MD & DO Is it possible that SDN is not overexaggerating the decline in EM?

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Redpancreas

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There's hardly a case where some of the stuff that I see on Reddit and SDN affects my day to day life, but recently I've seen several (not 1 or 2, but between 3-5) residents from the intern EM class alone choose to switch to Neurology, Anesthesia, or Internal Medicine. It could be a related to other factors as EM is pretty procedural and I know one of the interns was having issues with the stress of doing procedures, but I was wondering if this was happening across the nation? If this is the case, medical education really needs to take action and overhaul what EM training is.

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SDN/reddit are irrelevant here.

The professional organizations are pretty much cheerleaders for their professions. If the one group (ACEP) that only exists if there are EM physicians that join, so has a huge incentive to be positive and optimistic, can’t find anything good to say and is talking catastrophic oversupply, imo that’s all you need to know
 
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medical education really needs to take action and overhaul what EM training is.
I believe what you mean is "drastically reduce the number of residency spots because they can't place their graduates into jobs."

Which won't happen, because the academic centers have grown to rely on residents to run their ERs. But that funding should really be shifted to a different specialty that needs more applicants.
 
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There's hardly a case where some of the stuff that I see on Reddit and SDN affects my day to day life, but recently I've seen several (not 1 or 2, but between 3-5) residents from the intern EM class alone choose to switch to Neurology, Anesthesia, or Internal Medicine. It could be a related to other factors as EM is pretty procedural and I know one of the interns was having issues with the stress of doing procedures, but I was wondering if this was happening across the nation? If this is the case, medical education really needs to take action and overhaul what EM training is.
I mean my med school roommate finished residency and is doing a fellowship because he can't find a job in the major metro he lives in so that's my N=1
 
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SDN/reddit are irrelevant here.

The professional organizations are pretty much cheerleaders for their professions. If the one group (ACEP) that only exists if there are EM physicians that join, so has a huge incentive to be positive and optimistic, can’t find anything good to say and is talking catastrophic oversupply, imo that’s all you need to know
Look no further than ASTRO (rad/onc society) for proof of this
 
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I've personally had the opposite experience; the students at my school interested in EM and all the EM physicians I've spoken to irl seem to think that there will be no decline in EM at all and made it seem like I was the weird one for bringing it up. A bunch of people are either in for a rude awakening, or it is exaggerated after all.
 
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FWIW During my years at my medschool, I have kept in email correspondence with an EM faculty since MS1. They have replied to all my emails regarding LORs, memes, compliments about their TV interviews, etc. Recently, I emailed them a 2021 ERAS stat showing a 17% decrease in EM apps USMD and asked for their perspective. They did not respond to me for the first time ever...
 
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I've personally had the opposite experience; the students at my school interested in EM and all the EM physicians I've spoken to irl seem to think that there will be no decline in EM at all and made it seem like I was the weird one for bringing it up. A bunch of people are either in for a rude awakening, or it is exaggerated after all.
So I think it is possibly simultaneously true that it is being exaggerated, and yet will still be really really bad.
 
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The only potential salvation for the EM job market is that the job has sucked MUCH more over the past couple years due to Covid. So maybe people will just leave the field earlier.

So the silver lining is that everything is terrible.
 
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I've personally had the opposite experience; the students at my school interested in EM and all the EM physicians I've spoken to irl seem to think that there will be no decline in EM at all and made it seem like I was the weird one for bringing it up. A bunch of people are either in for a rude awakening, or it is exaggerated after all.
People that have been sheltered by academia often have this outlook. Ask senior residents who are currently looking for jobs. Some of our seniors can’t find a job within 300 miles of the major city their family is in.
 
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Maybe a solution to this that would benefit everyone would be to try to get a law passed that would have a ED doc to bed ratio that needs to be adhered to? I know people are complaining of long ED wait times across the country so more docs would help that problem and open more jobs up for people finishing residency.
 
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As with everything, I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

I think people who have the catastrophic doom and gloom are exaggerating and the people who say there won't be any problems are underscoring the issue.

From my knowledge, the ACEP report that came out indicated if hte rate of residency expansion continues, then there will be an oversupply. The key being that if the rate of expansion exists as is. I don't think that'll hold true because there's so much attention being drawn to the issue. I also think that the people who ultimately get ****ed are those who graduate from the newer programs (esp HCA programs). I go to a smaller northeast program and all of our third years had jobs lined up before December and had plenty of offers that were quite competitive.

If you are looking for an academic city job in a lucrative location (NYC, SF, LA, Philly, Boston, Atlanta etc), then no matter what field you're in, it'll be challenging to get a job in those locations. That's because they're in desirable locations lol.

From my knowledge in EM, the trend has been that you have to be fellowship trained to land these jobs (once again, because they're competitive), but that has been a trend that's been ongoing well before the wild expansion of these residencies.
 
Not sure how it got to this, but I'm not saying SDN has anything to do with anything related to general national interest in EM. SDN doesn't really affect much in the grand scheme of things. What I meant was that usually SDN overexaggerates/spills doom and gloom and in this case, maybe it's not over-exaggerating it. It seems like there are a lot of real life examples I hear about anecdotally where people are literally switching out of it in R1 which is a pretty extreme thing people wouldn't be doing unless something is really off with it. Personally if I was an EM physician or someone locked into EM I'd share this doom and gloom perspective to try and drive down interest.
 
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I don’t think the job market will be as much of an issue as previously expected because literally all of the 100+ ED docs outside of sheltered academics I know are trying to retire asap versus leave EM if possible. I do think the job itself is going to continue to get worse and worse as our health care system implodes and we are the only thing propping it up.
 
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I don’t know what to believe anymore

I’m in IM but close friends with one of the EM seniors. All of them are getting jobs and their hourly salaries blow ours out of the water. Maybe it’ll get worse later? Who knows
 
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I don’t know what to believe anymore

I’m in IM but close friends with one of the EM seniors. All of them are getting jobs and their hourly salaries blow ours out of the water. Maybe it’ll get worse later? Who knows
It depends on the area. Salaries are better than IM still, but they are trending down. Working conditions, expected number of shifts, and opportunities in desirable locations are all trending in the wrong direction as well. The thing most people don't factor in is that ACEP report predicts an oversupply eventually, however they also work under the assumption that eventually every ED in every last mile of the country is filled with an EM boarded doc before they declare oversupply, when the reality is jobs in a lot of rural places are going to go to non-boarded docs and midlevels while the cities saturate much more quickly than expected. Radiation oncology and pathology have seen similar trends in the past, and this is unsurprising. They could turn things around a bit, as anesthesia has in recent years (it's still not great but it's not headed toward absolute dumpster fires coast to coast anymore), but that seems unlikely given the current market forces at play.

Is it all gloom and doom? No, if you're willing to work in the suburbs or work for a bit more than a hospitalist, you'll be fine. But making 350-400k in a city while working 3 days a week is going to be a thing of the past, most likely.
 
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I don’t think the job market will be as much of an issue as previously expected because literally all of the 100+ ED docs outside of sheltered academics I know are trying to retire asap versus leave EM if possible. I do think the job itself is going to continue to get worse and worse as our health care system implodes and we are the only thing propping it up.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you but people tend to talk this way and yet when push comes to shove the golden handcuffs seem to win out.
 
When I look at Rad Onc, and then I look at the projected EM excess physician numbers (~10k this decade), I think it is hard to over exaggerate how bad the job market might tank on the med students currently considering the field. If my sibling was considering EM among other options I would be trying very hard to talk them into picking an alternative
 
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Switching from EM to Neurology is kinda funny given how polar opposite the fields are. Totally different personalities and workflow.
 
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Switching from EM to Neurology is kinda funny given how polar opposite the fields are. Totally different personalities and workflow.
ED residents always seem to ask why do Neurology residents take so long to give their recommendations, lol. I don't think EM does a (general) neuro consult rotation where I've trained. I suppose that particular person is going to find out and report back to his peers.
 
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I don’t know what to believe anymore

I’m in IM but close friends with one of the EM seniors. All of them are getting jobs and their hourly salaries blow ours out of the water. Maybe it’ll get worse later? Who knows
My school hosted various specialties in the past few months for Q&A. The non-academic EMs are making a smidge over $100/hr MORE than the IM guys. I realize the hours are more taxing but they're working 25% fewer hours and making 40% more. Even if there was a flat 20% paycut in the next 5 years the EM guys would still make more, and they would have made an extra $700k in these 5 years.
 
My school hosted various specialties in the past few months for Q&A. The non-academic EMs are making a smidge over $100/hr MORE than the IM guys. I realize the hours are more taxing but they're working 25% fewer hours and making 40% more. Even if there was a flat 20% paycut in the next 5 years the EM guys would still make more, and they would have made an extra $700k in these 5 years.

100/hr more only if you have a job. More and more midlevels are going to be hired and more residencies pop out more doctors -> less jobs available.

You're catching a falling knife.
 
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100/hr more only if you have a job. More and more midlevels are going to be hired and more residencies pop out more doctors -> less jobs available.

You're catching a falling knife.
Plenty of jobs in the suburbs over here. Not all of us want to live in SF/NYC. I'm not going to EM but many areas like mine are decades from any real ramifications of the over saturation in EM
 
I think so as well. Aren’t they billing critical care for everything? Maybe I don’t understand billing but that alone should lead to more $ than hospitalists
That only works if you're paid on what you bill. Many (most?) EM jobs are paid hourly.

And they definitely aren't billing CC time for everything.
 
That only works if you're paid on what you bill. Many (most?) EM jobs are paid hourly.

And they definitely aren't billing CC time for everything.
Can you expand more on that? CC docs here make a smidge more than EM but you're saying they bill much higher?
 
It reminds me of capital market inefficiencies in that once an anomaly is spotted, it is almost certainly already in the process of correcting itself.

Once people notice that there EM supply is outpacing demand, they will stop applying and it will become less competitive and more lucrative once again. When people notice this downtrend, they will capitalize and applications will begin rising
 
It reminds me of capital market inefficiencies in that once an anomaly is spotted, it is almost certainly already in the process of correcting itself.

Once people notice that there EM supply is outpacing demand, they will stop applying and it will become less competitive and more lucrative once again. When people notice this downtrend, they will capitalize and applications will begin rising
That doesn’t work if all the spots fill every year. And they ultimately will.
 
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It reminds me of capital market inefficiencies in that once an anomaly is spotted, it is almost certainly already in the process of correcting itself.

Once people notice that there EM supply is outpacing demand, they will stop applying and it will become less competitive and more lucrative once again. When people notice this downtrend, they will capitalize and applications will begin rising
The problem is that when US MD Seniors stop applying in large numbers, the spots don't go unfilled - they get IMG/FMG/reapplicants instead.

Look at Rad Onc for an example. Their US MD numbers cratered so hard, so fast that despite having a >99% match rate for US Seniors, >15% of total spots ended up in the SOAP last year. But post-SOAP all spots were filled.
 
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The problem is that when US MD Seniors stop applying in large numbers, the spots don't go unfilled - they get IMG/FMG/reapplicants instead.

Look at Rad Onc for an example. Their US MD numbers cratered so hard, so fast that despite having a >99% match rate for US Seniors, >15% of total spots ended up in the SOAP last year. But post-SOAP all spots were filled.
yeah That pretty much means there's no way to fight back via supply and demand, and value reduction is inevitable.
 
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I am guessing there could also be productivity pressures on EM wages such that fewer EM docs can see more patients
 
That doesn’t work if all the spots fill every year. And they ultimately will.
Wouldn’t it mean higher match rates for USMD grads. I thought part of the problem was that EM match rates declined to the point where EM was becoming fringe-competitive like psych.
 
If we see US seniors choosing EM less, it won't be from fear of a difficult match, it'll be fear of what their jobs will look like after training, if they can find jobs at all.

Things to worry about: Higher patient per hour expectations, lower hourly wages, increasing presence of ER midlevels, and increasing numbers and sizes of residency programs (because from the hospital's perspective, trainees function like heavily discounted, highly productive midlevels). The number of residency slots that has been added in the last decade or so is absurd - something like 1000 seats per year - which is the cause of the predicted excess I mention above. And that expansion is not slowing down, because there is no governing body in place to block new programs or close recently started ones. The ACGME's job is to decide if a program meets criteria to produce adequately trained physicians, not control numbers to influence job markets.

We are nowhere near hitting a ceiling to this phenomenon because there are far more total applicants than spots, and endless hospitals that would love to add some $50k/yr physician extenders to their ED. In a typical market model, excess supply will lead to value drop and contraction to better match demand. But in our model, the programs determining supply do not suffer any repercussion for their graduates ending up with poor pay, bad locations, or unemployment. They get all the same value out of someone during their time in the residency, by efficiently seeing patients and generating notes for attendings to cosign. The only way this can "market correct" is for the spots to become so worthless that international applicants don't want them and they go completely unfilled. Based on how some of the least desirable programs in the lowest paid specialties still find bodies for their spots, I don't think that's happening until way past the point of no return for EM.
 
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Wouldn’t it mean higher match rates for USMD grads. I thought part of the problem was that EM match rates declined to the point where EM was becoming fringe-competitive like psych.
EM was never that competitive to begin with. I don’t think match rates were ever bad for USMDs. I think it topped out at being a field with 50th percentile scores as average. Even then it was totally feasible to match with well below that.
 
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Wouldn’t it mean higher match rates for USMD grads. I thought part of the problem was that EM match rates declined to the point where EM was becoming fringe-competitive like psych.
EM is an interesting specialty to gauge competitiveness because of their SLOE system. I had classmates that matched with comlex only to MD programs and 240s who didn’t match. Bad sloe and you’re out. The sloe will probably continue to keep IMGs out because they HAVE to find an EM rotation in the US to match into EM. Finding EM auditions is a headache even for US grads
 
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EM is an interesting specialty to gauge competitiveness because of their SLOE system. I had classmates that matched with comlex only to MD programs and 240s who didn’t match. Bad sloe and you’re out. The sloe will probably continue to keep IMGs out because they HAVE to find an EM rotation in the US to match into EM. Finding EM auditions is a headache even for US grads
Rad onc programs have gotten desperate enough that some started sponsoring visas that previously would never have. Once it hits that point of already matching all USMD applicants with many seats left over, expectations have to change. In 5 years I predict you only need good SLOE to match popular programs, and anyone from anywhere will be able to match in EM overall.
 
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Rad onc programs have gotten desperate enough that some started sponsoring visas that previously would never have. Once it hits that point of already matching all USMD applicants with many seats left over, expectations have to change. In 5 years I predict you only need good SLOE to match popular programs, and anyone from anywhere will be able to match in EM overall.
In your opinion, would going into rad onc be a mistake for current/incoming med students. I shadowed one a couple years ago when immunotherapy was just beginning to get hot and it seemed like patient load was still pretty good. It seemed pretty interesting to me but don’t know how bad future prospects are looking.
 
In your opinion, would going into rad onc be a mistake for current/incoming med students. I shadowed one a couple years ago when immunotherapy was just beginning to get hot and it seemed like patient load was still pretty good. It seemed pretty interesting to me but don’t know how bad future prospects are looking.
I already thought it would be a mistake for me to consider it a couple years ago for myself, so yeah, buyer beware. I think anyone interested MUST talk to current senior residents/fellows about how their job hunt has been, and/or read the forums here and look at the match data trends in the last ten years. It dropped like a rock from one of the most competitive specialties to having the highest match rate of any field in the last 20 years (>99%). And among those still applying, folks involved in resident selection have said theyve seen significant drop in quality in last few years with many programs now taking anyone they can get. Current senior trainees are already feeling the squeeze and in ~8 years when youd be job hunting it will be far, far worse because theres been absolutely nothing done to address the runaway residency expansion.
 
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My school hosted various specialties in the past few months for Q&A. The non-academic EMs are making a smidge over $100/hr MORE than the IM guys. I realize the hours are more taxing but they're working 25% fewer hours and making 40% more. Even if there was a flat 20% paycut in the next 5 years the EM guys would still make more, and they would have made an extra $700k in these 5 years.
The average IM doc (hospitalist) make 280k working 44hrs/wk on average... Are EM docs making 400k/yr working 36 hrs? If so, the sky is not falling.
 
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Where do these #s come from? When I Google search avg comp seems to be lower for both but maybe it’s just showing me a bad source
 
Where do these #s come from? When I Google search avg comp seems to be lower for both but maybe it’s just showing me a bad source
The lower average you might see is due to academia bringing dow the average. All the hospitalist I know make 250k+ a year (even in big cities in the southeast).
 
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Where do these #s come from? When I Google search avg comp seems to be lower for both but maybe it’s just showing me a bad source
Unless it is MGMA data pretty much all of the physician salaries you see published with a goggle search are pretty inaccurate. To get a good picture of what compensation is for different things you need to talk to people in the field, and a few new grads to see what kinds of jobs/compensation they are getting.
 
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I cannot echo enough how important it is to be skeptical of salary survey data. It's self reported, reported inconsistently, and has many confounding factors. In my own case, the difference between my "salary" (I am in academics) and my earnings from last year were two-fold. If surveyed, I could give either number depending on how capricious I was feeling.
 
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Tbf the data comes with IQR and 10th/90th as well as regional stratification. All specialties have a pretty huge range but medians aren't that misleading.

Some examples with IQR from MGMA 2020 for Northeast non-academics:

Peds 221 (182-265)
FM 235 (197-289)
EM 345 (310-384)
Gas 407 (279-490)
Rads 446 (392-520)

Generally speaking in the MGMA data, region has a HUGE impact (for example Rads goes up to 606 median in Midwest). But within a region, comparing medians won't lead you far astray.
 
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