interventional rads vs. interventional cards

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goobernaculum

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Do these guys step on each other's feet? I'm interested in IR, but have heard conflicting things about IR's future. Some say Interventional cards will take lots of IR's cases, but others say that IR is growing and will continue to grow. What are people's thoughts?

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I-Rads and I-Cards are the future of medicine. (I-Cards isn't going to do the peripheral stuff that IR can, and IR will stay out of the heart). It's surgery that has the bleak outlook.
 
Originally posted by LuckyMD2b
I-Rads and I-Cards are the future of medicine. (I-Cards isn't going to do the peripheral stuff that IR can, and IR will stay out of the heart). It's surgery that has the bleak outlook.

I-Cards already does plenty of peripheral vascular stuff, though they don't typically do the other peripheral stuff that IR does (biopsy, drainage procedures, etc). Will likely move in on the cerebrovascular stuff next. Definitely some competition between the two. Don?t think IR will be doing PCI anytime soon (at least I hope not).
 
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Originally posted by docjr
I-Cards already does plenty of peripheral vascular stuff, though they don't typically do the other peripheral stuff that IR does (biopsy, drainage procedures, etc). Will likely move in on the cerebrovascular stuff next. Definitely some competition between the two. Don?t think IR will be doing PCI anytime soon (at least I hope not).

It doesn't matter if IR wants to do PCI since cardiologists will always ultimately be the ones deciding who gets PCI, so unless they refer patients to IR, they will never get any patients.
 
Int Cardiologists will keep PCI, for obvious reasons. Interventions on the heart are a different beast than interventions in the peripheral tree. Cardiologists control the patients. And so on and so forth.

It depends where you are in the country and whether you are talking about academic or private practice settings as to who does peripheral interventions. Most private practice Int Cardiologists have learned peripheral techniques to attract and make more business in their practice. In the academic arena, depending where you are, IR and ICards butt heads for peripheral business or ICards types leave the peripheral work to IR types.

Ultimately, IR folks will be at the behest of Cardiologists and Vascular Surgeons anyway, since it is these MDs who control the patients. I think this is the biggest thing to consider when trying to decide between the fields. The Cardiologists, above all other MDs, will control the flow of these patients.

A few years ago, I would have argued that IR would be losing the peripheral intervention business to Interventional Cardiologists. I don't think that has borne out everywhere.

As stated before, IR folks have plenty of other work using needles and catheters and guidewires that the peripheral business being shared with Cardiologists won't be loss.

Plus, I think the verdict is out on the efficacy/applicability of peripheral vascular interventions in the majority of clinical situations. There is obviously a role, it just doesn't seem as all encompassing as PCI is in the heart.
 
dear friends,
i am a new member. i just wanted to inform you that a new section has been opened in the american academy of neurology in 2000. This is interventional neurology which includes endovascular management of ischemic and hemorrhagic cerebrovascular disease (avm , aneurysms , etc) . This is a new emerging field , developing on the same lines as interventional cards.
UCLA and Cleveland Clinic along with some other hospitals have fellowships in this field.
Neurologists have realised the value of intervention. And this is how things are proceeding.
So intervention neurologists are likely to take this field in future as they also deal with in & outpatient and critical care management of cerebrovasc disease.
 
Originally posted by IMGforNeuro
dear friends,
i am a new member. i just wanted to inform you that a new section has been opened in the american academy of neurology in 2000. This is interventional neurology which includes endovascular management of ischemic and hemorrhagic cerebrovascular disease (avm , aneurysms , etc) . This is a new emerging field , developing on the same lines as interventional cards.
UCLA and Cleveland Clinic along with some other hospitals have fellowships in this field.
Neurologists have realised the value of intervention. And this is how things are proceeding.
So intervention neurologists are likely to take this field in future as they also deal with in & outpatient and critical care management of cerebrovasc disease.

I have heard about that, but I am under the impression that neurosurgeons are also interested in INR. How strong do you think their challenge is?

Moreover, I was once told that cardio thoracic surgery was the only specialty that could threaten to take heart interventions away from interventional cardiologists? Any thoughts on that?
 
It is true that neurosurgeons have fellowships in InterventionalNeuro. But there are already lots of intracranial procedures which neurosurgeons do. This includes stereotactic surgery, radiosurgery, epilepsy surgeries , endoscopy and minimally invasive neurosurg to name a few. Then there are many skull base procedures and spinalcord surgeries which will remain a neurosurgeons domain. So only a proportion of ns go into this fellowship. I mean to say that there are lots of invasive things. Having been a neurosurg resident for a few years in my country , i know for sure that no neurosurgeon can claim to be an expert at all procedures or even do them for that matter , simply because of the overwhelming number of procedures. Whereas the only intervention in neurology could be endovascular management if it continues to evolve. This is also one way of making neurology more glamorous for american med students to pursue as a career.

If we see the way modern cardiology has evolved from purely medical management to a dynamic procedure based field , neurology is moving along the same lines , although it is a few decades behind cardio . A patient coming to a cardiologist in early days would be admitted , recorded ecg and enzymes and started on medication and monitored. Now depending on indication cardiologist will proceed to cardiac cath , angioplasty if needed. In early days after angiogram it used to be the cardiac surgeons job after referral from cardiologist or internist . THE IMPORTANT THING IS THAT THE PATIENT COMES TO PHYSICIAN and if needed goes to surgeon. Modern medicine is moving in a direction when surgical fields are becoming less invasive and medical fields become more invasive.
Similarly certain congenital anomalies (ASD , VSDs) are being treated by ped cardiologists using intervention procedures.
A patient with acute stroke goes to ER and if admitted , certainly goes to a neurologist. Similarly many patients of cerebral hemorrhage who need intensive care are managed by neurologists. The mentality behind starting these fellowships is that if neurologists have to manage these cases , let them train to start intervention too. The inspiration for intervention in neurology seems to have come from the way various medical subspecialities as cardio , gastro have evolved , even anesthesia.
I was speaking to a neurology resident at UCLA . One of his senior was accepted for a stroke fellowship with intervention. This fellowship is at least 3 yrs with one year in stroke and critical care (including transcranial doppler) and 2 yrs in intervention. The duration of endovascular training is same as int.neurorad. with an added advantage of clinical exposure in cerebrovasc disease.
Within a few yrs such fellowships have also come up in UMDNJ , Wayne state univ and other places. I was told that American acad of neur is developing a fellowship core curriculum for certification to dev a career in this field. But this is the beginning.
All i am saying that neurosurgery has a vast procedural domain and if there is anything which needs a craniotomy procedure , it will certainly go to the surgeon.
Similarly cardiothoracic surgeons still do a CABG for triple vessel or L. main cor art dis and cardiologists do PTCA for other cases. So i guess the treatment modalities will depend on indication.
PLUS cardiac transplantation and the recently developing field of artificial heart implantation will always be the cardiothoracic surgeons realm.
Regarding carotid stents , it is even done by cardiologists apart from neuro , ns ,nr . But i doubt any intervention on intracranial vasculature will be attempted by cardiologists.
The scope for intervention in neuro is huge. Just an example , the treatment of vasospasm after SAH was hypertension, hemodilution and hydro(IV fluids) also called triple h therapy apart from nimodipine . There are people who have started doing stenting of MCA and intracranial angioplasty.
I think this is just a start , the real change will be felt after 5 to 10 yrs.
 
Originally posted by IMGforNeuro

Regarding carotid stents , it is even done by cardiologists apart from neuro , ns ,nr . But i doubt any intervention on intracranial vasculature will be attempted by cardiologists.
The scope for intervention in neuro is huge. Just an example , the treatment of vasospasm after SAH was hypertension, hemodilution and hydro(IV fluids) also called triple h therapy apart from nimodipine . There are people who have started doing stenting of MCA and intracranial angioplasty.
I think this is just a start , the real change will be felt after 5 to 10 yrs.

I still wouldn't be surprised to see I-Cards folks doing MCA stenting, angioplasty, etc. in the near future. Maybe even coiling. Does anyone know of any programs where IC docs are doing any neuro procedures (besides carotid stents)?
 
The reason IC do carotid angioplasty is because the carotids are major vessels directly arising from aorta , hence in close proximity to the heart which is of course the major area of cardio intervention.
However anything intracranial is a very different ball game.
Any intracranial intervention requires are very detailed knowledge of vasc anatomy of the brain including circle of Willis and perforating branches and their variations, dangerous anastomosis , cerebral blood flow and its regulation and intracranial pressure (ICP) monitoring and CSF flow. Infact the relationship of ICP , CSF flow and cerebral perfusion is complicated . Cerebrovasc dis is a very big field in itself.
Unlike peripheral vasculature which is relatively simple , intracranial vasc is very complicated and is confined to neurology ,NS and neurorad. So the probability of intervention cards doing intracranial stuff is very less , if at all , since it is much more than simply passing stents through an artery.
Secondly , the symptomatology requiring cardiac intervention is mainly chest pain and for carotid stent is TIA &/or carotid doppler showing >70 stenosis. If a patient with PTCA has restenosis then he still has chest pain which is a cardio symp and then the cardiologist will repeat angio and do PTCA or ask cardiac surgeon for CABG . But the symptomatology requiring intracranial intervention is neurologic and also depends on vessel territory , and the managements of the events before and after the procedures again is the job of neurologists or NS.
 
With regards to CT surgeons doing coronary interventions:

1. It takes years of experience and continued practice, experience and learning to be a competent and capable interventionalist, or any other procedural specialist. So you either spend all your time in a cath lab, or in the OR. You can't do both and be good at either. Nor does one physically have the time to do both.

2. Cardiologists control the patients and the equipment and the teaching for PCI. Do you actually think they might train a non-Cardiologist to do PCI? Definitely not. Do you think hospitals and institutions will credential someone not trained as an Interventional Cardiologist, just from the medicolegal standpoint alone. Nope.

3. There is more to PCI than a wire and a catheter. There is an understanding of underlying cardiopulmonary physiology, hemodynamics, and pharmacology that distinguishes PCI from open surgical intervention on the heart. There is just too much to learn for one MD to do both types of procedures..
 
This is strange. On one side I keep hearing that IR is THE hottest field growing these days (please allow the hyperbole), and on the other side I hear that IR is gonna eventually hit the dumpster. If all these other specialties are creating their own fellowships for IR related procedures, why should there be an IR surgical subspecialty at all?
 
Judging by most of the neurologists I've met the thought of a neurologist doing neurointerventional procedures is very scary to me.
 
I too understand that majority of neurologists today are not trained in intervention and do not do it. It is a new fellowship which has started just recently , to address a neurologic disorder combining the entire clinical stuff with complete management. This is moving towards board certification. Situation after board certification will be different just like it is now in cardiology.
This is somewhat similar to those days when cardiologists had started intervention procedures. Remember that every cardiologist even today does not do intervention , it needs another fellowship of 1 yr after cardio fellowship.
Similarly every neuro rad doesn't do intervention , there is a 1 yr training in intervention after neurorad fellowship.
 
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