Is it possible to be a major within 4 years in the military?

[Raihan Mirza]

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So does anyone know if its possible to become a military major within 4 years of service in the military?

 

[73BARMYPgsp]

No. For MAJ-

TIS 10 Years +/- 1 year.

TIG 3 Years.

I have 6 years prior service and the best I could do would be about 10 years to MAJ. That would be if I was promoted ahead of my peers. (Secondary Zone, perfect OER's)

That means, when I go on active duty, I would have to do 3 years as a CPT and then I could get promoted.

edit--Bottom line is, you have to be in the Army for a minimum of 9 years to be a MAJ.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

Yes. I will be a major after 3 years in the military. I got 4 years of credit toward rank for med school and 3 for civilian residency. 3 more and I'll be a major.

 

[megadon]

Yes, but maybe not in HPSP without prior service. If you went straight through as a civilian, based on your speciality they may commission you above 0-3.

 

[Gastrapathy]

or just barely if you have a masters that gave you 2 years of credit beyond medical school, so you finish HPSP and become an O3 over 2 upon arrival.

 

[megadon]

or just barely if you have a masters that gave you 2 years of credit beyond medical school, so you finish HPSP and become an O3 over 2 upon arrival.

Okay Gastrapathy, I think you illustrate an excellent point, it isn't level across the services. When I saw 10 yrs for the Army, I thought, man, on the Navy line side I would make 0-4 in 8 yrs. I made 0-2 in two, in the Army it was 1.5. So which service are you in? Is there a service difference in making rank (sounds like it)? On the line side, there has always been a difference in advancement, Marine Corps being the slowest, the infantry generals just wouldn't retire and free up the pipeline.

For anyone new, there is a limit as to how many Generals you can have, so if they don't retire, you just back up the system. Not so much for 0-4 thru O-6. Maybe there are the same rules, there is just a lot more fluctuality about people getting out and freeing up the spots.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

Yes, but maybe not in HPSP without prior service. If you went straight through as a civilian, based on your speciality they may commission you above 0-3.

A typical HPSP student with no prior service comes out of medical school as an 0-3 with zero years service(4 for rank, 0 for pay, 0 for retirement). After a three-year civilian deferred residency, he then becomes an 0-3 with three years of service(7 for rank, 3 for pay, 0 for retirement). After a five-year civilian deferred residency, he then then becomes an O-4 with 5 years of service (9 for rank, 5 for pay, 0 for retirement).

 

[NavyFP]

A typical HPSP student with no prior service comes out of medical school as an 0-3 with zero years service(4 for rank, 0 for pay, 0 for retirement). After a three-year civilian deferred residency, he then becomes an 0-3 with three years of service(7 for rank, 3 for pay, 0 for retirement). After a five-year civilian deferred residency, he then then becomes an O-4 with 5 years of service (9 for rank, 5 for pay, 0 for retirement).

Almost correct. 5 year civ def res = O-3 with 1 to go.

Magic number is 10 for O-4.
Med School = 4
Each year post med school = 1
Each year prior commissioned service = 0.5
Max is 14, so no one comes into the service above an O-4 without a buttload of additional approvals and paperwork.

 

[73BARMYPgsp]

So the version I was giving was assuming no credit for anything. The time you spend on HPSP in graduate school or medical school does not count toward TIS/TIG that I know of. This person (no prior service) will go active with 0 ZERO years of either. They will be an 0-3, with Zero TIS, and Zero TIG. The clock starts on both of these when you go active. Unless it is different for Medical student vs PhD psychology (which is what I am).

This is why at 36 years old, I am not TOO far behind the other HPSPer's who are going active in the same year I am. They have to do all 9 years of their TIS and I am almost done with those. Unless I totally screw up, I will be promoted to 0-4 about 3-5 years ahead of them. (They will also make ALOT less money than me 🙂. It's a pretty big difference in pay from 0-3E with 6 vs 0-3 and zero).

 

[73BARMYPgsp]

OK, so I am looking through the regs (and archived posts) now and getting confused. Regs have that effect on me, and I am a pretty smart guy.

It appears that the Army (not sure about other services) gives some kind of TIS credit for graduate school as a civilian? That's weird to me. Why should a HPSPer who just went active have the same access to promotion as me, a former NCO with 6 years?

Also, some time may be given for a prior Master's Degree? (I have one, and then I started my current PhD program--which has a MS embedded in it).

Then, it appears that I get NO TIS credit from prior ENLISTED service toward promotion. (Pay, not promotion). Again, THAT SEEMS REALLY weird. (And kind of sh##ty) Why would my enlisted time not count toward promotion?

 

[jfitzpat]

So the version I was giving was assuming no credit for anything. The time you spend on HPSP in graduate school or medical school does not count toward TIS/TIG that I know of. This person (no prior service) will go active with 0 ZERO years of either. They will be an 0-3, with Zero TIS, and Zero TIG. The clock starts on both of these when you go active. Unless it is different for Medical student vs PhD psychology (which is what I am).

This is why at 36 years old, I am not TOO far behind the other HPSPer's who are going active in the same year I am. They have to do all 9 years of their TIS and I am almost done with those. Unless I totally screw up, I will be promoted to 0-4 about 3-5 years ahead of them. (They will also make ALOT less money than me 🙂. It's a pretty big difference in pay from 0-3E with 6 vs 0-3 and zero).

I don't know how the prior enlisted stuff works, but I know that you start O-3 in the same position as someone who came through the hard way. Therefore, you only need six years to make O-4.

 

[73BARMYPgsp]

I don't know how the prior enlisted stuff works, but I know that you start O-3 in the same position as someone who came through the hard way. Therefore, you only need six years to make O-4.

Yeah, it looks like that is what is going on. Pretty rediculous if you ask me. That brand new CPT has never had the invaluable experience of a drill sergeant crawling up his ass while dragging a weapon through the mud or being ganged up on by a Company CDR and 1SG ripping you a new one about some private in his squad who is late on his car payment.

Glad I did all that time.

 

[jfitzpat]

Yeah, it looks like that is what is going on. Pretty rediculous if you ask me. That brand new CPT has never had the invaluable experience of a drill sergeant crawling up his ass while dragging a weapon through the mud or being ganged up on by a Company CDR and 1SG ripping you a new one about some private in his squad who is late on his car payment.

Glad I did all that time.

Like I said (so don't take my word for it), I don't know anything about the enlisted stuff, but I thought someone said that prior guys get half credit for time served.

 

[73BARMYPgsp]

Like I said (so don't take my word for it), I don't know anything about the enlisted stuff, but I thought someone said that prior guys get half credit for time served.

It appears that only COMMISSIONED prior service gets the half time credit. Us ******ed, lowly, knuckle dragging NCO's were never really in the Army apparently.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

Almost correct. 5 year civ def res = O-3 with 1 to go..

I'm math challenged. You are correct.

 

[NavyFP]

It appears that only COMMISSIONED prior service gets the half time credit. Us ******ed, lowly, knuckle dragging NCO's were never really in the Army apparently.

Your prior enlisted service will make you an O-3E with x number of years. You keep time for pay from prior service. You just don't get any more from HPSP.

You are also eligible to retire before the other HPSP students.

 

[PJDent]

Your prior enlisted service will make you an O-3E with x number of years. You keep time for pay from prior service. You just don't get any more from HPSP.

You are also eligible to retire before the other HPSP students.

That sucks. I have 9 years AD toward retirement and 12 years toward pay when you count my guard time. If what you're saying is true I can only make Major before I retire with 20. Since you need 15 years TIS to make O-5, I'd have to accrue 24 years just to make the promotion and then have to stay longer to keep it for retirement pay. No thanks. Wow, for some reason I thought my TIS as enlisted counted. I feel cheated.

 

[megadon]

That sucks. I have 9 years AD toward retirement and 12 years toward pay when you count my guard time. If what you're saying is true I can only make Major before I retire with 20. Since you need 15 years TIS to make O-5, I'd have to accrue 24 years just to make the promotion and then have to stay longer to keep it for retirement pay. No thanks. Wow, for some reason I thought my TIS as enlisted counted. I feel cheated.

For some reason, everyone is counting the four years of medical school as 4 yrs TIS. Is this true? The timing sounds about right for when I thought you got promoted (around 5 yrs after finishing med school with no prior service). Yeah, being prior enlisted sucks, but at least you get O-3E for a while, but that goes away with O-4. Isn't there also some weird rule about having to do eight or nine years as an officer to retire as an officer? At least there was in the Navy, according to our supply officer back on the boat. High 3 does suck, but at least we still get a pension. Where else in America are they still giving pensions, Detroit?

 

[PJDent]

You have to do 10 years as an officer to retire as an O. Otherwise you retire as an enlisted. You have to figure that at 20 years an O-4 will retire making 37k before taxes. I think I can do better than that on my own. Unless something changes I just don't see wasting that kind of time for that paltry sum.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

That sucks. I feel cheated.

First time hurts huh. Seriously, I'm sorry for you. I've had several very big disappointments over the years.

 

[cdtgray]

It appears that only COMMISSIONED prior service gets the half time credit. Us ******ed, lowly, knuckle dragging NCO's were never really in the Army apparently.

Keep in mind that although you may have plenty of experience on the enlisted side, you don't have experience as an officer. The Army still gives you the benefit of additional pay for your previous service (in the mix of O-3E pay and time in service credit).

 

[NavyFP]

That sucks. I have 9 years AD toward retirement and 12 years toward pay when you count my guard time. If what you're saying is true I can only make Major before I retire with 20. Since you need 15 years TIS to make O-5, I'd have to accrue 24 years just to make the promotion and then have to stay longer to keep it for retirement pay. No thanks. Wow, for some reason I thought my TIS as enlisted counted. I feel cheated.

You need 12 years to make O-5.
6 years Capt to Maj
6 years Maj to LTC

So you can retire as an O-5 at 24 years of total service (27 for pay)

 

[PJDent]

You need 12 years to make O-5.
6 years Capt to Maj
6 years Maj to LTC

So you can retire as an O-5 at 24 years of total service (27 for pay)

12 years? Is that because of the 4 years of HPSP? This chart says 15:
http://www.military.com/MilitaryCareers/Content/0,14556,Promotions_AirForce_Officer,00.html

 

[NavyFP]

12 years? Is that because of the 4 years of HPSP? This chart says 15:
http://www.military.com/MilitaryCareers/Content/0,14556,Promotions_AirForce_Officer,00.html

Essentially yes.

 

[deuist]

The way I understand it (assuming no prior service or advanced degrees):

Graduate from med school: O-3
6 years later: O-4, guaranteed
5 years later (11 total): O-5, guaranteed
5 years later (16 total): O-6, depending on board approval

If someone else has more knowledge in this area, please share. Also, how do I get the Air Force to recognize my master's degree so that I can get two years credited toward my promotion to major?

 

[a1qwerty55]

So does anyone know if its possible to become a military major within 4 years of service in the military?

Actually, practicing physcians who enlist, depending on their years of experience, can come in as MAJ's and LTC's.

 

[FliteSurgn]

Graduate med school on HPSP scholarship --> automatically promoted to O-3

6 years after graduation from med school --> automatically promoted to O-4

This 6 years does not have to be active duty. (ie. it adds up during your residency, even civilian residency)

 

[deuist]

This 6 years does not have to be active duty. (ie. it adds up during your residency, even civilian residency)

That's good to know. I seriously considered taking a military residency over a civilian residency just for the rank advancement and increased pay. Now that I know that my time in civilian training won't go to waste (military speaking), I'll certainly be gunning for one of the few civilian deferments.

 

[BOHICA-FIGMO]

That's good to know. I seriously considered taking a military residency over a civilian residency just for the rank advancement and increased pay. Now that I know that my time in civilian training won't go to waste (military speaking), I'll certainly be gunning for one of the few civilian deferments.

Just remember that, unless you're FTOS, you are stuck making the ~$40K civilian residents make.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

I was wrong.

I just learned today I am in the zone for O-4 promotion after 1 year AD and a 3 year deferred civilian residency. I barely made it (by a week) but barring some bizarre thing happening, should pin on ~2 years out of residency. Yay for me! Looks like about a raise of ~$830/month! Yippee, a happy surprise.

 

[efs]

I am a long time active duty person with lots or prior enlisted time. All the above posts sound confusing to me. It can be explained a bit easier (I think). For the most part I would not worry about TIS or TIG. Take a look at your PGY because this may tell you more. If you are not sure, or it doesn't seem right - then dig into the regs and talk to some personel folks to make sure it was calculated right.

Typical Army promotion system says you come in as a 2LT out of college. Promotion to 1LT is pretty much a given, then competetive for CPT but typically at about 4 years. CPT to MAJ is usually at 10 years of service, and MAJ to LTC at 15 years. Medical folks are given service credit for graduate school (same 4 years) and come straight in as CPTs. This puts them on par with those who have been working for the past 4 years.

Typical promotion time from CPT-MAJ is 6 years. Promotion rate is ~95% for in the zone, with 2-4% below the zone. You will be considered for promotion the year ahead of the typical point, but low selection rate.

If you have other graduate school experience you may get credit for that, typically by backdating your PYG (Promotion Year Group). This is the same thing they do for civilian residencies. Usually this is a 1:1. A 5 year residency gives you 5 years credit. Med school would give you 4 years - CPT, then 5 years residency and you could be considered for promotion below the zone. Typically will get selected the following year as in the zone (6 years). this would be equivalent to any other officer coming out of school with a BS and going through the typical promotion system. MAJ is usually at 9-11 years of service. (If you get passed over, i.e. not one of the 95%, will typically get picked up the following year unless there is cause for relief. Meaning they don't want to keep you.)

From MAJ to LTC is usually 5 years, but again will be considered below the zone a year early. For College 2LT-CPT (4 years), CPT to MAJ (6 years), MAJ-LTC (5 years) this typically means 15 yars to hit LTC. With Med school you should be at LTC in 11 years, but with below the zone selections could be at 9 years.

There is credit for service. They are giving you a 1:1 for time in medical school. (Typically the same for graduate school. For a direct acsession with a 2 year MS they will typically come in as a 1LT.) They also calculate 1:1 for post-graduate training, so a 5 year residency after med school puts you right in line for below the zone selection for MAJ. They will also allow credit for work experience. Usually 0.5:1, so a doc in private practice for 6 years could get credit for 4 years of school, + 3-5 for residency, + 3 for being in practice for 6 years; and be a direct acsession as a MAJ with some time towards LTC. In my OBC class we had a direct acsession doc who came in as a COL.

Prior enlisted time doesn't count for much as far as promotion, but it does put you higher on the pay scale and closer to picking up the pension. It doesn't have any effect on where you stand for promotion time. (May make your records stand out, so potentially easier to be selected below the zone.)You'll just be a MAJ or LTC with that many more years of service.

At this point I'm topped out. I won't see another raise for longevity, my next raise will be CPT-MAJ. And as a MAJ I will be topped out, so next possible raise will be to LTC. I'll be hitting the promtion point for MAJ-LTC about the same time I will be elligible for retirement. (Need 10 years Active Federal Commisioned Service to retire as an Officer. Possible to hit 20 years AD prior to that, meaning you could retire at your highest enlisted grade and this would convert to your officer grade after you complete the 10 years officer time, which can be done after retiring.)

It can be confusing, but from what I am reading here there are a lot of misconceptions and that can make it more confusing. Again, take a look at you PYG because this will tell you when you can be considered for promotion. The rest of it just helps them figure out how to back date your PYG. Some of the senior enlisted guys may be able to help you figure out how all of this fits together and where you stand. Always worthwhile to talk to them, they've been in the systema while and know the ropes.

Hope I didn't cloud things even more.

 

[edmadison]

Typical promotion time from CPT-MAJ is 6 years. Promotion rate is ~95% for in the zone, with 2-4% below the zone. You will be considered for promotion the year ahead of the typical point, but low selection rate.

I don't know about the other services, but for Army Medical Corps, they have eliminated below the zone promotions for O-3s. This started 1-2 years ago. Thus, unless you have something special going on that gives you credit (prior service, constructive credit) you cannot get promoted to O-4 in 5 years.

Ed

 

[The White Coat Investor]

I am a long time active duty person with lots or prior enlisted time. All the above posts sound confusing to me. It can be explained a bit easier (I think). .

I agreed with your explanation until I got an email saying I was in the zone. Maybe I should just keep quiet about that.

 

[megadon]

The sum reality of promotion boards is better stated like this, their magic. The 0-3 one is pretty much automatic. 0-4 in med corps is pretty much automatic unless you hit a general with a car, on purpose. On the line side, we joked the 0-3 test was if you could fog a mirror with your mouth, i.e., did you have a living breath left. The higher you get, the more congress gets involved, hence the magic.

 

[efs]

I agreed with your explanation until I got an email saying I was in the zone. Maybe I should just keep quiet about that.

Like I said, it can be confusing. Really have to look at things on a case by case basis witha copy of the regs close by in order to make sense of things. Based on what you posted I wouldn't expect to be considered, but I don't know all of the details.

If you are being considered "in the zone" expect ~95% to be selected. Sounds like good news for you. If you just made it by a week, you're more likely to be at the bottom of the list, so actual pin on date may be later than others, but better than some of us can expect.

I'm only being considered below the zone this year. Only about 2-3% of the promotin list comes from below the zone, so I'm not expecting much. Probably selected next year.

Again, if you are in the zone this year, hope it works out.

Eric

 

[elderjack21]

Interesting thread. My buddy just got picked up for LTC after 9 years in the army (he won't pin on until 10 years of service though).

The 9 years include his residency (4 yrs) and a fellowship (3 years). He has yet to attend the Captain's Career Course, or ILE. (or the medical equivalent)

The army is hurting for officers. Current promotions for non-medical personnel are also very fast. 1.5 yrs from 2LT to 1LT, another 1.5 yrs from 1LT to CPT.

 

[Blando]

when i was at oblc i asked col. malone this question[dental corps] he said ur in the zone every 6 years, he said they have promoted to major in 4, if they are really fast tracking, and it doesn't happen much, so out of dent school he said if u are on track it should maj. in 6, ltc in 12, col. 18. this is was what they told us on the dental days

 

[megadon]

when i was at oblc i asked col. malone this question[dental corps] he said ur in the zone every 6 years, he said they have promoted to major in 4, if they are really fast tracking, and it doesn't happen much, so out of dent school he said if u are on track it should maj. in 6, ltc in 12, col. 18. this is was what they told us on the dental days

You're in the zone whenever you've you've put time in grade. That's the entering argument. I think like the top 1/3 gets bumped into below zone consideration. You're supposed to put in so much time for each grade to be in-zone (2 yrs 2lt/ensign, N/A) 6 yrs CPT/LT, etc. Can you pick it up early, yes, if you have prior officer experience or the Gods favor you? Is there anything else to say?

 

[jonb12997]

I know this really doesn't apply to the discussion at hand, but at the reserve component OBC earlier this month, we had one "older" doc, a pathologist, who said to a reserve AMEDD recruiter, you bring me in as a full bird colonel and I'll join (I heard he had had previous military experience in a "former" life). Needless to say, he was there. We also had a couple LTC's, a couple majors, and obviously a ton of captains.

 

[elderjack21]

I know this really doesn't apply to the discussion at hand, but at the reserve component OBC earlier this month, we had one "older" doc, a pathologist, who said to a reserve AMEDD recruiter, you bring me in as a full bird colonel and I'll join (I heard he had had previous military experience in a "former" life). Needless to say, he was there. We also had a couple LTC's, a couple majors, and obviously a ton of captains.

I wouldn't doubt it. I ran into a reserve guy who was a LTC infantry, was a Psychologist in his civilian life, then moved to another state and become an E-8 (MSG) in military intelligence in his new new unit. Crazy stuff.