Interviews and Failing Grade

[Sugoi Travis]

So I found out that I failed my cell biology class with a D (not much of a surprise since I knew I was gonna get screwed over). One of the pharmacy schools I applied to will not be seeing this grade on the transcript I sent them since this particular pharmacy school's application deadline was on December 3rd and my fall quarter ended on December 10th.

The question I have is if I receive an interview invite, should I voluntarily tell the interviewers about my failing grade situation or not bring it up at all? I don't necessarily find the idea of hiding this fact from the interviewers to be appealing and I'm heavily leaning towards telling them just so there won't be any surprises if the acceptance letter comes around and I have to send in a second transcript. In a situation like this, would the truth hurt me more than keeping my mouth shut?

Just something to think about: aside from this class, I only have another C- in a calculus class. My calculus class grade will not be factored into my pre-req GPA as it is technically not a required class (apparently all the pharmacy schools I've applied to only require one semester of calculus). Basically, my cell bio grade is the only thing on my transcript that can be considered "failing." If the interview pops up and they give me a chance to talk about any discrepancies, I will tell them that I made a big mistake and did not study for the class enough to pass it; however, I will tell them that I am going to retake the class and pass it in order to show the school that I learned from this mistake and moved on.

TL;DR - Should I voluntarily bring up a failing grade issue in an interview even if the interviewers won't know about it, at that specific time?

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[luckyrx]

BIS104 is tough

 

[bahmed816]

I wouldnt tell them. If you get accepted, I dont think they'd rescind their offer after seeing it. Then again, im not an admission counselor but if you're not in a situation where you would have to tell them that I'd avoid it.

 

[Starshipp]

So I found out that I failed my cell biology class with a D (not much of a surprise since I knew I was gonna get screwed over). One of the pharmacy schools I applied to will not be seeing this grade on the transcript I sent them since this particular pharmacy school's application deadline was on December 3rd and my fall quarter ended on December 10th.

The question I have is if I receive an interview invite, should I voluntarily tell the interviewers about my failing grade situation or not bring it up at all? I don't necessarily find the idea of hiding this fact from the interviewers to be appealing and I'm heavily leaning towards telling them just so there won't be any surprises if the acceptance letter comes around and I have to send in a second transcript. In a situation like this, would the truth hurt me more than keeping my mouth shut?

Just something to think about: aside from this class, I only have another C- in a calculus class. My calculus class grade will not be factored into my pre-req GPA as it is technically not a required class (apparently all the pharmacy schools I've applied to only require one semester of calculus). Basically, my cell bio grade is the only thing on my transcript that can be considered "failing." If the interview pops up and they give me a chance to talk about any discrepancies, I will tell them that I made a big mistake and did not study for the class enough to pass it; however, I will tell them that I am going to retake the class and pass it in order to show the school that I learned from this mistake and moved on.

TL;DR - Should I voluntarily bring up a failing grade issue in an interview even if the interviewers won't know about it, at that specific time?

I wouldn't tell them. Once ur accepted and u send in a deposit then u r locked in. But be sure to retake it though. And how us calculate not a prerequisite? U should retake that one too.

 

[DrDrugs2012]

Saying you are getting screwed over in a class is a horrible admission to make. First, you try to deflect blame. Second, it disavows your responsibility for the grade. At the end of the day, unless the professor singled you our for persecution (racism, sexism, homophobia, etc), your grades are a product of your performance according to the professor's standards. Accept responsibility for it - that is the 'mature' thing to do. You intend to go into a profession where failing to accepting responsibility for your own mistakes is not tolerable because you will have patients' health in your hands.

Back to the original question - Do not be forthcoming with this information, however do not lie. If the interviewer asks how you performed this past semester, you cannot lie. If you lie saying it went well and later they find out otherwise when you send final transcripts, then they have the right to rescind their offer of admission (and likely will). Schools really frown on lying in applications/interviews.

Just remember, a closed mouth gathers no foot.

 

[smercer]

Most schools put a standards clause in the agreement for acceptance. Pretty much failing courses and what not can void the offer. If you get accepted I would be on the phone with them about the situation before sending the deposit. It would suck to have it voided, but suck worse to send in $250-$1000 for deposit and then it be voided.

 

[riggylou]

I wouldn't bring it up at the interview...the person you will likely be interviewing with is a faculty member, not really the person in charge of admissions records. If you get accepted, you should get in contact with the admissions counselor to see if you NEED to retake the course for spring. If it is a required prereq, then you likely will and I would register for it now to hold your spot just in case.

 

[Sugoi Travis]

Saying you are getting screwed over in a class is a horrible admission to make. First, you try to deflect blame. Second, it disavows your responsibility for the grade. At the end of the day, unless the professor singled you our for persecution (racism, sexism, homophobia, etc), your grades are a product of your performance according to the professor's standards. Accept responsibility for it - that is the 'mature' thing to do. You intend to go into a profession where failing to accepting responsibility for your own mistakes is not tolerable because you will have patients' health in your hands.

Back to the original question - Do not be forthcoming with this information, however do not lie. If the interviewer asks how you performed this past semester, you cannot lie. If you lie saying it went well and later they find out otherwise when you send final transcripts, then they have the right to rescind their offer of admission (and likely will). Schools really frown on lying in applications/interviews.

Just remember, a closed mouth gathers no foot.

I don't want to explode in rage over your first paragraph, but I think there was some mis-communication between us. I never intended to redirect blame onto something else or try and cover up my mistake. I screwed MYSELF over. It was my mistake to begin with; it was my fault that I did not study enough to pass the class on the first try and ended up putting myself into this situation. I accept FULL RESPONSIBILITY of my own actions. I am very frustrated at this apparent condescending tone of yours, which is probably my mistake because I did not fully clarify myself, but I'm not an idiot and I am fully aware of what I put myself into and will do whatever it takes for redemption.

I hope I made myself crystal clear now.

BIS104 is tough

Yeah my friends have told me it's utter hell. I am, however, puzzled at how you knew what class I was talking about lol. I'm assuming you go to UC Davis and took BIS 104 at one point?

I wouldn't tell them. Once ur accepted and u send in a deposit then u r locked in. But be sure to retake it though. And how us calculate not a prerequisite? U should retake that one too.

All schools that I have applied to require 3 semester units of calculus. I go to a university that goes by the quarter system. My calculus class progression goes by Math 16A, 16B and 16C. I received passing grades in 16A and 16B, but got a C- in 16C. All three classes accounted for 3 quarter units.

If we convert the 3 semester units of required calculus into quarter units, this means that I will have to have taken 4.5 quarter units of calculus in order to satisfy the requirement. I have taken 9 total quarter units, but am considered to have passed only 6 of them based on pharmacy school standards. With 6 quarter units of calculus passed, I feel that I don't have to retake my C- since I've already satisfied the calculus requirement.

 

[Twentytwelve2]

I went to UC Davis too. (Touro is full of UCD students btw)
Did you have Daniel Starr or the dreaded Etzler? I think mentioning quarter and end date and "Cell Biology" kind of gave everything away.

 

[kcha90]

When I saw BIS 104 I knew it was UCD too C- in 16C is kind of bad, but to be fair 16C was the hardest of the series (I took 16 series as well). Unfortunately the 16 series is easier than AP Calculus, so...

 

[Sugoi Travis]

I went to UC Davis too. (Touro is full of UCD students btw)
Did you have Daniel Starr or the dreaded Etzler? I think mentioning quarter and end date and "Cell Biology" kind of gave everything away.

I had Starr, which is a huge loss for me since he is supposedly the best BIS 104 professor on campus and I screwed my own chances at earning a decent grade with a great professor. I am not going anywhere near Etzler; my parents are paying their hard-earned money for me to learn, not be belittled by some apparently egotistical professor.

When I saw BIS 104 I knew it was UCD too C- in 16C is kind of bad, but to be fair 16C was the hardest of the series (I took 16 series as well). Unfortunately the 16 series is easier than AP Calculus, so...

I never was great at calculus. Once pre-calculus came around, my math grades just tanked. I took 16C way way back during my first year when my study habits sucked (not trying to shove the blame off of myself), but I don't know if it's worth retaking a class that isn't part of the prerequisite.


But anyways, I already made plans to retake cell biology during spring quarter. I'm not letting a single grade define who I am as a student. However, I would still appreciate input on my moral/educational dilemma. It is surprising for me to hear so many people saying that I should not bring it up; are we basing the assumption that the interviewers do not ask about my fall quarter?

 

[kcha90]

But anyways, I already made plans to retake cell biology during spring quarter. I'm not letting a single grade define who I am as a student. However, I would still appreciate input on my moral/educational dilemma. It is surprising for me to hear so many people saying that I should not bring it up; are we basing the assumption that the interviewers do not ask about my fall quarter?

If I were in your shoes, I probably wouldn't bring it up out of context, but I would certainly be prepared to explain the situation. Unfortunately, you probably won't get much sympathy, and since the best way to reduce the impact of the D is to get a good grade when you retake BIS 104, you may be at a bit of a disadvantage (since you're taking it in the spring). Anyway, it could be bad enough to earn you a rejection, or it could be ignored by the adcoms. Just try not to think about the bad grades and prepare for interviews as you normally would, and hope for the best.

 

[Twentytwelve2]

I had Starr, which is a huge loss for me since he is supposedly the best BIS 104 professor on campus and I screwed my own chances at earning a decent grade with a great professor. I am not going anywhere near Etzler; my parents are paying their hard-earned money for me to learn, not be belittled by some apparently egotistical professor.



I never was great at calculus. Once pre-calculus came around, my math grades just tanked. I took 16C way way back during my first year when my study habits sucked (not trying to shove the blame off of myself), but I don't know if it's worth retaking a class that isn't part of the prerequisite.


But anyways, I already made plans to retake cell biology during spring quarter. I'm not letting a single grade define who I am as a student. However, I would still appreciate input on my moral/educational dilemma. It is surprising for me to hear so many people saying that I should not bring it up; are we basing the assumption that the interviewers do not ask about my fall quarter?

I had Dr. Starr too! I agree, he is THE best science professor I had at UCD. Most prof. would use powerpoints but he uses the chalkboard the majority of the time which makes a huge difference. It is funny that you described Etzler like how everyone has told me about her. I heard she made a girl cry during office hours!

I would like to let you know that the interviewers will know about your fall grades when you update your grades in PharmCAS sometime in February (or something, I cant remember) during the "academic update window." The interviewer are limited in the number of questions they can ask u so there is a chance they may not bring it up. However, just to bring it out there. During my CNCP interview, I used an upper-div course as an example to leadership in class and I was asked what grade I got as a follow-up question. For Touro, I doubt they will bring up ur grade inconsistencies... its a group interview and I believe the faculty does not want to humiliate you and disclose your private information to everyone else. So dont worry!

Oh and to answer your question... No! Do not bring anything negative up unless asked by the interviewer! If the interviewer ask u about a challenge u faced and how u overcome it, u may use that as an example and how u overcome it by changing ur study behaviors and the results being a positive grade change. The interviewer may show some sympathy for u as long as u show them that u became a stronger academic student.

 

[DrDrugs2012]

I don't want to explode in rage over your first paragraph, but I think there was some mis-communication between us. I never intended to redirect blame onto something else or try and cover up my mistake. I screwed MYSELF over. It was my mistake to begin with; it was my fault that I did not study enough to pass the class on the first try and ended up putting myself into this situation. I accept FULL RESPONSIBILITY of my own actions. I am very frustrated at this apparent condescending tone of yours, which is probably my mistake because I did not fully clarify myself, but I'm not an idiot and I am fully aware of what I put myself into and will do whatever it takes for redemption.

I hope I made myself crystal clear now.

There was nothing condescending about it. Your statement was originally posted as "I knew I was going to get screwed over"... in most any reading, that would imply that it was not self-inflicted. It is a common sentiment among students that something was done unfairly or that they believed they were undeserving of such a poor grade. You and I both know you have heard such words uttered by students - and not on rare occasions. Its simply not an acceptable nor mature statement to be made. But that highlights the importance of communicating with definitive statements which are not subject to any interpretation other than the one which you intend. Moving on....

Forgetting the fact that grades, with the exception of those undue aforementioned forces, are the sole responsibility and product of a student's effort, I ask students or job applicants during interviews about a scenario in which their academic performance was poor... and then try to ascertain what the students have done to improve themselves... nearly invariably the only coherent answer I receive is "take the class over and get a better grade".

That is not "improvement". If you have multiple free throws, your odds of making a single basket always improve. You are expected to perform significantly better on your second attempt. People perform poorly for all manner of reasons, and the whole point was to illustrate the concept that self reflection is the better part of a champion. No professional or admissions committee member would hold it against you for performing poorly... but they may hold it against you for not growing from the experience. Your application will be remarkably improved if you can turn the negative experience of performing poorly into a positive one by addressing the problem as an opportunity for personal and professional growth rather than ignoring the issue in the hopes that an admissions committee overlooks (intentionally or otherwise) the poor performance in a class.

 

[kcha90]

Unfortunately, the best students (and applicants) never have to retake a class and get straight A's whether the teacher is bad or not. They never have to make excuses, and that's the best situation possible.

 

[DrDrugs2012]

Unfortunately, the best students (and applicants) never have to retake a class and get straight A's whether the teacher is bad or not. They never have to make excuses, and that's the best situation possible.

I disagree. One can rarely measure success if one does not know or comprehend failure.
I would accept a student or a job applicant who has failed to measure up to their own personal goals and then rectified the situation through genuine growth than accept a characterless 4.0/99th% applicant. And believe me - I have. I have routinely known high scoring applicants to be rejected from universities and graduate schools. In one year alone, Harvard rejected 90% of the valedictorians who applied to their undergraduate school.

The best students are the ones who have a genuine desire to do well for a purpose other than doing well. They may never have the recall memory or the application or problem solving skills as the academic decathlete... but they will never fail their patients on the basis of overconfidence in their abilities. When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. I remember a lesson I once learned while seeing patients in clinic with a senior physician. Before entering the examination room, she asked me what my initial impression was and what we should go in thinking? Having viewed the patient chart and past medical history of cardiac problems, I surmised that the weight gain, increasing lethargy, difficulty performing basic activities of daily living due to shortness of breath and fatigue, that this may be a case of worsening heart failure. Her response? Its depression. Overconfidence is a disease which plagues many students - which is fine when you don't have a life in your hands. That's not the case with a pharmacist though... and I promise you one thing... the students who have failed and grown from it - they are rarely overconfident. They know exactly where they stand, what they know and don't know, and they have learned to ask the right questions and most importantly, are able to say "I don't know the answer to this, but I know someone/something that probably does."

Its like when you first get your drivers license... you never really "slow down" until you have a couple of kids in the backseat.

 

[474671]

So say you're disputing a grade for a class, like Cell Bio (like have legitimate documented reasons that can erase the D and place it as a Withdrawal and it would be my first and only W grade) but sent your transcript to PharmCAS for academic update since by the time your school opens back up the office for the dispute it'd be too late to get the transcript in for AU? Would you that up if it's an open file interview?

 

[kcha90]

Doing well in your classes does not mean you never encounter failure, nor does it mean you are overconfident. And it certainly doesn't mean that you're doing things just for the grade. In fact, many of us who do well in school do so because we love to learn, and because we're conscientious, thoughtful, careful, resourceful, resilient, circumspect, and most of all seasoned by failures and limitations. There seems to be a misconception that 99th percentile means you're some robot who only cares about grades and has no real-world smarts. Being a good student is not always accompanied by some hubristic arrogance or overconfidence.

 

[DrDrugs2012]

I suppose that would depend entirely on your reasons for the W.

See, what many students don't understand is that bad grades influenced significantly by life events - personal health problems, family emergency, trauma, etc - still don't really count as an excusable reason for performing poorly. Before you think me callous, hear me out.

A responsible and mature decisionmaker would recognize in that in the face of a monumental challenge, one cannot be expected (and never would be expected) to simultaneously meet the requirements of the challenge and academics - one of the two typically must defer and take a back seat to the other. No sane individual questions someone for withdrawing from a semester of school for due cause - but they may question one's decisionmaking abilities when one fails to withdraw, performs poorly, and then blames that performance on the tragedy. The tragedy did not cause poor performance - the poor decision to continue with school when the student was in no mental state to be matriculated in school was the poor cause of poor performance. Even when you are in no mental state to keep up with academic requirements, that doesn't give tacit permission to abdicate your responsibilities to yourself. Just because you're angry about something doesn't mean you can go out and punch someone at a bar or take a baseball bat to a cabbie's windshield. You are still expected to make sound decisions regardless of what you are faced with overcoming - something very important in healthcare because the chances of you seeing something that breaks you down emotionally is actually quite high.

 

[DrDrugs2012]

Doing well in your classes does not mean you never encounter failure, nor does it mean you are overconfident. And it certainly doesn't mean that you're doing things just for the grade. In fact, many of us who do well in school do so because we love to learn, and because we're conscientious, thoughtful, careful, resourceful, resilient, circumspect, and most of all seasoned by failures and limitations. There seems to be a misconception that 99th percentile means you're some robot who only cares about grades and has no real-world smarts. Being a good student is not always accompanied by some hubristic arrogance or overconfidence.

Hence why I said characterless 4.0/99th.

I qualified the statement.

 

[kcha90]

Hence why I said characterless 4.0/99th.

I qualified the statement.

Ah I guess I am guilty of some overconfidence lazy skim-reading. But also I wanted to say that I do agree with what you were saying.

 

[474671]

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[DrDrugs2012]

Please don't take this as an attack on you. If I were an interviewer and you just offered that statement in response to my question about your grades, my first response thought would be questioning why you would continue to take an exam knowing you are incapable of taking it.

In the world of academics, you bolster your case by not completing an exam than completing it. By informing the TAs/proctors of what is happening and then walking out of the exam unfit to perform and going straight to student health, you would have established your case with your professor and the department chair who would more likely choose to give you a make-up exam than to fail you for not completing the exam. I don't think there are many professors out there who are willing to take the heat on forbidding an ill student from retaking an exam. Most professors, regardless of how difficult their classes may be, are people of the real world. If you approach them professionally, they will respond collegially. They of course would not be obligated to give you the same exact exam, but that wouldn't matter if you were prepared, would it? Now I am not saying you are doing this, but you have to think from the perspective of the teacher - students try and come up with all kinds of ways to stay one step ahead of everyone else... often, unethically... and you are smart so you see where I am going with this. By completing the exam the professor can claim that you were clearly not in dire need of being excused since you sat there the entire time without alerting the TA/proctors about your state of health. By thinking from the perspective of the other side, you will quickly see that a better decision would have been to a) alert the TA's/proctors what was happening b) if they won't observe you getting your inhaler and not flipping through index cards so you can stop wheezing and resume taking your exam and then c) walking out and going to student health to get the proverbial 'note'. Then you could have taken the exam at a later time, without penalty, and since you say you were prepared, probably would have done just fine and not put yourself in the predicament of having to explain your poor grade to an interviewer.

When faced with an interview question about the grade - THAT is the lesson you want to take away from this. Don't try and explain it away on the basis of health, because as you see from the perspective of the faculty, your explanation is just BS in their eyes and will be more of the same from the perspective of the interviewer. Unfortunately, in the proverbial real world, no one cares about reasons why something happened. Giving reasons is just an excuse. What they are really asking is "assure me this will never happen again."

 

[kcha90]

Unfortunately, in the proverbial real world, no one cares about reasons why something happened. Giving reasons is just an excuse. What they are really asking is "assure me this will never happen again."

Pretty much the bottom line.

 

[DrDrugs2012]

Rxelle -
Deleting your post doesn't change anything. Once you posted, its out there. Might as well put it back so others reading the thread can see what my response was directed at.