Is ENT still possible?

[AlteredScale]

You just said what I said but in different words lol so ya bro I agree.

@AlteredScale true but the merger doesn't convert all previously AOA residencies to MD nut hugger ACGME. That's not what's gonna happen post-merger and it would be extremely foolish to think otherwise. Those residencies that were previously AOA are still gonna take a hefty amount of DOs. I plan on, when matching in four years, to research what were all previously AOA residencies and primarily apply there as a DO student. It's also why I chose MSUCOM because of the amount of in-house residencies.

Gotta pick your cards right fam. Getting through school is only half the battle

Please stop calling it "nuthugger ACGME". We get how you feel about it without having to make such remarks.

I had never said ACGME approved AOA program will now ignore DO applicants when all they have known is DO applicants, when their PDs are DO applicants. I will quote what I stated about why PDs of AOA-to-ACGME programs will consider MD applicants below again.

And NO, it's not because they are salivating at the fact of having MD's there, it's because ACGME requirements regarding research are much more stringent than those of AOA and therefore having someone with a research background that continued through their medical education (which is a good majority of MD students) helps in maintaining continued accreditation with the ACGME upon the teams site visit.

Starting with the class of 2020. Everyone is going to apply ACGME, AOA programs are closing voluntarily or aren't going to make the cut, MD applications will be seen at AOA programs, and overall this is going to drive competition as a DO student no matter where you are. If you are at a place like MSU, Rowan, TCOM, OSU you still have in-house residencies to that just like with any in-house residencies will favor the home team.

And hopefully for those reading this, there are ACGME programs that were never AOA that take DOs consistently as well, not just the AOA-to-ACGME programs.

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[AnatomyGrey12]

merger doesn't convert all previously AOA residencies to MD nut hugger ACGME. That's not what's gonna happen post-merger

No but you underestimate the competitiveness of the unmatched MD applicants. The average unmatched MD applicant to ENT had a step 1 of 240, a step 2 of 247, and 6.7 pubs/abstracts/presentations. That is a pretty baller applicant who would match well in almost any other field outside those of equal competitiveness. These are the applicants that will be salivating over the few DO ENT positions, and they are going to replace some of these DO applicants. Not all, but more than 0.

 

[Scrubs101]

I think (correct if I am wrong) he means former AOA. And from the PDs I've talked to (n=4) they are not planning on taking MDs anytime soon. This merger was forced on them. Doesn't mean they need to all of a sudden pine for the program validating MDs
Edit: their words

This is good to hear! But in regards to my question, id be interested to hear about both. If it is true that some specialties recommend not doing auditions and that its possible to hurt your yourself as an applicant by auditioning, then should one only do rotations in that field at places they dont want to match? Or am i over thinking this lol?


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[AnatomyGrey12]

I just kinda meant as a generalized statement for both, are formerly AOA and ACGME programs drastically different in this sense?


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Yes they are very different. For AOA programs audition rotations were essentially a requirement for matching, and I think this trend will probably continue for the most part (my opinion). In the MD world away rotations are usually advised against because they can hurt you. They still happen but not nearly to the same extent as in the DO world. A DO applying to ACGME residencies can help their cause by doing aways because then they get to see your skills and get to know you, although it is not required to match.

This is how I understand it so a current resident is free to correct me.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

This is good to hear! But in regards to my question, id be interested to hear about both. If it is true that some specialties recommend not doing auditions and that its possible to hurt your yourself as an applicant by auditioning, then should one only do rotations in that field at places they dont want to match? Or am i over thinking this lol?


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You're over thinking it. Like I said in the (former) AOA world auditions were essentially required to match. Very very few programs took non-rotators.

 

[Scrubs101]

Yes they are very different. For AOA programs audition rotations were essentially a requirement for matching, and I think this trend will probably continue for the most part (my opinion). In the MD world away rotations are usually advised against because they can hurt you. They still happen but not nearly to the same extent as in the DO world. A DO applying to ACGME residencies can help their cause by doing aways because then they get to see your skills and get to know you, although it is. It required to match.

This is how I understand it so a current resident is free to correct me.

You're over thinking it. Like I said in the (former) AOA world auditions were essentially required to match. Very very few programs took non-rotators.

Good to know, thank you very much for the explanation!


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[deleted831695]

No but you underestimate the competitiveness of the unmatched MD applicants. The average unmatched MD applicant to ENT had a step 1 of 240, a step 2 of 247, and 6.7 pubs/abstracts/presentations. That is a pretty baller applicant who would match well in almost any other field outside those of equal competitiveness. These are the applicants that will be salivating over the few DO ENT positions, and they are going to replace some of these DO applicants. Not all, but more than 0.

This is OP here. Are those '6.7 pubs/abstracts/presentations' only referring to those accrued in medical school, or in total? Because I have 4 papers atm (co-authorships), 3 of which are from a lab in an Oto dept, and a bunch more abstracts/presentations. Will those help in the future?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

This is OP here. Are those '6.7 pubs/abstracts/presentations' only referring to those accrued in medical school, or in total? Because I have 4 papers atm (co-authorships), 3 of which are from a lab in an Oto dept, and a bunch more abstracts/presentations. Will those help in the future?

Total I believe. I'm sure they will help but that is out of my knowledge base @AlteredScale how much do undergrad pubs/posters help? I would imagine they would matter more if you continued to do research in medical school.

 

[AlteredScale]

This is OP here. Are those '6.7 pubs/abstracts/presentations' only referring to those accrued in medical school, or in total? Because I have 4 papers atm (co-authorships), 3 of which are from a lab in an Oto dept, and a bunch more abstracts/presentations. Will those help in the future?

I'm 98% sure those numbers are ones that are accrued in medical school.

You can display research work in the eras before medical school. It will help but not as much as stuff produced in medical school. They want to see that you can work hard and work well while still being productive in scholarly work.


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[AnatomyGrey12]

I'm 98% sure those numbers are ones that are accrued in medical school.

Would make sense because not many undergrads publish or even have a poster.

 

[deleted831695]

I'm 98% sure those numbers are ones that are accrued in medical school.

You can display research work in the eras before medical school. It will help but not as much as stuff produced in medical school. They want to see that you can work hard and work well while still being productive in scholarly work.

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Makes sense. At the very least, it's something that will only improve that aspect of my CV.

 

[AlteredScale]

You have a very strong background in research which one way or another will help you tremendously in the long run. Having the experience helps so much in getting opportunities in medical school.

 

[statlin98]

Not trying to derail thread, just one person needs to answer. How the hell do people find time for research in med school? Is it mostly a summer thing? 3-4th year thing only? Cause all the students I've talked to (1st and 2nd years only) seem to have little to no free time.

 

[JB50]

I think (correct if I am wrong) he means former AOA. And from the PDs I've talked to (n=4) they are not planning on taking MDs anytime soon. This merger was forced on them. Doesn't mean they need to all of a sudden pine for the program validating MDs
Edit: their words

CARS score 132

 

[AlteredScale]

Not trying to derail thread, just one person needs to answer. How the hell do people find time for research in med school? Is it mostly a summer thing? 3-4th year thing only? Cause all the students I've talked to (1st and 2nd years only) seem to have little to no free time.

Time management. I'm helping write a manuscript and abstract for a conference and there are looming deadlines in a week. It doesn't matter I have a repro path exam Monday. One of the most difficult things is actually delegating time to research and to do a good job and not stress too much about spend 2-3 hours on pubmed.


In many ways it's a reflection of how it is when one has an academic medical career: the school doesn't care your busy creating your presentations for the class you teach, that you have dictations to do and notes to finish, that grant proposal needs to be submitted and you better find time to do it or else they can find someone else a bit better with their time and a bit more ambitious than you very quickly.


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[axiomofchoice]

Consider the case study:

North shore LIJ neurosurgery used to be an AOA residency. They converted their 2 AOA spots to 1 AOA and 1 ACGME, then finally they opened both to ACGME. No DO has matched since....

I don't think this will be true for all spots after the merger, but it is certainly a reality

 

[AlteredScale]

Consider the case study:

North shore LIJ neurosurgery used to be an AOA residency. They converted their 2 AOA spots to 1 AOA and 1 ACGME, then finally they opened both to ACGME. No DO has matched since....

I don't think this will be true for all spots after the merger, but it is certainly a reality

Change of program directors after the switch from AOA to ACGME?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Change of program directors after the switch from AOA to ACGME?

Isn't that also now Hofstras home program? Becoming the home program of an MD school probably didn't help. I wonder if the same thing will happen with Carilion Clinic and VTech.

Consider the case study:

North shore LIJ neurosurgery used to be an AOA residency. They converted their 2 AOA spots to 1 AOA and 1 ACGME, then finally they opened both to ACGME. No DO has matched since....

I don't think this will be true for all spots after the merger, but it is certainly a reality

With neurosurgery sometimes I honestly wonder how many actually even try.

 

[AlteredScale]

Isn't that also now Hofstras home program? Becoming the home program of an MD school probably didn't help. I wonder if the same thing will happen with Carilion Clinic and VTech.

Yeah you are right about that. I'm not too sure about CC/VTC SOM, I've been carefully watching their IM program though and it seems like they are still keeping DOs in there. Their NSX residency just received initial accred so technically they are already an ACGME program. It will be interesting to see who they will take for this upcoming year.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Yeah you are right about that. I'm not too sure about CC/VTC SOM, I've been carefully watching their IM program though and it seems like they are still keeping DOs in there. Their NSX residency just received initial accred so technically they are already an ACGME program. It will be interesting to see who they will take for this upcoming year.

In the case of LIJ it fully converted to the NRMP match and so DOs would have to apply through that and forego the AOA match. I just feel that even if the program was open to taking DOs they probably didn't see that many applying. You would need a wheelbarrow to carry around the cajones necessary to skip the AOA match the NS.

I just hope a lot of these programs make it that are in the pre-accred stage. The more programs that are familiar and comfortable with considering DOs the better. I don't even care if they prefer them, I just ultimately want a fair shake.

 

[68PGunner]

Not trying to derail thread, just one person needs to answer. How the hell do people find time for research in med school? Is it mostly a summer thing? 3-4th year thing only? Cause all the students I've talked to (1st and 2nd years only) seem to have little to no free time.

You talked to the wrong people.

 

[AlteredScale]

In the case of LIJ it fully converted to the NRMP match and so DOs would have to apply through that and forego the AOA match. I just feel that even if the program was open to taking DOs they probably didn't see that many applying. You would need a wheelbarrow to carry around the cajones necessary to skip the AOA match the NS.

I just hope a lot of these programs make it that are in the pre-accred stage. The more programs that are familiar and comfortable with considering DOs the better. I don't even care if they prefer them, I just ultimately want a fair shake.

Yeah I def see what you're saying and in a way, that ENT info I showed you of the AOA programs that went unfilled almost make me wonder if DOs aren't even applying to them in the same numbers for fear of competition or something.

I hope as many get through as possible as well.

 

[JB50]

DO's typically want to treat the whole body, not just three parts of it.

Yeah I def see what you're saying and in a way, that ENT info I showed you of the AOA programs that went unfilled almost make me wonder if DOs aren't even applying to them in the same numbers for fear of competition or something.

I hope as many get through as possible as well.

Lol

 

[MADD!!!]

Honestly I don't think this question bears much fruit because we're not even talking about how competitive the DO applicants for AOA ENT spots are. If you see the average COMLEX for ENT it's pretty high!!!! Now here's a funny scenario:

Take student A who is a DO student who only took COMLEX, got a 700 and applied to AOA formerly ENT program. Student B took USMLE and got 255 (or equivalent of 700 in USMLE) and a PD needs to choose one. Will COMLEX be preferred?!! How can a DO PD who's never used USMLE to rank their applicants use it now to compare an MD to a DO who never took USMLE?

@Goro

 

[MADD!!!]

Kinda side tracked there, but point being I think current DO's matching ENT have a comparably high COMLEX score on the COMLEX end, so not sure really how many spots will be lost so to say.

 

[MADD!!!]

AND we can be optimistic and hope that more MD PD's will consider DO applicants now that the merger is in effect? Which may theoretically increase the number of spots for DO's? Or ultimately (and this is fairest) judge each applicant w/o MD DO bias but rather on personal merit regardless of title.

 

[Goro]

I think it will be easier to predict who will win the 2020 presidential election

Honestly I don't think this question bears much fruit because we're not even talking about how competitive the DO applicants for AOA ENT spots are. If you see the average COMLEX for ENT it's pretty high!!!! Now here's a funny scenario:

Take student A who is a DO student who only took COMLEX, got a 700 and applied to AOA formerly ENT program. Student B took USMLE and got 255 (or equivalent of 700 in USMLE) and a PD needs to choose one. Will COMLEX be preferred?!! How can a DO PD who's never used USMLE to rank their applicants use it now to compare an MD to a DO who never took USMLE?

@Goro

 

[JB50]

You're gonna match what you're gonna match. Im optimistic due to the merger. It's obvious at the best DO schools that the grade trends are starting to be pretty much the same albeit a tiny bit lower in admissions stts. Nowadays lower MCAT = DO. That's it.

The older PD's with DO bias will soon be replaced with more modern thinking.

 

[Goro]

The modern bias of PDs thinking DOs are poorly trained from their clinical rotations will take a bit longer to fix, until all the COMs clean up their act and abandon preceptor-based clinical training.

The older PD's with DO bias will soon be replaced with more modern thinking.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

How can a DO PD who's never used USMLE to rank their applicants use it now to compare an MD to a DO who never took USMLE?

Eh I think that's wishful thinking, a good number (but not all by any means) of these surgical PDs are MDs and they will have no issues interpreting USMLE. Also if a DO PD really has no clue how to interpret the USMLE (I am skeptical of this) then percentiles still exist.

 

[JB50]

 

[AlteredScale]

if a DO PD really has no clue how to interpret the USMLE (I am skeptical of this) then percentiles still exist.

Yep, it's just a filter on the PD's ERAS tool that stratifies the applicants based on their board scores either through percentiles or the actual score.

 

[acapnial]

Honestly I don't think this question bears much fruit because we're not even talking about how competitive the DO applicants for AOA ENT spots are. If you see the average COMLEX for ENT it's pretty high!!!! Now here's a funny scenario:

Take student A who is a DO student who only took COMLEX, got a 700 and applied to AOA formerly ENT program. Student B took USMLE and got 255 (or equivalent of 700 in USMLE) and a PD needs to choose one. Will COMLEX be preferred?!! How can a DO PD who's never used USMLE to rank their applicants use it now to compare an MD to a DO who never took USMLE?

@Goro

The comlex is probably going to be a lot less meaningful by the time you match