Is EM residency pregnancy friendly?

[MedScat]

Female med student here trying to figure out what I want to do with my life, currently interested in EM. Having children soon is a priority for my husband and I so I'm looking for family friendly residencies in fields of medicine that I would enjoy. Thoughts/experiences?

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[TTPpentad]

It’s going to be program-dependent. My program is very accommodating (especially with the way our intern year is set up and my PD is awesome), but I encountered some programs while interviewing that the residents eluded to not being friendly with pregnancies. Best bet would be to talk to the residents of programs you’re interested in; this can be a tough topic to bring up during actual interviews. Feel free to PM me.

 

[Groove]

Do you, your future self and practice, the baby, and your fellow residents a favor and wait 3 years to have the kid. Everybody wants to pop one out at the worst possible time...like residency.

That being said, pregnancy is certainly alive and well in residency and people seem to manage. You'll sacrifice though. I've known several pregnant residents in various specialties as well as EM. None of them were rock stars and most barely slid by while juggling motherhood responsibilities outside their programs. That being said, we worked more hours when I came along and had longer calls, etc.. so maybe times have changed and it's easier these days than from what I remember.

 

[Porfirio]

Have kids when you want. Do not let medicine stop you.

 

[MedScat]

I appreciate everyone taking the time to respond! We both want kids soon so its not him pressuring me...we have a large age gap (20 years) and I'm already an older non-trad student (i mean, 30 years old, not that old but hes 50). Going in to medical school, we knew wed want kids and ideally, I wish i could do it now during my 3rd year since I'm essentially just a fly on the wall with no responsibilities but unfortunately our circumstances aren't allowing it now. He works 2 hours away from where I go to school so for these 4 years, we are semi long distance. He's only with me 4 days out of the week when hes not working. I love medicine and right now as a new 3rd year student its definitely stressful trying to choose a specialty. A lot of people say getting into medical school is the hardest part which is true in some ways but also not true in other ways...especially if non-trad.

I'm just struggling trying to find what will make me happy as well as give us the lifestyle that I want. I guess it'll be a long year of soul searching.

 

[MedScat]

also - I've heard its not wise to bring up anything baby related during residency interviews - is this true? I mean it seems to make sense (albeit, it's messed up). But i was prepared not to address these concerns at all on interview day. Is it frowned upon?

 

[DeadCactus]

Plenty of people happily have kids in medical school and residency and plenty of people who wait end up struggling. Most EM programs seem to be pretty accommodating partly because of the personalities in EM and partly because even in residency the schedule is more compatible with a family life.

You can't have everything. You can't move 1000 miles away from everyone you know, both have demanding high-hour jobs, be financially stretched, aggressively pursue a hobby, maintain a healthy lifestyle, be a good resident, and be a good parent. Everyone's situation is going to be different and more or less challenging than someone else's but most people can figure out a way to make it work. Pick what's most important, optimize things, and sacrifice some of the things you care less about.

Explore your options for 4th year, that might be a great time to have a child. I would probably avoid intern year. Try to match into a situation that stacks some things in your favor. Family or friends nearby who can help with childcare, a cost of living that will let you hire some extra help, somewhere you can live close to work, etc.

Edit: Programs aren't supposed to ask you about your family plans but you can bring it up. Some people may view it negatively though you wouldn't want to be at such programs anyway. Still, it's the match and you want to keep as many options open as you can. I would err toward asking residents if anyone in the program has had children and what their experience was like. I would avoid having it seem to be your main focus for the next 3-4 years.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

This is part of life. Most of our attendings have young kids. Some of our residents do. We've had many residents have a child in residency, and some 2 of their children in residency. This is not a burden on the program. This is a normal part of life if you choose it to be. The issue isn't how it impacts the residency, its none of their business if you choose to have kids or not, and they should be nothing but supportive of you and your family if you do. The issue is how it affects you. If you have good childcare, then this is very doable. But if your SO works a full time job, plus you are working on a tough rotation for 80 hrs a week, or working a string of night shifts in the ED, it can be really hard if you don't have someone to help with the childcare.

 

[WilcoWorld]

Female med student here trying to figure out what I want to do with my life, currently interested in EM. Having children soon is a priority for my husband and I so I'm looking for family friendly residencies in fields of medicine that I would enjoy. Thoughts/experiences?

Some residency programs are understanding and accepting of pregnancy. Those are numerous enough that you'll probably want to avoid the rest. I encourage you to respectfully ask about this during interviews and make your rank list accordingly.

 

[WilcoWorld]

also - I've heard its not wise to bring up anything baby related during residency interviews - is this true? I mean it seems to make sense (albeit, it's messed up). But i was prepared not to address these concerns at all on interview day. Is it frowned upon?

Bollocks - if it's frowned upon, that's not the program for you. Might be the program for someone else*, but not you.

*My residency was NOT pregnancy friendly, it was OK given my situation, but I wouldn't recommend it to someone looking to start a family during residency.

 

[WilcoWorld]

There’s no such thing as a DOCTOR friendly residency. Except maybe derm, and PMNR.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Bollocks - if it's frowned upon, that's not the program for you. Might be the program for someone else*, but not you.

*My residency was NOT pregnancy friendly, it was OK given my situation, but I wouldn't recommend it to someone looking to start a family during residency.

I'd agree with this. If a place is openly going to be biased against you for having kids, why would you want to go there? They are exposing their priorities, which is to work you as much as they can. Otherwise, why else would they care what you do in your personal life.

 

[miacomet]

Residency is tough in any field. The bigger issue is what happens after residency, and EM is definitely not family-friendly. Really hard to miss holidays with the kids and to find childcare at nonstandard hours.

 

[miacomet]

I agree with you that residency is tough in any field. Not sure I agree though on it not being family friendly in comparison to other specialties. The field of medicine isn’t overly conducive to family life, although many find a way. I would add that as an EP you have an easier ability to work fewer hours than many specialties. The hours may or may not be off from the traditional 9-5 schedule, and may be harder, but it may be better than being on call all the time depending upon your situation.

Not to be overly confrontational or derail the OPs thread, but I don’t quite understand why you still practice clinically in EM as you generally seem disgruntled with EM in most of your posts (others more than this one). I suppose the compensation to you is a trade off you’re willing to make despite everything else. The negative realities of EM are relevant when considering what kind of professional and personal life you’d like in choosing a specialty.

1. It's really hard to get other jobs right now; I'm open to suggestions
2. Two years to FIRE, I hope
3. It seems unsporting to leave in the middle of a pandemic
4. I'm trying to negotiate a really sweet schedule; that might make it worth it
5. Once again, there are very few other jobs right now

 

[KeikoTanaka]

I would enjoy being in the hospital when my water broke

 

[gamerEMdoc]

I pretty much agree with you. How do you feel though if someone takes 6 weeks of maternity/paternity leave, as well as the impact that has on scheduling rotations and other residents?

It doesn't matter. Most people who have a baby in residency takes 6 weeks of maternity leave. You work around it. That's normal life. Residency is no different than any other aspect of the hospital. Physicians, nurses, techs... they have children, they have to take time off. It's really not a big deal.

Ideally you can schedule around it, or you go a little short for a month in the resident schedule.

Any supportive residency isn't going to care. Trust me.

 

[thegenius]

I appreciate everyone taking the time to respond! We both want kids soon so its not him pressuring me...we have a large age gap (20 years) and I'm already an older non-trad student (i mean, 30 years old, not that old but hes 50). Going in to medical school, we knew wed want kids and ideally, I wish i could do it now during my 3rd year since I'm essentially just a fly on the wall with no responsibilities but unfortunately our circumstances aren't allowing it now. He works 2 hours away from where I go to school so for these 4 years, we are semi long distance. He's only with me 4 days out of the week when hes not working. I love medicine and right now as a new 3rd year student its definitely stressful trying to choose a specialty. A lot of people say getting into medical school is the hardest part which is true in some ways but also not true in other ways...especially if non-trad.

I'm just struggling trying to find what will make me happy as well as give us the lifestyle that I want. I guess it'll be a long year of soul searching.

If you are 30 and you want a kid, then I would recommend having one. Honestly it's way more important than the medical specialty you want to go into.

The principle reason is it's easier to be a young parent than be an old parent. I know because I have two teenage kids and I'm in my mid 40s. I also went to medical school at age 30, but it's different for me because I'm a man and you are a woman.

The sooner you have kids, the sooner you get to get rid of them.

 

[oldiebutgoodie1211]

also - I've heard its not wise to bring up anything baby related during residency interviews - is this true? I mean it seems to make sense (albeit, it's messed up). But i was prepared not to address these concerns at all on interview day. Is it frowned upon?

it does make sense and it’s not really messed up, if you’re out pregnant then others have to cover for you, not really fair is it?

 

[WilcoWorld]

Residency is tough in any field. The bigger issue is what happens after residency, and EM is definitely not family-friendly. Really hard to miss holidays with the kids and to find childcare at nonstandard hours.

You obviously missed the 2006 memo - "EMERGENCY MEDICINE IS THE MOST FAMILY FRIENDLY FIELD."

 

[WilcoWorld]

it does make sense and it’s not really messed up, if you’re out pregnant then others have to cover for you, not really fair is it?

Yes, it's fair if that same co-resident would be willing to cover your shift to attend your sibling's wedding or to get an ileostomy to treat IBD.

 

[oldiebutgoodie1211]

Yes, it's fair if that same parent would be willing to cover your shift after a car accident or an abdominal surgery to treat IBD complications.

No, it's not fair if someone expects you to cover their hangover.

if you think pregnancy and a car accident are identical I think the convo ends right there

 

[gamerEMdoc]

it does make sense and it’s not really messed up, if you’re out pregnant then others have to cover for you, not really fair is it?

This is part of work. It is terribly sexist to tell someone that they cannot have children for three years because “we don’t want to cover for you”. Its insanely easy to cover that time. You move their elective month to the birth month so they arent missed on the schedule. Or some other easy rotation they wont be missed on. It’s really not that hard. And it’s completely inappropriate to ask people to put their lives on hold for 3 years so others can’t be inconvenienced.

Even if they missed an ED month, you were looking at being down only one resident for a month. Programs lose residence for an entire year. It’s really not that hard to make up.

 

[WilcoWorld]

if you think pregnancy and a car accident are identical I think the convo ends right there

Ha! you caught me mid-edit - I don't want to say pregnancy = car accidents.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

You also have to remember that residents still have to complete the curriculum to graduate. So just because a resident takes 6 weeks off, that isn't just a free 6 weeks of free time they don't make up. Some of my residents have made up their time by taking 2 weeks of vacation time, then 4 weeks off, which they then make up by working 1-2 shifts a months until they reach the payback for an ED month. If they gave birth on an ED month and someone had to work extra for them, then their extra shifts in the future that they work go to that resident working less that month in the future. Everyone pays everyone back. No one is inconveniencing anyone.

 

[oldiebutgoodie1211]

You also have to remember that residents still have to complete the curriculum to graduate. So just because a resident takes 6 weeks off, that isn't just a free 6 weeks of free time they don't make up. Some of my residents have made up their time by taking 2 weeks of vacation time, then 4 weeks off, which they then make up by working 1-2 shifts a months until they reach the payback for an ED month. If they gave birth on an ED month and someone had to work extra for them, then their extra shifts in the future that they work go to that resident working less that month in the future. Everyone pays everyone back. No one is inconveniencing anyone.

if that’s the case that’s great and there should be no complaints, however, in many other specialties like surgery for example, people will be covering for you and you’ll be burdening your co residents by taking off for pregnancy so the entire point of my posts is just to say that it’s not unreasonable for this to be a consideration for your future employer and planning to get pregnant during residency is probably not the best idea in general, do it before or after or your chief year or whatever, after all if family is so important to you you’ll make it work and maybe wouldn’t have chosen a high work job in the first place

 

[miacomet]

Remember that any job is required to give you 12 weeks FMLA leave after you have been there a year. ACGME takes this very seriously; you must be given your 12 weeks by law, although you do have to make up a certain amount in order to graduate residency (I believe any more than six weeks, but it may be specialty-dependent).

In many ways you are actually more protected from repercussions in residency than you are as an attending as you are employed, not on a partnership track, and ACGME monitors the programs for compliance.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

it’s not unreasonable for this to be a consideration for your future employer

Actually it is unreasonable. And its against federal law to do so. An employer has no right to discriminate against a woman based on pregnancy status or future pregnancy plans. You could get in big trouble doing this.

 

[Groove]

1. It's really hard to get other jobs right now; I'm open to suggestions
2. Two years to FIRE, I hope
3. It seems unsporting to leave in the middle of a pandemic
4. I'm trying to negotiate a really sweet schedule; that might make it worth it
5. Once again, there are very few other jobs right now

@miacomet you should create a thread sharing details of your FIRE strategy with financials. Lots of us would be very curious as to what you have planned.

 

[thegenius]

it does make sense and it’s not really messed up, if you’re out pregnant then others have to cover for you, not really fair is it?

I can speak for EM but no other fields. In EM we worked 20 12 hr shifts / month which was the max per RRC. Can’t work an hour more.

So if someone gets pregnant I can’t really “cover” their shifts. I’m already maxed out.

A few women in our residence had kids. I never even realized they were gone.

I consider this whole pregnancy residency argument moot. The hospital will function just exactly normally as it always does whether someone is out for a month on maternity leave or not. This isn’t 1940 when 95% of doctors were men and they got to harass the handful of women on these kinds of issues.

 

[Apollyon]

I can speak for EM but no other fields. In EM we worked 20 12 hr shifts / month which was the max per RRC. Can’t work an hour more.

Well, 60 hrs/week clinical, but 72 hrs/week total, per the RRC. That's for conference, journal club, chief duties, and the like. Just an aside.

 

[bravotwozero]

The principle reason is it's easier to be a young parent than be an old parent. I know because I have two teenage kids and I'm in my mid 40s. I also went to medical school at age 30, but it's different for me because I'm a man and you are a woman.

Teenagers huh, both boys? If so, would love to see your monthly grocery bill, lol.

 

[PTPoeny]

if that’s the case that’s great and there should be no complaints, however, in many other specialties like surgery for example, people will be covering for you and you’ll be burdening your co residents by taking off for pregnancy so the entire point of my posts is just to say that it’s not unreasonable for this to be a consideration for your future employer and planning to get pregnant during residency is probably not the best idea in general, do it before or after or your chief year or whatever, after all if family is so important to you you’ll make it work and maybe wouldn’t have chosen a high work job in the first place

The impact on the rest of the residency varies widely by specialty and size of the residency. But there are plenty of surgical residents who have posted on here who are expected to make up all their calls ahead of maternity leave and then also are still in the call pool for the six weeks they extend their training. So the other residents are on more frequent call for the time the woman is out but in the end take fewer total calls over the entire length of residency.

For larger residencies where there are residents on electives and away rotations (not right now, obviously) it shouldn't make any difference at all if someone is on maternity leave!

Some of the technicalities will also likely change in the near future. There is a proposal for all ABMS specialties to allow a single 6 week leave without extending residency. The full ACGME protections for breastfeeding just went into effect this month, so changes continue

For everyone complaining about residents taking maternity leave, do you think it is better as an attending? Especially in the specialties with small residencies, outside of large academic centers, there tend to be small attending groups. If there are three attendings and one is out for any reason the other two are taking lots of call!

 

[clibby]

If a residency can't accommodate a resident who is pregnant/hurt/has a family emergency/etc., then that is a serious problem for the residency. It isn't hard to reschedule people and it isn't hard to make up shifts if needed. If it is too much of a problem for your residency, then you probably need to look at restructuring your program and/or whether you actually have the capacity to have one at all. Worst case, a department with attendings should be able to pick up a bit of extra work if a resident, their replacement resident, or a PA/NP can't come in.

I know of a resident at IU who was recently able to not only convince the EM program that residents in their first and third trimesters shouldn't do nights (unless they wanted to), but every GME program in the hospital. You never know when you will need help, supporting each other is part of that. Scheduling life doesn't get that much easier after residency, so don't put your life on hold in hopes of greener pastures.

 

[oldiebutgoodie1211]

If a residency can't accommodate a resident who is pregnant/hurt/has a family emergency/etc., then that is a serious problem for the residency. It isn't hard to reschedule people and it isn't hard to make up shifts if needed. If it is too much of a problem for your residency, then you probably need to look at restructuring your program and/or whether you actually have the capacity to have one at all. Worst case, a department with attendings should be able to pick up a bit of extra work if a resident, their replacement resident, or a PA/NP can't come in.

I know of a resident at IU who was recently able to not only convince the EM program that residents in their first and third trimesters shouldn't do nights (unless they wanted to), but every GME program in the hospital. You never know when you will need help, supporting each other is part of that. Scheduling life doesn't get that much easier after residency, so don't put your life on hold in hopes of greener pastures.

pregnancy is a choice, getting hurt/family emergency/etc is not a choice, if you want to get pregnant and raise a family you don’t need to go to residency you can stay home and have all the time in the world with your children which would probably be better for the kids anyway

 

[Hercules]

pregnancy is a choice, getting hurt/family emergency/etc is not a choice, if you want to get pregnant and raise a family you don’t need to go to residency you can stay home and have all the time in the world with your children which would probably be better for the kids anyway

One can only assume you’re trolling at this point

 

[Apollyon]

One can only assume you’re trolling at this point

I think that trolling has been that person's angle from the beginning.

 

[thegenius]

One can only assume you’re trolling at this point

I was going to write the same thing! You beat me to it. He is 100% wrong, women can be doctors and give birth during residency, he is completely out of touch with reality, and frankly would not be the kind of resident i would want to work with, because he would secretly complain about his coresidents if they had a baby during residency.

This thread is over as far as I’m concerned.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

pregnancy is a choice, getting hurt/family emergency/etc is not a choice, if you want to get pregnant and raise a family you don’t need to go to residency you can stay home and have all the time in the world with your children which would probably be better for the kids anyway

Come on, this has to be a troll. Mods?

 

[thegenius]

Come on, this has to be a troll. Mods?

I clicked on oldiebutgoodie's "Report" link and reported him.

 

[oldiebutgoodie1211]

Come on, this has to be a troll. Mods?

mods? You want to ban me from ever posting again because I have a different opinion than you?

 

[WilcoWorld]

Yeah I completely disagree with everything you’ve written on the subject of this thread... but I have to agree here, there’s no reason to get the mods involved especially in light of the fact that there’s been no personal attack.

We all know the power trip the mods have been on lately, let’s not give them any more reason to Orwell this forum.

I agree that users should not get banned for simply having an unpopular opinion (even one as abhorrent as the one stated above). On the other hand, if a user is only posting trolling messages, that may violate the TOS. On the other other hand (I have 3 hands, you see), that requires that "trolling" be clearly defined and that's a tough thing to do.

 

[thegenius]

I agree that users should not get banned for simply having an unpopular opinion (even one as abhorrent as the one stated above). On the other hand, if a user is only posting trolling messages, that may violate the TOS. On the other other hand (I have 3 hands, you see), that requires that "trolling" be clearly defined and that's a tough thing to do.

But what about on your other hand?

 

[WilcoWorld]

But what about on your other hand?

 

[Arch Guillotti]

Yeah I completely disagree with everything you’ve written on the subject of this thread... but I have to agree here, there’s no reason to get the mods involved especially in light of the fact that there’s been no personal attack.

We all know the power trip the mods have been on lately, let’s not give them any more reason to Orwell this forum.

Wrong.

I banned the user because of trolling and it wasn't the troller's first rodeo.

Sorry if you don't like the moderation here but remember that this is SDN not a symposium on constitutional rights.

The last EM moderator is no longer which is not ideal.

The EM forum is kind of like the "gas" forum. Lots of long-time users who post about many topics that are not necessarily professionally related. I can promise you that the moderation is more "lax" than almost every other forum on the entire site. Many of us are attending and have been for some time and I understand that most if not all of us are averse to "moderation". You still have to abide by basic rules of forum decorum though. Even though I have been here since the place started I don't get to make up the rules or be the sole arbiter of moderation. In fact, I don't always agree with some of the moderation decisions but that's life.

This forum usually tends to moderate by homeostasis and that's how it should be.

The banned user was a troll 100%. No doubt. Probably would have been banned even if the post hadn't been reported.

Users who come here to grind an axe or have an agenda or just don't really contribute anything meaningful really don't add anything to SDN.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

We all know the power trip the mods have been on lately, let’s not give them any more reason to Orwell this forum.

Is this comment in regard to the "mask" issue and/or thread?

 

[Birdstrike]

The last EM moderator is no longer which is not ideal.

What do you mean, "The last EM moderator is no longer"?

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

What do you mean, "The last EM moderator is no longer"?

Dr. McNinja deleted his account

 

[Birdstrike]

Dr. McNinja deleted his account

Really? Deleted? What the heck? After, what, 10 years?

 

[Apollyon]

Yeah I completely disagree with everything you’ve written on the subject of this thread... but I have to agree here, there’s no reason to get the mods involved especially in light of the fact that there’s been no personal attack.

We all know the power trip the mods have been on lately, let’s not give them any more reason to Orwell this forum.

I am not sure, but, I think that that this person somehow slipped and said that they were here before at some time. Maybe I'm just imagining it. Regardless, and this is just in the general, not specific to that person, but, if someone has been previously banned, then, the bar is MUCH lower for rebanning.

I was thinking that my post just got passed over, but, then, notice that I didn't actually post it! Promise, this was from about 3 hours ago!

 

[bravotwozero]

Really? Deleted? What the heck? After, what, 10 years?

Yeah. Hope he's ok.