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Just wondering if any of you have experience with this.
Is it possible to support a family and go to med school?
- Thread starter S-Mart
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I wonder this as well as I will be in the same boat...what I can tell you is that when I went to law school, several people had famalies and kids. I don't know how they did it financially, but everyone seemed to be handling it ok.
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No. It is not possible to support a family while in medical school. Your loans will barely cover living expenses for you and it is almost impossible to work at another job.
Now, if by "support" you mean racking up huge debt as a student and big credit card debt as a resident trying to make ends meet on the typical pitiful resident salary then you can support a family. You won't starve and you can probably rob Peter to pay Paul just long enough to finish residency. We're doing that right now and it's going to be close.
Medicine is a decent career and I hope its going to be worth it in the end but it takes a long time to "pan out." If we knew then what we know now my wife would have vetoed the decision and I wouldn't have objected too much. There are just not that many rewards, so far, to residency. The hours suck, the pay is terrible, and some days you feel like you have accomplished nothing and remember, fondly, those bygone days when weekends were your own and you only had to go without sleep if the baby was sick or for a Mystery Science Theater marathon.
But what the hell. It can be done. We've lasted six years living on the edge. What's two more?
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While neither professional school makes it realistic to hold down a real job, medical school is far far worse for this than law school. You will not be able to work any significant number of hours in med school, if you find you have time to work at all. Folks who have families in med school either have a working spouse, family support, significant savings, or are borrowing a ton of money both from student loans and from private lenders. Those are the only viable options I am aware of, but it's possible I am missing one or two. But you will not be the primary provider while in school.
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I think it may also depend on the kind of work you have in mind. I teach college classes, and I can pay my monthly bills by teaching for a total of nine hours a week (three classes). I'm hoping to be able to continue to do this in medical school (e.g., teaching Saturday classes and/or some evening classes). It gets easier if I've already taught them, as I already have the lectures and slides prepared.
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Nine hours might be doable in the first two years but I would start out with no committments and see how the first couple of exams go. Some people find they do not have that much free time or find that they need to use their free time to keep themselves sane in other ways. If you find you are doing well in your classes, then the only concern I would have is if you cannot have flexibility in when the classes are scheduled, you may find yourself teaching the day before an exam, which wouldn't be ideal.
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Wow... umm.... that doesn't sound promising. So how much money do you get when you apply for a loan? and how much as a resident?
I'm married and we have a 14-month-old daughter. I'm also halfway through my first year, and so far things are going alright. My wife and I have not significantly changed our lifestyle; sure, no more lavish dinners and exotic trips, but all of those kind of came to an end 14 months ago anyway. She currently works from home part time, thanks to a telecommuting arrangement with her employer, which helps to cover our expenses. The rest of our "income" comes from the refunded portion of my student loans.
Based on a rough look at our finances, the loan money helps us to keep that adult-sized safety margin as we shell out for our mortgage, utilities, groceries, etc. We *might* be able to get by without it, but just barely.
Two caveats to our situation: 1: even at 40% of a full-time schedule, my wife's salary is not bad, although it's about 40% of the median household income where we live. 2: we live in an incredibly expensive area, such that I live 20 miles away from school in order to find somewhat affordable housing for a family of three. I'll add a third point, but not really a caveat: when my wife and I both worked full time, we made nearly four times what she makes alone now. Despite this marked change in cashflow, we live comfortable lives and are not worried about paying our bills from month to month. We were not "rich" before, and we're not "poor" now. You'd be surprised at how little it takes to adjust to a lower income, although there's obviously a limit to that.
It can be done. I'm living proof so far. I must admit that I can't guarantee that this arrangement will work forever, and that things might change drastically for the next year.
Based on a rough look at our finances, the loan money helps us to keep that adult-sized safety margin as we shell out for our mortgage, utilities, groceries, etc. We *might* be able to get by without it, but just barely.
Two caveats to our situation: 1: even at 40% of a full-time schedule, my wife's salary is not bad, although it's about 40% of the median household income where we live. 2: we live in an incredibly expensive area, such that I live 20 miles away from school in order to find somewhat affordable housing for a family of three. I'll add a third point, but not really a caveat: when my wife and I both worked full time, we made nearly four times what she makes alone now. Despite this marked change in cashflow, we live comfortable lives and are not worried about paying our bills from month to month. We were not "rich" before, and we're not "poor" now. You'd be surprised at how little it takes to adjust to a lower income, although there's obviously a limit to that.
It can be done. I'm living proof so far. I must admit that I can't guarantee that this arrangement will work forever, and that things might change drastically for the next year.
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blee!
Long time no hear! I wondered how med school was treating you!
Long time no hear! I wondered how med school was treating you!
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My husband and I have two children, an 18 month old and 3 1/2 year old and I'm in my first year of med school. My husband works full time. He doesn't make enough to support the family, but together with my loans, (I'm taking out the full amount which ends up to nearly $70K a year 😱 due to out of state tuition plus living expenses including daycare) we are living comfortably. The summer may be interesting though because there will be two months where I won't be in school and won't be getting financial aid. So either I can try to find a summer job and keep the kids in daycare, or pull them out and take the chance that I can't get them back in to the same daycare two months later.
They haven't kicked me out yet. 😉 I'll have to share more when I get the chance. It's certainly been a while!
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Here's a question along the same lines. What if you have savings wrapped up in a 401k plan and you want to use that to fund school or living expenses, are they taxed and penalized by the govt? Is it even wise to withdraw that to live on, especially when spouse is working full-time?
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Yes, there is a penalty for early withdrawal and tax implications. I would save this as a last resort.
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Quite possible. I am doing it. You need to budget. You should (edit: seems to vary by state) be eligible for more financial aid if children are involved. If there is only a spouse, this makes it more difficult but each school can allocate funds at their discretion once you are there if you really need it. However, you need to keep in mind that it is a loan. I made things cheaper by moving to an inexpensive part of the country and by avoiding the overpriced private schools. In the MSI year, I also took a job teaching Kaplan MCAT so that helped. There's no time for that this year, though; at least for me. I have a good friend who has worked all day every Saturday in MSI and MSII and he is doing fine. He's an average medical student, like me.
Be catious of anybody that says you "can't" do something or "you've no idea how busy you'll be" etc. There's a lot of that on SDN. Mostly it happens after the poster has had a bad day. Medical school is busy and it's expensive, but it's not impossible either. If it NEEDS to happen, you WILL find a way. There are always sacrifices to be made for family, but their support will be critical. Good luck!
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While I certainly agree with Scottish Chap on this, I would also suggest that you be cautious of people who say "no problem, you can definitely do it". You see that on SDN too much too. Particularly in terms of employment while in med school. So you need to read things with a grain of salt and navigate a course between the extremes.
The vast majority of people in med school do not work, and most feel they do not have time to work, other than during the summer between first and second year. Med school tends to be a full time job for many, and quite a few people find they are putting in longer hours than in anything preceding, including those who held down professional positions or work+postbac.
Having a family on top of this also obviously consumes substantial time. Those that do work, tend to do minimum hours, and find jobs which give them substantial down-time to study and allow them flexibility during exam weeks. So we aren't talking family supporting type jobs. And employment is certainly not going to be possible come third year. If you are thinking of working (I'm not sure what you (OP) actually meant by "support a family" but was assuming that connotes a paycheck. Most people who manage families in med school do so with loans, savings, family help and/or an employed spouse, not with employment) you really want to be able to wait until you have made it through an exam or two because frankly some people actually need all their free time to make it through.
So while I agree with Scottish Chap that a certain degree of elaboration occurs on this board in terms of the "average" med student at the average school, you cannot know until you get to med school whether this will be you. You may need more time in the books than the average. You may struggle. You cannot assume time for part time employment until you get through a couple of tests and know for certain what kind of time committment it is going to be for you, given the kind of student you are and the kind of performace you (and the school) will accept.
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Law2Doc: It depends on the student; I agree 100%. My impression is that you often portray medical school as this Ivory Tower that people should 'respect', but if you read my post carefully, you'll see that I state clearly that I am a very average student and that I'm an advocate for perseverance which overcomes a lot. That's it.
While it would be very misleading to say that medical school is easy once you're there, it is time-consuming and can be challenging, but it's definitely not impossible. With a spouse and child (my situation; I'm not sure about your own), there are added stressors though, IMHO, this can have the advantage of reminding one that life is based on people.....as is medicine.
While it would be very misleading to say that medical school is easy once you're there, it is time-consuming and can be challenging, but it's definitely not impossible. With a spouse and child (my situation; I'm not sure about your own), there are added stressors though, IMHO, this can have the advantage of reminding one that life is based on people.....as is medicine.
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I never said you couldn't do med school with a wife and kids. Many folks do, and do fine. But I would say you shouldn't expect to be supporting the family through employment/wages while there, if that is what the OP meant by "is it possible to support a family". Because that is not realistic. You manage through loans, family help, an employed spouse or other similar means. But if you expect to be the breadwinner during those years, I don't see it happening.
I don't know about the "Ivory Tower" analogy (the "Gates of Hell" is perhaps more fitting
), but I do think most people are, in fact, surprised by how time consuming med school is compared to whatever they were doing previously.- Joined
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Agreed. Being the "primary bread-winner" is not realistic whilst in medical school. As per my post, loans (more of which is available if there are kids involved) are there and this can make it possible.I never said you couldn't do med school with a wife and kids. Many folks do, and do fine. But I would say you shouldn't expect to be supporting the family through employment/wages while there, if that is what the OP meant by "is it possible to support a family". Because that is not realistic. You manage through loans, family help, an employed spouse or other similar means. But if you expect to be the breadwinner during those years, I don't see it happening.
I don't know about the "Ivory Tower" analogy (the "Gates of Hell" is perhaps more fitting
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What gets me here on SDN is the "assumptions" made...Sure some folks will be able to work some *and* do medical school *and* do well...but the VAST MAJORITY of medical students do NOT work and study a LOT and most have NO families to support/spend time with. So my suggestion is ASSUME that you will NOT be able to work. If once you start you do extremely well with minimal studying THEN you can go about getting your job or whatever. Non-trads with kids have to spend SOME time with their kids so that takes time from studying or resting, then you have classes which at some schools is full day at others half day at others you do not have to go, until you have an acceptance in hand you do NOT know which school you are going to. So again, you just do not have enough information NOW to make any decisions. Again, assume that you will not be working that you will be studying your arse off and that your time will be limited specially come clerkship time. I hope you fall into the category of folks who breeze by and can do work and ace step 1. Good luck!
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I don't think this is entirely true. The fact that I had children did not make me eligible for more money (to feed and clothe them). The fact that I pay for daycare does. They will allow you to borrow extra for daycare, because without daycare, an individual is unlikely to be able to attend school. At my school, they allow $4,500 for each child in daycare equenses. This is not enough to cover my daycare expenses, but does cover most of it.
That's essentially my situation. Your financial aid office is only legally able to increase your budget if you have certain "allowable" expenses, such as daycare. The mere existence of a child or other dependant does not automatically bump up your budget.
This is important. Just about every student loan program, federal or not, specifies that you may only borrow money to cover any gap between your current level of funding and your personal budget. In other words, if you have a $40,000 budget as determined by the FA office, but have only used $15,000 of your Stafford loans, you can't borrow the remaining $22,000.
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That's unfortunate. I've little doubt that the state one resides in factors into this. The head of the FA department where I go to school (in NY) specifically said that NY state is VERY liberal where children are concerned, so I'm fortunate in that regard.
Another thing I forgot to mention to the OP: several states (and definitely NY state) can sometimes offer medicaid to medical students with families if your assets/family income fall below a certain threshold. NY state, again, is very good about this - especially with children. A few people in my class qualified for MA and are saving thousands.
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Don't count on being the primary breadwinner in med school but I knew students who have spouses support them in med school and they take out loans for tuition and since this is a instate school, these people will have relatively little loans by the time they are done. For those with kids, some spouses support everyone while others (especially those with young kids) may do something on the side and take the rest out in loans. It's hard to have a family while in med school no matter how your slice it. Financially and emotionally, I see my friends who do this very drained at times but it's doable and it's temporary and the these people are usually good enough to students as undergrads to understand how to juggle an intense academic environment and home life.
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Yeah, you guys are right from my understanding. Some schools even verify that both spouses are working or in school before they'll let you borrow for day care.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned here is that there are some private loan programs that are credit-based and let you borrow beyond your school's budget. I believe there's one through Bank of America, and there might be others. I know there's at least one poster at SDN who borrowed extra money from this to allow his wife to stay home with their children. The thing is, though, that borrowing just up to school's budget puts you in a lot of debt, so going with extra private loans could make one really uncomfortable.
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Yes, I've heard of this. The interest rates are usually high and variable. I can't imagine borrowing beyond the $70K that I'm already borrowing every year...
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Be thankful you don't have 11 children like we do. You'd have been crucified on here by now. I asked a similar question and received a lot of very helpful advice, but a few egotistical, loud mouthed, hollowheaded *****s tend to go overboard when offering their opinions.
Take what you get here with a grain of salt. In the end, you have to do what is right for you and your family. As long as there are doubts in your mind, you may need to evaluate and re-evalutate your "calling". If you determine that this is INDEED your calling, well, I believe if there is a will, there IS a way. It may not be the most traditional way, but then again, we're not traditional students.
Good luck in your endeavors. 🙂
Take what you get here with a grain of salt. In the end, you have to do what is right for you and your family. As long as there are doubts in your mind, you may need to evaluate and re-evalutate your "calling". If you determine that this is INDEED your calling, well, I believe if there is a will, there IS a way. It may not be the most traditional way, but then again, we're not traditional students.
Good luck in your endeavors. 🙂
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I hate to be a brat, but I think that was a little uncalled for. The few individuals who berated you are not even looking at this thread, or at least they haven't responded to it.
And also.... our advice here hasn't really changed from your thread (at least those of us who tried to be helpful). We've basically said that there isn't extra money available to provide for children and that it is very difficult to plan on working in medical school.
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This has been discussed extensively. Do a search and you'll find that while you'll be taxed (though at a much lower tax bracket - how much is your income level @ school - not much if anything right?) there is NO early withdrawal penalty. You can use it for school + living expenses for med school.
OT: I got a 52" LCD 1080p flat panel and wow - @ 1920x1080 i got 2 large IE windows and it looks beautiful. Wish I could say the same thing about the dvi->hdmi video.
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Not accurate. (While there are some plans that provide for a hardship withdrawal - and not all do, there is still generally a 10% penalty.) Check with your plan administrator.
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Well, to directly respond to the OP, I sure hope that it can be done! I have 3 kids (including newborn twins) and I have no idea how I am going to afford medical school and support them at the same time. My wife works full time, so we utilize daycare (which is crazy expensive) and she will continue to work while I am in med school. Losing my salary will obviously cut our income in half, so we'll see how much lifestyle change it will take to adjust. I am not too worried though, plenty of others in a similar situation have done it. And I intend on making it work one way or another (which will most likely involve some considerable loans).
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Did I just read on here that somebody has 11 Children?
Did I just read on here that somebody has 11 Children?
Did I just read on here that somebody has 11 Children?
Did I just read on here that somebody has 11 Children?
Did I just read on here that somebody has 11 Children?
Did I just read on here that somebody has 11 Children?
Did I just read on here that somebody has 11 Children?
Did I just read on here that somebody has 11 Children?
Did I just read on here that somebody has 11 Children?
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Yes. He started a couple of threads a while ago concerning whether med school was a possibility for him. His first one was "am I crazy". His sign on is aspiringerdoc.
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I would recommend pediatrics in this instance.
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Yes we have 11. In our biology class they asked for brief introductions. I told the class that I had 11 children and was taking Biology to find out what caused it
It's fun and it's CRAZY!!!!
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Yes we have 11. In our biology class they asked for brief introductions. I told the class that I had 11 children and was taking Biology to find out what caused it
It's fun and it's CRAZY!!!!
Haha, very nice.
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ouch, only 4500 bucks per kid per year? I am getting a nanny for my kids (well, paying my mom actually) and it's gonna cost a whole lot more than that! maybe i could sell my eggs....
I am married with a newborn and am trying to figure out financials as well. Right now I am the breadwinner but by the late fall my wife should be working and it should be enough to live off of plus save a bit. I am trying to figure out how much I will need to borrow. The school I have been accepted to, my top choice, is an expensive private school but at least the housing ( if I decide to live there, which is not a given since it will be a downgrade ) is cheap. OTOH I have a feeling I will be accepted to a state school...so I have to think really long and hard about this one.
Oh by the way my in-laws have 12 kids in their family and my mil was in school with three babies and my fil was doing his pHD research shortly afterwards. They gave me motivation that it can be done.
Oh by the way my in-laws have 12 kids in their family and my mil was in school with three babies and my fil was doing his pHD research shortly afterwards. They gave me motivation that it can be done.
Looks like this topic is a lot about financials, which is of course a big concern, but I am considering going back to school for optometry and wonder about time committment to my family (6-month old and husband). Any thoughts there? How reasonable is it that I can be an available and supportive mom for my family and still be in school? From previous posts it seems like more often than not I would be in class/studying more hours than a normal full-time job?? Thanks! So glad to see all these "non-trad's" out there!
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Not necessarily true. If you are a full-time student, you can get around this by first rolling the 401k/403b over to an IRA (which you can do at any time without penalty) and then taking distributions from your new IRA. As long as they are below a certain amount (around 20k/yr, I believe) and used to pay for higher education expenses, you will not pay an early withdrawl penalty:
http://www.hrblock.com/taxes/tax_tips/deductions_credits/company_pension.html
Of course you will be taxed at your highest tax bracket, but if you are even considering this, you are probably in one of the lowest possible tax brackets anyway, so the 401k served its purpose (deferring income until a time when it can be taxed at a lower bracket than when you earned it.)
Also, if you have a Roth IRA (I know the question asked was specifically about 401k plans) you may withdraw your CONTRIBUTIONS (not your earnings) at any time without penalty.
CYA DISCLAIMER: I am not an accountant/financial planner, etc, so DO NOT take my advice about accounting and financial planning. Speak with your accountant/financial planner/attorney before making any decisions regarding early withdrawls from your retirement account(s).
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After pouring over financials again, and again, and again, I have pretty much come to the conclusion that it is very, very difficult to support a family in medical school. The way we will get through it is through the combination of:
1. My wife works and makes a decent living, but contributes, perhaps, only 1/5 of the total household income now (before medical school) so our income will drop dramatically.
2. I have been saving like a mad squirrel (y'know, hoarding food for winter) for the past 1-2 years
3. I have been very fortunate in my investments, and we will sell a bunch of our assets and property to pay for medical school/living expenses.
4. I can take money out of my retirement accounts (see my last post above)
5. I can get student loans
#s 4 and 5 will be used to make up the difference of 1-3. I would prefer not to cannibalize my retirement accounts, but it only makes sense to take out student loans if you are earning more than 6.8%/yr on your retirement account(s). While 6.8% is not a high yield by any means (S&P long-term average is something more like 13%) some years are better than others. One other consideration is that many people complain about loans here, and the extent to which I don't have to deal with loans (remember, you can only take those IRA distributions without penalty when you are a full-time student to pay for qualified educational expenses) might make me happier, and might help me to choose a specialty that I genuinely like, rather than worry about having to make $xx/yr to pay back a larger amount of loans.
Just my thoughts on the issue....
1. My wife works and makes a decent living, but contributes, perhaps, only 1/5 of the total household income now (before medical school) so our income will drop dramatically.
2. I have been saving like a mad squirrel (y'know, hoarding food for winter) for the past 1-2 years
3. I have been very fortunate in my investments, and we will sell a bunch of our assets and property to pay for medical school/living expenses.
4. I can take money out of my retirement accounts (see my last post above)
5. I can get student loans
#s 4 and 5 will be used to make up the difference of 1-3. I would prefer not to cannibalize my retirement accounts, but it only makes sense to take out student loans if you are earning more than 6.8%/yr on your retirement account(s). While 6.8% is not a high yield by any means (S&P long-term average is something more like 13%) some years are better than others. One other consideration is that many people complain about loans here, and the extent to which I don't have to deal with loans (remember, you can only take those IRA distributions without penalty when you are a full-time student to pay for qualified educational expenses) might make me happier, and might help me to choose a specialty that I genuinely like, rather than worry about having to make $xx/yr to pay back a larger amount of loans.
Just my thoughts on the issue....
