Is it fair?

[redicon1]

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I was having an interesting conversation with some friends from Bulgaria, India and the US and wanted to share some of the thoughts. What do you all think?
Basically the issue was this: Is it fair for foreign trained dentists to be licenced in the US WITHOUT completing a two-year international program? Note that this is not just a skill issue since I am sure some (not all given the kind of work I have seen from some coming from 'capitation' colleges in India) are superbly qualified and highly skilled as the best indegenous dentists produced by the US system. It is also a cost issue: my US friend took out 43,000 for his undergrad and another 150-200,000 for his dental school. So in effect he has more than 250K debt to be able to practice in the states. Now is it fair that the society should value differently someone who comes without the debt obligations and start earning right away?
Note that i am not trying to start a war of words but trying to get at a more nuanced argument. Countries like India and Bulgaria have a heavily subsidized medical/dental education system and on top of that there is no requirement like the US to have already done an undergraduate degree (well mostly) before starting dental school. So if we allow someone to practice in the US without having paid equal dues to the system, if you will, then I consider it unfair. I deeply belive in talent and a merit-based system, but I am also looking to develop my views on how this issue is seen by those on the other side of the fence. I do know that folks from other countries have to shell out 150k for completing the international dentist program currently and I am hoping it stays that way. But would you advocate change? And why?

 

[Ann 03]

well wht u say maybe true, but y the discrimination b/w physicians and dentists? medical students here also have huge debts. but physicians frm othercountries dont have go through school. they have residency programs for which they r paid. it isnt fair tht only dentists should go throu all this.

 

[Bond]

well wht u say maybe true, but y the discrimination b/w physicians and dentists? medical students here also have huge debts. but physicians frm othercountries dont have go through school. they have residency programs for which they r paid. it isnt fair tht only dentists should go throu all this.

Ann i think its just a matter of their own need when their would be a shortage of dentist they r going to make it easire for us to get license too.

 

[toothmail]

i second that opinion ann03. they should have a residency-like program for dentists too. dental education is way too expensive here! if it was proportionally this expensive in india, we would have very few candidates with real merit who could afford it !!!!!

 

[RoyalAlbatross]

Hiya. It's a very good point that you brought up, redicon. Physician brothers (and sisters) from outside the US have to pass USMLE1 and 2 (as part of ECFMG) which are harder than National Boards Part 1 and 2. After the exams, they need to apply for and compete to land a spot for a clinical residency in one of the accredited hospital before they can complete USMLE 3. They won't get the license to practice at least until they complete the residency which can go as long as 5 to 6 years.

My 2 cents.

Cheers,

 

[Bond]

Hiya. It's a very good point that you brought up, redicon. Physician brothers (and sisters) from outside the US have to pass USMLE1 and 2 (as part of ECFMG) which are harder than National Boards Part 1 and 2

Hi RoyalAlbatross i disagree with u USMLE is not harder than NBDE infact part 1 for the both exam is same except that they have to give the bahivour sicenses and pharmacology in part-1 too and instead of that 2 subjects we had Dental anatomy.

After the exams, they need to apply for and compete to land a spot for a clinical residency in one of the accredited hospital before they can complete USMLE 3. T

Well i think it is still easier to do than to show liquid assets of 150k and score 90+ and go to school again( and ya get a visa)

They won't get the license to practice at least until they complete the residency which can go as long as 5 to 6 years.

Well most of the residency programm r 3 year until u do a extra year of transitonal but even during that time they do get paid. and after they r done with their residency they can start making 160_180k.
May be u said 5-6 yrs cuz u included some fellowship too,but so many people dont even do the fellowship and yes if u do that u can make 200K-245K like in cardiology. Well my point is that in the whole process u dont really need to go back to go to school or pay them to teach u.

Toothmail and Ann i agree with u both we should have a residency programm or they should start something like CA bench in other states too.

 

[KAJALKIRAN]

ok redicon, i love you for bringing out this interesting topic! am back to this forum after quite some time and enjoying writing this message. firstly, the fact that you are emphatic with the need to obtain additional education before practice, is appreciated; yes! coming to the US just for the heck of making money is certainly not warranted, especially when many can't even live up to the work ethics and fail to satisfy quality assessment and assurance! you are in the US,which has several of the best schools on this planet, so why not atleast get a bit of their education first, before making their money!
am holding nothing against boards like the CA dental boards, who may have indeed become responsible for the several thousand law suits filed against "incompetent dentists"; now there isn't any concrete statistics to show anything about the details of how many of these "incompetent dentists", are foreign trained and how many of them are from the US! but the assumption is certainly left open with a prediliction towards targetting foreign dentists!
YET! the CA board system (and some others) continue(s/d) to thrive! dont you think the economists and policy makers haven't thought of this question much before you did, considering that may be foreign grads are having a cake walk out here, in comparison to several of their own students, who are left in a lurch with their enormous debts?
the answer to all this is one single concept: CAPITALISM!!!
the market is open! anyone can get in and make a meal out of it and thats how this country works and attributes all of its success to! they are more concerned with the amount of money a foreign trained dentist brings to their economy, and the money he or she genereates for this economy, rather than thinking of how much debt their own students have! as a matter of fact, huge amounts of debt by students in one way is good for the economy, thinking in terms of the money consumed/spent, which dentists from other countries hardly spend!
if you look around and see, this is the case in every element of america's economy; if US wasn't so open , do you think today, you could drive a Honda or a Lexus? you would have forced to stick to the American Chevy no matter what (ps: Chevy sucks!)
your point is ethically correct and may be the American student's dental Association could ponder over it during their evening cup of coffee, but the bottom line is that the market is still open..the US still needs (and will continue to need, for the next couple of years.) many foreign dentists;yeah, the market is so not deprived currently that they will make provisions for foreign grads to do residencied directly (like Med Grads) but ofcourse, once the market is saturated, like many other fields currently, then foreign dentists will no more be given a chance, but thats like many, many years away..so all of us can chill till then! 🙂
Kajal Kapoor

 

[dentaldoc]

Ok now if it's only for money, I mean if they consider that it's unfair to allow foreign dentist to practice straight away, well then why can't they take only our money & allow us to practice directly as in california(now that's too is past)
My point is why make us waste 2-4 yrs? 😕

 

[the matrix]

well.. not everybody needs to go to school to feel ready to practice in usa. if you feel you need it - do it. I know some guys who did bench, got license but still wanted to work as hygienists to feel confident and to get experience with patients. these are the guys who have to go to GPR, AEGD or other residency programs.
but why you would loke to go back to dental school and pay that money for things you allready know? dont you have enough hassle with expenses to get here, pay for living while preparing for board exams (most dont have any job) , pay for board exams, etc.?
As dentaldoc said - why to waste 2-4 years in dental school again? its all about money - why not to get extra $100-200K per foreign person? you just have to hide it under nice "reasons".

 

[gsmm]

- why not to get extra $100-200K per foreign person? you just have to hide it under nice "reasons".

I wish it was only money.. its a lotttt of work too..in the clinical work , tests, studying a lot of stuff....its 2 years of heavy load especially for people who already have a lot of responsibilities in life and can no longer give all their time to study only.

if someone gets the kicense through the bench exam he will definetly feel a kind of training to put him in the right way, this is not something embarressing but instead we have to say we went to another country and we have to know first how the system works over here otherwise we shall be in big trouble.