Intro from an aspiring career changer

[gupright1]

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I just wanted to introduce myself to the forum and say hello to my fellow career changers. I also wanted to gather everyone’s thought’s on my current situation and hopefully gain some advice on my postbaq situation.

I graduated with a major in business back in May of 2011 from Franklin and Marshall College in Lancaster, Pa. I have an overall GPA of 3.19 (had a little too much fun during my freshman year) and I have not taken any of my prereqs except for Calc where I received a B. My cohort was the class of 2010; however, at the time I did not have enough credits to graduate and thus that is why I graduated in May. I originally went to Franklin and Marshall for the premed program but I decided that having a foundation in business would benefit me when I decided it was right to attempt the jump into the healthcare field. I have always had a passion for medicine receiving my Wilderness First Responder back in 2007 and also shadowing a local physician during the past three summers when I was off from school.

I am determined that now is the right time to start my dream and jump into the healthcare field.

For the past year and a half I have been working as a Recruitment consultant paying off my student loans and other expenses. During this time, I have also started a NFP dedicated to building “green” schools in India. I currently have three schools being built as we speak. Furthermore, I am currently enrolled in an EMT course and I will be volunteering in New Canaan, CT. Contingent upon my graduation from the EMT course I will be traveling to India with a local MD to attempt to start sustainable clinics at each of the schools.

After hearing my story is anyone able to give me feedback on my chances of entering into a career changer post bac program? If I have strong chances of getting in can anyone make recommendations on what programs I should be looking at and what next steps I should be taking?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[DrMidlife]

Your background will be of tremendous interest, but you bear the burden of proof of academic prowess. You need a program that's both a "career changer" and an "academic enhancer". You might be able to get both in one program.

Go ahead and work up an application to competitive structured postbacs and see what happens. Have a plan B that puts you at a Harvard Extension or similar.

You may find that you need to do an SMP as well as more undergrad, depending on what happens in your postbac and on your MCAT.

Best of luck to you.

 

[gupright1]

Your background will be of tremendous interest, but you bear the burden of proof of academic prowess. You need a program that's both a "career changer" and an "academic enhancer". You might be able to get both in one program.

Go ahead and work up an application to competitive structured postbacs and see what happens. Have a plan B that puts you at a Harvard Extension or similar.

You may find that you need to do an SMP as well as more undergrad, depending on what happens in your postbac and on your MCAT.

Best of luck to you.

DrMidlife,

I really appreciate the quick response!

1.) When you say "competitive structured postbacs" which ones are you referring to?

2.) What would my plan B have to be to get me into HES?

3.)What you consider on par with HES?

 

[DrMidlife]

1.) When you say "competitive structured postbacs" which ones are you referring to?

Bryn Mawr/Goucher/Mills/Scripps/Penn/Temple/Bennington/etc. Competitive to get in, structured curriculum, boxed product.

2.) What would my plan B have to be to get me into HES?

Apply to HES and other less formal, less structured, less competitive programs, as well as applying to competitive structured formal programs.

3.)What you consider on par with HES?

Berkeley Extension, UT Dallas, and anybody else that makes it straightforward to pay for and register for the prereqs and a lot of upper div science.

Best of luck to you.

 

[gupright1]

Bryn Mawr/Goucher/Mills/Scripps/Penn/Temple/Bennington/etc. Competitive to get in, structured curriculum, boxed product.

Apply to HES and other less formal, less structured, less competitive programs, as well as applying to competitive structured formal programs.

Berkeley Extension, UT Dallas, and anybody else that makes it straightforward to pay for and register for the prereqs and a lot of upper div science.

Best of luck to you.

DrMidlife, best of luck to you as well and thank you for your help!

 

[thlaxer]

The chances of you being admitted to a career changer program are pretty good, as the admissions requirements are fairly low, especially at programs like HES (their philosophy is to pretty much accept everyone and let them prove themselves in the program). I don't want to be a downer, but your grades are probably not competitive for the Goucher, Bryn Mawr and Scripps programs.. though it never hurts to try as your ECs are interesting 🙂.

Also, one thing I learned from applying is just how important your cGPA and sGPA (along with MCAT and LORs) are in the med school admissions process. Coming in with a 3.19, you absolutely need to ace all of your prereqs (and then maybe some more upper division classes) in order to be competitive. So make sure you go somewhere where you can succeed academically (i.e. A's). Programs such as HES, Columbia and Penn (the ones that I or my friends have experience with) provide an excellent education. And if you do well in these programs, many doors will open for you. However, their classes are curved to a low B (2.7), so many dreams are unfortunately crushed in this process.. These post-bac programs have high attrition rates, something you should be aware of before committing to a particular school. I have no personal experience with the Temple program, but I have heard good things about them (not sure of their grading policies, attrition rates, etc. though). Definitely something to look up on.

Good luck with your applications and also your future school work OP. 🙂

 

[deleted248403]

. Programs such as HES, Columbia and Penn (the ones that I or my friends have experience with) provide an excellent education. And if you do well in these programs, many doors will open for you. However, their classes are curved to a low B (2.7), so many dreams are unfortunately crushed in this process.. These post-bac programs have high attrition rates, something you should be aware of before committing to a particular school

Bold parts not true for Penn; can't speak to the others but i've not heard this about HES either.

 

[gupright1]

The chances of you being admitted to a career changer program are pretty good, as the admissions requirements are fairly low, especially at programs like HES (their philosophy is to pretty much accept everyone and let them prove themselves in the program). I don't want to be a downer, but your grades are probably not competitive for the Goucher, Bryn Mawr and Scripps programs.. though it never hurts to try as your ECs are interesting 🙂.

Also, one thing I learned from applying is just how important your cGPA and sGPA (along with MCAT and LORs) are in the med school admissions process. Coming in with a 3.19, you absolutely need to ace all of your prereqs (and then maybe some more upper division classes) in order to be competitive. So make sure you go somewhere where you can succeed academically (i.e. A's). Programs such as HES, Columbia and Penn (the ones that I or my friends have experience with) provide an excellent education. And if you do well in these programs, many doors will open for you. However, their classes are curved to a low B (2.7), so many dreams are unfortunately crushed in this process.. These post-bac programs have high attrition rates, something you should be aware of before committing to a particular school. I have no personal experience with the Temple program, but I have heard good things about them (not sure of their grading policies, attrition rates, etc. though). Definitely something to look up on.

Good luck with your applications and also your future school work OP. 🙂

Napaholic,

Thanks for your reply as well. May I ask what school you went to? I live in Bedford, ny and therefore I would lean towards Colombia. My girlfriend is currently study occupational therapy there too. I am interested in the three that you mentioned.

If I need to achieve nothing less than As why would I not go to an easier school though?

 

[thlaxer]

Bold parts not true for Penn; can't speak to the others but i've not heard this about HES either.

I could be wrong, but that's what was said about their introductory-level classes at least. I don't know about the grading for their upper division courses though (which the OP won't take for at least another year or two). My apologies if I've been spreading misinformation 🙂.

Many programs will advertise their ~90% matriculation rate, which sounds great. But this number is for people who get the committee letter. I know of several people who started at these post-bac programs who have since quit to finish up their prereqs at another institution (for financial or grading reasons, mostly due to the latter). I don't know the exact attrition rates, but I won't be surprised at all if it's somewhere around 40%. Imo that's too high.

 

[thlaxer]

If I need to achieve nothing less than As why would I not go to an easier school though?

I went to one of the three 🙂. If you are positive you can get A's in these programs (and can afford the tuition), I think you should come as there definitely are advantages. I (fortunately) came out with a good GPA from my post-bac program and my interviewers were very impressed by it because these programs are perceived to be more rigorous (it's an Ivy after all!). The teaching I received at the school prepared me very well for the MCAT and I got great LoRs (and ultimately a very supportive and thorough committee letter) from my professors here. Apart from this, research and volunteering opportunities are also more plentiful in places like Boston, NYC and Philadelphia. So if you are sure you can get the grades, having the school name (and the experiences that come with it) to your application is a benefit.

I know my previous posts may sound critical of the Ivy post-bacs and hopefully it isn't scaring you or someone else off. These programs are amazing and they can help get you to where you need to go. Just make sure that you can do well academically before jumping in as not everyone who goes in comes out with a successful ending. Your GPA (not the prestige of your institution) is what's going to be looked at more heavily when you apply to med school.If you are not completely confident about acing the classes at Columbia and think that you can get a significantly higher GPA (e.g. 3.9 vs. 3.3) at an "easier school," I think that you should go that route.. Several of my close friends who started with me ended up dropping out because of poor grades (they went to another school and did well there), if they could do this process again they would've picked a different school. These are just my experiences though.

Try looking up student experiences at the school threads here. There's a lot of good info.

 

[deleted248403]

I could be wrong, but that's what was said about their introductory-level classes at least. I don't know about the grading for their upper division courses though (which the OP won't take for at least another year or two). My apologies if I've been spreading misinformation 🙂.

Its not true for introductory-classes either. Penn Undergrad may curve to a 2.7, but the post-bac program does not.

Many programs will advertise their ~90% matriculation rate, which sounds great. But this number is for people who get the committee letter. I know of several people who started at these post-bac programs who have since quit to finish up their prereqs at another institution (for financial or grading reasons, mostly due to the latter). I don't know the exact attrition rates, but I won't be surprised at all if it's somewhere around 40%. Imo that's too high.

The attrition rate is not 40%. At Penn, my guess is 20-30% for the SSP program at most, with some of those leaving because they got into a Carib med school or got a full-time job in the area (which is a very diff reason than leaving cos of the program itself).
For pre-health program, I am pretty confident the number is lower, prob more like 10-15%.

I would advise you to do some more research and reading on the programs before you make some of the comments on them. I can't speak for HES/Columbia but so far all of your Penn comments have been wrong. Not trying to attack you at all, just preventing the spread of inaccurate information

 

[thlaxer]

Its not true for introductory-classes either. Penn Undergrad may curve to a 2.7, but the post-bac program does not.

The attrition rate is not 40%. At Penn, my guess is 20-30% for the SSP program at most, with some of those leaving because they got into a Carib med school or got a full-time job in the area (which is a very diff reason than leaving cos of the program itself).
For pre-health program, I am pretty confident the number is lower, prob more like 10-15%.

I would advise you to do some more research and reading on the programs before you make some of the comments on them. I can't speak for HES/Columbia but so far all of your Penn comments have been wrong. Not trying to attack you at all, just preventing the spread of inaccurate information

Fair enough, thanks for the corrections. There's no offense taken on my part 😀. I'm repeating some information I got from some friends there, but then again you know what they say about rumors .

A 10-15% attrition rate does sound way too low though, especially given the weedout nature of the introductory courses.

 

[deleted248403]

A 10-15% attrition rate does sound way too low though, especially given the weedout nature of the introductory courses.

There is a big diff between attrition and those that go on to go to medical school. But I think those are two unrelated things.
(i.e. if you can't get thru an interview/get an acceptable MCAT score, it doesn't really what your GPA was)

 

[thlaxer]

There is a big diff between attrition and those that go on to go to medical school. But I think those are two unrelated things.
(i.e. if you can't get thru an interview/get an acceptable MCAT score, it doesn't really what your GPA was)

That's where my confusion came from I think. I was thinking more of how many students ended up not getting into a med school after finishing the prereqs (MCAT and interviews are major factors to consider).

Also, I agree that some people definitely do leave because of non-academic reasons (got good grades but just decided medicine wasn't for them, personal issues, etc.), but I can also think of several people (which is a high number imo since I don't know that many Penn students) off the top of my head who decided to leave Penn to retake their prereqs at another school or are no longer considering applying to med school due to poor grades. Obviously this is anecdotal evidence with a small sample size. So I'm actually very surprised to hear that the actual attrition rate is < 15%.

 

[johnnyscans]

OP,

You've got some really nice extra-curriculars. If you can get yourself past the screening process and into the interview, you'll probably be golden. The key to that is the GPA/MCAT sliding scale - you need to do well enough in both so that any poor past academic performance is easily forgotten when compared to your more recent triumphs.

That said, your GPA needs some work. The good part - since you've taken so few science classes you rather easily and rapidly boost it to the stars. The key is getting all As (> 3.7 GPA) from this point forward. Dr. Midlife is right in that you'll want both a career changer and an academic enhancer program. My recommendation would be to look for a program in/near a major city that will allow you to continue to expand upon your EC activities. When you take your classes make sure that you concentrate on actually learning and comprehending the material - it will make annihilating the MCAT that much easier.

Also, to those mentioning the attrition of HES: I recently finished my first semester (Physics/Bio) and while it was difficult, A's were easily attainable if you worked hard. I actually found Physics to be easier than Biology (mainly because I'm convinced that the curve for A/A- in Bio was set unreasonably high. . . but oh well, nothing I can do there). Compared to my undergraduate classes, these were harder than anything I've taken save Calculus and Accounting (which was a gatekeeper course in my old program. . . brutal doesn't even begin to describe it). If you're as dedicated to the path as you seem, you'll find that you are actually interested in learning and mastering these topics, and the good grades seem to appear out of nowhere. I'm lucky enough that I work in a wonderful molecular biology research lab, so techniques and protocols I'm learning and using directly related to topics covered in my classes. It makes reading the textbook that much more enjoyable.

In essence, I'd recommend making a list of things you want in a program. Do you want structure? Is price a concern? Do you want urban or suburban? Do you want to compete with other undergraduate students or do you want dedicated post-bacc classrooms? Once that's done report back, and I'll see what I (and hopefully others) can do to help you.

Also, if you do your research you'll read about this mentality called FUD - fear, uncertainty and doubt. Knock all three of those thoughts out of your head right now. The pressure is going to be on your the next few years. Come to terms with that before starting classes. I know that there is no other career in this world other than medicine that will provide me with exactly what I want. That is the source for my motivation and dedication to school and work.

Oh well, corny motivational speech time is up. Good luck. Avoid the pre-allopathic side of this website like the plague.

 

[gupright1]

Johnnyscans,

Thank you so much for the indepth response. I am extremely impressed with everyone's desire to assist me with this undertaking. A thanks goes out to everyone that has replied!

Answers to your questions:

Do you want structure?
Yes. Structured programs always fit me best.

Is price a concern?

I am concerned about the price; however, I will attempt to make do by selling my car, loans, etc. I know I will have to sacrifice.

Do you want urban or suburban?

This doesn't matter to me. Though, from reading other posts urban areas give students more options with ECs. I live in Westchester County, NY and therefore I am 45 min train ride to NYC.

Do you want to compete with other undergraduate students or do you want dedicated post-bacc classrooms?

Dedicated post-bacc programs.

Thank you for your help.

 

[thlaxer]

Avoid the pre-allopathic side of this website like the plague.

👍 Good advice! The level of neuroticism there is unhealthy. There are a few gems in the pre-allo forum that are worth checking out though.

I also second your suggestion to the OP: get ready to feel the pressure when you begin classes. The entire post-bac and admissions process can seem very overwhelming at times, you need to:

-do well in all of your classes
-maintain some level of ECs (meaningful research experiences, in particular, are very time-consuming if that is something you wish to pursue)
-ask for LORs
-study for the MCAT (a part-time job in itself), and
-prepare written materials for your school's letter committee and ultimately for your application to med school.

If you stay organized and take things one step at a time though, this entire process does become significantly more manageable (if thousands of other postbaccers have done it successfully before you, why can't you?--there's my little pep talk lol). So if you ever feel stressed out, just take a step back and look at the big picture. I found that that helped me a lot.

Also, as Johnny said, the science classes you take at these schools are going to be more demanding than most of your undergrad classes. Some classes are hard become of the sheer volume of material required while other classes are conceptually difficult for some students. Inorganic Chemistry and Physics come to mind. Several of my friends really struggled in those classes (they got C+'s) not because they were lazy (they were very hard-working, never slacked off and studied day in and out), but because they struggled with the algebra. You mentioned being a business major so this might not be an issue for you, but it never hurts to brush up a bit before starting if you're worried (on a side note, I've been told that physics and chem at "easier schools" are less algebra-heavy, which I find a bit surprising--is it really still physics/chem without the math?--but there you have it).

In terms of the criteria you listed, pretty much all the programs mentioned here fit the bill. HES classes are on the cheaper side 🙂thumbup🙂 compared to Penn and Columbia. You're going to be classmates with more undergrads at Columbia than at Penn (Penn classes are almost all post-baccs at the introductory level, though you have the option to pay extra $ to be in the day time undergraduate classes). I heard that HES is like Penn--evening classes and mostly non-undergrads (please correct me if I'm wrong johnnyscans). In terms of advising, they're pretty much as hands-on or as hands-off as you want them to be. Also, if you choose Columbia, you might want to consider renting an efficiency/studio near the campus, a 1.5h daily commute is not fun. Living closer to campus will also make hanging out with classmates and doing ECs more manageable imo.

Anyways, this ended up being a long post, so thanks for bearing with me. Just wanted to say again that despite all the doom and gloom in my posts, I had an awesome time in my post bac program and many of my friends would say the same thing. Just be aware that almost everyone who goes into the post-bac program is going to be hard-working (and aiming for those A's) but not everyone comes out with a competitive GPA. The people who leave halfway through (or are forced to take additional grade-repair classes) are usually not going to be the people posting cautionary tales on this forum, which is why I'm being a pain in the *ss in their place 😛.

Best of luck OP with whichever school you pick! Time for me to crawl back to pre-allo .

 

[gupright1]

Thanks to everyone that has been responding. I really appreciate the help!

Opinion: Would I have a chance of getting into:

Columbia, NYU, CCNY, Hunter

And what would your choice be?

 

[johnnyscans]

-maintain some level of ECs (meaningful research experiences, in particular, are very time-consuming if that is something you wish to pursue)


Also, as Johnny said, the science classes you take at these schools are going to be more demanding than most of your undergrad classes. Some classes are hard become of the sheer volume of material required while other classes are conceptually difficult for some students. Inorganic Chemistry and Physics come to mind. Several of my friends really struggled in those classes (they got C+'s) not because they were lazy (they were very hard-working, never slacked off and studied day in and out), but because they struggled with the algebra. You mentioned being a business major so this might not be an issue for you, but it never hurts to brush up a bit before starting if you're worried (on a side note, I've been told that physics and chem at "easier schools" are less algebra-heavy, which I find a bit surprising--is it really still physics/chem without the math?--but there you have it).

In terms of the criteria you listed, pretty much all the programs mentioned here fit the bill. HES classes are on the cheaper side 🙂thumbup🙂 compared to Penn and Columbia. You're going to be classmates with more undergrads at Columbia than at Penn (Penn classes are almost all post-baccs at the introductory level, though you have the option to pay extra $ to be in the day time undergraduate classes). I heard that HES is like Penn--evening classes and mostly non-undergrads (please correct me if I'm wrong johnnyscans). In terms of advising, they're pretty much as hands-on or as hands-off as you want them to be.

-My research gig consumes at least 20 hours a week due to the nature of certain protocols and experiments. Even though my lab is awesome and helps me out where they can (since they understand that class is my priority), this still consumes a large chunk of my time. Oh well, sacrifices made in the pursuit of science . . . .and publications . . .

-Just to give you an idea of my schedule for this coming semester (just so you can have an idea at the time commitment you're going to be making). I'm in class 5 nights a week. 630-10 M, 6-10 T, 530-830 W, 6-9 Th, 5-630 F + four 4 hour physics labs scattered throughout. This, plus commuting time (since I'm a bike commuter) plus time at the lab plus clinical volunteering leaves just enough time in my day to work out and do homework/textbook readings. My schedule in undergrad and my 60+ hrs/wk job pale in comparison to how much ass I bust right now. Not trying to scare you away, but be ready to work.

-Totally agree on the physics part. If you are not comfortable with trigonometry, start reviewing it NOW. I'm serious. You will be in for a miserable life if you suck at trig.

-You're completely correct in regards to HES. Night classes, no undergrads (well, very few. Last semester I met one undergrad, and a few between HS/undergrad kids). They do offer lab/discussion sections during the day though for ease of scheduling. You're also correct in terms of advising. They're there if you need them, but they're not going to hold your hand through the process. That's why forums like this exist 👍

Thanks to everyone that has been responding. I really appreciate the help!

Opinion: Would I have a chance of getting into:

Columbia, NYU, CCNY, Hunter

And what would your choice be?

Hunter I'm 95% sure you'd have no problem getting into. I'm not familiar with the other programs. Do their websites have any information?

Keep in mind this is a lot of he said she said but:

-Supposedly advising and registration at Hunter is a nightmare, enough so that it has deterred people who were accepted.

-Either NYU or Columbia (I cannot remember off the top of my head) is viciously hard. I've heard rumors of something like an 80% attrition rate, which is why their "matriculate into medical school" statistic is so high. Hopefully someone answers with which program I'm thinking of but be prepared to WORK.

 

[gupright1]

In regard to Trig and Inorganic, any other class that I should start preparing for right now?

 

[perestroika]

Just to jump in real quick--

OP, you'd definitely get into CCNY and Hunter. Hunter's application deadline is wicked early, however, so you wouldn't be eligible until fall 2013 for admission. They only accept students for fall entrance and the deadline for 2012 was December 1. Also, their website states the program takes 2-3 years to complete (though I'm sure you could do some consolidating if you wanted to do it in a year).

I know next to nothing about NYU except from what I've heard from pre-med undergrads--one of them told me there were 300 people in his Physics class. As for Columbia, I've heard the post bac program is pretty much a cash cow for the school and isn't terribly hard to get into (considering it's an Ivy). They hold post-bac information sessions frequently, though, so I'd hit up one of those since you're so close to upper Manhattan anyway.

And I know you're looking for a structured program, but I volunteer with a guy who did his post-bac at Baruch informally and said it was fantastic, so it could be something to consider.

Good luck!

 

[gupright1]

Thanks Perestroika! I will look into Baruch as well. Best of luck to you as well.

 

[hgh817]

Thanks to everyone that has been responding. I really appreciate the help!

Opinion: Would I have a chance of getting into:

Columbia, NYU, CCNY, Hunter

And what would your choice be?

I applied to Hunter, Columbia and NYU for fall 2012. Hunter's deadline was last december, and I still haven't heard anything from them, but I wouldn't go there anyway. I already was accepted at NYU, but I'm still holding out hope for Bryn Mawr. I don't think you'll have a problem with NYU, but get your app in now. They sent me an email saying they received my application and the next day I received an email that I was accepted. I haven't heard from Columbia yet, but I also wouldn't go there if accepted as I have also heard their program/advising is a nightmare. One thing I do like about their program is that they appear helpful with finding volunteer work and it is built into their curriculum.
My roommate finished the Hopkins post bac this year and she always told me to stay far far away from Columbia because "their med school wouldn't accept their post bacs". She also met some Columbia post bacs during her med school interviews and they had a rough time and would not recommend it.
I'm also considering Rochester's post bac...have you thought about that, or are you trying to stay in NYC? It's a brand new program, so it doesn't have linkages. I do like that it's a 1 year program though.

Best of luck to you!

 

[gupright1]

I'm attempting to stay in the NYC area but I'll go anywhere that gives me the best overall package. As I said in a former post my girlfriend is in Columbia's OT program and she absolutely loves it. From my due diligence on Colombia I've seen hate it or love it feedback.

You said apply now but I haven't completed my EMT class or made the arrangements for the India clinics. Would they still accept me?

 

[gupright1]

Any thoughts on Suny purchase or manhattanville college?

 

[hgh817]

I'm attempting to stay in the NYC area but I'll go anywhere that gives me the best overall package. As I said in a former post my girlfriend is in Columbia's OT program and she absolutely loves it. From my due diligence on Colombia I've seen hate it or love it feedback.

You said apply now but I haven't completed my EMT class or made the arrangements for the India clinics. Would they still accept me?

I don't really understand why you need to finish your class or make arrangements to go to India before you apply. They have a section on their app that asks what you plan to do in the next few months if you're worried that your app will look less impressive without those two things.

 

[gupright1]

I was worried but that cleared everything up. I appreciate it. Thank you.

 

[SixStringPsych]

Gupright1, I have called Manhattanville myself to inquire about their program in the past and they told me straight up that it was an informal program where you just sign up Unmatriculated and take courses. So, not worth it IMO unless its cheaper than some other options and you want to go DIY.