Is Health Care a Right or a Privilege

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Is Health Care a Right or a Privilege?

  • Right

    Votes: 83 44.9%
  • Privilege

    Votes: 86 46.5%
  • Other

    Votes: 16 8.6%

  • Total voters
    185
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.
I would like you to find me another country where their Universal Healthcare is not ran in some way by the government.

I can't, that's because most other developed countries (Europe, Canada etc.) have socialized economies and cultures. It seems we both agree that a nationalized healthcare system, such as the ones found in these nations and taken over by the government, would be a disaster. That's because, in my opinion, you can't transplant the British or Canadian system here and expect it too work. The host economy would "reject it."

Just because there are no other systems like this doesn't mean we can't implement one.

Oh and by the way http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_health_care . Look at the first line of the definition of UH my friend.

Never cite Wikipedia when you are trying to define something in response to common misconception. It is like citing pre-allo as the all-inclusive guide to medical school admission written by experienced professionals.🙂

Universal: Affecting, concerning, or involving all. All encomapssing.

Healthcare: All of the procedures or methods employed in the field concerned with the delivery of the maintenance/restoration of the health of the body or mind.

Neither one of the definitions mentions the government. If you put the two together in the UH construction, you get "All encompassing delivery of the maintenance/restoration of the health of the body or mind" = Universal Healthcare.

The AMA defines Universal Healthcare as such:
"Universal health care refers to the idea that every American should have access to affordable, high-quality health care."
http://www.amsa.org/uhc/

It's not really a big deal though. People are so used to hearing about Hillary Care etc that they equate UH with socialized medicine. How about this, too avoid confusion I'll say "Universal Coverage" instead.

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That's exactly right—it's Keynesian economics, and it's the antithesis of free market capitalism that our country is founded on.

Are you ****ing kidding me? Did you really resort to this dumbed-down token crap?
What a respectable and thoughtful response.

After my medical education, I will have been trained to be a compassionate and thorough healer. Within this broken system, however, I will have to settle for being those things to those who can pay.
No one said you can't work pro bono or provide your "compassionate healing" at a discounted rate…it's just a rather collectivist assumption to extend this logic to the entire medical profession.
Along with MDs, are nurses, lab techs, rad techs, not to mention hospital cafeteria workers and janitors, expected to perform their job in the healthcare field for the benefit of mankind, regardless of income and autonomy? Physicians have always played an integral role in society, but their conscription for mandatory employment by the State is the result of countries with socialistic leanings advancing the idea that the State is the provider of all our needs.

Furthermore, it is an inherent socialistic principle to assume that the masses will be improved upon with everyone being forced to work towards the goal of equality. Simply because other countries with such leanings purport ‘universal coverage' as the be-all and end-all of healthcare, with the omnipotent State overseeing their care, doesn't mean the United States has to follow suit.

You're right, currently there is no RIGHT to thrive. Within the construct of our prosperity (relative), we CAN make it a right of our citizens though. It is the privilege of every American to be afford his/her neighbor the RIGHT to medical care.

First off, you can't MAKE something a right because YOU believe prosperity should be taken from the haves and distributed to the have-nots. That, my friend, is the core principle of socialism.
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."--Karl Marx

Second, saying it is "privilege" of Americans to "afford his/her neighbor the RIGHT to medical care" makes no sense. You can't FORCE someone to take privilege in something, especially if it is against their will, but more importantly, your rights are not "granted" to you by your neighbor.

Your assumption that because people enter the career path to becoming physicians they simultaneously assume the role of selfless servants working towards nothing but the good of the community and the betterment of mankind is as naïve as it is arrogant.
 
This needs to stop. Not because it's so expensive, although that is part of it, but primarily because it's immoral. It's a policy based upon cannibalism of society's most productive to feed society's most needful. Such self-consumption cannot last.
As instatewaiter hinted at, this depends entirely upon your definition of moral. Some people might agree with you. Some people would say that turning a dying child away, just because he doesn't have a credit card or because he comes from a poor family, is equally as or more immoral. In fact this is the moral dilemma regarding the issue at hand. I'll explain this later as it relates to the end of your post.
1. Arguing from authority is lame. There are many scientists who believe in intelligent design; can I merely refer to their existence in a debate to make the case against evolution? I am sure there are economists that are liberal enough to suggest we might save money by going UHC, but they aren't telling you something...
Would you rather me just make stuff up and argue a stance based on my political ideology? I didn’t feel like writing a book explaining why our economy is in the crap-hole because of all this, so I cited authority. If you think that is lame so be it.
Just so you know; I don't believe everything I hear. I've read a lot of positions by economists and businessmen, liberal and fiscally conservative alike. Some I agree with and some I don't. I am a skeptical person and I don't let the media, politics, or any one person force feed me anything (It seems we are a lot alike in this regard). To get to the position I hold now I've had to second guess a lot of opinions. But after scrutiny and thinking I came to agree with some of them. I am a fiscal conservative who believes that covering everyone makes sense fiscally, both for me and the general economy. And many professionals agree. You don't have to agree with them too, but I do.
2. In fact, I agree 100% with your economists - it's easy to save money with a UHC system. How? Ration care, just like they do in socialist Europe. You're old? You're a premie baby looking for a chance at life? You have multiple co-morbidities? And coming to a Great Britain near you, you're obese? **** you. We're cutting our losses. Find a private doctor. The government can't afford that MRI! Get in line; we'll just do a bunch of X-Rays and pretend they're as good. That new medication? That new surgical technique? They have not yet been approved.There are no viable alternatives? Then get in line - there's 122 forms to fill out before the Grand Council can even consider approving such radical changes to the System.
For one, do you think the rationing of the things I bolded is any better right now in our current system? In fact, we already have a universal system per se, we just don’t call it that. This universal system we have now rations healthcare just as poorly.
Oh wait; my mistake. The government would NEVER do anything immoral like that... NOT the government. Rationing care away from the young and old? Beuracracy and stagnancy? Sir, have you even seen how smooth the DMV is run? I mean, with wise, moral leaders like George W. Bush and the Clintons, how could the government NOT be good?
We see eye to eye here, we should never let the federal government run healthcare. For three reasons:
1) As you said it would be a bureaucratic nightmare.
2) Who really controls the government? Special interest and lobbying groups do (AKA private pharm and insurance companies). So “de-privatizing” healthcare by simply handing it over to the government is a bit of an oxymoron.
3) The government was never meant to directly control 1/6 of our entire economy.
 
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I for one believe that health care is a privilege that should be payed for just like any other service. I actually believe that the ED treatment some patients receive for free is too much. Our problem, in the US, is that we don't mind seeing patients bleed in the street, that is why so many indigents get free treatment, who in turn make our hard working doctors earn less. America should grow a sack, and tell tell people, "I'm sorry about your diabetes, but you have no money and no insurance, so we are not going to give you any insulin.... and we can't afford to make you comfortable for your transition either." That is why I want to be a doctor. Not to help people...I'm just concerned about my bottom line. It happens in India and Columbia all the time, and these nations seem to be doing just fine. Do you really think we should live like the swine in Canada, Germany, and the UK? This is America and our main right is earning as much as freaggin possible.
 
I find it funny how you imply that there's no easy answer here.
There is no easy answer. I won't break down the rest of your post piece by piece because it is long and all interrelated. But I feel the answer is more complicated for two reasons which you seem to ignore:

1) The aforementioned moral dilemma present in the majority of Americans.
Individual Liberty versus Paternalism. In reality most Americans are torn between both principles. They simply can't choose between their self interest and that of others. All people in this country have at least some sense of individual liberty, the freedom to do what they want to and how they want to. In a way that is part of being American. But in the same manner most also have some sense of altruism, some drive to see that collective help is there for others when they need it. Human beings are by nature social animals, not entirely self-interested.

Even political libertarians, who proudly tout individual liberty, would mostly never set policies that allow for poor children with a preventable disease to go untreated. And most liberals in the country still hold true the ability to make decisions for themselves in some form. The dilemma is present in almost all Americans to some extent; our country itself is contradictory because in it's very founding and subsequent nature it is both paternalistic and libertarian.

I can guess you are a strong libertarian. You feel that each of us is their own person and what everyone does is their own business. You're proposal is to simply make everyone pay for it. If they can't: "Let them eat cake." At the far end of Paternalism, one's proposal would have the fed govt. make the decisions for you in a single payer system, because that would be in the best interest of everybody and insure everyone has equal access. In my opinion, neither would work because of this moral dilemma. It complicates the issue, making seemingly simple solutions, on either side of the spectrum, ineffective. As such, I think you have to compromise between both principles to implement a system that is truely American.

2) The economic consequences when people do not have access to medical care.
There are drastic financial consequences (on both the individual and societal level) when a large portion of the population is uninsured. This is largely due to the common sense that an unhealthy workforce = an unhealthy economy. A huge portion of our uninsured are those in the lower middle, our economy's bread and butter. When that demographic is incapacitated or suffering from a chronic disease and our system is incapable of fixing it, our economy's productivity and efficiency decline. Bad for me, bad for you. Less room to excercise our "individual liberties."

Also, when an uninsured person checks into an ER in a tax supported hospital, the government has to funnel in more taxes. Even worse, the hospital partially covers the cost of uninsured patients by "shifting" it to the general consumer markets. This cost shift is by far much worse than the previous problem. Because we have uninsured in this country, you spend more on everything from a cup of Starbucks to a Ford Taurus, among other serious consequences. And these companies are put at a serious disadvantage to foreign competitiors. If you don't understand how the cost shift works, I can link you to a previous post of mine that explains it.

...


So that's my piece. I think we need a UH system for economic reasons, and I think this system needs to compromise along the lines of this moral dilemna. As such, you need to ensure all people are accountable for their actions and pay for their own medical care in at least some form (like what you describe), but you need to ensure that all people have access and can get treatment when they need to (like what they describe). Tough, but I think it's possible, although it would not come from one of these simple solutions. How would I do that you ask me? I'll tell you tomorrow, I'm exhausted from hittin' the slopes all day.
 
Using the term “universal coverage” does nothing to sanctify the fact that it is a move towards State control of healthcare. Moreover, ensuring that everyone has health insurance does nothing to ensure them ACCESS to care unless 1.) physicians are on board to accept such repayment, which means 2.)they are open to taking new patients.

If you take a look at Massachusetts, the program that Romney instituted did nothing other than put in everyone’s hand a piece of plastic stating that they were insured, not to mention exceeding the state’s budget by $400 million. After the policy was instituted, primary care docs in the greater Boston area had a flood of new patients and many closed their doors. There are bountiful articles on this problem if you scour the internet.

This argument is not, as Rooter frequently implies, about poor children being denied their insulin and life-saving surgeries. The free-market approach to healthcare is not the soulless, immoral opposite of “universal coverage.” For example, programs like SCHIP have been around for years and do their best to offer poor children the medical care they need.

The problem is when they overstep their bounds, as SCHIP has done…it has gradually increased the income up to which it covers, upwards of $100k in some states. Moreover, once the Fed matches state funds, the state can do whatever it wishes with the money, and can cover whomever it pleases. This is the real concern people should have for socialized medicine: a slow and subtle progress, initially using terms like “universal coverage,” gradually covering more and more people until eventually the top 1% of income earners, the people in the crosshairs of the socialist left, are subsidizing the healthcare of the other 99%. This is not an American principle, nor is realistic to assume that having “universal coverage” will guarantee every man, woman and child will benefit from the strength of modern medicine. Like I and others have suggested on this thread, the certain result of government intervention is RATIONING.

Making the argument that, “Until we physically insure everyone, poor children and the destitute will continue to suffer the short end of the free market stick,” is at best a farce, or more accurately a position propagated by ignorance of the current avenues people have to receive medical care. The only guarantee “universal coverage” carries is the astronomical cost, which leads to rationing.
 
The problem is when they overstep their bounds, as SCHIP has done…it has gradually increased the income up to which it covers, upwards of $100k in some states.

Maximum income for SCHIP is 300% of Federal Poverty line (20,000 for a family of 4, being generous) which comes to about $60,000. That's not a lot of money to raise a family. If a child in a family such as this needs an operation or has diabetes, the debt is unsustainable.
 
Maximum income for SCHIP is 300% of Federal Poverty line (20,000 for a family of 4, being generous) which comes to about $60,000. That's not a lot of money to raise a family. If a child in a family such as this needs an operation or has diabetes, the debt is unsustainable.

Ok, so New York legislators denied the request to raise it to 400%, closer to $86k.
And I disagree that $60k is not enough. That might not help you on the coast, but my parents raised a family of 6 on less than that for two decades. The midwest is a little more hospitable.

Either way, my point is that the program is called state CHILDRENS insurance program, completely separate from medicaid..it's not meant to sustain a family.
Food for thought that people frequently disregard:

1.) allowing small businesses and individuals the ability to make tax deductions to the the tune of tens of thousands of dollars, thereby lowering the tax bracket they fall into and allowing them to keep the difference. This option is currently only open to large companies that provide insurance plans for their employees, plans that the insurance companies normally sell to businesses at a discounted rate.

2.) allowing individuals and families to purchase plans from other states. There are so many beaurocratic stipulations (created by state governments) that dictate what insurance plans must cover it unecessarily drives up the costs. New Jersey is a prime example.

And don't forget that the "45 million" uninsured that people so often quote is less than halfed when taken into account A.) people who qualify for state/federal programs but don't sign up, B.) people in between jobs, C.) people who flat out don't desire to purchase insurance though could easily afford it, and C.) illegals.
 
Never cite Wikipedia when you are trying to define something in response to common misconception. It is like citing pre-allo as the all-inclusive guide to medical school admission written by experienced professionals.🙂

Universal: Affecting, concerning, or involving all. All encomapssing.

Healthcare: All of the procedures or methods employed in the field concerned with the delivery of the maintenance/restoration of the health of the body or mind.

Yes universal coverage is a much better term. UH has been used to always mean government involvement unfortunately.

Either way we both agree on many points, namely, I would be willing to have universal coverage if it could be worked out properly. But again, this is unlikely due to government involvement always ruining programs with its inefficiency. The best of all worlds would be to somehow increase competition and decrease costs of plans overall.
 
Within this broken system, however, I will have to settle for being those things to those who can pay.

No, you can do pro bono work until your heart is content or your home is in foreclosure. I plan to do plenty of pro bono work, but it will be on my own terms. You've got a cell phone & cable tv, no free healthcare from me. Your an honest hardworking American who has real problems affording coverage, it will be my pleasure to treat you for free sir.

What's next? government subsidized gym memberships and in home chef's? government issued cars for all? Where does this nanny state spiral end? Entitlements are not the answer.
 
PRIVILEGE - To those who are PREPARED should receive it. Is food a right or a privilege? It's a privilege to those who will work for it. Health care is the same way. The "Nanny" state has got to go.
 
This is the real concern people should have for socialized medicine: a slow and subtle progress, initially using terms like “universal coverage,” gradually covering more and more people until eventually the top 1% of income earners, the people in the crosshairs of the socialist left, are subsidizing the healthcare of the other 99%.

Speculation at best. Scare tactics at worst.
 
No, you can do pro bono work until your heart is content or your home is in foreclosure. I plan to do plenty of pro bono work, but it will be on my own terms. You've got a cell phone & cable tv, no free healthcare from me. Your an honest hardworking American who has real problems affording coverage, it will be my pleasure to treat you for free sir.

What's next? government subsidized gym memberships and in home chef's? government issued cars for all? Where does this nanny state spiral end? Entitlements are not the answer.

LOL. I think that gym memberships and home chefs are on a different plane than giving me biannual checkups and prescription coverage so that my heart can keep beating. :laugh:
 
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LOL. I think that gym memberships and home chefs are on a different plane than giving me biannual checkups and prescription coverage so that my heart can keep beating. :laugh:

It starts with welfare & food stamps, since everyone has a right to have a place to sleep and a right to eat......for free. If UH is implemented, then some politicians will just move onto some other entitlement to get the voters to pull the lever for them. Everyone has a right to prosper, and you can't prosper in America without a car. Govt. subsidizied cars for everyone! Let's not even speculate on what else they'll come up with to give away for free.

You talk about this cheap UH w/ free biannual checkups & prescriptions, but the same people that didn't have catastrophic insurance are not going to buy a policy in the future. They'll still be walking/being pulled into the ER with a variety of expensive issues that the hospital will still have to treat on the taxpayers dime. UH will simply funnel the unecessary ER visits to PC docs, but the simple, cheap UH plan you keep describing won't even come close to fixing the problem. Do you really think a free bi-annual checkup is going to greatly reduce the amount of people that eat crap and then have heart attacks? ....... in your words. LOL. :laugh:
 
The left loves to use the image of a poor person who is down on their luck but both frugal and hardworking and deserves the help of the state to provide for him.

The right loves to use the image of a lazy, slovenly poor person who saps the state of resources while adding nothing in return.

The reality probably lies somewhere in between.

I can tell you that if you go to the ghettos of Richmond you will see plenty of brand new cars with thousand dollar rims owned by people on food stamps. Go to the really poor inner city schools and you will see kids wearing the new $125 sneakers. This is not unique to Richmond. Of course there are many who were dealt a bad hand but there is always some portion of that which can be attributed to bad choices or irresponsibility.
 
Personally I think it is ridiculous for you to be allowed to get any gov't help if you didnt finish high school/ dont have a GED. There is only 1 reason that I can think of to excuse a normal person who didnt finish high school: they had to work to provide income for their family. So under my system incomming HS freshman would be required to finish high school (all those before grandfathered in) or would forfeit the opportunity to get gov't welfare or medicare. Each senior would have to sit for a final exam (easier than SOL) to make sure that they had attained a proper level of education and protect against teachers just passing kids.

Gov't work programs or training programs would still be open to those who didnt finish high school. We dont want to keep back anyone who wants to improve themselves but we dont want to give handouts to anyone who has demonstrated laziness. Those who had to drop out b/c of financial difficulty of their family would be exempt from this rule.

So if you are going to handicap your skill set by dropping out you are going to reap what you sow. However, if you made a good effort (the metric is finishing HS) and got the shaft then you are eligible for gov't aid.

But you might say these consequences are too severe for someone who is 16 to make. Well I respond that if they realize that they made a mistake they can always sit for the GED and qualify for Gov't aid.

This will really solve the divide between the L and R. The Right will keep all those 'lazy bums' off of the gov't programs and the Left will provide for the hard working diligent mother of 3 who is working 2 jobs to make ends meet. And, in the end you will probably have a more intelligent constituency.

PS the mentally incapable (******ed) are excused as well.

PPS- this rule does not apply to WIC. Not trying to handicap kids b/c mom is a lazy bum.
 
Personally I think it is ridiculous for you to be allowed to get any gov't help if you didnt finish high school/ dont have a GED. There is only 1 reason that I can think of to excuse a normal person who didnt finish high school: they had to work to provide income for their family. So under my system incomming HS freshman would be required to finish high school (all those before grandfathered in) or would forfeit the opportunity to get gov't welfare or medicare. Each senior would have to sit for a final exam (easier than SOL) to make sure that they had attained a proper level of education and protect against teachers just passing kids.

Gov't work programs or training programs would still be open to those who didnt finish high school. We dont want to keep back anyone who wants to improve themselves but we dont want to give handouts to anyone who has demonstrated laziness. Those who had to drop out b/c of financial difficulty of their family would be exempt from this rule.

So if you are going to handicap your skill set by dropping out you are going to reap what you sow. However, if you made a good effort (the metric is finishing HS) and got the shaft then you are eligible for gov't aid.

But you might say these consequences are too severe for someone who is 16 to make. Well I respond that if they realize that they made a mistake they can always sit for the GED and qualify for Gov't aid.

This will really solve the divide between the L and R. The Right will keep all those 'lazy bums' off of the gov't programs and the Left will provide for the hard working diligent mother of 3 who is working 2 jobs to make ends meet. And, in the end you will probably have a more intelligent constituency.

PS the mentally incapable (******ed) are excused as well.

PPS- this rule does not apply to WIC. Not trying to handicap kids b/c mom is a lazy bum.

I'm actually OK with this, but I will reread this and think about it after my exam 🙂
 
I don't think you have any more of a right to health care than you do to food or shelter. You need food a lot more regularly than health care, but I don't see any candidates pushing for universal grocery coverage. The "right" to health care only extends so far as to ensure that no one is denied health care based on their race/gender/etc. Like JonnyG said, people are more willing to pay their plumber than their doctor.

Go into medicine for the right reasons, and not for capitalism upon human lives.
So you'll be volunteering your time?
 
Do you think millions of people are walking around with enough money in their pockets to pay for coverage, but choosing to spend it on clothes, shoes and cars?
Yes.

Yes, there are some who milk the system, but for every one of them there are 10 single mothers who are working 3 jobs just to be able to afford rent and food for her kids.
Ah, naivete. The ratio of people milking the system to those who need help is much higher.

She doesn't have any coverage because she makes too much to qualify for medicaid, but none of her employers will cover her. What is she left to do? Are we just supposed to forget about her and her kids? What about people our age who just graduate college and can no longer be covered by their parents, but can't for the life of them find a job with benefits? We can't leave all these people in the dark.
Step 1 - more people need to make better decisions in life. You won't need a liver transplant if you don't drink so much. However, I'm not opposed to a safety net for those who truly need help, but it shouldn't be the first line of defense.
 
I don't think you have any more of a right to health care than you do to food or shelter. You need food a lot more regularly than health care, but I don't see any candidates pushing for universal grocery coverage.B] The "right" to health care only extends so far as to ensure that no one is denied health care based on their race/gender/etc. Like JonnyG said, people are more willing to pay their plumber than their doctor.


Ever heard of food stamps!? How about WIC checks?
 
Ever heard of food stamps!? How about WIC checks?
No!!! I haven't!!!!



Don't get so excited. It's an entirely different animal, and it's akin to simply providing primary care to those who can't afford it, as opposed to steak and caviar.
 
Some interesting factoids I pulled from the paper recently:

1.) Romneycare is expected to reach $1.35 BILLION in annual costs in 2011, up from $158 million today.

2.) The census bureau says 38% of the uninsured earned >$50,000 in 2006, 19% earned >$75,000, and 29% earned LESS than $25,000, which means they most likely qualify for State programs.

3.) According to the ex-First Lady, in order to ensure "'universal coverage...we will have an enforcement mechanism' that might include 'you know, going after people's wages.'"

In other words, as it was so aptly put, "...the individual mandate is really a government mandate that requires brute force plus huge subsidies to get anywhere near its goal of universal coverage."

Sounds like a great plan, Maximus...
 
Even political libertarians, who proudly tout individual liberty, would mostly never set policies that allow for poor children with a preventable disease to go untreated. And most liberals in the country still hold true the ability to make decisions for themselves in some form. The dilemma is present in almost all Americans to some extent; our country itself is contradictory because in it's very founding and subsequent nature it is both paternalistic and libertarian.


How is our founding paternalistic? I can't think of any examples of our founding fathers coddling anyone, I'm not saying there aren't examples, but I'm unaware of any off the top of my head.

Many libertarians, like myself, resolve this conflict by resting comfortably in the design of the system being a federalist republic and these issues can easily be allowed to be addressed on the State level. I have little issue with social initiatives, as long as they are on the state level.
 
How is our founding paternalistic? I can't think of any examples of our founding fathers coddling anyone, I'm not saying there aren't examples, but I'm unaware of any off the top of my head.

Every government is paternalistic in some form. The fact that we even have a government which defines/protects individual freedoms is a form of paternalism.

But even leaving political philosophy behind, you can find practical examples of paternalism in our founding structure, it's just harder to find and you have to look beyond the context of modern social programs. Take for say, the constitutional requierment that all the states "must maintain a republican form of government." If Deleware, now or just after the country was born, decided to instate a royal family, the federal government would intervene. It wouldn't matter if every single person in Deleware thought that a monarchy is the better choice for them in the future. Even with 100% of their heart, mind, consent, and all the individual freedoms they (or the state) may have, the feds would step in and say "no, we know what is best for you and this is not it."


Many libertarians, like myself, resolve this conflict by resting comfortably in the design of the system being a federalist republic and these issues can easily be allowed to be addressed on the State level. I have little issue with social initiatives, as long as they are on the state level.
I'm all with you here, but I still don't see how this resolves the dilemna on an individual basis. Regardless of if a social program is instituted at the state level or not, from person to person this dilemna still exists. "How much control do we give the state and how much to we retain for ourselves?" "How much do we let our state choose what is best for all of us and to what extent can I choose what is best for me?"
 
The people coming together… and transfering part of their individual soverignty to a unified republic, which would make certain decisions with it's allocated power "for the good of everyone," … transfering [rights] to the states …

But the premise of your argument is entirely wrong!!! People don't "transfer part of their individual sovereignty to a unified republic"...that's asinine, not to mention an oxymoron that “individual sovereignty” is something transferrable!

No one relinquishes their rights for the “greater good,” and it’s a testament to your lack of non-science education that you’d even assume such a concept. The State is NOT the arbiter of individual sovereignty. My good God, have you read the Declaration of Independence, or for that matter the Constitution?!?

Does it say, “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their GOVERNMENT with certain inalienable Rights. . ."?


If Deleware…decided to instate a royal family, the federal government would intervene. … the feds would step in and say "no, we know what is best for you and this is not it."

The “Feds” wouldn’t step in because “father knows best,” they would step in because our Constitution strictly adheres to the notion of a federal republic, not a monarchy—that’s constitutional law, not paternalism.

It never ceases to amaze me how pathetic of an understanding people have of the principles their own country is founded upon, their ignorance being filled with collectivist thinking inspired by progressive politics and hopeless utopian ideals.
 
People don't "transfer part of their individual sovereignty to a unified republic"...that's asinine, not to mention an oxymoron that "individual sovereignty" is something transferrable!

When I wrote the "unified republic," I was referring to the individual states transferring a portion of their soverignty to the federal government. My apologies if I didn't make that more clear in my sentance construction. All I was trying to do was explain it in relation to the position Hernandez wrote about regarding state and federal govt, and apparently it only served to confuse my point. Okay then, I agree that it was unclear so just for you, I'll remove all but the first sentance, because that is the important part and my point.

No one relinquishes their rights for the "greater good,"

I can think of several examples right now. Child molesters are not forced to relinquish their rights for the greater good? That is more than "no one." Correct me if I interpret this in the wrong way, did you mean something else with this statement?

and it's a testament to your lack of non-science education that you'd even assume such a concept.

In your own words: "What a respectful and thoughtful response."

The State is NOT the arbiter of individual sovereignty. My good God, have you read the Declaration of Independence, or for that matter the Constitution?!?

Does it say, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their GOVERNMENT with certain inalienable Rights. . ."?

I will once again state what I already have. The fact that those rights are defined/protected in the constitution is the philisophical argument that even our government has a degree of paternalism. Thanks for pointing this out. And yes I have read both documents many times.

The "Feds" wouldn't step in because "father knows best," they would step in because our Constitution strictly adheres to the notion of a federal republic, not a monarchy—that's constitutional law, not paternalism.

I don't care if it says that on the constitution or a napkin. The decision to include it was made on behalf of others because of the premise that it is for their own good. That is paternalism. It is irrelevant whether that premise is defined by constitutional law or not. In fact law can be quite "paternalistic" as it often arises from paternalism. You're not thinking in terms of political theory.

It never ceases to amaze me how pathetic of an understanding people have of the principles their own country is founded upon, their ignorance being filled with collectivist thinking inspired by progressive politics and hopeless utopian ideals.

You are merely just spitting up useless rhetoric. I am neither a collectivist nor a liberal. Nor do I think universal healthcare or paternalism for that matter will spur a utopia. I know the principles this country was founded upon. All I was doing was pointing out a side of political theory and explain why I believe, in its nature, our government has this ethical duality.

I'm not implying that you are doing this, but personal attacks only make you look like you are just upset that your agenda has been damaged in some way. There are more constructive ways to respond to my opinion, even if you think I am flat out wrong.
 
Some interesting factoids I pulled from the paper recently:

1.) Romneycare is expected to reach $1.35 BILLION in annual costs in 2011, up from $158 million today.

2.) The census bureau says 38% of the uninsured earned >$50,000 in 2006, 19% earned >$75,000, and 29% earned LESS than $25,000, which means they most likely qualify for State programs.

3.) According to the ex-First Lady, in order to ensure "'universal coverage...we will have an enforcement mechanism' that might include 'you know, going after people's wages.'"

In other words, as it was so aptly put, "...the individual mandate is really a government mandate that requires brute force plus huge subsidies to get anywhere near its goal of universal coverage."

Sounds like a great plan, Maximus...

Ok, technically I am on your side, but I would like supporting links with the information you bring up. Just saying you read studies helps none of us, I would like to see they were done by independent industry, not just John McCains political commitee...


Either way if you are for Socialized healthcare or the other, we can all agree the government ruins everything. Putting it in the governments hands only seems to destroy any program. It will end up being like the educational system...we all know public education is the way to go these days...
 
Ok, technically I am on your side, but I would like supporting links with the information you bring up. Just saying you read studies helps none of us, I would like to see they were done by independent industry, not just John McCains political commitee...


Either way if you are for Socialized healthcare or the other, we can all agree the government ruins everything. Putting it in the governments hands only seems to destroy any program. It will end up being like the educational system...we all know public education is the way to go these days...
Taken from the WSJ editorial page...it's free now...WSJ.com/opinion.
 
I can think of several examples right now. Child molesters are not forced to relinquish their rights for the greater good? That is more than "no one." Correct me if I interpret this in the wrong way, did you mean something else with this statement?



Certain groups of offenders lose certain rights (though are guaranteed others), but this is not something they do voluntarily simply because they're child molesters, or homicidal maniacs, or whoever., their rights are stripped as a punishment after being caught. The point was, people (your average law-abiding citizens) don't voluntarily relinquish their rights for the greater good because 'society' calls them to do so.
 
Basic health care is a right............ie emergency life saving Tx, Abx, so forth. Convenience and speed are not. Whether people want to admit it or not, in this country we all are selfish and want things right now. We could never run on socialized medicine. I would give people 2 weeks of finding out that when you cut my pay I drastically cut my hours before there would be an uprising. I'm all for helping the poor and needy, and think it is our duty to do so, but look at the people telling you they can't afford health care right before they walk out of your office and then go smoke two packs a day and drink a case a week. Nobody in this country should have to work for free. Next time you get groceries go tell the cashier you are only going to pay 28% of your bill, and that the $10 they want up front you just can't pay right now (or ever), I may be mistaken but in most states that is called stealing and you get to spend time with the men and women in blue. This topic will always be debated, but I'm a firm believer in this: If you will pay hundreds or thousands of dollars to watch a professional athlete score a touchdown or hit a home-run, then why shouldn't you pay well to keep you alive?

My two cents as well (which has changed drastically from medical student to intern) just wait till you take call🙂
:laugh:
 
Yep. Notice in post #163, the guy is laughing in my face about how ridiculous and "on another plane" a gym membership being govt subsidized is. How ironic.

Of course, when the public elects this guy into office, its no surprise the results aren't exactly brilliant.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Bcq1Zm25k8g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMjG2s6UOaw

It is a joke that we are subsidizing gym memberships, but if you think about it, it may promote better health. We subsidize a lot of crap. on a state level, that might not be a dumb thing. Certainly NOT on a federal level.

Certainly more useful than 500 dollar income tax refund checks a few years back...
 
I have to disagree with you a bit. First it's not immoral. It's charity. Furthermore, in times of depression, it is the use of the 'most productive' to prop up the 'needful' that prevents the major downturns. Compare the number and length of depressions we have had since this shift in fiscal policy with those before. You will see that the depressions are less severe and are shorter.

I am a fiscal conservative but even I see the value of some of these programs.

It is NOT charity when it's FORCED by the government. You didn't participate in an act of charity when some poor, homeless chap put a gun to your head and said 'your money or your life'... and I am not 'giving to charity' when the federal government garnishes my hard-earned wages to provide hand-outs that I don't agree with to vast numbers of people - all against my will.

Charity requires freely giving ones money or time to another; being forced to give makes it coercion or thievery.
 
For one, do you think the rationing of the things I bolded is any better right now in our current system?

I put a whole paragraph in there about how a patient and his or her entire family can make decisions about rationing care - that's appropriate. And that's going to happen de facto when patients and families pay for their own medical care.

In fact, we already have a universal system per se, we just don’t call it that. This universal system we have now rations healthcare just as poorly.

You're talking in circles. I told you I reject the system we have now, it's version of rationing of care, and it's version of universal coverage, then I outlined the start of a solution.

We see eye to eye here, we should never let the federal government run healthcare. For three reasons:
1) As you said it would be a bureaucratic nightmare.
2) Who really controls the government? Special interest and lobbying groups do (AKA private pharm and insurance companies). So “de-privatizing” healthcare by simply handing it over to the government is a bit of an oxymoron.
3) The government was never meant to directly control 1/6 of our entire economy.

Yes. But just remember: while you personally may be smart enough to recognize putting the uncontrollable, power-usurping machine that is government in charge of the health care industry as financer and thus master is a terrible, short-sighted idea, most UHC advocates DO want to put the government in charge.
 
There is no easy answer. I won’t break down the rest of your post piece by piece because it is long and all interrelated. But I feel the answer is more complicated for two reasons which you seem to ignore:

1) The aforementioned moral dilemma present in the majority of Americans.
Individual Liberty versus Paternalism. In reality most Americans are torn between both principles. They simply can’t choose between their self interest and that of others. All people in this country have at least some sense of individual liberty, the freedom to do what they want to and how they want to. In a way that is part of being American. But in the same manner most also have some sense of altruism, some drive to see that collective help is there for others when they need it. Human beings are by nature social animals, not entirely self-interested.

Agreed that people struggle with this issue. However, you're framing of the problem is an attempt to force me into choosing between the left and the right, the yes and the no, or some other version of the Dichotomy. But I am going above that... an individual who pursues his or her own best interests while maintaining the principle 'I will never ask anyone to live for me, and I will never allow myself to live for anyone else', IS what makes a strong society. Cannibalizing the strong against their will to provide hand-outs to the weak ultimately hurts the strong AND the weak, and thus all of society.

I do not advocate for doctors to act in their own self-interests and perform extra procedures, or take kick-backs from pharm companies, because that's ultimately NOT in their best interest. I advocate for a rational approach to self-interest, with the only masters being rationality, honor and integrity. I believe that when individuals are empowered, accountable, and believe 'it's up to me', all of society benefits. Right now our country is sucking up finite resources at a staggering rate; we are cannibalizing the country built by our grandfathers in the 20th century. This is untenable.

As people live longer and baby boomers retire, the population will age dramatically; there are going to be more people living on government hand-outs than middle class workers can provide for. Socialism will be a quaint little paradise for the decades it survives, then we implode as the middle class is broken.

Even political libertarians, who proudly tout individual liberty, would mostly never set policies that allow for poor children with a preventable disease to go untreated. And most liberals in the country still hold true the ability to make decisions for themselves in some form. The dilemma is present in almost all Americans to some extent; our country itself is contradictory because in it's very founding and subsequent nature it is both paternalistic and libertarian.

I can guess you are a strong libertarian. You feel that each of us is their own person and what everyone does is their own business. You’re proposal is to simply make everyone pay for it. If they can’t: “Let them eat cake.” At the far end of Paternalism, one’s proposal would have the fed govt. make the decisions for you in a single payer system, because that would be in the best interest of everybody and insure everyone has equal access. In my opinion, neither would work because of this moral dilemma. It complicates the issue, making seemingly simple solutions, on either side of the spectrum, ineffective. As such, I think you have to compromise between both principles to implement a system that is truely American.

2) The economic consequences when people do not have access to medical care.

There are drastic financial consequences (on both the individual and societal level) when a large portion of the population is uninsured. This is largely due to the common sense that an unhealthy workforce = an unhealthy economy.

I advocate for individual responsibility, and what better example of individual responsibility is there than purchasing insurance? I have no problem with governments and activists pushing for people to plan for their future and put some of their money towards health insurance.

A huge portion of our uninsured are those in the lower middle, our economy’s bread and butter. When that demographic is incapacitated or suffering from a chronic disease and our system is incapable of fixing it, our economy’s productivity and efficiency decline. Bad for me, bad for you. Less room to excercise our "individual liberties."

Also, when an uninsured person checks into an ER in a tax supported hospital, the government has to funnel in more taxes. Even worse, the hospital partially covers the cost of uninsured patients by “shifting” it to the general consumer markets. This cost shift is by far much worse than the previous problem. Because we have uninsured in this country, you spend more on everything from a cup of Starbucks to a Ford Taurus, among other serious consequences. And these companies are put at a serious disadvantage to foreign competitiors. If you don’t understand how the cost shift works, I can link you to a previous post of mine that explains it.

Thanks, but I it's clear. However, you are still trying to force me into saying, 'well, we already have a de facto universal system that we all agree sucks, we might as well move to a de jure universal system that we believe will be better'. I will NOT say that. I reject the de jure, de facto, de crapo universal systems - all of them.

So that's my piece. I think we need a UH system for economic reasons, and I think this system needs to compromise along the lines of this moral dilemna. As such, you need to ensure all people are accountable for their actions and pay for their own medical care in at least some form (like what you describe), but you need to ensure that all people have access and can get treatment when they need to (like what they describe). Tough, but I think it's possible, although it would not come from one of these simple solutions. How would I do that you ask me? I'll tell you tomorrow, I'm exhausted from hittin' the slopes all day.

When you get the chance. 🙂
 
This cannot be maintained. Stop the cannibalization of our country's infrastructure and wealth.

http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/news/20080214/1a_lede14_dom.art.htm

"The cost of government benefits for seniors soared to a record $27,289 per senior in 2007"

"About 35% of the federal budget is spent on senior benefits, up from 32% in 2004."

"The federal government spent $952 billion in 2007 on elderly benefits"

"Medical costs are the biggest reason."


"The senior boom, however, starts big time in 2011, when the first baby boomers - 79 million people born between 1946 and 1964 - turn 65 and qualify for Medicare health insurance."


...


"The cost of senior benefits is equal to $10,673 for every non-senior household."

So my wife and I are paying a huge portion of our meager income for your Granny to rot in a nursing home and receive ambulance trips, MRIs and consults after she's been found down for the millionth time.

*@&#* #*&#*#
 
This cannot be maintained. Stop the cannibalization of our country's infrastructure and wealth.

http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/news/20080214/1a_lede14_dom.art.htm

"The cost of government benefits for seniors soared to a record $27,289 per senior in 2007"

"About 35% of the federal budget is spent on senior benefits, up from 32% in 2004."

"The federal government spent $952 billion in 2007 on elderly benefits"

"Medical costs are the biggest reason."


"The senior boom, however, starts big time in 2011, when the first baby boomers - 79 million people born between 1946 and 1964 - turn 65 and qualify for Medicare health insurance."


...


"The cost of senior benefits is equal to $10,673 for every non-senior household."

So my wife and I are paying a huge portion of our meager income for your Granny to rot in a nursing home and receive ambulance trips, MRIs and consults after she's been found down for the millionth time.

*@&#* #*&#*#

Cry me a river. You want to play God and tell her its time to die?! Go f* yourself.
 
I think we should transport all the seniors that are taking up so much of our money to Alaska and put them on an Ice Flow and leave them to die like the Eskimos used to do. Eskimos are native americans so they are really in touch with nature which means what they do is good.

Sure it may cost the same $20K to transport them up there but at least we would be spending money on solving the problem rather than perpetuating it by spending it on life-saving health care.
 
Where's Jonathan Swift when you need a good satire.
 
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