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Financially. No

Especially if you are expecting to take out full loans.
With interest and tuition increase, 400k becomes about ~ 475k
 
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JakeSill

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I think it really depends on the value you see in a dental degree. What do YOU want to do with it? What long-term vision do YOU have?
I want to be a general dentist with multiple offices.
 
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JakeSill

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Are you carrying in undergrad debt? Do you hope to specialize if you had the opportunity to do so? Numbers add up.
I have about 24k undergrad debt. I don't want to specialize because I want to open multiple offices. What do you mean numbers add up?
 
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What GPA and DAT do you need for HPSP and how long do you have to serve before you get out? Will they send me to the middle east?
Recruiters like to quote 3.5/18

1 year scholarship = 1 year service

It's a possibility

I have about 24k undergrad debt. I don't want to specialize because I want to open multiple offices. What do you mean numbers add up?
400 + 24 = 424
 

Cold Front

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I have about 24k undergrad debt. I don't want to specialize because I want to open multiple offices. What do you mean numbers add up?
Numbers add up... $24k + dental school debt (if $400k) + compounding interest = $500K+ in debt. Those monthly payments could be 40% of your income your first year or 2 of practice.
 
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Numbers add up... $24k + dental school debt (if $400k) + compounding interest = $500K+ in debt. Those monthly payments could be 40% of your income your first year or 2 of practice.
At 140k salary in a state with state income tax, your monthly payment can be as high as 70% of your take home on a 10 year plan lol (5.5k monthly with 94k take home). Kiss goodbye to contributing to any retirement fund
 
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Big Time Hoosier

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The HPSP has become fairly competitive as the chance of deployment has gone down. Is there a chance you may be stationed somewhere you don't want to be? Absolutely. I will almost certainly not be deployed during my payback, but I'm also not living in what anyone would consider a destination hot spot. Hot? Yes. Do I love having no student loans to pay back? Absolutely. Is there stuff that drives me nuts working for the government? Every freaking day. But, I'll be a free man in 2.5 years and if/when I go back to specialize, I've got the GI Bill to pay for that. From the perspective of a future business owner, I do like that my competition is being neutered by their student loans. Nothing personal, just business.

Big Hoss

Edit: I should add that military life isn't that bad. My schedule is pretty relaxed compared to private practice. I've done things I'd never have done outside of the military. And most importantly, I've met some great people. No regrets here taking the HPSP.
 
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distressstudent

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The HPSP has become fairly competitive as the chance of deployment has gone down. Is there a chance you may be stationed somewhere you don't want to be? Absolutely. I will almost certainly not be deployed during my payback, but I'm also not living in what anyone would consider a destination hot spot. Hot? Yes. Do I love having no student loans to pay back? Absolutely. Is there stuff that drives me nuts working for the government? Every freaking day. But, I'll be a free man in 2.5 years and if/when I go back to specialize, I've got the GI Bill to pay for that. From the perspective of a future business owner, I do like that my competition is being neutered by their student loans. Nothing personal, just business.

Big Hoss
The way I see is that new grads with massive loans are fueling corporate dentistry. That's a much bigger threat to folks trying to build a private practice
 

Incis0r

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I want to be a general dentist with multiple offices.
Honestly, don't let debt hold you back. Do your research and make a plan on how you want to get to multiple practices. Talk to people who have done it successfully. There are a few members here who are very helpful and have done this exact thing. Get inspired, and then go out there and build your dream and fulfill your vision.

There is so much potential in the field for those willing to innovate and work hard. Seize it.
 
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Cold Front

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At 140k salary in a state with state income tax, your monthly payment can be as high as 70% of your take home on a 10 year plan lol (5.5k monthly with 94k take home). Kiss goodbye to contributing to any retirement fund
Yes I know, this is tip of the iceberg for dental student loans.
 

frozenicecreamDMD

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OP,

if you are talking about the private schools, most private school's cost of attendance on the low end is 450-460k already. which means at the end of 4 year, accrued interest + principal will be near 500k.

for expensive school like USC or NYU, students will likely own upward of 550k after all is said and done.
 

Cold Front

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OP,

if you are talking about the private schools, most private school's cost of attendance on the low end is 450-460k already. which means at the end of 4 year, accrued interest + principal will be near 500k.

for expensive school like USC or NYU, students will likely own upward of 550k after all is said and done.
That information is for 2016/2017 numbers... Add another 3-5% for next year's entering class, that's additional $15-25k increase for the 4 years before interest. USC, NYU, BU, Penn, Midwestern, Tufts, etc ... are all hovering around $500k number after interest for the cost of a degree.

The fastest growing segment of students in debt are probably those who are graduating with $500-600k loans, while those with under $200-250k loans are shrinking due to tuition increases.

I have an orthodontist friend who graduated from a Boston school, then finished his residency in a Colorado school... His total debt is $640k.
 

Incis0r

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What GPA and DAT do you need for HPSP and how long do you have to serve before you get out? Will they send me to the middle east?
Air Force average in 2013 was a 3.93 GPA and 23 DAT.
It is very competitive.

Navy and Army have more scholarships = less competitive, but you still need to bring the grades and GPA. The Army, historically considered the least competitive, rejected people with 3.7s and 22s on their DAT last year.

Of course you could deploy to the Middle East. The military is paying for your education so that you can serve our troops, and that means you go wherever your troops are, in whatever conditions they are living in, with whatever supplies you have access to, and you serve them to the best of your ability using the education that the military paid for.

I would argue that while the benefits/scholarship is nice, the actual reward of receiving an HPSP is getting to serve those who serve our country, ESPECIALLY in a war zone. It's not a burden to deploy/serve....it's a privilege.
 

1070752

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That information is for 2016/2017 numbers... Add another 3-5% for next year's entering class, that's additional $15-25k increase for the 4 years before interest. USC, NYU, BU, Penn, Midwestern, Tufts, etc ... are all hovering around $500k number after interest for the cost of a degree.

The fastest growing segment of students in debt are probably those who are graduating with $500-600k loans, while those with under $200-250k loans are shrinking due to tuition increases.

I have an orthodontist friend who graduated from a Boston school, then finished his residency in a Colorado school... His total debt is $640k.
NYU is ~$100k/yr max, how are you getting that much? Are you factoring in what they consider as "living expenses", because you can definitely do MUCH better then that.

Secondly, for us Canadians, interest is ~2.5-3%, and doesn't start accumulating until 6 months after you get your degree ;) (Although our exchange rate is pretty ****ty atm).
 
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sarriball

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Threads like this remind me that I should be praying for admission into my state schools, lol... Especially since I'll have a little undergrad debt as well.

Since we are somewhat on the topic... Would you be at a disadvantage when it comes to specializing if you go to a state school (Temple, Pitt, etc.) vs a private (such as Penn, Columbia, etc)?
 

Cold Front

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NYU is ~$100k/yr max, how are you getting that much? Are you factoring in what they consider as "living expenses", because you can definitely do MUCH better then that.

Secondly, for us Canadians, interest is ~2.5-3%, and doesn't start accumulating until 6 months after you get your degree ;) (Although our exchange rate is pretty ****ty atm).
Total Cost of Attendance ranges from $120-125k a year, depending on the year. So total is $500k before interest.

http://dental.nyu.edu/academicprograms/dds-program/tuition.html

Yes. You can stay below that cost , but many students do not.
 
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JakeSill

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So the best thing would be to do an SMP and do well so I can get into a public school?
 
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NYU is ~$100k/yr max, how are you getting that much? Are you factoring in what they consider as "living expenses", because you can definitely do MUCH better then that.

Secondly, for us Canadians, interest is ~2.5-3%, and doesn't start accumulating until 6 months after you get your degree ;) (Although our exchange rate is pretty ****ty atm).
penny wise pound foolish
 
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Cold Front

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What I'm saying is living expenses are no where near $34k/yr. How do you think people making less than that in a year survive normally?
Trust me, a lot of students don't see it that way. I had many classmates in Boston who lived in $2k a month apartments the entire 4 years of school, that's about $25k a year. They were extroverts and were out every weekend (and most of the weekdays) kicking with other students from different Boston schools. They were hitting the local bars after the midterms and finals. The more social a city is, the more you need to flexible with your budget - incase you end up having those kind of friends, or even if your perspective of the city changes. So going to NYU is not just about the school, the city is great too and very much different than going to school anywhere else.

Personally, if NYU was my only choice, I would blow some money on the city too, than live to regret it.
 
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in my opinion, absolutely not
 

jyee19

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Going to BU now and did the estimated math for 5 and 20 year repayments with 6.7% interest (includes housing/supplies/fees):
5 years is $8,680/month, $520,823 total principle

20 years is $3,216/month
$772,020 total principle

Yayyyy HPSP




Army HPSP
 
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schmoob

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No.

Def education bubble. Income-based-repayment till you hit the expiration then pay off int accum. Welcome to America.
This is considering your income is not high. With the length of time it takes to get to the point that you hit the expiration, and the tax liability that comes with the forgiven amount you end up paying more than you borrowed anyway.
The federal student loan system is not set up the same way as mortgages. I do not foresee a bubble burst.
 

Cold Front

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The federal student loan system is not set up the same way as mortgages. I do not foresee a bubble burst.
There is a bubble.

There is a big difference between mortgages and student loans.

1. Mortgage loans can be defaulted and can ago away through bankruptcy or foreclosure after 7 years. Student loans will follow you to the grave. Even worse, if your parents were consigners, they will be on the hook if you pass away. There are many cases and stories of this throughout the country.

2. Mortgage loans default rates are much lower (under 10%), some 40% of student loans are not paid by borrowers. Hence, the burden these unpaid payments has on the economy - buying a home, a car, etc. You will be denied to join society financially and miss the opportunity to enter and stay in the middle class.

3. The 5-8 million people buy homes every year, while about 22 million students enter college a year. Mortgage borrowers don't get blank checks from lenders like students do from the government. You can't just buy a home if you are unemployed and with a bad credit, but you just need a pulse to get yourself into $100-200k debt in just undergraduate loans.

4. It is true that the people who default on their loans most are the ones with sub $30k loans, while those high income earners can pay their loans easier at a higher debt. However, being in debt at $500k+ in loans is becoming unsustainable for many new doctors. Many new dentists are on IBR, PAYE, etc... They would have defaulted on their loans if those repayment options didn't exist.

So yes, there is a bubble, and you will pay for it as a taxpayer once it bursts.
 

DSNCSUN

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That information is for 2016/2017 numbers... Add another 3-5% for next year's entering class, that's additional $15-25k increase for the 4 years before interest. USC, NYU, BU, Penn, Midwestern, Tufts, etc ... are all hovering around $500k number after interest for the cost of a degree.

The fastest growing segment of students in debt are probably those who are graduating with $500-600k loans, while those with under $200-250k loans are shrinking due to tuition increases.

I have an orthodontist friend who graduated from a Boston school, then finished his residency in a Colorado school... His total debt is $640k.
how do these people survive once they're in the 'real world'? half a million dollars that's ridiculous
 

Cold Front

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how do these people survive once they're in the 'real world'? half a million dollars that's ridiculous
And the consequence?

According to the ADA.. The "number of examined applicants" are down by about 7% or 4,300 applicants from 2013/14 to 2014/15. That's just in 1 year. The odds of getting into dental school now is the highest and easiest since the late 1990's. It's less that 2 applicants per 1 accepted student, and all this is happening during 9 schools being opened within just the last 10 years.

It looks like the interest in dental school has peaked and entered a decline phase.

 
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DSNCSUN

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And the consequence?

According to the ADA.. The "number of examined applicants" are down by about 7% or 4,300 applicants from 2013/14 to 2014/15. That's just in 1 year. The odds of getting into dental school now is the highest and easiest since the late 1990's. It's less that 2 applicants per 1 accepted student, and all this is happening during 9 schools being opened within just the last 10 years.

It looks like the interest in dental school has peaked and entered a decline phase.

So is med school worth it? Leave healthcare overall? Engineering? Business or health administration? No field is perfect, is dentistry descent? It's still competitive to get into dschool and DAT stats are goin up each cycle for some schools.
 

distressstudent

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So is med school worth it? Leave healthcare overall? Engineering? Business or health administration? No field is perfect, is dentistry descent? It's still competitive to get into dschool and DAT stats are goin up each cycle for some schools.
Yes. If all you care is about the bang for the buck and you're paying full tuition yourself, leave and never look back.

And the consequence?

According to the ADA.. The "number of examined applicants" are down by about 7% or 4,300 applicants from 2013/14 to 2014/15. That's just in 1 year. The odds of getting into dental school now is the highest and easiest since the late 1990's. It's less that 2 applicants per 1 accepted student, and all this is happening during 9 schools being opened within just the last 10 years.

It looks like the interest in dental school has peaked and entered a decline phase.
I think you might want to re-read that...
Number of application =/= Number of applicants
Number of applicants only dropped by 400. Average looks to be about five examined application per applicant. So that's already 2000 application dropped by default if you exclude 400 people.

I dont know how they categorize examined application though. A different source says it's about 9 application per applicant.
 
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Cold Front

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Yes. If all you care is about the bang for the buck and you're paying full tuition yourself, leave and never look back.



I think you might want to re-read that...
Number of application =/= Number of applicants
Number of applicants only dropped by 400. Average looks to be about five examined application per applicant. So that's already 2000 application dropped by default if you exclude 400 people.

I dont know how they categorize examined application though. A different source says it's about 9 application per applicant.
Nope. Totally different numbers. I was referring to total "examined applicants", which is different than the numbers you mentioned.

A better number to look is the "Average number of applicants per school", which went down from 1,025.4 to 958.8 for the same period. Which is 6.5% decline. It declined 4% in 2012/13 to 2013/14. So a total of 10% decline over 2 cycles.
 

distressstudent

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Nope. Totally different numbers. I was referring to total "examined applicants", which is different than the numbers you mentioned.

A better number to look is the "Average number of applicants per school", which went down from 1,025.4 to 958.8 for the same period. Which is 6.5% decline. It declined 4% in 2012/13 to 2013/14. So a total of 10% decline over 2 cycles.
So where are you getting the numbers for "examined applicants"?
I also only see "average number of application per school" not "average number of applicant per school"

People are sending out application to fewer schools. But the number of people who are interested in pursuing dentistry hasn't declined as much as you said it has. That's not at all reflective of the sentiment that people are turning away from dentistry in my opinion.


And if we're selective about our analysis, you can argue that the dentistry is getting easier to get in because from 2005 to 2015 number of applicants only increased by 9% while the number of seats increased by nearly 30%
To me, it certainly doesn't seem like students are anymore unwilling to pay for high tuition than in the past
 
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Cold Front

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So where are you getting the numbers for "examined applicants"?
I also only see "average number of application per school" not "average number of applicant per school"

People are sending out application to fewer schools. But the number of people who are interested in pursuing dentistry hasn't declined as much as you said it has. That's not at all reflective of the sentiment that people are turning away from dentistry in my opinion.


And if we're selective about our analysis, you can argue that the dentistry is getting easier to get in because from 2005 to 2015 number of applicants only increased by 9% while the number of seats increased by nearly 30%
To me, it certainly doesn't seem like students are anymore unwilling to pay for high tuition than in the past
I see the semantics disagreement.

Number of Examined Applications = Applications Examined by All Admission Committees. This is the number that went down about 7% or 4,300.

Another way to look at it, people are applying to fewer schools than they previously did.
 
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schmoob

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And the consequence?

According to the ADA.. The "number of examined applicants" are down by about 7% or 4,300 applicants from 2013/14 to 2014/15. That's just in 1 year. The odds of getting into dental school now is the highest and easiest since the late 1990's. It's less that 2 applicants per 1 accepted student, and all this is happening during 9 schools being opened within just the last 10 years.

It looks like the interest in dental school has peaked and entered a decline phase.

I see the semantics disagreement.

Number of Examined Applications = Applications Examined by All Admission Committees. This is the number that went down about 7% or 4,300.

Another way to look at it, people are applying to fewer schools than they previously did.
OK, you really need to look at your chart again.
Please explain how interest has "peaked?" Because there were 400 less applicants? That is not a trend. Not one bit. In fact, it's the first time the number of applicants went down in 4 years, by a negligible number. Also, that's not a 7% drop. That's about a 3.5% drop - negligible.
First year enrollment is at an all time high.
Also, no, people are not applying to less schools. The general trend shows that over the last 10 years, the number of applicants have been about the same, yet the amount of applications per school has shown a general increase over that time. In fact, that's with the addition of more schools. That means that people are actually applying to MORE schools. The next column over, ratio of examined applications to applicants illustrated that perfectly.
You also failed to mention the major anomaly in 2007, when there was about a 12 PERCENT increase in applications. That is the biggest spike in the chart.

So no, it's not all doom and gloom. Based on your chart, the interest in dentistry is doing just fine. If you don't believe me, I would recommend looking at the trend of GPA and DAT scores of enrollees.
 

Cold Front

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Based on your chart, the interest in dentistry is doing just fine. If you don't believe me, I would recommend looking at the trend of GPA and DAT scores of enrollees.
This is not my chart. It's a recent published ADA chart.

Schools are not having problems filling their seats, otherwise tuitions wouldn't have gone up as much as they did in recent years. The demand is still strong, so supply will go up by opening new schools or increasing tuition.

According to the ADA chart, Admission Committees are reviewing less applications per school, and a seen on the chart, the ratio of applicants to first year enrollment has dipped to less than 2 to 1 (1.97). Yes, the overall first year enrollment went up, which is due to new schools opening and/or certain schools increasing their class sizes. As a result, more class seats created a relative oversupply for the relatively strong demand, and the odds become slightly in favor for the applicant. You can say this is anomaly or an outlier, but the data speaks for itself.

More schools will open, like Kansas dental school and others who are currently in an exploratory stage. Some existing schools could and probably will increase their class sizes. Schools will continue to exploit the demand to strengthen their bottom line. The enrollment will continue to rise, as a result - the ratio of applicant to enrollment will continue to go down.

Also, the quality of a dental applicant (GPA, DAT, etc) is not a factor here. A local undergrad school in my city (which is the second largest undergrad school in the country) recently reported their incoming freshman class had the highest average SAT scores in the history of the school. Yet, the school has a relative demand that created more programs, class seats, and highest tuition in the history of the school for the same period.
 

Daurang

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Also, the quality of a dental applicant (GPA, DAT, etc) is not a factor here. A local undergrad school in my city (which is the second largest undergrad school in the country) recently reported their incoming freshman class had the highest average SAT scores in the history of the school. Yet, the school has a relative demand that created more programs, class seats, and highest tuition in the history of the school for the same period.
Statistic is a only as good as the garbage that is put into it. SAT scores have been trending down for a long time, so the college testing board have added ~150 points to all scores to bring up the scores. This is even with the use of calculator that previous generation couldn't use.

So much manipulation of SAT, GDP, unemployment number, etc. in today's world you must really dig deeper into the numbers. Average person simple read number and feel happy, which is the intention of pen pusher academics.
 

Cold Front

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Statistic is a only as good as the garbage that is put into it. SAT scores have been trending down for a long time, so the college testing board have added ~150 points to all scores to bring up the scores.
Yes, the record setting SAT scores trend is happening nationwide. I agree, most schools are always going to say this is "our best class ever" year after year. Some years it's the most "diverse" class ever, "biggest" class ever, "best SAT", etc.

Why? Because it could effect their US News and World Report rankings.., which many parents read and talk their friends and neighbors over with it. Exact same reason why many parents look at the "Best Paid Jobs" in America on Forbes magazine, and voila!... "Ortho/Oral Surg/Dentists" making it in the top 5 or 10 all the time. Which is another big reason why dental tuition is going up, because the publisher never talks about the cost of a diploma for those best paying dentist jobs. Imagine how that abated piece of information could change the interest in dental education for future applicants if it was revealed?

Like you said, you have to dig deeper.
 
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JakeSill

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I guess Pharmacy it is 75k in state tuition, 140k private for me.
 
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JakeSill

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There is a bubble.


You can't just buy a home if you are unemployed and with a bad credit, but you just need a pulse to get yourself into $100-200k debt in just undergraduate loans.
Really? Looking to do a post bacc(Not SMP). Is it easy to get loans?
 
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