Introduction and first thread.

[robotshrink]

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32 year old non-trad here, stepping form the lurker shadows to introduce myself and solicit advice/feedback. I'm making the leap from IT/web work to medicine and hopefully research as well. Looking for help on how to proceed and succeed, and whether or not my plan is viable, and how I might execute it.

First, thanks for the amazingly inspirational, entertaining, relieving, and supportive posts that I've been reading. What a great community.

I have an A.S. in computer science and about 24 credits besides including some med pre-reqs, but I suspect I'll have to retake some and do another 2-3 years of undergrad to finish up. As a teenager I dropped out of school a few times while suffering from depression and anxiety, and as a result I have quite a few F's from classes I never completed. My cGPA is a 2.745 as a result, even though my A.S. and other recent classes are all 3.6+. I applied to my local uni (UMD College Park), assuming I'd get in, but it turns out they need a 3.0+ cGPA and I'm now applying more widely for Spring 2011 including small private colleges and other state universities. By asking around I was able to rule out online degrees as an option for pre-med, so I know I'll have to essentially live cheaply on loans for the next 2-3 years while I finish my B.S. degree.

I grew up in a medical (nursing, not Dr) family, and dated someone through medical school and R1, so I understand a bit about the lifestyle/hours, though I know until I try it I won't truly understand what it's like. I am excited about the person-to-person aspect of medicine, as well as the science and writing/research opportunities. I'm heavily leaning towards psychiatry and research on technologies for improved psychiatric care (beyond meds). Ideally I'd develop technologies and apply them with my patients at some point, which I know is pretty much unheard of but seems possible with the right background. I am also considering investing some time to write a book about borderline personality disorder and schizophrenia based on family experiences, and wonder if this would be a good research project, or just a distraction.

This is becoming long winded. In short - I am concerned that with my F's my GPA may not rise much above 3.2 even with fabulous grades from here on out. Also, I understand that MD/PHD and combined science programs are generally even more competitive than medical school programs because of the stipends and I'm not sure I'll make it in even with some decent research and MCATs.

I'm also worried about taking out $100k in loans for the rest of my undergrad, plus another $150k for medical school. Realistically I wonder if I can squeeze in any side work or freelance work to help with that... or if I'll just have to take the plunge.

Is my path to being able to do science AND clinical work the right one? Alternatives?

Okay, one more thing! When I go back to school in the Spring what should my major be? Some schools allow you to "do your own major" - does it matter as long as I fulfil my requirements for med school? I am guessing not and wonder if I can do some kind of mashup that would help me get some research in for my med school application.

Anyone in a similar situation or know someone who is? Looking forward to sharing many more long rambling posts! 😀

 

[robotshrink]

Short version: on the verge of switching tracks to medicine, wondering just how crazy the idea is A) at my age B) with my school history C) being self-supporting.

I gather from the other threads that what I'm doing isn't THAT unusual, but some advice would be lovely.

 

[robotshrink]

Is this this the right place to brainstorm about getting ready to apply to medical school as an older student with an unusual history?

Anyone out there with an opinion and some words of wisdom? (Be careful what you ask for, I know...)

 

[cloverpie]

32 year old non-trad here, stepping form the lurker shadows to introduce myself and solicit advice/feedback. I'm making the leap from IT/web work to medicine and hopefully research as well. Looking for help on how to proceed and succeed, and whether or not my plan is viable, and how I might execute it.

First, thanks for the amazingly inspirational, entertaining, relieving, and supportive posts that I've been reading. What a great community.

I have an A.S. in computer science and about 24 credits besides including some med pre-reqs, but I suspect I'll have to retake some and do another 2-3 years of undergrad to finish up. As a teenager I dropped out of school a few times while suffering from depression and anxiety, and as a result I have quite a few F's from classes I never completed. My cGPA is a 2.745 as a result, even though my A.S. and other recent classes are all 3.6+. I applied to my local uni (UMD College Park), assuming I'd get in, but it turns out they need a 3.0+ cGPA and I'm now applying more widely for Spring 2011 including small private colleges and other state universities. By asking around I was able to rule out online degrees as an option for pre-med, so I know I'll have to essentially live cheaply on loans for the next 2-3 years while I finish my B.S. degree.

I grew up in a medical (nursing, not Dr) family, and dated someone through medical school and R1, so I understand a bit about the lifestyle/hours, though I know until I try it I won't truly understand what it's like. I am excited about the person-to-person aspect of medicine, as well as the science and writing/research opportunities. I'm heavily leaning towards psychiatry and research on technologies for improved psychiatric care (beyond meds). Ideally I'd develop technologies and apply them with my patients at some point, which I know is pretty much unheard of but seems possible with the right background. I am also considering investing some time to write a book about borderline personality disorder and schizophrenia based on family experiences, and wonder if this would be a good research project, or just a distraction.

This is becoming long winded. In short - I am concerned that with my F's my GPA may not rise much above 3.2 even with fabulous grades from here on out. Also, I understand that MD/PHD and combined science programs are generally even more competitive than medical school programs because of the stipends and I'm not sure I'll make it in even with some decent research and MCATs.

I'm also worried about taking out $100k in loans for the rest of my undergrad, plus another $150k for medical school. Realistically I wonder if I can squeeze in any side work or freelance work to help with that... or if I'll just have to take the plunge.

Is my path to being able to do science AND clinical work the right one? Alternatives?

Okay, one more thing! When I go back to school in the Spring what should my major be? Some schools allow you to "do your own major" - does it matter as long as I fulfil my requirements for med school? I am guessing not and wonder if I can do some kind of mashup that would help me get some research in for my med school application.

Anyone in a similar situation or know someone who is? Looking forward to sharing many more long rambling posts! 😀

How is your research experience? That's going to factor heavily into your MD/Ph.D decisions. I would also try to avoid working full-time while completing your pre-requisites. I made that mistake and shot myself in the foot. You'll need to focus all of your energy on acing your classes and the MCAT.

 

[robotshrink]

How is your research experience? That's going to factor heavily into your MD/Ph.D decisions. I would also try to avoid working full-time while completing your pre-requisites. I made that mistake and shot myself in the foot. You'll need to focus all of your energy on acing your classes and the MCAT.

Hey, thanks for the reply! Now to ramble a bit more...

My research experience is nil - I just recently made the decision to pursue another career. Up until now I've been working full time since dropping out of college, and in the meantime got an A.S. in Comp. Sci. going part time. No real research to speak of unfortunately - I have to start now.

Thanks for the pointer on working - it seems like it makes sense. How about working part time? I can charge $50/hour for the work I do, so I could foresee-ably live on the proceeds from part time work, but I'm afraid I'll be distracted by continuing my current career which requires I constantly stay up to date on a range of things that have little or nothing to do with medicine and science. It may mean the difference between owing $250k and $100k by the time I'm done, or it may make less of a difference than it seems and hold me back. So many options. I hate options. 🙂

I envision spending the next 2-3 years finishing my undergrad, doing a few research papers and summer internships in labs, and volunteering at hospitals/clinics. Does that seem like a good plan as a future med school hopeful? Aside from those things, good grades, and good MCAT scores, should I be thinking of anything else in terms of getting into MD/PhD (or other research) programs? I feel like I may be disadvantaged because I dropped out twice and have the F's to prove it (see my first post for details), but hope I can overcome that between my more recent, better grades, and what I do in the next 2-3 years.

Right now I'm making a list of 20 schools to apply to for Spring 2011, since my first choice didn't accept me, and the other local school I can walk into doesn't seem very promising (University of the District of Columbia which has an abysmal reputation and campus, but is much more affordable and local).

 

[futIDdoc]

Frank assessment from a non-trad in medical school

1. Your chances of becoming an MD/PhD student are vanishingly small with your grades. Those spots are extremely competitive(3.8 + GPA, usually over 35 MCAT) and having failures on your transcripts will almost be a certain rejection. (besides, you are 32. With three years of undergrad and four years of medical school w/ an additional 3-6 yrs of residency that puts you at 42-46 by the time you are an attending. Adding another 3-5 yrs to get a phd puts you close to 50).

2. You need to do exceedingly well in your undergrad classes to get into medical school to make up for your grades. (Not impossible, but a serious hurdle, trust me I've been there)

3. If you are worried about debt and grades and want to do something clinical, seriously consider PA school. They have a relatively large amount of autonomy, get paid better than some primary care docs and the programs are not as competitive and short. If you want to do research, just go and get a phd.

 

[n3xa]

If you are worried about debt and grades and want to do something clinical, seriously consider PA school. They have a relatively large amount of autonomy, get paid better than some primary care docs and the programs are not as competitive and short. If you want to do research, just go and get a phd.

YMMV, but hearing the stats of the incoming class at some PA schools in the Chicagoland area (median gpa 3.8) made me think otherwise in terms of competitiveness.

 

[Pons Asinorum]

1. Your chances of becoming an MD/PhD student are vanishingly small with your grades.

This. Blunt, but very true. I appreciate the ra-ra spirit of the non-trad forum, but sometimes an honest assessment is more valuable than a confidence boost. I usually find the "what are my chances?" threads depressing for that reason - a bunch of replies of "you can achieve anything you want if you work hard!" to a guy with a 2.4/23N who RIGHTFULLY should not be filling one of the admissions slots in a U.S. allopathic medical school. OP, I think you have a great chance of getting in somewhere, I'm not pointing a finger at you. Just have a sober understanding of where your probable stats place you in relation to the median of your target schools. The MSAR is your sometimes-too-honest friend. Best of luck and welcome!

 

[futIDdoc]

n3xa-

Don't get me wrong, you have to do well to get into a decent PA program. I was just making the point that they are not as highly competitive as MD/PhD programs (literally a hundred applicants per spot). Pons has some good advice in checking with the MSAR and the OP might even go as far as calling the admissions dept at a couple of prospective schools. Its a tough process, you need to be positive and believe that you'll be successful, but you need to temper this with a healthy dose of realism. Medicine is not "everybody gets a trophy day" and there are winners and losers.

 

[Pons Asinorum]

n3xa-
Medicine is not "everybody gets a trophy day" and there are winners and losers.

A truly "traditional" concept, that sometimes only seems to be understood in the Non-Trad area of the pre-allo forums. Fascinating...

 

[robotshrink]

futIDdoc - Thanks for the reality check on MD/PhD. I intend to do R&D work as part of my practice (in an ideal world), but maybe I can do that without the PhD. I'd like to do some teaching maybe, but not necessarily have a full time faculty position anywhere - is that the only reason I'd NEED to go the PhD route?

Pons Asinorum - Thanks for the information. I'd actually never seen the MSAR before but will be researching that now.

For various reasons I'm not interested in being anything other than a full fledged physician/psychiatrist, so the PA route isn't for me. It sounds like I need to determine if med school is even a real option, or not. I'm not wedded to MD vs DO, so I have more options than some, though that may change as I do more research (and ask around more).

My next big challenge is how much am I willing to spend on undergrad. The local (bad reputation) school is cheap/free, but if I pass it up to go to a better school in the spring A) it will set me back 6 months B) it will set me back tens of thousands of dollars (maybe $50-100k), and C) I don't know how much better my chances will be when applying to med school. Also when I'm there, do I do CS + premed, or just biochem, or an interdisciplinary thing that puts me on the research path I'm interested in (some schools have a psyh oriented interdisciplinary path that might be good for a future psychiatrist).

Any thoughts on my path with undergrad at this point? Thanks folks.

 

[ChE04]

As far as research goes, is there much difference between psychiatry and psychology? Just wondering because of my ignorance; I thought they were pretty similar (post-school) except for the ability to write prescriptions. Obviously psychologists don't have the medical background, but other than that?

 

[robotshrink]

ChE04 - psychiatry involves a medical school education (heavily focused on treatment of physical illness and pharmacology) and then a lot of hands-on with physical illness treatment and pharmacology again, whereas psychology involves neither. That's a pretty huge difference. Psychologists can do talk therapy, but psychiatrists can do talk therapy, treat physical symptoms, AND utilize pharmacology.

Since I plan to treat the whole person from the mind to the brain to the body, using all available techniques including pharma but also technology beyond pharma, I feel psychiatry is where I want to go. The hands-on approach of DO intrigues me as well since touch can be a powerful treatment, but I don't know much about it at this point.

PS. I really don't know what I'm talking about here, so please correct me if I'm off track. Trying to figure it all out. 🙂

 

[cloverpie]

As far as research goes, is there much difference between psychiatry and psychology? Just wondering because of my ignorance; I thought they were pretty similar (post-school) except for the ability to write prescriptions. Obviously psychologists don't have the medical background, but other than that?

robotshrink, this may be reassuring to you. ChE04 raises an excellent question and I feel somewhat qualified to answer having done 4+ years of psychiatry/neuroscience research. If your primary goal is to conduct psychiatry research, an MD will not be any more useful and in fact may be worse training than a Ph.D. You enumerated the difference between how a psychologist and psychiatrist treat patients but there is no difference in what broader questions they are asking, the methodology or eventual access to patient populations. You describe your potential research as something that would lie in a computational neuroscience realm and the MD will only be an advantage if you want to work with patient populations faster, actually run a practice or do clinical trials. MD's also have an easier time with grant money but that's hairy and irrelevant to the topic at hand.

You may want to look more into clinical neuroscience programs (doctoral degrees) or clinical psychology. Ph.D programs are far less grades-oriented and focus heavily on recommendations and research experience. Not trying to deter you at all but your goals may in fact be much better in line with a Ph.D.

 

[robotshrink]

cloverpie, thanks for another thoughtful response!

I received similar advice from my friend in family medicine R3, who suggested a PhD in Cog. Sci or Neuro would be more up my alley. However, I really like the idea of working with patients holistically as a physician as well as a therapist. I believe that the body and mind are impossible to separate, and I'd like to have unfettered access to the physicality of my patients. This is both for day to day treatment but also for clinical trials of my own inventions and for my own research.

OTOH, the idea of spending 4 less years to get where I'm going is tempting. I don't want to do that just to save time though, since I really want to learn how the entire body works, and have practical experience with whole-body treatment. I am afraid of being locked in an ivory tower of abstract theory and not being able to talk to or touch my patients. I'm afraid of being bored out of my mind in a way that I don't see being as a psychiatrist. I could be naive, and probably am, but them's my thoughts.

 

[Evergrey]

ChE04 - psychiatry involves a medical school education (heavily focused on treatment of physical illness and pharmacology) and then a lot of hands-on with physical illness treatment and pharmacology again, whereas psychology involves neither. That's a pretty huge difference. Psychologists can do talk therapy, but psychiatrists can do talk therapy, treat physical symptoms, AND utilize pharmacology.

Since I plan to treat the whole person from the mind to the brain to the body, using all available techniques including pharma but also technology beyond pharma, I feel psychiatry is where I want to go. The hands-on approach of DO intrigues me as well since touch can be a powerful treatment, but I don't know much about it at this point.

PS. I really don't know what I'm talking about here, so please correct me if I'm off track. Trying to figure it all out. 🙂

Hey robotshrink, first off -- good luck with your decision! It is hard to figure all of this out, especially after having been out of school for so long.

My girlfriend is applying to clinical psychology programs right now, so I thought I would add some perspective on psychiatry vs. psychology.

First of all, psychiatry as you noted is quite different from psychology. I will point out though that being able to do psychotherapy effectively as a psychiatrist takes a lot of additional training. If you are interested in therapy as a psychiatrist, it is certainly possibly and many do it, but it is my impression that a psychologist will still usually be better than a psychiatrist.

Additionally, psychologists can get (very) limited prescribing power for basic psych meds in certain states (New Mexico and Florida, IIRC) if they go through additional training/certification. Moreover, it is possible to become an NP as a psychologist in order to get prescription privileges. Although personally, I would not be comfortable prescribing psych meds without psych residency training. I didn't know if you knew about this, so I thought I would share all of the different options with you.

In terms of general advice, I guess what I would recommend to you is to consider your educational path in both immediate and long-term respects. Perhaps it would benefit you to have a short term goal (get a bachelor's degree in an interesting field that would give me good job prospects upon graduation) while exploring long term goals (while working toward the BA/BS, shadow lots of different healthcare providers that you are interested in, get involved with research, volunteer in medical settings like an inpatient psych ward if you can manage). Of course, doing all of those things will help you build a good resume if you want to eventually decide to medical school. More importantly though it will help you make informed decisions about this entire process.

I also thought it would be useful to note that the average MD/PhD graduate does not get their first R01 grant (major research grant which signifies the start of their true research career) until around 40 years old -- and this is for people who usually go into MD/PhD around 22. MD/PhD is not a very forgiving process for the non-trad because it is 8-9 years of school, PLUS residency (4 years) and then usually a fellowship in order to get specialized training for your research (1-2 years). Think about it -- that is a minimum of 13 years of training, likely more, and then you have to start building your research career in order to really get moving. Remember, you can do significant research as an MD, but it probably won't be the intense basic science research that an MD/PhD is trained for. You can always get more research training after you get your MD, but it will end up taking as long as the MD/PhD and cost more because the MD part wasn't free, so this route is not recommended 😛

I don't know your situation well enough to recommend a path for you, but if I had to give advice I would suggest going to a nice four-year university.. a not-for-profit public or private school where there is neuroscience research and a neuroscience major. Take the classes, get involved in neuro research ASAP and this will help you decide if this is what you truly want.

I know a lot of people advocate deciding what to do and then committing to that goal thereafter, but I believe in a more organic process. Midway through college I was signed up, and had paid the deposit for, a yearlong study abroad program in Japan. But it occurred to me that I was really unhappy with my academic direction, and so I gave it up in order to stay and explore other paths. At the beginning, my goal was "take science classes and get to know more about what I like," which ultimately evolved into a desire to pursue the MD degree (although I was always interested in it along with a few other paths). I don't know if that kind of process works for you, but IMO it may give you the best chance of long-term happiness because it a) allows you to see what your capable of scholastically and plan your career around that as well as b) gives you a lot of time to explore different paths to make sure the one you choose is the best.

I hope this helps. I vomited words all over this thread 🙂 I didn't know where to start so I just wrote a lot.

 

[robotshrink]

Evergrey - thanks for the wise and informative reply. I really like the idea of going down the path, but also playing to my immediate interests so that there's room to evolve them. My friend in family medicine knew that she wanted to be a doc as a little girl, and I envy that sort of clarity. For me, it only became apparent that medicine was an ideal mix for me recently when I realized that I want to be doing a bunch of things that come together nicely in medicine (talking to people, healing people, writing, researching, problem solving).

I think I'll try to follow your advice more or less, and "try out" the whole doctor thing, while exploring my passions. This seems like the most "honest" way to arrive at becoming a physician, which because of the prestige and barrier-to-entry can seem like a rash decision even on a good day.

I'll keep posting as I figure this out. I'm on a quest to do all of the things I love in a way that gives back to the world.

 

[Evergrey]

Evergrey - thanks for the wise and informative reply. I really like the idea of going down the path, but also playing to my immediate interests so that there's room to evolve them. My friend in family medicine knew that she wanted to be a doc as a little girl, and I envy that sort of clarity. For me, it only became apparent that medicine was an ideal mix for me recently when I realized that I want to be doing a bunch of things that come together nicely in medicine (talking to people, healing people, writing, researching, problem solving).

I think I'll try to follow your advice more or less, and "try out" the whole doctor thing, while exploring my passions. This seems like the most "honest" way to arrive at becoming a physician, which because of the prestige and barrier-to-entry can seem like a rash decision even on a good day.

I'll keep posting as I figure this out. I'm on a quest to do all of the things I love in a way that gives back to the world.

Good luck! It'll be fun to explore everything. There are a lot of interesting and amazing careers out there that could fit you well. Plus, if you do things this way, then you will end up with a convincing "life story" to write about in your personal statement if you do indeed decide to go through with medicine 🙂 Or whatever else, for that matter.