Is ENT still possible?

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Pardon my ignorance, but I felt I would receive a better answer here than in Pre-Medical Osteopathic.

I know it's a bit premature to commit to a single specialty before even beginning medical school, but I have had the opportunity to shadow many types of physicians over the years. Based on those experiences, if I had to pick a specialty, it would be either Peds or ENT.

I figure DOs shouldn't have any problem matching into Peds. However, I am aware ENT is incredibly competitive (impossible for DOs in the current ACGME), especially with the merger having happened by the time I apply for residency/graduate. I know there are about six(?) AOA ENT programs in Michigan, and slightly more than half dozen in total nationwide. Assuming they all become accredited and open to MDs, will ENT still be viable? Would attending a school like MSUCOM and/or being in Michigan help?

Just want a realistic (but still attainable) outlook with regards to this current interest - obviously a lot can change in medical school.
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Nobody can predict what it will look like when the merger is fully complete.

Only thing that can be said is that programs with experience taking DOs probably won't magically close all doors to us.
 
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The real question is will your Comlex1/step1 be top 10%?
 
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Crush your boards. Network. You'll be fine.
 
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A) Be a superstar
B) Do what the Program Directors like seeing:

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/NRMP-2016-Program-Director-Survey.pdf See page 86

Interestingly, even if there is a lot of self-selection going on, about 20% of applicants snag interviews!

But you still have an uphill battle. ~50% of programs seldom or often interview DOs (only 7% often) and 43% never interview them.




Natural Killer Cell said:
Pardon my ignorance, but I felt I would receive a better answer here than in Pre-Medical Osteopathic. Obviously the cycle is still ongoing, but let's assume I end up at MSUCOM this summer.

I know it's a bit premature to commit to a single specialty before even beginning medical school, but I have had the opportunity to shadow many types of physicians over the years. Based on those experiences, if I had to pick a specialty, it would be either Peds or ENT.

I figure DOs shouldn't have any problem matching into Peds. However, I am aware ENT is incredibly competitive (impossible for DOs in the current ACGME), especially with the merger having happened by the time I apply for residency/graduate. I know there are about six(?) AOA ENT programs in Michigan, and slightly more than half dozen in total nationwide. Assuming they all become accredited and open to MDs, will ENT still be viable? Would attending a school like MSUCOM and/or being in Michigan help?

Just want a realistic (but still attainable) outlook with regards to this current interest - obviously a lot can change in medical school.
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Goro said:
A) Be a superstar
B) Do what the Program Directors like seeing:

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/NRMP-2016-Program-Director-Survey.pdf See page 86

Interestingly, even if there is a lot of self-selection going on, about 20% of applicants snag interviews!

But you still have an uphill battle. ~50% of programs seldom or often interview DOs (only 7% often) and 43% never interview them.
Click to expand...


Needless to say, I don't think it's exactly worthwhile to not take an osteopathic acceptance and do another cycle for MD simply for the possibility of matching into ENT easier (especially when my interests could change and/or my board scores aren't top-of-the-line). However, do you think the current AOA ENT program that'll become accredited will absorb this bias from the ACGME side? I've also heard that these programs now have to take new PDs (who'll carry this mentality over), or was that a rumor/falsehood?
 
Just an interesting note, at my state MD school the peds ENT fellow is a DO and the program director loves him. He trained at one of the Michigan residency programs. ENT will be like any surgical sub, to get it you will need to be top notch in every way. The same would be said though if you went MD, ENT is one of the most competitive specialties.
 
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Natural Killer Cell said:
Needless to say, I don't think it's exactly worthwhile to not take an osteopathic acceptance and do another cycle for MD simply for the possibility of matching into ENT easier (especially when my interests could change and/or my board scores aren't top-of-the-line). However, do you think the current AOA ENT program that'll become accredited will absorb this bias from the ACGME side? I've also heard that these programs now have to take new PDs (who'll carry this mentality over), or was that a rumor/falsehood?
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That's false to my understanding. The only field that was holding out for making the PDs having to be ACGME trained was neurosurgery I believe, I have no idea if they finally caved.
 
Natural Killer Cell said:
Pardon my ignorance, but I felt I would receive a better answer here than in Pre-Medical Osteopathic. Obviously the cycle is still ongoing, but let's assume I end up at MSUCOM this summer.

I know it's a bit premature to commit to a single specialty before even beginning medical school, but I have had the opportunity to shadow many types of physicians over the years. Based on those experiences, if I had to pick a specialty, it would be either Peds or ENT.

I figure DOs shouldn't have any problem matching into Peds. However, I am aware ENT is incredibly competitive (impossible for DOs in the current ACGME), especially with the merger having happened by the time I apply for residency/graduate. I know there are about six(?) AOA ENT programs in Michigan, and slightly more than half dozen in total nationwide. Assuming they all become accredited and open to MDs, will ENT still be viable? Would attending a school like MSUCOM and/or being in Michigan help?

Just want a realistic (but still attainable) outlook with regards to this current interest - obviously a lot can change in medical school.
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Not impossible to match, but super tough. A recent KCUMB graduate matched into an ACGME ENT program. He had a pretty good CV.
 
moyamoya6 said:
Not impossible to match, but super tough. A recent KCUMB graduate matched into an ACGME ENT program. He had a pretty good CV.
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That ENT match to Tulane wasn't even their top choice! (Emailed this person directly).

Crushed just about everything. Did basic science research at KU Med Center, im pretty sure scored a perfect comlex and also did amazing on USMLE.


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AlteredScale said:
That ENT match to Tulane wasn't even their top choice! (Emailed this person directly).

Crushed just about everything. Did basic science research at KU Med Center, im pretty sure scored a perfect comlex and also did amazing on USMLE.


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Click to expand...
what was his/her advice to crushing boards?
 
AlteredScale said:
Strangely enough, that wasn't a question I asked hahaha. I just wanted to see what kind of research they did and why they chose to do that research.
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I already reported it but AS that is a troll account mimicking everything about mine with grey spelled with an A.

Edit: they even have the same quote in their sig
 
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AlteredScale said:
Strangely enough, that wasn't a question I asked hahaha. I just wanted to see what kind of research they did and why they chose to do that research.
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What kind of research did they partake in? You said basic science, but what specifically?

Is basic science research more favored or clinical?
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
I already reported it but AS that is a troll account mimicking everything about mine with grey spelled with an A.

Edit: they even have the same quote in their sig
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Not everything is trolling.

"
troll2
trōl/
verb
gerund or present participle: trolling
  1. 1.
    informal
    make a deliberately offensive or provocative online post with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them.
    "if people are obviously trolling then I'll delete your posts and do my best to ban you"
If you get offended by the fact that I have a different name than you, an interest in hunting, an interest in Dr. House quotes, then I believe you need to grow up and develop some emotional maturity.
 
AnatomyGray12 said:
Not everything is trolling.

"
troll2
trōl/
verb
gerund or present participle: trolling
  1. 1.
    informal
    make a deliberately offensive or provocative online post with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them.
    "if people are obviously trolling then I'll delete your posts and do my best to ban you"
If you get offended by the fact that I have a different name than you, an interest in hunting, an interest in Dr. House quotes, then I believe you need to grow up and develop some emotional maturity.
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Hi boo. The banhammer will come quick this time.
 
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It's 100% how you do on the boards.

For ENT as a DO, I'd say you have to score in top 2-3% on usmle. I'm unaware of comlex side.
 
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Kill boards, do research, apply to former AOA ENT programs.
 
Orrrrrr do HPSP and match into a military ENT! (Still gotta kill boards and do some research)
 
Goro said:
A) Be a superstar
B) Do what the Program Directors like seeing:

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/NRMP-2016-Program-Director-Survey.pdf See page 86

Interestingly, even if there is a lot of self-selection going on, about 20% of applicants snag interviews!

But you still have an uphill battle. ~50% of programs seldom or often interview DOs (only 7% often) and 43% never interview them.
Click to expand...

Was that 50% residency programs in general, or ENT programs?


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kovalchuk71 said:
Oh, of course not. It's just unfortunate that some don't have the opportunity.
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Yeah. I feel bad for people who want to serve and can't for whatever reason. But I've also lost shipmates on deployment due to anxiety or depression or other mental health issues, and it's really frustrating. It causes a lot of work for everyone else and hurts the command's ability to perform its mission. So I see why it's like that.
 
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RamsFan&FutureDO said:
Orrrrrr do HPSP and match into a military ENT! (Still gotta kill boards and do some research)
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Based on a review of the recent GME slideshows.... For 2016 Army Mil Med graduates (USUHS/HPSP/ROTC) only one DO was selected. Class of 2014 no DOs were selected for Army ENT. Class of 2017 match results will be published next month. There are only 7 Otolaryngology slots for Army MS4 applicants.

Search GME Slideshow 20xx to see the recent years Army match results published each year in March.

Small numbers - high risk. Don't do HPSP if you would be disappointed to not match in a competitive specialty. Read some of WernickeDOs posts regarding the difficulty to return to residency from GMO too.
 
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If you don't match as a DO you were probably weren't gonna match as an MD.
 
JB50 said:
If you don't match as a DO you were probably weren't gonna match as an MD.
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I don't agree with this because its too sweeping of a generalization. A DO with great board scores and ent research and decent letters will still be locked out of many ACGME programs simply on the basis of their degree. It's that simple. An MD with the same accolades listed above will more than likely have stronger letters from stronger ent faculty who carry weight in the field and will have a much better shot.


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AlteredScale said:
I don't agree with this because its too sweeping of a generalization. A DO with great board scores and ent research and decent letters will still be locked out of many ACGME programs simply on the basis of their degree. It's that simple. An MD with the same accolades listed above will more than likely have stronger letters from stronger ent faculty who carry weight in the field and will have a much better shot.


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Click to expand...



You're not comparing apples to apples, as per usual. A strong DO student with a great app will probably match. A MD with a great app will probably match with marginally higher chances. A mediocre DO student with a mediocre app will most likely not match ENT. A mediocre MD with a mediocre app will most likely not match ENT.

You're assuming almost every MD student will have a better app than a top notch DO, which is a false assumption. You're also assuming that every MD student will have some nuthugger relationship to the best of the best in the field, which is also a false assumption.

Opie also did not ask to match at JHU or Harvard. He wants to be an ENT, its that simple.

Yawn. The moral of the story is if you're a low to average student, you're chances are low whether you're an MD or a DO.
 
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JB50 said:
A strong DO student with a great app will probably match. A MD with a great app will probably match with marginally higher chances.
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Page 91 of the NRMP survey states that 43% of ENT program directors NEVER interview an osteopathic student. 97% of PDs almost always interview US Senior MD applicants. That decreases a DO students chances to match much farther than the marginal difference you just stated.http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/NRMP-2016-Program-Director-Survey.pdf
JB50 said:
You're assuming almost every MD student will have a better app than a top notch DO, which is a false assumption. You're also assuming that every MD student will have some nuthugger relationship to the best of the best in the field, which is also a false assumption.
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First of all, you are assuming I said "almost every MD student". We are talking strictly about those who apply to ENT.

Tell me, how many DO schools have an ENT department? Of those, how many have research faculty doing bench and translational work in that ENT dept? MD students are wise enough to understand that their ENT dept have clinician scientists and physician scientists who will mentor them and do in fact carry weight if they want to match ENT in that department. How is this a false assumption again? You honestly believe there are MD's who think just a 240 is enough to apply to ENT? That is ridiculous.

JB50 said:
Yawn. The moral of the story is if you're a low to average student, you're chances are low whether you're an MD or a DO.
Click to expand...

Wrong. As a DO student, you will have a hard time applying to ENT. Only 32% of program directors rank DO applicants. 43% never rank or interview, 46-50% seldom interview or rank, and only 7-11% actually rank or interview DO applicants.

In case you missed it above, page 91: http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/NRMP-2016-Program-Director-Survey.pdf
 
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AlteredScale said:
Page 91 of the NRMP survey states that 43% of ENT program directors NEVER interview an osteopathic student. 97% of PDs almost always interview US Senior MD applicants. That decreases a DO students chances to match much farther than the marginal difference you just stated.http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/NRMP-2016-Program-Director-Survey.pdf


First of all, you are assuming I said "almost every MD student". We are talking strictly about those who apply to ENT.

Tell me, how many DO schools have an ENT department? Of those, how many have research faculty doing bench and translational work in that ENT dept? MD students are wise enough to understand that their ENT dept have clinician scientists and physician scientists who will mentor them and do in fact carry weight if they want to match ENT in that department. How is this a false assumption again? You honestly believe there are MD's who think just a 240 is enough to apply to ENT? That is ridiculous.



Wrong. As a DO student, you will have a hard time applying to ENT. Only 32% of program directors rank DO applicants. 43% never rank or interview, 46-50% seldom interview or rank, and only 7-11% actually rank or interview DO applicants.

In case you missed it above, page 91: http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/NRMP-2016-Program-Director-Survey.pdf
Click to expand...

This is ACGME only, no?
 
DO ENT is exceptionally competitive, even more so than ortho. According to the last DO match report there were 2.5 applicants per spot, that sucks. Remember this isn't just the whole DO applicant pool, only 40% of DOs who thought they were competitive enough to apply ENT matched. Some of these DO spots will not make the merger, further exacerbating the problem. You are decreasing the overall number of DO friendly programs in a field where the ACGME side has only taken like 3 DOs in the last 5 years.
 
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What do people do that don't match?
 
Scramble into a less competitive specialty most likely, or scramble into a TRI and then reapply to a different less competitive specialty or even give ENT another go. Not matching sucks.

Before a strategy would be that the DO would apply ENT in the AOA match and then apply to a less competitive specialty in ACGME, like rads, gen surg, IM, etc. Because audition rotations isn't really a thing in the MD world and they could schedule as many audition rotations as they could in ENT to maximize their chances to matching.
 
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JB50 said:
This is ACGME only, no?
Click to expand...

Yes. If we are talking about AOA programs then sure a DO student will match so as long as their app is great. But that's not even comparing apples to anything. That's comparing a residency system that doesn't even take MDs and will be nonexistent in 3 short years.

http://www.aocoohns.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/042136db81bd49c1eb1b73b425af1bba1.pdf

There are open slots in many of these AOA ENT programs. This is why many of these residencies that consistently go unfilled will not even make the cut come ACMGE accreditation. (In MO, one is closing, and other 2 cannot even participate in the AOA match until they complete their ACGME application).
 
AlteredScale said:
Yes. If we are talking about AOA programs then sure a DO student will match so as long as their app is great.

http://www.aocoohns.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/042136db81bd49c1eb1b73b425af1bba1.pdf

There are open slots in many of these AOA ENT programs. This is why many of these residencies that consistently go unfilled will not even make the cut come ACMGE accreditation. (In MO, one is closing, and other 2 cannot even participate in the AOA match until they complete their ACGME application).
Click to expand...
Gotcha, don't think we were on the same page to begin with. I don't think the majority of us care if we can't get into ACGME programs if we can still somehow get in to AOA's. Most of us (99.9 %) would still take an AOA spot versus doing something less desireable.
 
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JB50 said:
Gotcha, don't think we were on the same page to begin with. I don't think the majority of us care if we can't get into ACGME programs if we can still somehow get in to AOA's. Most of us (99.9 %) would still take an AOA spot versus doing something less desireable.
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Alright, well my first statement you responded to specifically said that I was comparing DOs and MDs within the ACGME since the coming reality for anyone going to DO school is that 1) there will be no such thing as an AOA match, 2) most AOA programs that have moved to ACGME have not applied for osteopathic recognition because they don't see it necessary and don't mind having MD applicants with strong accolades apply to their program (there are many that will still prefer DO's without a doubt still without OR). And NO, it's not because they are salivating at the fact of having MD's there, it's because ACGME requirements regarding research are much more stringent than those of AOA and therefore having someone with a research background that continued through their medical education (which is a good majority of MD students) helps in maintaining continued accreditation with the ACGME upon the teams site visit.

The times of "settling" for an AOA program in a competitive specialty to hide away from MD competition are over.
 
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JB50 said:
Gotcha, don't think we were on the same page to begin with. I don't think the majority of us care if we can't get into ACGME programs if we can still somehow get in to AOA's. Most of us (99.9 %) would still take an AOA spot versus doing something less desireable.
Click to expand...

True, maybe my philosophy will change the further in the process I get but for me I care more about matching the specialty I want than any particular program. As long as it makes me a good whatever I will be happy. Maybe that's just a naive thought process.
 
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AlteredScale said:
Alright, well my first statement you responded to specifically said that I was comparing DOs and MDs within the ACGME since the coming reality for anyone going to DO school is that 1) there will be no such thing as an AOA match, 2) most AOA programs that have moved to ACGME have not applied for osteopathic recognition because they don't see it necessary and don't mind having MD applicants with strong accolades apply to their program (there are many that will still prefer DO's without a doubt still without OR).
Click to expand...

Maybe if the process was more simple more programs would do it, apparently getting OR requires an exorbiant amount of paperwork.
 
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AnatomyGrey12 said:
Maybe if the process was more simple more programs would do it, apparently getting OR requires an exorbiant amount of paperwork.
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That is true AND it cost money to apply for that as well!

I think they also steer away from it because they know that if they require OMM training and competencies within their program it will deter not only MD applicants but a HUGE amount of DO applicants as well (I know I won't be applying to any of those programs, I am DONE with OMM once I take COMLEX Level 3).
 
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AnatomyGrey12 said:
Scramble into a less competitive specialty most likely, or scramble into a TRI and then reapply to a different less competitive specialty or even give ENT another go. Not matching sucks.

Before a strategy would be that the DO would apply ENT in the AOA match and then apply to a less competitive specialty in ACGME, like rads, gen surg, IM, etc. Because audition rotations isn't really a thing in the MD world and they could schedule as many audition rotations as they could in ENT to maximize their chances to matching.
Click to expand...

Unrelated to the thread but, do you know which specialties do and dont require/recommend auditions? I've heard in some cases you can be more likely to hurt yourself on an audition than help yourself, would this likely defeat the advantage of having home programs/or wanting to match at your core site?


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AnatomyGrey12 said:
True, maybe my philosophy will change the further in the process I get but for me I care more about matching the specialty I want than any particular program. As long as it makes me a good whatever I will be happy. Maybe that's just a naive thought process.
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You just said what I said but in different words lol so ya bro I agree.

@AlteredScale true but the merger doesn't convert all previously AOA residencies to MD nut hugger ACGME. That's not what's gonna happen post-merger and it would be extremely foolish to think otherwise. Those residencies that were previously AOA are still gonna take a hefty amount of DOs. I plan on, when matching in four years, to research what were all previously AOA residencies and primarily apply there as a DO student. It's also why I chose MSUCOM because of the amount of in-house residencies.

Gotta pick your cards right fam. Getting through school is only half the battle
 
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Scrubs101 said:
Unrelated to the thread but, do you know which specialties do and dont require/recommend auditions? I've heard in some cases you can be more likely to hurt yourself on an audition than help yourself, would this likely defeat the advantage of having home programs/or wanting to match at your core site?


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Click to expand...

You you mean in ACGME? Or former AOA programs?
 
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