Is Cornell worth the OOS tuition cost?

[hygebeorht]

Hi guys. I've been lurking on and off for a couple years here, but never joined because I didn't really have anything to add or anything I needed answered. But now I have a straight-up dilemma and it's probably only going to get tougher.

I am lucky this year to have the hard choice of CSU vs. Cornell. I'm still waiting to hear back from another 4 schools, one of my top choices (NCSU) among them.

I am truly stuck. As you applicants know, I have until April 15th to make my choice, but I have never been in this position before, where I truly have no clear frontrunner and feel quite torn.

CSU is my IS school. I have lived in CO for most of my life, but I thrive on new people and places and get cabin fever very quickly. When I returned to CO four years ago from South Korea, where I lived and worked for a year, it wasn't particularly willingly. While I want to return to CO in the future, in the meantime I want to go places and meet people and do new things. While it seems ludicrous to turn CSU down (it's CSU!), I have many reasons that tempt me to abandon the Centennial State.

For starters, I am very cost-conscious. I applied to seven schools, five because they made good financial sense, and two because I have a big-ass ego. I was not expecting to be accepted to UC Davis (I wasn't) nor Cornell (I was, obviously). I was completely expecting to be rejected by Cornell, and so I didn't really investigate the school thoroughly. Next week I'll be going there for an admissions information session, and I hope to learn more.

As I said, I am very cost-conscious. My partner is a musician, so there's not a ton of financial help there. Tuition for four years at CSU is about 100k, NCSU (inshallah I get in) is about 80k, and Cornell is about 180k. These figures do not account for tuition hikes, because I figure they'll probably be about even across the board. They don't account for cost of living, but I'm able to live like a churchmouse anywhere. I'm an older student, and I have a good appreciation of money and how hard it sucks not to have it.

It's true I don't have all the information yet to make choices, because I'm waiting on four more schools. But for now I have a choice between CSU and Cornell, and I may be looking at more options in the near future.

My question: are there such amazing advantages that come from a degree at the top institution for vet med in the US that it would offset the costs of attending? In terms of starting salary, contacts, resources? I know that farther down the totem pole, the difference between a higher-ranked school and a lower doesn't amount to much, but would it be wise to attend Cornell even though it would cost me about 100k more in tuition and fees? I'd love it if some current students can help me out here. I am for sure stuck between a rock and a hard place.

There are a lot of factors going into this decision. I'd love to hear your thoughts on all aspects of the choice, vis a vis town environs, educational setting, costs, travel, etc.

THANK YOU

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[bbeventer]

No matter what school you go to you will graduate with DVM behind your name, and that's what truly counts. Factoring in cost is something that is up to you. You have to weigh your personal happiness against financial burden.

Personally, when I was applying I had was thinking no cost is to great to getting my dream, the truth hits close to home when you hit accept on a huge loan. For me I am glad I chose my IS. It is by far cheaper than going OOS, and it opened up a scholarship for me which has reduced my school cost more than I could have ever dreamed.

Good luck in your decision and hopefully the information session can help you out

 

[frozen_canadian]

Go to CSU. No question. It's a quality school and school attended has very little to no influence on success in the veterinary world. In 5 years time when loans are due you'll thank me 🙂 If you get cabin fever go on a few blow out vacations a year while in school. Still much much cheaper than $100,000 plus interest.

 

[stressedvet308]

The way I see it, you are going to be studying more hours a day than not at any vet school you go to, so not much time for a social life....chose the cheaper school! Also wouldn't it be better to start of your vet career with less debt!! I also agree that rankings of vet schools are kind of pointless and don't hold a lot of value since there are so few schools in the country, most of these "rankings" are based on popularity and cornell being #1 may have more to do with the name than the actual quality of the program! I think all DVM programs in the US are pretty equal and it also depends on what you want to study and where you want to practice. I've heard that you should go to a school near where you want to practice because some schools teach to exams in that state. if you ultimately want to practice in CO going to CSU is probably a better option!

 

[Emiloo4]

If you DO care about rankings for some reason, CSU is right up there with Cornell and for almost half the cost. There's no question in my mind.

 

[Minnerbelle]

If you're thinking about doubling your tuition just to not be stuck in CO, with that extra 80k+ you could totally go travel all you want during winter breaks of the first 3 years (CSU has looooong breaks) as well as the first 2 summers and still have a hunk of change left over. And you can go off and do the coolest externships/preceptorships during your elective rotations around the country/globe and not feel as bad about the finance aspect of it... or... you can be stuck in boring ole ithaca for 4 years. I mean, you can find cheap ways of travelling through grants and stipends and stuff, but you're not guaranteed them.

 

[equineconstant]

I've heard that you should go to a school near where you want to practice because some schools teach to exams in that state. if you ultimately want to practice in CO going to CSU is probably a better option!

Also, if you're planning on practicing in that state, that state's school might have a better reputation locally. I was recently talking to my dad about how being an LSU alum might open more doors if I stay and practice in Louisiana because pretty much everyone around supports LSU and there are so many other LSU alumni around as opposed to if I go OOS.

 

[orcagirl]

Money plays a factor for some people. Others say, I'm going to be in debt anyway, why not just go where I want. Money (as well as a couple other factors) is the reason I ended up at NC State. I had WICHE funding for CSU, but it was actually cheaper (well the same price factoring in a scholarship at CSU) to go to NCSU. You are looking at comparing the top ranked programs. I'd say that choosing one over the other should not make a huge difference in your career trajectory. Also I've got a friend going to Cornell. She mentioned they take blocks of classes rather than semesters. Curriculum is another thing to take into consideration, when choosing a school.

 

[kernel]

Personally, I don't give a hoot about a school's ranking. The best human-surgeon and the best human-oncologist I know went to middle-tier medical schools. If they ever had patients that were skeptical because of the name of the school on the placard on their office walls, those doctors were obviously good enough to change their patients' minds.

If prestige is that important to someone, fine, spend the money. I just think it's silly.
In my opinion, the best doctor is one who can prove their worth through their own work.

 

[felinelvr44]

If you plan on living and practicing in Colorado after vet school that might be reason to choose CSU over Cornell. While I'm sure it varies, an equine vet I shadowed in PA told me that they always chose to hire Penn grads over other schools because they felt like Penn grads were "better." I think it probably also had something to do with the fact that all the other doctors at the practice went to Penn too 🙄. I'm not saying it's right but they can't be the only practice who does something like that.

 

[stressedvet308]

If you plan on living and practicing in Colorado after vet school that might be reason to choose CSU over Cornell. While I'm sure it varies, an equine vet I shadowed in PA told me that they always chose to hire Penn grads over other schools because they felt like Penn grads were "better." I think it probably also had something to do with the fact that all the other doctors at the practice went to Penn too 🙄. I'm not saying it's right but they can't be the only practice who does something like that.

Proably had a lot to do with that they all went to Penn!

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Is Cornell a wonderful school? Yes.

Is it worth the OOS tuition when you are already accepted to your IS school? NO. No, a thousand times no,

Take it from someone who is now having to deal with said debt (although thankfully in forbearance now, because I can't afford payments on a resident salary) - you want to minimize it at all costs.

There are only 28 vet schools in the US, and the difference between, say, #5 and #15 is minimal at best. People put far too much emphasis on rankings and "prestige". I went to a "low ranked" school, yet was accepted into one of the highest ranked pathology programs in the nation (with the school itself way up in the top 10 for years). Seriously...the ranking means a lot less than you think.

How hard you work and what you do with your degree matters more. I went to my IS school, and having extra $ available to travel and do externships, etc. over summers and breaks was extremely helpful and eye-opening.

 

[sidvicious]

Hi there,

I agree with most of the posts about tuition. I am an undergrad at Cornell now so a bit of info about the location for you (if it helps!!!) Ithaca is nice, very livable, green, and friendly, but small. Outside of Ithaca, you are in the dead middle of upstate New York, surrounded by tiny little 'villages' and farmland. It is sunny 1 out of 10 days and typically cold. The vet school facilities are really nice though, and summer up here is glorious, especially if you like hiking and being outdoors. I like Cornell, and this is just my viewpoint, but I think its fairly accurate.

I got waitlisted at CSU and accepted at Cornell (I'm a forever OOS New Jersey-ian) and would have preferred to have a 'change in scenery'. But all in all, a great vet school is a great vet school, and its easy to romanticize about ones you've never been to. So I think you'll have an equally amazing experience at CSU (which is an incredible school so congrats on your acceptance!!!!), and have the benefit of not selling organs and plasma to pay off loans. Trust me, OOS tuition is a true terror when its your only option.

I hope this helped! If you have questions about Cornell feel free to ask 😀
And congrats again!

 

[orcagirl]

Hi there,

I agree with most of the posts about tuition. I am an undergrad at Cornell now so a bit of info about the location for you (if it helps!!!) Ithaca is nice, very livable, green, and friendly, but small. Outside of Ithaca, you are in the dead middle of upstate New York, surrounded by tiny little 'villages' and farmland. It is sunny 1 out of 10 days and typically cold. The vet school facilities are really nice though, and summer up here is glorious, especially if you like hiking and being outdoors. I like Cornell, and this is just my viewpoint, but I think its fairly accurate.

I got waitlisted at CSU and accepted at Cornell (I'm a forever OOS New Jersey-ian) and would have preferred to have a 'change in scenery'. But all in all, a great vet school is a great vet school, and its easy to romanticize about ones you've never been to. So I think you'll have an equally amazing experience at CSU (which is an incredible school so congrats on your acceptance!!!!), and have the benefit of not selling organs and plasma to pay off loans. Trust me, OOS tuition is a true terror when its your only option.

I hope this helped! If you have questions about Cornell feel free to ask 😀
And congrats again!

Personally that's enough to make me say no. I come from sunny AZ and NC only has sun about 60-70% of the time. It actually wears on me quite a bit. I miss the daily sunshine and warmer temperatures.

 

[Bill59]

would it be wise to attend Cornell even though it would cost me about 100k more in tuition and fees?

hell no

 

[EngrSC]

hell no

👍👍

 

[that redhead]

Go wherever is cheapest- the education will be largely the same and your future self will thank you for less debt. I know this seems like a short, thoughless reply but I promise you, it is not. As someone who didn't have the chance to go IS and looking at >200k of debt when I'm done, please go IS (or NCSU, if cheaper than CSU).

 

[hygebeorht]

Thanks for the advice, guys. It's pretty solid.

There's a few other things that I left out...I am already a student at CSU and have been there for 2 years. I don't much like Fort Collins, and I really really do not enjoy the prospect of being at CSU and living in Fort Collins for another four years. I didn't even apply there for my undergrad, because I hate Fort Collins, but it made the most sense to go to a great vet school to get my pre-vet prereqs taken care of.

If I am only accepted to CSU and Cornell, then it'll still be a tough choice, since all I've been trying to do for the last four years is get the hell out of Colorado. Additionally, I don't think I was clear enough when I said I'd like to return to CO. What I meant was perhaps 10 or 20 years down the road, not as soon as I get my DVM.

Another thing to consider is making more contacts at other schools, right? I've been working with vets and taking courses from vets up at CSU for a while now, and I feel like I'd like to make connections outside of CO as well.

Once I hear back from my other schools (NCSU, Wisconsin, Missouri, Ohio) I'll have more to work from. My top three choices are NCSU, Cornell, and CSU, but I haven't heard from NCSU yet. Would anyone recommend choosing CSU over NCSU? NCSU would actually be the cheaper option.

I promise I'm not just trying to get you to give me permission to blow megabuxx at Cornell just because I'm a sucker for prestige. Keep the great thoughts comin'!

 

[Kpowell14]

Articles on student debt..

http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=17347

http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/Veterinary+business/Bound-by-debt-Veterinarians-struggle-with-student-/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/785830


Prestige will not be paying your student loans off once you graduate. Period. I know you said in your original post that you applied to a couple places bc of your Ego... Well you got in, that's great, give your ego a pat on the back. But again, your ego will not be making the loan payments either.

FWIW-I think if you want to get out of CO then do it. But go to the cheapest option you have once you hear from the other schools. NCSU and MIZZOU will be much cheaper options than Cornell. With the job market being the way it is for new grads and the avg starting salary not going up anytime soon it would be wise to keep your debt down as much as possible. If it was just a 10-20 thousand dollar difference I think you could justify the "prestige" but $100,000 more?? Heck no. That money could be used in so many ways and you would still have a DVM. In this economy it would be irresponsible to pick Cornell given that you have the opportunity to chose a school that will be almost half the cost.

 

[orcagirl]

Thanks for the advice, guys. It's pretty solid.

There's a few other things that I left out...I am already a grad student at CSU and have been there for 2 years. I don't much like Fort Collins, and I really really do not enjoy the prospect of being at CSU and living in Fort Collins for another four years. I didn't even apply there for my undergrad, because I hate Fort Collins, but it made the most sense to go to a great vet school to get my pre-vet prereqs taken care of.

If I am only accepted to CSU and Cornell, then it'll still be a tough choice, since all I've been trying to do for the last four years is get the hell out of Colorado. Additionally, I don't think I was clear enough when I said I'd like to return to CO. What I meant was perhaps 10 or 20 years down the road, not as soon as I get my DVM.

Another thing to consider is making more contacts at other schools, right? I've been working with vets and taking courses from vets up at CSU for a while now, and I feel like I'd like to make connections outside of CO as well.

Once I hear back from my other schools (NCSU, Wisconsin, Missouri, Ohio) I'll have more to work from. My top three choices are NCSU, Cornell, and CSU, but I haven't heard from NCSU yet. Would anyone recommend choosing CSU over NCSU? NCSU would actually be the cheaper option.

I promise I'm not just trying to get you to give me permission to blow megabuxx at Cornell just because I'm a sucker for prestige. Keep the great thoughts comin'!

I chose the opposite. I suppose you would have to look at the cost of packing up and moving across the country as well. It's not cheap, but in the long run it can be worth it. I found that the students at NCSU matched what I was looking for (super support, nice, and just overall really friendly). The whole second year class made me feel like I fit in when I visited. If you get in, it's at least worth a visit. I'd say both programs are great. Choosing one of the other might then depend on what you want to do with your degree (LA, SA, lab, FA, zoo med, etc.)

As mentioned above, there are cheaper options that Cornell. Even Wisconsin isn't bad as far as out of state tuition goes (well it wasn't last year. I haven't checked recently).

 

[pumpkinsmom]

Go to one of the cheaper options! An extra +80k will take SO long to pay off after you graduate, especially with all of the interest you will rack up! Take it from someone who already has student loan debt has been working on paying it off for 3 years so far, you'll want as little as possible. It makes a huge difference in lifestyle.

What also swings my opinion is that I have spoken to a few vets at highly respected specialty hospitals and so far they have all said specifically that the vet school an internship/residency applicant went to (within the U.S.) does NOT factor into their decision to hire someone or not. Yes, certain vets will have a preference because of the vet school they once attended, but overall it does not seem to matter. All vet schools have their own networks and their own alumni.

I agree that where you want to get hired right after graduation should play a role in your decision, just because the networks will tend to be close by.

 

[hygebeorht]

Well, I visited Ithaca. I wish I could say it made my decision easier, but it really didn't.

I think I would really get a lot out of how they teach at Cornell. I wasn't overwhelmed by the facilities, but they seemed adequate. There's also the DVM/PhD option to consider, which I may apply for IF I decide to attend Cornell. In addition to setting me up for good employment, I would have virtually no debt.

I don't really have debt from undergrad, thanks to working and a TON of scholarship money. I also have a partner who will be supporting our costs of living wherever we go, so that should help keep debt down as well.

Ithaca is beautiful, and as some of you mentioned, small and rather isolated. The weather while I was there seemed like typical Ithaca winter weather, with temperatures in the aughts and teens and snow.

I'll be getting a financial aid package before I make my choice from all the schools I'm considering. I was admitted to Ohio as well, and it wound up being a bit more of a contender than I was anticipating. I do like the idea of living in a more urban area and the resources of such a large school and the caseload are impressive.

I really wish I could talk to some Cornell DVM graduates, some fresh out, and some who are 10 and 20 years out.

Any Cornellians who have words of wisdom? Or people who went to top 5 ranked schools and now have insane debt?

Man, this is mad tough. I am starting to have dreams (nightmares?) about this decision.

But hot damn I am glad to be going to vet school, either way!

 

[Virginger]

Personally, I don't give a hoot about a school's ranking. The best human-surgeon and the best human-oncologist I know went to middle-tier medical schools. If they ever had patients that were skeptical because of the name of the school on the placard on their office walls, those doctors were obviously good enough to change their patients' minds.

If prestige is that important to someone, fine, spend the money. I just think it's silly.
In my opinion, the best doctor is one who can prove their worth through their own work.

👍👍👍👍

...and i agree with a lot of the other posters too. its about who you are in practice... which I think will be proven by one's ethics, one's ability to sustain one's self by earning the income to pay off the educational loans, and one's ability to get hired or one's ability to run their own business. Where you go does not make you a phenomenal professional alone. I am sure you will make the best decision for yourself by going to the school that you like the most, knowing its strengths and shortcomings. Good luck! 🙂

 

[AnnabelLee]

Well, I visited Ithaca. I wish I could say it made my decision easier, but it really didn't.

I think I would really get a lot out of how they teach at Cornell. I wasn't overwhelmed by the facilities, but they seemed adequate. There's also the DVM/PhD option to consider, which I may apply for IF I decide to attend Cornell. In addition to setting me up for good employment, I would have virtually no debt.

I don't really have debt from undergrad, thanks to working and a TON of scholarship money. I also have a partner who will be supporting our costs of living wherever we go, so that should help keep debt down as well.

Ithaca is beautiful, and as some of you mentioned, small and rather isolated. The weather while I was there seemed like typical Ithaca winter weather, with temperatures in the aughts and teens and snow.

I'll be getting a financial aid package before I make my choice from all the schools I'm considering. I was admitted to Ohio as well, and it wound up being a bit more of a contender than I was anticipating. I do like the idea of living in a more urban area and the resources of such a large school and the caseload are impressive.

I really wish I could talk to some Cornell DVM graduates, some fresh out, and some who are 10 and 20 years out.

Any Cornellians who have words of wisdom? Or people who went to top 5 ranked schools and now have insane debt?

Man, this is mad tough. I am starting to have dreams (nightmares?) about this decision.

But hot damn I am glad to be going to vet school, either way!

The vet who owns the hospital I have the most experience at went to Cornell. I think in the 70's? There was also another vet at the hospital who graduated from Cornell <10 years ago. They are both great veterinarians and both really loved Cornell. Cornell was my first choice, but I was unfortunately rejected. I'm from NJ (and thus OOS everywhere), so I didn't think the Cornell cost was outrageous.

I would go with your gut!

I do agree that minimizing debt is a good thing! If you really hate Colorado, I would maybe consider leaving. But if you think you can spend 4 more years in Fort Collins, Colorado also is a great school and you could move after graduating and have much less debt since you are IS...

 

[pooter]

No, you won't get "amazing advantages" from going to the #1 vet school rather than the #3 vet school. If you want to give up your in-state tuition for a school that you like better, then more power to you--I did, and I very frequently don't regret it--but "reputation" isn't going to make the decision easy for you. Odds are, you will not make an extra 80K over your career simply because you went to Cornell. On the other hand, you have to graduate with some semblance of your soul intact if you want to make any money at all, and 80K might not be too high a price to pay for that. Just be clear about why you're making the decision; "reputation" is a nice justification that you can bring out when you have to explain your decision to friends and family, but anyone in the field knows better. It's not about rank; it's about fit and you deciding what monetary value you place on fit.

tl;dr: at best, 80K is buying you four years of being somewhat happier than you might be in Colorado.

p.s.: Wow, that came out grumpier than I intended it to. Sorry, SDN, studying cardio makes me craaaazy!

 

[turnbackhelly]

Any Cornellians who have words of wisdom? Or people who went to top 5 ranked schools and now have insane debt?

It has been a loooooong loooooong time since I've posted here on SDN, but I'm a third year at Cornell right now. What I have to say may either help you or make things more confusing, but here goes.

I am IS at Cornell but wanted more than ANYTHING to go to Penn - I had already been a grad student there, living in the Philly area (which I adore) for 3 years when I applied, and basically was just comfortable there and didn't want to leave my friends, awesome apartment, flexible well-paying job, etc. The catch was that I had (and still have) an INSANE, sickening amount of debt from both undergrad and previous grad school. I chose Cornell because it was my IS (cheapest option) and for no other reason. I cried - a lot (I know how ridiculous that sounds). When I visited Cornell I didn't hate it, but I wasn't thrilled either. I was dreading the PBL style of teaching (and ended up not liking it so much, but I survived and did fine). I dragged my feet all the way to Ithaca. I spent my first semester wishing I had gone to Penn.

3 years later, I could not be happier. I ended up absolutely loving Cornell before long, and the more time I spend away from here on externships at other places, the more I appreciate Cornell and everything it has to offer. Now that I have some distance, I realize that there are a lot of things about Penn that I probably would have hated, and that I had wanted to go there so badly for all the wrong reasons. The most important thing (for me)? I still have a ton of debt, but I have SO much less than I would if I had gone to Penn - for that I will certainly thank myself in the not so distant future. There are things about Cornell that I'm not crazy about (as there will be anywhere you go), but overall I am so, so happy here.

My point here is not to make you want to go to Cornell even more by telling you how much I love it (and I do), but I guess my point is that you never know how your feelings might change. You could come to Cornell and end up hating it, or you could go to CSU and end up loving it. Wherever you go, you will make the experience for yourself. I don't think Cornell's name alone will give you any advantages in school or after, especially over CSU which is also an amazing school. When I go out on externships, no one seems all that enthused by the fact that I'm coming from Cornell (as they shouldn't be) compared to the other extern standing next to me who is from another school. Cornell is a great school and I love it, but I will be the first to say that its reputation is definitely artificially inflated.

On the flip side... when I was making my decision, I said to myself "If I didn't already have so much debt, I would let myself go wherever I want" - and I would have, but that was not the case for me. You say you have little to no pre-existing debt, so that makes it harder for me to tell you "Go to CSU without looking back" and probably easier for you to justify the extra debt - and I totally get it. The difference between $100K and $180K is not trivial, but it's a little easier to swallow when your debt load is not approaching the 300Ks. It sounds cheesy and contrived, but I think in the end you just have to go with your gut.

Off the top of my head, a few things I wish I had considered more thoroughly when choosing a school (and if I had focused ONLY on these things, I probably would have chosen Cornell regardless of my debt):
- availability, enthusiasm for teaching, and support of students from faculty
- vet student quality of life - everyone everywhere works really hard, but deep down are people generally happy to be there despite it?
- opportunities for regular/consistent hands-on clinical experience early in the DVM training in the curriculum, extracurricularly, and opportunities for paid jobs in the teaching hospital as a 1st & 2nd year
- attention to training in "soft skills," ie client communication, ethics, professional development

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions or want to talk some more, and I'll give you my e-mail address (since clearly I don't frequent SDN too often 😳)

 

[CrazyCatLady77]

My point here is not to make you want to go to Cornell even more by telling you how much I love it (and I do), but I guess my point is that you never know how your feelings might change. You could come to Cornell and end up hating it, or you could go to CSU and end up loving it. Wherever you go, you will make the experience for yourself. I don't think Cornell's name alone will give you any advantages in school or after, especially over CSU which is also an amazing school. When I go out on externships, no one seems all that enthused by the fact that I'm coming from Cornell (as they shouldn't be) compared to the other extern standing next to me who is from another school. Cornell is a great school and I love it, but I will be the first to say that its reputation is definitely artificially inflated.


Off the top of my head, a few things I wish I had considered more thoroughly when choosing a school (and if I had focused ONLY on these things, I probably would have chosen Cornell regardless of my debt):
- availability, enthusiasm for teaching, and support of students from faculty
- vet student quality of life - everyone everywhere works really hard, but deep down are people generally happy to be there despite it?
- opportunities for regular/consistent hands-on clinical experience early in the DVM training in the curriculum, extracurricularly, and opportunities for paid jobs in the teaching hospital as a 1st & 2nd year
- attention to training in "soft skills," ie client communication, ethics, professional development

Thanks for this post!!! 👍👍

I'm wondering how to asses some of the considerations you mention (as they've crossed my mind too)..

For example, how do you assess the availability, enthusiasm and support from the faculty without going through the program?

Also, most of the students I've spoken with seem very happy to be at their current schools... How would you determine otherwise? You suggest that if you had considered this more thoroughly, you probably would have chosen Cornell despite financial considerations... Though it's clear that Cornell students seem very thrilled to be at Cornell, the students at Penn seemed equally as happy to there. I'm just wondering how else to gauge this?

Thanks!!

 

[turnbackhelly]

I'm wondering how to asses some of the considerations you mention (as they've crossed my mind too)..

For example, how do you assess the availability, enthusiasm and support from the faculty without going through the program?

Also, most of the students I've spoken with seem very happy to be at their current schools... How would you determine otherwise? You suggest that if you had considered this more thoroughly, you probably would have chosen Cornell despite financial considerations... Though it's clear that Cornell students seem very thrilled to be at Cornell, the students at Penn seemed equally as happy to there. I'm just wondering how else to gauge this?

I think the best way to go about assessing all of these things is to talk to as many students as possible, and a wide variety of students (IS & OSS, traditional and non-traditional, underclassmen and upperclassmen, etc). I know you guys probably have easiest access to first and second year students, as they tend to make up the majority of students involved in pre-vet/interview/accepted students events (and here on SDN!), but see if you can talk to some upperclassmen and recent graduates (ask admissions offices if they can put you in touch). You may find that upperclassmen, being farther along in the program, are either more jaded OR even more in love with their program compared to a) underclassmen at the same school, and b) their own feelings when they were underclassmen. Obviously there will be a mix of opinions everywhere, but it's at least a good start. Also, no matter who you talk to, I think one of the most useful things you can ask is what their least favorite thing(s) is/are about their school. Yes, everyone - even the happiest and most satisfied students - has things they don't like about their school, but you may or may not care about those same things. Example: Student A from School X's biggest complaint about their program is they get no hands on experience until clinics. That might be something that doesn't bother you, but it also might be something that is a huge deal breaker for you. Student B from School Y's biggest complaint might be that their curriculum is heavily weighted toward problem-based group learning instead of all lectures, but that might be what actually attracts you to the same school. Asking several students about their Top 2-3 Big Complaints can help you gauge whether or not those same issues would be a make-or-break for you personally. Since starting vet school I have met and talked to lots of students from many different schools, and my impression overall (based on my admittedly small sample) is that students seem generally happier at some schools versus others. You may find the same with the more students you survey.

As for issues related to faculty, again, talk to students but make sure to ask specific questions. There will always be exceptions everywhere, but in general, are most of their professors attentive to the students' needs? Tangibly, this could mean: responding to students' e-mails promptly, going out of their way to make themselves available to meet one on one about classroom material or general career advice/concerns if needed, general demeanor while lecturing, etc. Do professors actively take an interest in getting to know students professionally AND personally? Tangibly, this could mean: knowing students' names (you may ask students: Do some/most of your professors know you at least by name if not better?); attending evening/weekend student events such as skit nights, other performances, fundraisers, etc; and making an effort to get to know students outside of the classroom (being involved with teaching small groups in extracurricular wet labs, we have professors who invite students to their houses for dinner and post their workout schedules and invite any student interested in joining them on a run). This may all sound trivial, and you may think it might have no bearing on your education or career, until you suddenly need a letter of recommendation during your second year for a scholarship or summer internship and you realize that there are no faculty members who really know you because you haven't yet be on clinics. Anyway, that's a really longwinded way of saying that I think you can definitely get a lot of information about the faculty by asking specific questions about the faculty of as many students as you can get your hands on.

Does that help at all?

 

[hygebeorht]

That's great advice, turnbackhelly. I tracked down a student who is a few years out from his graduation at Cornell, and our conversation was very illuminating.

 

[hygebeorht]

I also just wanted to update this thread a little since a few things have happened since I started it. I was also accepted at Ohio, Missouri, and NCSU. NCSU would be the cheapest option for me, it would get me out of Colorado, and its program has a great reputation as well, so while I am still undecided, having the option of NCSU is helping me to feel less panicked. I don't have to stay in Colorado to save money if I don't want to - although with the cost of moving and holiday travel, the cost difference may well end up the same.

I have yet to visit Raleigh, and I'm trying to finish my taxes this weekend (curse the slow banks who don't send out tax paperwork until the last second) so I can get an idea of what, if any, financial aid I can expect from these schools. I anticipate that whatever aid I get, it will probably not make a significant difference cost-wise between the programs.

My program's advisor told me to make a chart of all the factors I am considering when making the decision, then rank the factors based on their importance to me, and give the school a score (1-5? 1-10?) for each factor. I think that may be a good idea to play with today. Maybe I'll make a spreadsheet...I do love a good spreadsheet.

 

[BulldogMS]

NCSU is one of the 28, you seem to like it and it's the cheapest for you? There would be no question in my mind then unless you had something particularly disparaging against the program. For me, I was discouraged from attending my IS through apathetic remarks made by a recent grad and 3 3rd years. My interview confirmed these suspicions that my IS wasn't what I wanted in a program, but was at my OOS, so I chose OOS.

 

[Kpowell14]

NCSU is one of the 28, you seem to like it and it's the cheapest for you? There would be no question in my mind then unless you had something particularly disparaging against the program. For me, I was discouraged from attending my IS through apathetic remarks made by a recent grad and 3 3rd years. My interview confirmed these suspicions that my IS wasn't what I wanted in a program, but was at my OOS, so I chose OOS.

👍 👍 this is why I'm headed to an OOS school as well.

 

[BulldogMS]

YAY for OOS! It is what it is. IS isn't a good fit for everyone. There are surprising ways to save outside tuition. For housing and general living expenses, MSU is bargain basement compared to the relatively high cost of my IS. Groceries, utilities, gas, restaurants, taxes, are all a little cheaper than in my IS. It adds up! Most of all, I think I'm much happier than i would have been at my IS.

Traveling costs are sometimes negoitable. Find out when you're on break and make flight reservations before everyone else in your area does.

 

[hygebeorht]

YAY for OOS! It is what it is. IS isn't a good fit for everyone. There are surprising ways to save outside tuition. For housing and general living expenses, MSU is bargain basement compared to the relatively high cost of my IS. Groceries, utilities, gas, restaurants, taxes, are all a little cheaper than in my IS. It adds up! Most of all, I think I'm much happier than i would have been at my IS.

Traveling costs are sometimes negoitable. Find out when you're on break and make flight reservations before everyone else in your area does.

I do have access to buddy passes through a family member, so travel wouldn't be so bad from NCSU or Ohio. I can drive to CO from Missouri (ugh Kansas, but still). I haven't really looked at Wisconsin, since I haven't heard back from them yet. Obviously CSU is my IS. But the nearest I can get to Cornell and get a buddy pass is NYC or PA, and that's not even close.

 

[BulldogMS]

You seem to be responding to your doubts, hygebeorht, with more pros than cons to attend NCSU. Best price, easy to get to, great program, mildish weather. Or, Mizzou. Madison is a college town in the middle of nowhere. It's near Chicago by flight standards, but still too far from Chicago as a hub. Add in a dose of a winter blizzard and you might as well go to Cornell. The travel would be just as taxing.

 

[Emiloo4]

Not sure if you're aware, but NCSU allows you to become a resident really easily. Attending NCSU OOS and then getting IS the last three years was cheaper than my IS school for 4 years. Also... Beautiful weather at NCSU vs. being dumped, DUMPED with snow at Cornell... Just sayin 😀
I've lived both outside Raleigh, and 40 minutes from Cornell, and there is just no comparison in the weather.
I would recommend not worrying about their "reputations" as you keep mentioning bc their reputations change with each person you talk to. Look at the programs, curriculum, case loads, and area of living to make your decision. "Reputation" doesn't matter much in vet med bc all the schools are top notch, and that reputation changes anywhere you go.

 

[Emiloo4]

And on the thoughts of traveling...
You're gonna have to travel either way. I'm not sure a few more hours is really gonna matter. I moved from Upstate NY to FL in less than two days. The annoying part is packing and unpacking, more than the travel between those is.

 

[bunnity]

Thanks for this post!!! 👍👍

I'm wondering how to asses some of the considerations you mention (as they've crossed my mind too)..

For example, how do you assess the availability, enthusiasm and support from the faculty without going through the program?

Also, most of the students I've spoken with seem very happy to be at their current schools... How would you determine otherwise? You suggest that if you had considered this more thoroughly, you probably would have chosen Cornell despite financial considerations... Though it's clear that Cornell students seem very thrilled to be at Cornell, the students at Penn seemed equally as happy to there. I'm just wondering how else to gauge this?

Thanks!!

The students doing the tours and interviews are most likely the outgoing, cheerful, overachieving folks around compared to the rest of the school (not meant in a bad way at all; I really like my classmates that did admissions stuff). So talk to other students if you possibly can... check out the "factors picking a school" thread or PM current students from this site. Most people have their school and class year listed by their name (mine is Penn 2014 and I gave a very long-winded opinion piece in the factors thread already 😛).

 

[turnbackhelly]

The students doing the tours and interviews are most likely the outgoing, cheerful, overachieving folks around compared to the rest of the school (not meant in a bad way at all; I really like my classmates that did admissions stuff). So talk to other students if you possibly can... check out the "factors picking a school" thread or PM current students from this site. Most people have their school and class year listed by their name (mine is Penn 2014 and I gave a very long-winded opinion piece in the factors thread already 😛).

bunnity makes an excellent point, and I think that was sort of what I was trying to get at (except I did a bad job of it). I actually stopped giving tours and doing other admissions stuff during my second year because I was way down on vet school (because of a bunch of personal stuff, nothing really about the school itself) and knew I would do a terrible job of selling it to other people. Students involved in admissions/prospective student stuff generally tend to be a pretty selective sample.

 

[StartingoverVet]

bunnity makes an excellent point, and I think that was sort of what I was trying to get at (except I did a bad job of it). I actually stopped giving tours and doing other admissions stuff during my second year because I was way down on vet school (because of a bunch of personal stuff, nothing really about the school itself) and knew I would do a terrible job of selling it to other people. Students involved in admissions/prospective student stuff generally tend to be a pretty selective sample.

I wanted to be involved, but I decided I was too brutally honest.

 

[Emiloo4]

I just did interview tours and Q&A sessions for UF this past week and I had a really hard time being cheery and encouraging after the week we all just had. Most people failed multiple classes the day before we were supposed to do interviews. It was hard hard hard to be excited for the interviewees lol. I had several people give me dirty looks when I have honest answers. But I wish I had someone lay it to me honestly when I was deciding on veterinary school.
I wasn't terrible or trash talking, but I answered questions when they were asked with a flowery smile and optimism, when I really wanted to tell them all to RUN the other way 😀

 

[hygebeorht]

After a ton of thought, and making a little spreadsheet type thing where I ranked and weighted the criteria for the six schools I'm choosing between, I think I've finally come to the conclusion that no, Cornell isn't worth the OOS cost for me. The debt burden of vet school will be onerous enough as it is even if I attend the cheapest school I got into (which is looking very likely at this point).

Interestingly enough, even if Cornell were affordable, it turns out that I really don't seem to want to go there 🙂 On my little spreadsheet, which evaluated schools for cost, climate, town, resources, facilities, availability of work for my SO, prestige, difficulty of travel, teaching style, and more, Cornell came in dead last with a score of about 50. My two or three major contender schools were all within 10-20 points of 100. So I think not attending Cornell is probably a good decision.

I feel badly because I already had my dad fill out his financial stuff for the college board profile thing you have to do to get a fin. aid offer, and it was a pain in his neck. At this point, I'm not sure I want to waste peoples' time and $25 of my money on getting an aid offer, because it won't come close to bringing the COA down to IS levels, and even IS is more debt than I'd want to incur for Cornell. But I don't want to lie to my poor dad and tell him I got an offer that wasn't good enough either, when what really happened was I just didn't bother to submit his work.

Also, several friends really want me to go to Cornell, and I believe they'd think I was flip for declining without even an aid offer. I don't really feel beholden to them - I'll go where I need to go - but maybe I should just ask for an aid offer so they don't feel like I rejected Cornell without full consideration. It really would hurt their feelings. None of my friends were admitted this year, and I don't want them to feel I am taking the privilege of a decision lightly.

Then again, I'm also thinking of people on the waitlist. But whoever would get my slot would get it eventually, whether it's next week or a little longer than that.

At any rate, I'm not going to do anything about it until later in the weekend, since my days are really packed until then and I won't really be home.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Bismarck]

How much of a financial aid incentive (gift aid) would you need to narrow the gap? $10,000? $15,000? It's certainly possible (not a guarantee though) to get that much support your first year and pick up a job on the side for some spending money too. Anything beyond that might be a stretch. If you think your educational needs might be better met elsewhere, it's a nice gesture to give your decision now so Cornell can focus on consolidating their class but if you need until April to make the best decision, you should not hesitate to do so. I decided in March of last year, but I was pretty adamant about Cornell by late January anyway.

 

[hygebeorht]

Good thought Bismarck. I forget, are you IS or OOS for Cornell?

Honestly, I'm not sure how much gift aid it would take. If I could get enough to bring my bill down close to an NY resident, I might consider.

 

[Bismarck]

I am OOS (CT; ~44k for tuition) and got two scholarships this year (PM me if you want the amount). Broken down, one was from the estate of a wealthy CT woman to honor her veterinarian (a Cornellian) and the other was a merit-based (academic) scholarship. There are quite a few scholarships designed to support people from varying geographic interests, ethnic backgrounds, interests in vet med etc that you should be eligible for something. Keep in mind that many previous classes (going back 70 or more years) have established/contributed legacy scholarships to honor deceased classmates where the only requirement seems to be financial need. That said, pure merit scholarships (GPA) seem to be relatively uncommon; GPA is usually lumped in as a consideration among other criteria for awards.

Feel free to peruse this(link) page to see what's out there. It certainly made my decision to turn down NC State a bit more bearable knowing I had a bit more "help" at Cornell to defray the cost.

 

[goldengirl90]

For me I am glad I chose my IS. It is by far cheaper than going OOS, and it opened up a scholarship for me which has reduced my school cost more than I could have ever dreamed.

Good luck in your decision and hopefully the information session can help you out

bbeventer -- I just stumbled across this post of yours... could you pleeease share with me what that scholarship is?? Is it the food-animal loan repayment thing or something else? As an Illinois resident looking at U of I for vet school, I'm very curious what opportunities there are for scholarships, but haven't seen too many other than the FA incentive. Thanks in advance for any info! 🙂

 

[bwestner]

Every DVM I have known has stated very bluntly to go to the cheapest school available. The ones who most strongly suggest this are those who chose the more expensive option and are still paying back their loans 15 years later. I just declined my acceptance at Cornell in order to attend my IS school, Illinois. I am 100% sure I made the right choice for my future.

 

[felinelvr44]

I don't see the harm in waiting to find out what your financial aid package would be at Cornell. The financial aid office has said repeatedly that as long as they have all your info in a timely fashion, they would be apply to give you your "package" (including any gift aid) before April 15th.

 

[myotherself]

hygebeorht, would you mind PM-ing me your spreadsheet? I'd be very curious as to how you allotted points for the various aspects of each school, though understandably some of your categories may not be applicable to myself, but I think that could be a better starting point for me than these Pro/Con lists I keep making.

 

[LetItSnow]

I think the better question is: Is any school's OOS tuition worth the cost?

(There are some schools where it is. For instance, if I had the luxury of being able to move, Wisconsin's OOS tuition would be cheaper than my MN IS tuition.)

Personally, I think Wisconsin is in a pretty sweet spot as far as branding and cost. They've got a great reputation and their cost is better under control than many (most?) schools.

But I think it's more the exception than the rule to find any school where the OOS cost is worth paying (not accounting for offsetting factors like grants, gifts, etc.).