Internship (and residency) for overseas students

[entropy1]

Hey, I'm a current vet student in Australia and I'm kinda interested in doing an internship and possibly a residency in small animal medicine. However I'm a bit confused about a few things. my questions are:

- how does a uni/vet hospital rank you on the VIRMP thing? is it just GPA? is it experience? what institutions require the North American Veterinary Licensing Examination first? will they look at the NAVLE results more or my GPA etc

- there seems to be a lot of discussion about different unis etc, some a ranked a lot higher, is there a formal ranking? or is it just opinion?

- how compeditive is the intership places? Can i just apply via VIRMP or do i need to go there etc?

i'll prob have more later

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[entropy1]

Also, what about living costs? How much are interns/residents payed? is it enough to survive?

 

[MonkeyJunction]

Well interns are not paid very well (you make more working at Mcdonalds) and please don't let one of your pets get sick. You don't even get the student discount (at least at NCSU).

 

[AuburnPreVet]

The pay rate is meant to be enough to "survive" but not much more. Due to the number of hours you're going to work - it will work out to be less than minimum wage in most cases.

In regards to the exact criteria for ranking canidates ... I think it's going to vary from one institution to the next. Some may put more emphasis on perfect grades while others are more interested in meeting with you & making sure you are personable and will "fit in" well. . . etc.

 

[Bill59]

- how does a uni/vet hospital rank you on the VIRMP thing? is it just GPA? is it experience? what institutions require the North American Veterinary Licensing Examination first? will they look at the NAVLE results more or my GPA etc

Ranking of candidates is based on class rank/GPA, letters of recommendations and other references, experience, and letter of intent. There was a survey of this published in JAVMA a few years back but that's the general idea.

Most university programs don't require you to have a state license but a few do. Most private practice programs require a license. The programs don't consider NAVE scores.

there seems to be a lot of discussion about different unis etc, some a ranked a lot higher, is there a formal ranking? or is it just opinion?

I'm not quite sure what you're asking but there's certainly no universally agreed on ranking of intern programs from best to worst.

how compeditive is the intership places? Can i just apply via VIRMP or do i need to go there etc?

Competitive, university programs more so than private practice. Most don't require an interview, but at some programs it really helps if you interview, provided you interview well. Some programs don't take interviews.

The pay sucks, but if you think of this as a job, you're on the wrong track. It's a training program, just like school.

Cost of living obviously varies with the region.

 

[Nexx]

A friend of mine is at Purdue doing a residency and making about $20k/year. Which is about 2/3rds - 1/2 of what we are told we could make in Perth as a first year grad.

That said, Perth (and Australia) is a heck of a lot more expensive to live in than many places in the US. Although as people have said it's a lot of long hours for several years. As a side note, you could always take the NAVLE (offered in Sydney and they are trying to get it here in Perth too) and get licensed in the US so you could do relief (locum) work on the weekends to make some extra $$$ should you need it.

 

[Bill59]

There's not much chance you will be doing any relief work when you're an intern. On the few weekends you aren't on call or coming in to take care of patients, you will be sleeping, studying or just glad you have a day off. Besides, many programs don't allow moonlighting.

 

[entropy1]

Ranking of candidates is based on class rank/GPA, letters of recommendations and other references, experience, and letter of intent. There was a survey of this published in JAVMA a few years back but that's the general idea.

ok i'll have a look for that

Competitive, university programs more so than private practice. Most don't require an interview, but at some programs it really helps if you interview, provided you interview well. Some programs don't take interviews.

how compeditive is it? do alot of people miss out or can they always find a place at a lesser practice etc? whats the ballpark GPA range?

The pay sucks, but if you think of this as a job, you're on the wrong track. It's a training program, just like school.

ok, i realise that. just making sure it's enough to survive an i dont need to rely on savings etc

 

[Nexx]

There's not much chance you will be doing any relief work when you're an intern. On the few weekends you aren't on call or coming in to take care of patients, you will be sleeping, studying or just glad you have a day off. Besides, many programs don't allow moonlighting.

Yeah sorry... was speaking more of residency than internship. Which again is program dependent, but not out of the question to do weekend work.

 

[Bill59]

how compeditive is it? do alot of people miss out or can they always find a place at a lesser practice etc? whats the ballpark GPA range?

Last year I think about 65% applicants matched. 35% didn't match, although some of these probably later picked up an internship outside the match. Realize that not every graduate enters the match and in general the higher ranking students are more likely to try for internships.

As for GPA, for a university program most that match are 3.5 or better. We will sometimes rank someone with a lower GPA if they did really well on an externship or have outsanding references. I'm not sure about Australia, but in the US grade inflation is pretty rampant, so it may not be accurate to compare GPAs to Australia. Class rank is probably better.

BTW, here's the paper I mentioned:
Davidson HJ. Selection methods and criteria for choosing veterinary interns.
J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2005 Jul 1;227(1):55-60.

 

[entropy1]

yeah ok. i've been doing some research at the australian equvilent (membership and fellowship) are a bit different. Your not allowed to even do the membership test until atleast 4 years experience (which then requires another 4-6 yrs for fellowship)

and i emailed one uni bout a masters and they also recommened a few years before starting.

So how common is doing an intership (+ residnecy) immediately after graduation? If it's not,why are they so concerned about GPA?

 

[Bill59]

So how common is doing an intership (+ residnecy) immediately after graduation? If it's not,why are they so concerned about GPA?

Probably about 25% of new graduates do an internship. As for GPA, it's an easy way to rank applicants and most programs feel that GPA at least to some extent predicts good performance in an internship. Basically good student = good intern.

GPA/class rank is certainly not the only consideration. References from clinical faculty are probably just as important at most programs.

 

[chapaquito]

I just read the express newspaper today in Maryland,the note quotes that a donkey has been incarcerated in the same place that they incarcerate the drunk drivers in a town named Gutierrez in Mexico,because the authorities claim that the donkey kicked to persons,and that the will release the donkey only when the owner will pay damages to the persons kicked by the donkey.I am so upset for this inhumane treatment of the animals,I am a student of Medicine,but many times I think that the true people are the animals and we are the animals.Perhaps ulteriorly same race superior to us or alienigen entities will abuse of us,who Knows,just a tough.

 

[birdvet2006]

Just to give you my experience -

I went to an overseas school (Glasgow). I applied for an internship through VIRMP and did not match. My mistake is that I only applied to academic (vet schools) and a famous large private practice (Angell). I had only visited one university that I had applied to (while I was a vet student). I did not match and was *seriously* disappointed. Oh well - on goes life! So I did find an internship after the match date. It was in a private practice in my home state.

I made $30k in northern California as an intern. I had no problems living off this, but I did postpone the majority of my student loans (deferment/forbearance)...accumulating a large amount of interest. I had NO time on my weekends or days off to work elsewhere, and was not permitted to based on my employment contract.

An internship is somewhat "slave labour" (some places are worse than others). But I loved it - you just need to remember that you are getting a LOT out of it, and in a sense you're paying your internship practice for your training (which is priceless, believe me).

Why didn't I match? Well, I think a big part is that Glasgow doesn't have GPAs OR class rank. How are places supposed to compare you to everyone else? Also, I didn't really visit small animal departments at any unis...I spent time w/the exotics department but it just wasn't enough (if you ask me). In hindsight, I'm glad I did a private practice internship over an academic one. The interns at my vet school didn't look like they were getting the caseload that I got as an intern (I realise caseload isn't everything).

 

[hpoo]

hello everybody
i need some information about how to apply for internship.
i am graduated from foreign country
i would be appreciate any kind of information or deadline

 

[hpoo]

Just to give you my experience -

I went to an overseas school (Glasgow). I applied for an internship through VIRMP and did not match. My mistake is that I only applied to academic (vet schools) and a famous large private practice (Angell). I had only visited one university that I had applied to (while I was a vet student). I did not match and was *seriously* disappointed. Oh well - on goes life! So I did find an internship after the match date. It was in a private practice in my home state.

I made $30k in northern California as an intern. I had no problems living off this, but I did postpone the majority of my student loans (deferment/forbearance)...accumulating a large amount of interest. I had NO time on my weekends or days off to work elsewhere, and was not permitted to based on my employment contract.

An internship is somewhat "slave labour" (some places are worse than others). But I loved it - you just need to remember that you are getting a LOT out of it, and in a sense you're paying your internship practice for your training (which is priceless, believe me).

Why didn't I match? Well, I think a big part is that Glasgow doesn't have GPAs OR class rank. How are places supposed to compare you to everyone else? Also, I didn't really visit small animal departments at any unis...I spent time w/the exotics department but it just wasn't enough (if you ask me). In hindsight, I'm glad I did a private practice internship over an academic one. The interns at my vet school didn't look like they were getting the caseload that I got as an intern (I realise caseload isn't everything).

would u please give me some guidance to apply for internship in ca?
appreciate

 

[Bill59]

hpoo, start here:
veterinary internship and residency matching program

 

[hpoo]

A friend of mine is at Purdue doing a residency and making about $20k/year. Which is about 2/3rds - 1/2 of what we are told we could make in Perth as a first year grad.

That said, Perth (and Australia) is a heck of a lot more expensive to live in than many places in the US. Although as people have said it's a lot of long hours for several years. As a side note, you could always take the NAVLE (offered in Sydney and they are trying to get it here in Perth too) and get licensed in the US so you could do relief (locum) work on the weekends to make some extra $$$ should you need it.

hi nexx
purdue is in y home state,and i want to do internship there.i called them but the were not really helpfull.i do not know is it betterrr to call uni or just go through virmp?some advise?
also,is there deadline for applying?

 

[codorna]

Why didn't I match? Well, I think a big part is that Glasgow doesn't have GPAs OR class rank. How are places supposed to compare you to everyone else?

Isn't there a way to calculate your GPA or something equivalent if your university doesn't have GPAs? Couldn't you use your grades to calculate your GPA? I'm asking that because my school also doesn't use it and I want to apply for an internship next year.

 

[Bill59]

Isn't there a way to calculate your GPA or something equivalent if your university doesn't have GPAs? Couldn't you use your grades to calculate your GPA?

Not if it's pass/fail or something equivalent.

 

[NSC09]

Hi everyone, I have been observing this forum for a while and now it's time to ask my questions.
I am a foreign graduate from a european country. I moved to the US four years ago and I worked as a vet tech in a very busy 24/7 small animal hospital ever since. I'm enrolled in the ECFVG, I passed the BCSE, the NAVLE and I am about to take the CPE. I really want to do an internship and then possibly specialize doing a residency. To increase my chance to get accepted for an internship and pass the CPE I'm taking clinical rotations at one of the vet schools that offer the Instructional clinical year for foreign graduates. It's really expansive and difficult to be here spending money rather than making it to survive but I think this is the right thing to do at the moment. I'm in the process of applying for externships and then ranking the places that I'll be able to visit before the deadlines of the matching program (virmp.org).
I would really appreciate suggestions about the following issues:
-Should I try to visit all of the hospitals that i mean to apply for considering that I have very limited breaks from my clinics?
-Should I apply to 7-8 institutions rather than 2 or 3?
-Should I apply mostly to private practices rather than vet schools or vice versa, considering that my training is not "conventional" and I don't have a GPA to be compared to the other brilliant american students fresh from graduation?
-And, most importantly,what happens if I don't match?
Sorry for the lengthy question and thanks.

 

[Bill59]

1. It's difficult if not impossible to visit all of the programs you're interested in. In fact, some don't even take interviews. But I think it's always good to visit as many as you can. Not only does it give the program director a chance to meet you but it gives you a chance to learn more about the program. Doing a working externship can be even better, provided you do a good job.

2. The more programs you apply to the more likely you are to match. However, don't apply to a program you don't want to go to.

3. Again, if there is a program you would rather be at compared to not doing an internship, apply there.

4. If you don't match you have several options. There are a few programs that's won't match (mostly private practices) so you can try to get on there after the match. Otherwise, try to do something to strengthen your application and apply again next year.

 

[NSC09]

1. It's difficult if not impossible to visit all of the programs you're interested in. In fact, some don't even take interviews. But I think it's always good to visit as many as you can. Not only does it give the program director a chance to meet you but it gives you a chance to learn more about the program. Doing a working externship can be even better, provided you do a good job.

2. The more programs you apply to the more likely you are to match. However, don't apply to a program you don't want to go to.

3. Again, if there is a program you would rather be at compared to not doing an internship, apply there.

4. If you don't match you have several options. There are a few programs that's won't match (mostly private practices) so you can try to get on there after the match. Otherwise, try to do something to strengthen your application and apply again next year.

Thanks for your response Bill59.
What do you think about the Instructional Clinical Year?
Are you familiar with that?
Will it strengthen my applications?
Do you have any other suggestions to strengthen my applications considering my background?

 

[Bill59]

I think doing an instructional clinical year at a N. American school would be a significant advantage to any non-N. American graduate applying to N. American internships. Provided of course they do a good job during the year.

 

[sugarglider]

Hi! I'm applying for internships through VIRMP as well. Luckily, the programs that I'm applying to is very near my home. Should I visit the institution that I am applying to before or after I submit my application?

Thanks!

 

[sugarglider]

Follow up question...

When writing a letter of intent, should one mention why she does not have a close to a 4.0 GPA? Should one compensate for her average grades in the letter? Or just let them find out on their own by looking at your transcript. Thanks.

 

[Bill59]

If you're going to visit I would do it before your rank order list is due (Jan 16 this year) because it may help you decide on how you rank them. Also you want to visit before the program finishes their ranking. These are due Jan 30 but they probably finish a little before then.

It's a good idea to address any obvious deficiencies in either your letter of intent or a letter of recommendation.

 

[sugarglider]

Thanks Bill59!