesn't matter if there's a med school with it or not, because you really have no interaction with the med school. Also, some schools tend to give one spot to their own grads, but definately not across the board. And you won't know the quality of the OMFS program while you're applying to dental schools.

And while many surgeries are done in hospitals, many are also done in the OMFS clinics because they do their own anesthesia.

 

[dexadental]

Penn is a great school with over 85% of graduates entering speciality programs...I am really considering OMFS so of course upenn is my top choice!

 

[dat_student]

Penn is a great school with over 85% of graduates entering speciality programs...I am really considering OMFS so of course upenn is my top choice!

I very much love UPENN. It is a great school. No doubt. 85% don't enter specialty programs.

UPENN: Self-Reported Plans of SDM Graduates 2002-05

........................................................2002......2003......2004......2005
AEGD.................................................15..........12.........4..........8
AEGD (Armed Services)..........................0...........4...........0..........5
GPR....................................................32..........27.........33........25
GPR (Armed Services)............................4............3..........1..........1
Gov. Services (Armed Services)...............4............1..........5..........0
Private Practice....................................22...........25........34.........36
Public Health........................................1.............0...1(PH & Pedo).0
-----------------
Specialty - Endodontics..........................0.............6..........4..........5
Specialty - Oral & Maxillofacial Surgery.......7.............8..........9..........6
Specialty - Oral Surgery Internship.............1.............1..........1..........0
Specialty - Orthodontics...........................8............13.........14........10
Specialty - Pedodontics............................3.............8..........5..........5
Specialty - Periodontics (Perio)..................5.............5...........2..........4
Specialty - Perio-Pros...............................0.............1..........1..........0
Specialty - Prosthodontics.........................5.............8..........3..........6
Specialty - Oral Medicine...........................0.............1..........0..........2
Teaching.................................................1............2..........1...........6
Undecided...............................................1.............4..........6...........9
TOTAL..................................................109...........129......124........128

What worries me is the undecided category???!!!! What does that mean? Does it mean the undecided students could get accepted but didn't apply??!!!
2005:
38 (if Oral Medicine is a specialty) / 128 = 29.68%
36 (excluding Oral Medicine) / 128 = 28.125%

 

[bkwash]

Yeah I was concerned about that high number of undecided graduates. In addition, why couldn't they give an actual report of the places students went instead of self reported? That is not accurate. Penn is on a regular grading system with "honors" when you get above 95 or so. This may be a mechanism to easily decide which students get into specialty programs and the bottom 50% of the class may be screwed....

 

[dat_student]

...why couldn't they give an actual report of the places students went instead of self reported? That is not accurate...

Exactly. I don't understand that either. No school has given me an actual report.

...and the bottom 50% of the class may be screwed....

In my opinion, the bottom 50% of any school are screwed.

 

[bkwash]

the only school that has given me an actual report was Harvard...

 

[dat_student]

the only school that has given me an actual report was Harvard...

Can you please post the actual report for us?


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Here is another thing to think about:

Each year, there are only 99 open positions for OMFS. Again, some schools don't accept non-residents. Some applicants apply after a few years in practice or post-GPR/AEGD. In 2004, NINE UPENN students wanted to pursue OMFS. Assuming every school/program accepts non-residents that means 9 / 99 = 9% of all oral surgeons are UPENN graduates. That's about 1 in 10. That's a very high number.

 

[bkwash]

yep, just gotta wait till i get home I am out of town for the holidays.

 

[dexadental]

Not sure where those stats from, but they look as if they actually came from an official website. I do know that Penn graduates go into more specialties than many, many, other schools, which is a positive thing. I do believe that as long as you can pull the grades, build the connections, and have the personality, you can enter a specialty program regardless of the dental school you attend. I just think Penn makes this very easy to do, and helps you achieve this in a different way than most schools (ie. non traditional curriculum, first year clinical experience, etc.). This probably accounts for their high rate of graduates entering oral surgery and other programs. Most of the students I met on my interview tour were entering specialty programs, or in the middle of applying to them. Most of the students I know here at UF (seniors in dental school within the clinics) are planning to enter private practice. Just a first hand account of the differences I've seen.

 

[seablaster]

Here is another thing to think about:

Each year, there are only 99 open positions for OMFS. Again, some schools don't accept non-residents. Some applicants apply after a few years in practice or post-GPR/AEGD. In 2004, NINE UPENN students wanted to pursue OMFS. Assuming every school/program accepts non-residents that means 9 / 99 = 9% of all oral surgeons are UPENN graduates. That's about 1 in 10. That's a very high number.

I'm not quite sure your numbers are accurate. Last year, I believe there were 176 first year OMFS positions total from around 95 programs. When you refer to residency status, some schools may not accept non-U.S. residents, but what state you are from doesn't restrict you (as far as I know). I urge all of you to be careful in selecting a school based on a specialty you wish to pursue. The vast majority of dental students will be practicing general dentistry, and if the thought of that makes you uneasy you really shouldn't apply. Dental school is a marathon and it is difficult to attain the numbers you need for competitive specialties. The numbers that matter the most are class rank and board scores. If you have superb numbers in both the school you attended is mostly irrelevant, however I will concede that different schools give varying amounts of time off to study for boards. I would also be sure to listen to Toofache because you'll find very few sources of information as reliable.

 

[Sprgrover]

I very much love UPENN. It is a great school. No doubt. 85% don't enter specialty programs.

Careful there, you're selectively pooling what you regard as a specialty. As other threads have pointed out what is reported in such figures for Penn is any additional schooling (aka specialized training) or residency programs (such as Oral Medicine) beyond the four years of dental school - so that includes GPR's and AEGD's and not just ortho and OMFS.

 

[toofache32]

Careful there, you're selectively pooling what you regard as a specialty. As other threads have pointed out what is reported in such figures for Penn is any additional schooling (aka specialized training) or residency programs (such as Oral Medicine) beyond the four years of dental school - so that includes GPR's and AEGD's and not just ortho and OMFS.

Exactly. It is known that schools will use GPR/AEGD programs to skew these numbers for applicants who have no idea what a GPR is. And "undecided" means "general dentist" by default.

 

[egots]

interesting thing thing to me is tha tlooking at those numbers less then a 1/3rd of upenn students go 2 specialty...but at the same time everyone i talked with at upenn told me not to go there if i dont plan on specializing (that was about 10-15 ppl)...so does that mean about 70% of the students arent competitive enough to get into specialty programs?

 

[toofache32]

...so does that mean about 70% of the students arent competitive enough to get into specialty programs?

This is generally true everywhere. Your board scores and class rank are what get you into specialties. GPA to a lesser extent, because class rank says more than GPA. Where you go to school has very little to do with acceptance, at least in oral surgery.

It doesn't matter where you go to school if you can't do better than 70% of your classmates.

 

[toofache32]

Each year, there are only 99 open positions for OMFS. Again, some schools don't accept non-residents. Some applicants apply after a few years in practice or post-GPR/AEGD. In 2004, NINE UPENN students wanted to pursue OMFS. Assuming every school/program accepts non-residents that means 9 / 99 = 9% of all oral surgeons are UPENN graduates. That's about 1 in 10. That's a very high number.

Check out this PDF:

http://www.aaoms.org/residency/PDF/OMS Program List 10.10.05.pdf

The non-military programs will add up to somewhere around 170-180 positions available. It's slightly skewed since a few programs are accredited for 3 residents yearly (Alabama) but actually only take 2.

What do you mean by non-residents? Are you talking US-citizen?

 

[Bcat]

to that note: would going to pacific be a mistake if you have the slightest interest in OMFS or endo?

I dont thing going to pacific would ever be a mistake...as long as you keep up the gpa/rank/board scores...When it comes to specializing it does not matter where you went to school.

We have two endo residents here from UOP.

 

[dat_student]

Check out this PDF:

http://www.aaoms.org/residency/PDF/OMS Program List 10.10.05.pdf

The non-military programs will add up to somewhere around 170-180 positions available. It's slightly skewed since a few programs are accredited for 3 residents yearly (Alabama) but actually only take 2.

Thanks so much. I didn't know that some medical schools (e.g.Mayo, Cornell, Mount Sinai, Albert Einstein) have an OMFS program. I also didn't know that universities that have no medical school (e.g. Pacific) can have an OMFS program. I learned so much. Thanks.

What do you mean by non-residents? Are you talking US-citizen?

For example, a California resident/student who is applying to an OMFS program in Alabama.

 

[toofache32]

For example, a California resident/student who is applying to an OMFS program in Alabama.

Residencies don't care one bit where you're from....why would they? This isn't a tuition thing like with dental school. It's a paying job we're talking about.

 

[Unemployed]

I dont thing going to pacific would ever be a mistake...as long as you keep up the gpa/rank/board scores...When it comes to specializing it does not matter where you went to school.

We have two endo residents here from UOP.

Thanks. Does anyone know if Pacific gives you significantly less time to study for the Boards, than say Penn or any other research-oriented schools? If so, I have the rest of the year off before I hopefully start school...should I just get the Step 1 books and start studying. I really want to go to Pacific, but schools like UCSF are luring me in with the claim-to-fame for specialization. I am fine with being a GP, but I just dont want to go to Pacific and have the stress of maintaining a top 5-10 rank, when I hear you can get away with 25-30 at other schools.

 

[drhobie7]

I am fine with being a GP, but I just dont want to go to Pacific and have the stress of maintaining a top 5-10 rank, when I hear you can get away with 25-30 at other schools.

Getting into a specialty is stressfull at any school. There are no guarantees. You can't get around working hard. Consider this, it may be harder to be in the top 20 at UCSF than the top 10 at UOP. But I think we're overanalyzing this. You should go to the school you like the best.

 

[Audio]

Yeah, and is being a general denstist THAT bad. I would love to be a specialist but, I would be so happy to be a general dentist as well.

 

[Unemployed]

Yeah, and is being a general denstist THAT bad. I would love to be a specialist but, I would be so happy to be a general dentist as well.

I agree with you. People need to enter dental school happy to work as a GP. If not, you are in for a shock when you don't get accepted into a specialty program.

 

[dexadental]

Yes people need to be happy enough to be satisfied with a career in general dentistry, but I believe that those who go into dental school wishing to specialize and work hard, will get there. I've never been a believer of just giving up, I think if you get denied the first time, but truly want it, you'll keep applying and eventually get it. Quite a few people do this...getting denied from a speciality is not the end of the road...for some it is a wake up call.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Rather than relying on "self-reported stats," predental student would be wise to seek the advice of actual dental students, or actual dental residents. We have many of those posting on SDN and in this very thread. Their advice is typically much more stellar than any stat page you will find.

For example, this post caries a wealth of information:

"Your board scores and class rank are what get you into specialties...Where you go to school has very little to do with acceptance, at least in oral surgery."

You may not believe it, but it's true.

 

[JavadiCavity]

Thanks. Does anyone know if Pacific gives you significantly less time to study for the Boards, than say Penn or any other research-oriented schools? If so, I have the rest of the year off before I hopefully start school...should I just get the Step 1 books and start studying. I really want to go to Pacific, but schools like UCSF are luring me in with the claim-to-fame for specialization. I am fine with being a GP, but I just dont want to go to Pacific and have the stress of maintaining a top 5-10 rank, when I hear you can get away with 25-30 at other schools.

Pacific doesn't block out a specific period of time for students to study the boards. However, there are a couple days a week that 2nd year students have 1/2 a day as self-study for microbiology. I'm not sure if 2nd year students use this time to study for the boards, but I imagine I will use it for that. 2nd year students are taking the boards on Dec. 5 (most of them are). They've been trying to squeeze in studying around treating patients and attending classes. I know from talking to them, that MOST of them are very stressed about it right now.

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

I still dont understand the fascination people have with schools such as Penn and Columbia with their high specialization rates......first of all, they give no indication on the amount of people applying.......Sure there are lots of people from these schools going into specialties because almost every student probably applies to one.....its just relative.

Also, why would u goto a school where 99% of your class also wants to specialize???? It doesnt make sense to me!!! It would be much harder to stand out and much more competitive.

Sure 20% of people from these schools might specialize, but what about those 80% who didnt get in right away??? they must be kicking themsevles in the butt, cause they thought by going to a "name" school was their ticket into a speciality....

Listen to the proper advice here....goto the school where u best fit....also consider clincial experience (cause you may find out that as a predent who has never done a root canal, endo may not be for you and wants to become a GP) and debtload, cause money dont grow on trees.

Work hard, get a respectable class rank, make connections (via externships and such), get good board scores......thats the recipe for specialization....name of school means squat.

 

[toofache32]

Just an anecdotal example:

I went to the state dental school in Tennessee where I would classify the basic sciences as mediocre. My first exam was histology...I was one of only 3 people to fail out of 83 in the class. Then I got religion about studying hard. I really busted my tail from then on. I finisheded that first semester in the bottom 50%, but then I steadily moved up in class rank each semester to graduate in the top 10%. Then I pulled a wrong tooth in oral surgery clinic, but that's another story. Then I still matched into my 1st choice oral surgery program, and scored above the national average on the medical boards.

There are guys in my program from Columbia and many other schools, but there is only one common denominator....we busted our tails and studied/worked hard in dental school.

 

[SuperTrooper]

Just an anecdotal example:

I went to the state dental school in Tennessee where I would classify the basic sciences as mediocre. My first exam was histology...I was one of only 3 people to fail out of 83 in the class. Then I got religion about studying hard. I really busted my tail from then on. I finisheded that first semester in the bottom 50%, but then I steadily moved up in class rank each semester to graduate in the top 10%. Then I pulled a wrong tooth in oral surgery clinic, but that's another story. Then I still matched into my 1st choice oral surgery program, and scored above the national average on the medical boards.

There are guys in my program from Columbia and many other schools, but there is only one common denominator....we busted our tails and studied/worked hard in dental school.

toofache, your story brought a tear to my eye.

P.S. How have the columbia kids managed in your oral surgery program. Also, have you had any duds from harvard?

 

[toofache32]

toofache, your story brought a tear to my eye.

P.S. How have the columbia kids managed in your oral surgery program. Also, have you had any duds from harvard?

The Columbia kids are being whipped into shape nicely. Especially since we showed them what a forceps is for.

No Harvard guys here...hell they can't even match into their own program.

 

[I'mFillingFine]

Ha!

Back to what some others were saying, if it's important to you to be an excellent general dentist first regardless of your plans, both UConn and UPenn said that to be their goals. Some schools let you cater your predoctoral program towards one specialty (therefore lessening your general abilities) while others really want you to get practice in all of them (therefore, potentially spreading you out thin and reducing your board scores so that you're not competitive for specialties), but if you're not exactly sure, go for one in the middle! UCONN specifically said that they produce general dentists before even thinking of advising students for specialties....