Is 8k a day a good DAILY in average in PRODUCTION?

[toothmagic]

Okay, I am going to try to make this post short, thank you for answering...

To make a story short, I have a friend. He is an international dentist and got his license last year. So he is not very familiar with payments and stuff. So he started working as an associate, The contract says VERBATIM, "3000 for the first 3 months, biweekly... then 25% of the collection". I told him to get a lawyer, but he said it was too expensive. OKAY... So he made the 3k, and then COVID happened just when he started to collect, He got paid during the quarantined these amount, which wasn't as much like ~2800 So after COVID, the owner was like, okay 3k until you start collecting again, b/c he moved him to a new practice. At first, they praised him "oh the first time this practice has produced that much bla bla.." He works alone w/ 1 hygienist.
He kept asking when he would start collecting. So almost 4 months later. NOW is that he was starting to collect. His production daily is no less than 3500 a day, somedays even 6k. His paycheck from the collection came out clean 2800k or something. The owner says he is not making enough! Even saying the hygienist produces more...And, he asked how much he had to do daily to see more money, they told him 8k daily! He was shocked. Also, he is just given a simple paycheck, the collection amount x % no included, and he asked for it, it was given to him in a piece of white paper like just a simple word doc, his name, the collection amount x the % - lab fees, divide by 2, so paying biweekly. I told him to check the amount on the computer but he doesn't know-how.
The office is not open FRIDAY AND sees many Medicaid patients though, so he might be not getting paid for it... I dunno.

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[ToothJockey]

Whaaaattt

8k/day for a GP seems like a pretty lofty goal, that translates to almost 2 million a year in production if working 240 days/yr.

I'm curious, what does the owner produce?

 

[toothmagic]

Whaaaattt

8k/day for a GP seems like a pretty lofty goal, that translates to almost 2 million a year in production if working 240 days/yr.

I'm curious, what does the owner produce?

The owner doesn't produce, he works alone there. The owner only goes around from time to time, maybe work 1 case or 2, but is very random. On the daily production sheet shows the owner + a production amount, and another dentist my friend has never seen + production amount.

He doesn't work FRIDAY'S my friend ... I mean... but in the previous office, he worked Fridays.

First, they told him insurances hadn't approved (reason to take so long for him to start collecting, keep in mind this is after he move to 2nd location)

He has been told (by the front desk,) some insurances are unwilling to pay b/c previous things the owner would bill that were not transparent... The owner told him he made 17k on 1 day one time.

 

[dentistrydmd]

Sounds very sketchy

 

[nbde4dds]

Wow, is that a private dentist or a DSO?

 

[Boat on the Chesapeake]

To answer the title not the original post:

At the DSO I work for the “goal” for GP’s was 2500 now 3000. I think specialists are $5k. 30% of collections no lab fees. Therefore, you’d need around 1700 to take home $500 per day.

I don’t know what percent of asssociates are above or below. I average around goal but most days are a bit lower or way way higher depending on major procedures. Some of our high producing GP’s average double that with lots of crown and bridge, implants, and Invisalign.

 

[Steins;Gate]

To answer the title not the original post:

At the DSO I work for the “goal” for GP’s was 2500 now 3000. I think specialists are $5k. 30% of collections no lab fees. Therefore, you’d need around 1700 to take home $500 per day.

I don’t know what percent of asssociates are above or below. I average around goal but most days are a bit lower or way way higher depending on major procedures. Some of our high producing GP’s average double that with lots of crown and bridge, implants, and Invisalign.

Is it also 30 percent of collections for specialists?

 

[Boat on the Chesapeake]

Is it also 30 percent of collections for specialists?

I do not know, it may be higher.

 

[ToothJockey]

To answer the title not the original post:

At the DSO I work for the “goal” for GP’s was 2500 now 3000. I think specialists are $5k. 30% of collections no lab fees. Therefore, you’d need around 1700 to take home $500 per day.

I don’t know what percent of asssociates are above or below. I average around goal but most days are a bit lower or way way higher depending on major procedures. Some of our high producing GP’s average double that with lots of crown and bridge, implants, and Invisalign.

Do DSO's just have a limitless amount of patients? Is your production typically capped by how fast you are rather than how many patients they have for you to treat?

 

[Boat on the Chesapeake]

Do DSO's just have a limitless amount of patients? Is your production typically capped by how fast you are rather than how many patients they have for you to treat?

Limitless supply of patients, especially those with poorly reimbursing insurance, yes. Speed makes a bigger difference, there’s usually not a lot of down time. It takes a lot of practice to do good dentistry quickly though. DSO’s are good for getting those reps in but would recommend a GPR first or some supplemental mentorship.

Treatment planning also makes a a big difference. One dentist’s “you’re good for another six months” is another’s “we can correct that bite with Invisalign and improve your smile with some porcelain veneers afterward”. Some of this is greed, some of this is the difference experience and CE make with recognizing malocclusion, bruxism, esthetic proportions, what cracks need treatment vs monitoring, and many other topics. Ten reasonable dentists will give you a range of different treatment plans. Sometimes the best plan for the patient is the cheapest and sometimes it’s the most expensive.

 

[OMSDoc]

There are advantages and disadvantages in everything. Your friend's situation shows one of the apparent disadvantages of being an associate (vs. opening a solo practice): the sense that you are working hard, but not getting paid enough.

The way to look at this is to turn it around and look at it from the owner's perspective. What does an associate have to collect to justify his or her take home salary?

There are three financial factors that affect what the doctor gets paid:

1. Charges
2. Overhead
3. Percent collections

Associates have some control in charges via how many patients they see and what dentistry they perform. As noted above, this amounts to efficiency and the types of procedures performed.

Overhead is what it costs you to provide the care. I don't know about general dentistry, by my overhead can approach 70-75 percent sometimes. I include in this what I have to pay for bank loans (which are never ending) and what I pay for retirement for my staff, the associate, and me. The associate has very little control over the overhead.

Percent collections is how much cash you receive, divided by how much you charge, and this varies on many things:

1. How much are the write-downs from patient's "insurance" plans? This varies widely geographically.
2. How many of the patients truly have little or no money? What is your policy about these patients?
3. How many of the patients have money, but would rather spend it on other things? For example, how many patients would rather smoke a pack of cigarettes a day, or buy a $10,000 bass boat, than pay for dentistry?

Medicaid and Medicare notoriously only reimburse 10-to-30 percent of our charges, and many private insurance plans are following suit. Frequently, we are forced by law or by contract to write-off the rest. So, if your friend is seeing mostly Medicaid patients, the reimbursement does not even cover the overhead, much less the salary of the associate.

If I were asked for advice from someone in the shoes of your friend, I would say:

1. You are blessed to be a professional in one of the oldest and most respected professions on the planet.
2. As long as you work there, keep your chin up, be positive, and do the best dentistry that you can. It's surprising how happy you can be if you just make up your mind to be happy.
3. Treat the patients very well. This makes you a valuable clinician.
4. Read the contract again. If you are really miserable, how much notice do you need to give to leave? Whatever you do, don't break your contract.
5. Get advice from an employment attorney.
6. What other options do you have if you leave where you are now?
7. Avoid practice management consultants.
8. Did I say get advice from an employment attorney?
9. Consider opening your own practice.

 

[2TH MVR]

There are advantages and disadvantages in everything. Your friend's situation shows one of the apparent disadvantages of being an associate (vs. opening a solo practice): the sense that you are working hard, but not getting paid enough.



If I were asked for advice from someone in the shoes of your friend, I would say:

1. You are blessed to be a professional in one of the oldest and most respected professions on the planet.
2. As long as you work there, keep your chin up, be positive, and do the best dentistry that you can. It's surprising how happy you can be if you just make up your mind to be happy.
3. Treat the patients very well. This makes you a valuable clinician.
4. Read the contract again. If you are really miserable, how much notice do you need to give to leave? Whatever you do, don't break your contract.
5. Get advice from an employment attorney.
6. What other options do you have if you leave where you are now?
7. Avoid practice management consultants.
8. Did I say get advice from an employment attorney?
9. Consider opening your own practice.

If it ever got to the point where an attorney is required ..... I would say the employee-employer relationship is over. Time to move on.

 

[theleatherwalle]

Limitless supply of patients, especially those with poorly reimbursing insurance, yes. Speed makes a bigger difference, there’s usually not a lot of down time. It takes a lot of practice to do good dentistry quickly though. DSO’s are good for getting those reps in but would recommend a GPR first or some supplemental mentorship.

Treatment planning also makes a a big difference. One dentist’s “you’re good for another six months” is another’s “we can correct that bite with Invisalign and improve your smile with some porcelain veneers afterward”. Some of this is greed, some of this is the difference experience and CE make with recognizing malocclusion, bruxism, esthetic proportions, what cracks need treatment vs monitoring, and many other topics. Ten reasonable dentists will give you a range of different treatment plans. Sometimes the best plan for the patient is the cheapest and sometimes it’s the most expensive.

this is much more realistic contract. 8k? I feel most dentist produce somewhere between 2-3k on average

 

[toothmagic]

Thank you all, my friend is considering moving on, he still not making $$, but the owner has a clause that if he leaves before 1 yr he loses any mone he is own. The owner wants him to make 100k a month in production, lol... he made 67k in production last month, and according to the owner only 48k was collected, the payment was super duper low, after-tax like 2k. He is also charging him 25% Lab fees, lol... My friend was very naive, but thank god he doesn't have a contract, he only needs to give a 30-day notice. He just feels pretty bad because he loves the environment he is working in, w/ the assistants and patients.

 

[dentistrydmd]

Wow such a bad situation. It sounds like the owner is taking advantage of naïveté of the employee

 

[SchwarzKorkhaus]

no contract is already a big red flag. and if there's no contract why does he even need to give 30 day notice?

 

[Mauricio45]

The OP's post reminds me of the common mantra spouted in dentistry and on DentalTown, 'DENTISTS EAT THEIR YOUNG'.