Intimidating Attending

[imtheman25]

So I ran into an attending (who never seems to smile) at my research lab and after some internet stalking I found out that she did her residency where I dream of going to (UPENN). I want to ask her for mentorship advice and advice about getting into UPENN for residency but I am afraid she might think 1) I am a gunner 2) I am a pathetic second year 3) I'm wasting her time. I do not know how to approach her. Any advice on what I should say to her?

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[Dandine]

So this is my $0.02 so take and leave what you will.

1.) Does this attending seem like someone who is interested in mentoring students? In other words, does she have students that she is currently helping or her job involves training students in whatever field she is in? If so, then asking her to mentor you is part of her job and you wouldn't be a gunner simply to ask her for advice about how to manage your career future. If she doesn't want to mentor you, it would likely be because she's not interested or she doesn't think she is qualified for the kind of mentorship you seek--and you probably wouldn't want her for a mentor if those are the reasons. But 99% of the time if you want someone to help you with your career they will do so.

2.) Are you a second-year medical student or pre-med (assuming med student given this is the forum)? Either way, #1 above still applies.

3.) See #1.

Also, are you interested in any particular specialty at the moment?

 

[imtheman25]

I will gladly accept your 2 cents. She's doesn't work in my lab, but in the lab next door so that is why I am weary because it is not part of her job. I am also a second year interested in surgery esp neuro surg.

So this is my $0.02 so take and leave what you will.

1.) Does this attending seem like someone who is interested in mentoring students? In other words, does she have students that she is currently helping or her job involves training students in whatever field she is in? If so, then asking her to mentor you is part of her job and you wouldn't be a gunner simply to ask her for advice about how to manage your career future. If she doesn't want to mentor you, it would likely be because she's not interested or she doesn't think she is qualified for the kind of mentorship you seek--and you probably wouldn't want her for a mentor if those are the reasons. But 99% of the time if you want someone to help you with your career they will do so.

2.) Are you a second-year medical student or pre-med (assuming med student given this is the forum)? Either way, #1 above still applies.

3.) See #1.

Also, are you interested in any particular specialty at the moment?

 

[PrettyLadyDoc24]

So I ran into an attending (who never seems to smile) at my research lab and after some internet stalking I found out that she did her residency where I dream of going to (UPENN). I want to ask her for mentorship advice and advice about getting into UPENN for residency but I am afraid she might think 1) I am a gunner 2) I am a pathetic second year 3) I'm wasting her time. I do not know how to approach her. Any advice on what I should say to her?

Most attendings if they employed at learning institutions want to help the next generation of physicians in their field. I think you should ask her, but be prepared for her to say no, which might happen if she thinks herself to be too busy to be of any real help to you. She might be a good resource if you're interested in doing an elective at her place of residency.

 

[PrettyLadyDoc24]

How can you have a "dream" residency when you don't even know what field you're going into?

I got the impression that the institution was the dream, not the field.

 

[imtheman25]

How can you have a "dream" residency when you don't even know what field you're going into?

Then it's an immature dream

Long story short...I had received tx at UPenn and since then its been my dream to go there. Let me live a little

 

[imtheman25]

Like I said, that's a really immature reason to plan your future.

Given its a top research program with cutting edge technology and a high patient volume with varying and complex pathology, I genuinely do not understand why it is an immature reason that I want to go there, given all I stated PLUS the fact that I have a personal connection to the institute. Please tell me, in all honesty........

 

[WheezyBaby]

How can you have a "dream" residency when you don't even know what field you're going into?

Then it's an immature dream

I think this is the way it will come off as well. Do you really know that penn has a high patient volume as compared to other GS and NUS residencies? Is that just patient contact or scrubbed cases? What technologies specifically are available at Penn that you hope will forward your career in GS / NUS? What faculty at Penn do you hope to work with that align with your research interests in GS / NUS?

 

[Dandine]

@imtheman25 If you're in a lab next door I'm assuming her lab and your PI's lab do similar research, so it wouldn't be out of the ordinary to ask her questions if you had them. Part of med school is getting in touch with people who are doing things you're interested in doing one day.

@WheezyBaby makes some points that are valid towards residency regardless of specialty. It really depends on what you want out of a training program, and that takes looking into individual programs to see what they have to offer and whether one is a good fit for you based on your training needs. So if you want to talk to the attending about Penn residency, then do that to get an idea of what the program has to offer, but realize that you will have to eventually look into other residency programs to see whether those are better or worse for getting you to develop into the kind of physician you want to become.

It's a still a long way and I'm not an expert at the process, but part of the Match involves ranking residency programs and you have to seriously consider the programs out there as potential options, even if you have a first choice program in mind. That way, if you land up at a program that isn't your first choice but is still decent, it is better than second-ranking a program that turns out to be terrible for your needs but you weren't aware of any red flags it had.

More about the Match: How does the matching algorithm work? - The Match, National Resident Matching Program
Guide on searching for residency programs that fit: https://www.facs.org/~/media/files/education/medicalstudents/gadacz.ashx

Hope that helps somewhat; nothing wrong with liking a school but finding a good residency is as much about figuring out what you want from training and making sure whatever program you apply to has what you need.

 

[username456789]

seems like its a competitive field, so i think you should probably wait until after you take step 1, and then talk. many people in my school were presidents of the ortho/optho/whatever interest group, then had to decide on some other field because they didn't score high enough. pretty embarrassing, but step 1 is a humbling exam.

Do you go to school with @failedatlife ?

 

[AcademicNeurosurgery]

I feel like there is an assumption being made here that your dream to attend UPenn will translate into you walking up to this person and saying "Hi, I'm an MS2 and want to do neurosurgery at UPenn. Help me." Obviously don't do that for a host of reasons - you may not even know if nsg is for you, you may know nothing about the program and whether you are a good fit, the fact that you were a patient once is insignificant with regards to matching, etc.

With regards to being intimidated, you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. Never back down from an opportunity to network and seek advice. When you do approach her, just be candid and say you are a second year thinking about neurosurgery and want to know if she has any advice for you or can help you find ways to learn more about the field. If you are given any opportunities, show up prepared. If she lets you shadow, watch videos on how to scrub in, block out an entire day to shadow, and arrive early. If she invites you into her office for a meeting, be prepared with questions.

I first shadowed a neurosurgeon as an MS1. Showed up the first day and got yelled at before I could even put my hand out for a handshake and say my name. Life goes on.

 

[Gurby]

I first shadowed a neurosurgeon as an MS1. Showed up the first day and got yelled at before I could even put my hand out for a handshake and say my name. Life goes on.

What did you do?

 

[imtheman25]

I feel like there is an assumption being made here that your dream to attend UPenn will translate into you walking up to this person and saying "Hi, I'm an MS2 and want to do neurosurgery at UPenn. Help me." Obviously don't do that for a host of reasons - you may not even know if nsg is for you, you may know nothing about the program and whether you are a good fit, the fact that you were a patient once is insignificant with regards to matching, etc.

With regards to being intimidated, you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. Never back down from an opportunity to network and seek advice. When you do approach her, just be candid and say you are a second year thinking about neurosurgery and want to know if she has any advice for you or can help you find ways to learn more about the field. If you are given any opportunities, show up prepared. If she lets you shadow, watch videos on how to scrub in, block out an entire day to shadow, and arrive early. If she invites you into her office for a meeting, be prepared with questions.

I first shadowed a neurosurgeon as an MS1. Showed up the first day and got yelled at before I could even put my hand out for a handshake and say my name. Life goes on.

Thank you!!

 

[IslandStyle808]

What did you do?

I'm going to take a stab and say the neurosurgeon already washed his hands for surgery and Academic tried to shake that hand with his unwashed hand.

 

[LyMed]

Why did you want to talk to her? To see what her experience is with UPenn? To do research with her if she's doing neurosurg? To pick her brain? I think all of these are reasonable things, and the only thing you need to do is just introduce yourself in a friendly manner and have a nice casual convo.

Don't assume a doctor is intimidating just because they don't smile!

 

[backside_attack]

Please tell me, in all honesty........

I think @SouthernSurgeon already did.

 

[WingedOx]

Best way to get in good with a UPenn grad is to congratulate them on winning the Big Ten last season.

 

[TSteezy]

Best way to get in good with a UPenn grad is to congratulate them on winning the Big Ten last season.

pls tell me this is a joke. UPenn ≠ Penn State

 

[WingedOx]

pls tell me this is a joke. UPenn ≠ Penn State

Exactly what someone trying to pretend the Paterno scandal didn't happen would say...

 

[imtheman25]

Why did you want to talk to her? To see what her experience is with UPenn? To do research with her if she's doing neurosurg? To pick her brain? I think all of these are reasonable things, and the only thing you need to do is just introduce yourself in a friendly manner and have a nice casual convo.

Don't assume a doctor is intimidating just because they don't smile!

Update:
I had her post-docc introduce me and she agreed to grab lunch and talk (she wasn't really paying any attention when talking to me and was more focused on her computer). But that's fine because medical students aren't worth the full attention of an attending. And yes LyMed, I want to know about her experience, exposure to research, and any advice she has offer about medical school etc.

 

[imtheman25]

Thanks to everyone who commented. Attendings just intimidate the hell out of me, and I needed the courage to approach them. Do you think most attendings are willing to talk to medical students, share their experience and provide PEARLS about our careers..i.e be our mentors?

 

[AcademicNeurosurgery]

What did you do?

I'm going to take a stab and say the neurosurgeon already washed his hands for surgery and Academic tried to shake that hand with his unwashed hand.

Good guess but no. Long story short, we talked on the phone and he's super chill - says to just text him the day before I want to come in to make sure he isn't off and he'll respond within 15-30 minutes. So, I text him ~24 hours in advance to ask if I can shadow him the following day -> he doesn't respond so I schedule an early morning meeting -> he texts me the next morning and says to be at the OR in 15 -> I apologize, tell him I have a meeting, and ask if it's cool if I come after -> he says that's cool -> I haul tail and make it to the OR suite at 8:30 -> he walks up to me and says "Don't you EVER show up this late again. I start at 6 and you better be here". Cool.

He starts the surgery and I have no idea what is going on, it was the first time I had ever stepped foot into an OR. He is shooting the freeze with the nurses as he tinkers with this lady's elbow. In an attempt to reset our first interaction, I casually (i.e. very, very stupidly) ask something to the effect of "so, what're you doing there big guy?". His response: "Exactly what it looks like I am doing."

And just like that, every SDN post about the surgeon "God complex" came to life.

Update:
I had her post-docc introduce me and she agreed to grab lunch and talk (she wasn't really paying any attention when talking to me and was more focused on her computer). But that's fine because medical students aren't worth the full attention of an attending. And yes LyMed, I want to know about her experience, exposure to research, and any advice she has offer about medical school etc.

Congrats! Make sure you are prepared. And get it out of your head that "medical students aren't worth the full attention of an attending". Yes, attendings are busy and medical students often get in the way. That doesn't change the fact that you are both humans and deserve respect.

Thanks to everyone who commented. Attendings just intimidate the hell out of me, and I needed the courage to approach them. Do you think most attendings are willing to talk to medical students, share their experience and provide PEARLS about our careers..i.e be our mentors?

I have found most are very willing to mentor medical students who are eager to learn. Even the guy I mentioned above became a mentor of mine, we talk 3-5 times/month. Medicine has an apprenticeship model so we all have a duty to give back as attendings, just don't forget what it was like to be a nervous medical student/resident.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Good guess but no. Long story short, we talked on the phone and he's super chill - says to just text him the day before I want to come in to make sure he isn't off and he'll respond within 15-30 minutes. So, I text him ~24 hours in advance to ask if I can shadow him the following day -> he doesn't respond so I schedule an early morning meeting -> he texts me the next morning and says to be at the OR in 15 -> I apologize, tell him I have a meeting, and ask if it's cool if I come after -> he says that's cool -> I haul tail and make it to the OR suite at 8:30 -> he walks up to me and says "Don't you EVER show up this late again. I start at 6 and you better be here". Cool.

Yeah for a second there it reminded me of a story by an Anesthesia doc I shadowed. During his 3rd year rotation, he meet with his surgery preceptor. The preceptor tried to shake his. Just when the doc I shadowed tried to shake his hand, he got chewed out for not washing his hands. Just was curious if it was a similar story. Guess not.

 

[Logic Inc]

Bro my .69c take it or leave it, you have nothing to lose in asking her. Also, if you wanna pursue neurosurgery, man up and get it done. If you don't have the confidence to do something simple as this, how are you going to operate on brainsssssssss???

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

Exactly what someone trying to pretend the Paterno scandal didn't happen would say...

You're a big fan of the bait and switch. I see what you did there, and I kinda like it.

 

[AcademicNeurosurgery]

Yeah for a second there it reminded me of a story by an Anesthesia doc I shadowed. During his 3rd year rotation, he meet with his surgery preceptor. The preceptor tried to shake his. Just when the doc I shadowed tried to shake his hand, he got chewed out for not washing his hands. Just was curious if it was a similar story. Guess not.

Yeah I've heard of this being done as a joke/welcome to the OR/teaching moment for new M3s.

 

[Doctor-S]

Do you think most attendings are willing to talk to medical students, share their experience and provide PEARLS about our careers..i.e be our mentors?

Yes.

I have met with many medical students at the AMC, or at the medical school, or in my office, or on my free days when I'm not working. I have also met with many pre-med/pre-vet med students. So have many of my other colleagues (e.g., MD, PhD, DVMs). Over the years, we have never forgotten what it feels like to be a "student."

TLDR: We all had to start from somewhere ... no worries.