Is it a norm for externships to not let externs scrub in? I'm confused..........

[Aresnebula]

So I am in this program where I haven't scrubbed into any of the cases and I just stand there "shadowing" in the OR. It is getting really frustrating because my upperclassmen told me all these great things about externships and how they let you do stuff etc. but so far, this program I am in hasn't let me do anything in the OR. I cannot blame the residents because they always try to get me to scrub in but the attendings always make excuses such as "too many people" etc. I am at a point where I don't think I will even rank this program but I just want to make sure that I am not overreacting to this matter. It is really disappointing because I prepare for the cases the night before only to be let down each and every time. I would really appreciate your advice.

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[heybrother]

So I am in this program where I haven't scrubbed into any of the cases and I just stand there "shadowing" in the OR. It is getting really frustrating because my upperclassmen told me all these great things about externships and how they let you do stuff etc. but so far, this program I am in hasn't let me do anything in the OR. I cannot blame the residents because they always try to get me to scrub in but the attendings always make excuses such as "too many people" etc. I am at a point where I don't think I will even rank this program but I just want to make sure that I am not overreacting to this matter. It is really disappointing because I prepare for the cases the night before only to be let down each and every time. I would really appreciate your advice.

It unfortunately happens way more than anyone wants to talk about. Try this on for size. I visited 2 programs that generated almost no surgery the entire time I was with them. It was painful. Don't stop prepping for cases. Keep finding new sources to read. That isn't wasted time regardless of what happens. Theoretically the real question is - how are the residents treated and what are they doing. That said, ****ting on students shows a broken program mentality.

 

[wakaflocka88]

Ya normal. I rotated at PSL and pretty much was a wall flower. But from watching I still learned a lot and wrote down as much as I can remember from every observed case. It still helped me in the end.

 

[hailey6565]

So I am in this program where I haven't scrubbed into any of the cases and I just stand there "shadowing" in the OR. It is getting really frustrating because my upperclassmen told me all these great things about externships and how they let you do stuff etc. but so far, this program I am in hasn't let me do anything in the OR. I cannot blame the residents because they always try to get me to scrub in but the attendings always make excuses such as "too many people" etc. I am at a point where I don't think I will even rank this program but I just want to make sure that I am not overreacting to this matter. It is really disappointing because I prepare for the cases the night before only to be let down each and every time. I would really appreciate your advice.

Which program is this? Asking for future reference.

 

[Podophile]

It’s normal for some programs, in fact most programs you don’t really “do” anything except observe, either from the sidelines or the 2nd assist spot. It reduced the coolness factor of the experience, but you’re not going to develop any impressive skills as a student anyway, so pay more attention to the quality of the surgeons, knowledge and confidence of the residents, and the overall training experience. It’s not about you; you can (and need) to learn a lot on your own, and try to decide if the atmosphere will be conducive to you learning effectively.

 

[Feli]

Good advice above. It is sometimes a facility thing (nothing to gain from students scrub in... and too much hassle to do paperwork for ppl there only a short time anyways).

If there are over 2 residents for any forefoot or 3+ for any rearfoot, that's a huge red flag, though. It can be a rare "slow day" with 3 residents scrubbed on Lapidus/Weil or Jones fx a couple times, but beyond that, it's usually a case volume problem. Norm should be 1-2 on bunions, toes, I&D, etc... 1-3 for ankle, recon, etc.

 

[deleted1138023]

Good advice above. It is sometimes a facility thing (nothing to gain from students scrub in... and too much hassle to do paperwork for ppl there only a short time anyways).

If there are over 2 residents for any forefoot or 3+ for any rearfoot, that's a huge red flag, though. It can be a rare "slow day" with 3 residents scrubbed on Lapidus/Weil or Jones fx a couple times, but beyond that, it's usually a case volume problem. Norm should be 1-2 on bunions, toes, I&D, etc... 1-3 for ankle, recon, etc.

2 residents for amps and I&D’s is a red flag lol

 

[CutsWithFury]

Ya normal. I rotated at PSL and pretty much was a wall flower. But from watching I still learned a lot and wrote down as much as I can remember from every observed case. It still helped me in the end.

Same PSL was giant waste of my time as an extern. It's an overrated program in general.

 

[wakaflocka88]

Same PSL was giant waste of my time as an extern. It's an overrated program in general.

Ng and Jacobsen never let the seniors do anything except for retract skin. Total toss up with all the other community docs affiliated with the program. Show up, cut for a few hours and go home. I mean I did learn and memorize an MPJ fusion since I saw so many that month. Most exciting case that month? I recall Stone doing a Chrisman-snook in 40 mins and that was impressive.

 

[CutsWithFury]

Ng and Jacobsen never let the seniors do anything except for retract skin. Total toss up with all the other community docs affiliated with the program. Show up, cut for a few hours and go home. I mean I did learn and memorize an MPJ fusion since I saw so many that month. Most exciting case that month? I recall Stone doing a Chrisman-snook in 40 mins and that was impressive.

Exactly same experience. Ng and Jacobsen don’t let the residents do anything. Toss up between the community docs as well.

PSL only strength is the academics which are rather rigorous but ultimately the attendings do not care if the residents are getting cut time or not.

I spent a month there and worked hard but when it came time for my interview during CRIP one of the attendings started asking me questions on how many mountains there were at certain ski spots in Colorado. I actually got several questions pertaining to skiing in Colorado.

I was PISSED

What a scam

Only in podiatry would something stupid be asked during a residency interview. It’s why podiatry is a joke.

 

[dtrack22]

Exactly same experience. Ng and Jacobsen don’t let the residents do anything. Toss up between the community docs as well.

PSL only strength is the academics which are rather rigorous but ultimately the attendings do not care if the residents are getting cut time or not.

I spent a month there and worked hard but when it came time for my interview during CRIP one of the attendings started asking me questions on how many mountains there were at certain ski spots in Colorado. I actually got several questions pertaining to skiing in Colorado.

I was PISSED

What a scam

Only in podiatry would something stupid be asked during a residency interview. It’s why podiatry is a joke.

The skiing questions were the only ones I got right during my interview. They loved me.

Watching as an extern sucks but it isn’t indicative of the program. Find the one where the residents are most impressive from a surgical skill and confidence standpoint. Don’t worry too much about what you’re allowed to do as a student.

I had fairly miserable student experiences at big name programs, PSL would be one. Swedish and Bay area Kaiser’s would be a few others. Would have still gotten good training at any of them.