Is it really that hard to get into US MD school?

[notbobtrustme]

You basically have to be in the top 10-20% in college and you will get into an MD school. Note that 80-90% of most pre-meds won't be in the top 20%. That's why it's hard.

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[235009]

You basically have to be in the top 10-20% in college and you will get into an MD school. Note that 80-90% of most pre-meds won't be in the top 20%. That's why it's hard.

the reason I started this thread is to try and combat this kind of absurd self-aggrandizing hyperbole

 

[notbobtrustme]

the reason I started this thread is to try and combat this kind of absurd self-aggrandizing hyperbole

err, that's exactly what the numbers say. A 30 MCAT is in the mid-80s percentile. A 3.6 GPA is ostensibly in the top 10-20%. That gets you in with a reasonable level of success.

These are averages, so of course, there will be some people who sneak in with below average numbers. However, that's not a recipe for success. In anything, being above average is where you want to be. The problem is that the average is pretty damn high with respect to MD admissions, so getting to that point is fairly difficult overall.

 

[idkididk]

Is anyone else out there glad this guy isn't going in medicine?? The bar is pretty high already, but this dude is off the charts:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/05/magazine/ronan-farrow-reluctant-tv-star.html?hpw&rref=magazine

I bet that noob can't tell me the difference between an SN1 and an SN2 reaction! Ha!

 

[235009]

err, that's exactly what the numbers say. A 30 MCAT is in the mid-80s percentile. A 3.6 GPA is ostensibly in the top 10-20%. That gets you in with a reasonable level of success.

These are averages, so of course, there will be some people who sneak in with below average numbers. However, that's not a recipe for success. In anything, being above average is where you want to be. The problem is that the average is pretty damn high with respect to MD admissions, so getting to that point is fairly difficult overall.

30 is 78th percentile
3.6 is not top 20%, and certainly not top 10%. according to http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ge-grade-inflation-what-does-an-mean/3662003/ the average college GPA in 2006 was a 3.11 and if you are at a college that is extremely unselective your competition and curves become even easier to beat.

 

[BlueLabel]

the reason I started this thread is to try and combat this kind of absurd self-aggrandizing hyperbole

I don't see any hyperbole. This thread is ridiculous.

-It's less difficult to get into med school if you have high stats. Wow shocking!
-You completely ignore people who self-select out of the process
-For some reason you thought it made sense to compare the chances of getting into ONE prestigious Ivy League school for undergrad to the chances of getting into ANY US medical school (and I bet that number includes DO schools).

Sure, things are blown out of proportion around here. I think the clear bottom line, on which hopefully we can all agree, is that medical school has the most rigorous and selective admissions standards out of any professional school track (dent and vet are close behind; those three are a clear tier above opto/law/pharm/etc et al and so on

 

[SN12357]

This is a question without an answer. The question itself is too nonspecific to have meaning.

Watching people get worked up over it is entertaining, though.

 

[solitarius]

GPA at least 3.0: 48%
GPA at least 3.4: 55.5%
MCAT at least 30: 68%
GPA at least 3.4 and MCAT at least 30: 69%

The way you report the data has tremendous bias. For all we know, the bulk of acceptances occur at a threshold far above a 3.0, 3.4, or 30. If so, the data you presented is self-serving and meaningless.

Also, maybe a lot of people who get it in with below-median stats are in special categories that disqualify most applicants.

the reason I started this thread is to try and combat this kind of absurd self-aggrandizing hyperbole

Or maybe you're disparaging the 50%+ who don't get accepted as village idiots.

Got me thinking about how these stats are skewed by people who really have no business applying to med school.

 

[Tommyguns89]

err, that's exactly what the numbers say. A 30 MCAT is in the mid-80s percentile. A 3.6 GPA is ostensibly in the top 10-20%. That gets you in with a reasonable level of success.

These are averages, so of course, there will be some people who sneak in with below average numbers. However, that's not a recipe for success. In anything, being above average is where you want to be. The problem is that the average is pretty damn high with respect to MD admissions, so getting to that point is fairly difficult overall.

Your point is valid in regard to the MCAT but I feel like with GPAs grade inflation plays too much of a role to say that somebody with a 3.6 is automatically in the top 20%. There are some schools out there where you get an A- just for showing up and others where a B+ is a really good grade.

 

[235009]

-For some reason you thought it made sense to compare the chances of getting into ONE prestigious Ivy League school for undergrad to the chances of getting into ANY US medical school (and I bet that number includes DO schools).

Sure, things are blown out of proportion around here. I think the clear bottom line, on which hopefully we can all agree, is that medical school has the most rigorous and selective admissions standards out of any professional school track (dent and vet are close behind; those three are a clear tier above opto/law/pharm/etc et al and so on

no, it does not include DO schools, you clearly didn't click on the source link

your last paragraph reminds me that all the hyperbole and self-aggrandizement that goes on around here makes people think that because they got into med school they could've just showed up and made a six-figure salary in any other field. that's why you get all those "I should've just gone into investment banking" threads.

The way you report the data has tremendous bias. For all we know, the bulk of acceptances occur at a threshold far above a 3.0, 3.4, or 30. If so, the data you presented is self-serving and meaningless.

Also, maybe a lot of people who get it in with below-median stats are in special categories that disqualify most applicants.

well i gave you the link to the data and there are tables that chop up the stats in every way, i was just making a general point that people overly exaggerate the difficulty of getting into med school to make themselves feel more accomplished. this thread was moreso aimed at the people who have higher stats yet pretend like they overcame some insurmountable odds when in fact 80% of the people with those stats get in.

 

[solitarius]

I guess when someone gets their first acceptance in February after 12 rejections, it can bias their feelings about the process. The medical school application game seems structured to make me feel grateful for my one MD acceptance relatively early.

Context is everything. If you're coming from Harvard or Yale, it probably seems like no big deal since everyone seems to get in to the Top 20 schools.

BUT the scene is really different at your average state U. In the last two years, most of the best premed students at my school went DO because they couldn't clear 30 on the MCAT. Some went PA because they self-selected out of the MCAT despite good grades. A top student got accepted into a lower-ranked MD school last year although another with a 30-ish MCAT got rejected everywhere. One person did get into a Top 30 school the year before. Once in a long while, maybe someone will get into a Top 20 school that isn't U. of Washington. From this environment, getting into an MD school is a big deal.

 

[BurberryDoc]

When you have less than 2 in 5 chances of being rejected, it puts you on the upside of things. Once you're at 50% or greated chance of being rejected, that means despite everything you have worked for, the fate of your careeer in the forseeable future comes down to odds that can be likened to a coin-flip.

 

[Lavan]

There are interpersonal factors that prevent many otherwise qualified applicants from receiving interviews or being accepted once engaged in conversation.

 

[BlueLabel]

your last paragraph reminds me that all the hyperbole and self-aggrandizement that goes on around here makes people think that because they got into med school they could've just showed up and made a six-figure salary in any other field. that's why you get all those "I should've just gone into investment banking" threads.

No, it doesn't. You just totally pulled that out of thin air. Admissions criteria and matriculant statistics for US MD are objectively higher than the other categories I mentioned. You can look this up if you don't believe me.

Acknowledging the objective truth of these statistics is by no means equivalent to making any kind of assumption about investment banking, what an absurd non sequitur. The point here is that US MD is at the far upper end of the spectrum of careers in the US in terms of barriers to entry. Just because that's true doesn't mean a successful MD applicant necessarily would have been successful in some other field, or that they are better academically or otherwise than every single person in that entire field.

Yes, you're right there is some arrogance on these threads and in real life. While it's never a good thing to be arrogant, in some cases it might be justified, in others not. It's of course important that we take a step back and be realistic about the difficulty of this endeavor, but part of that realism means not doing what you're doing, OP: tipping the needle in the complete opposite direction, essentially implying that medicine is easy to get into (LOL JUST A 3.4/30). Honestly, your presumption that notching those kind of numbers is "super easy" and "anyone could do it" betrays at least as much myopia and lack of perspective as you accuse the "self-aggrandizing" pre-meds of.

 

[Lucca]

An MD acceptance is something to be proud of because MD selection is mostly a meritocracy: You put in the numbers, you get in. You might be ugly, go to a **** school, born to a poor family, a minority, a homosexual, member of a different marginalized group, foreign, an orphan, a part-time fry-cook, a nurse, a mom with five kids, a single dad - you put in the numbers, you get in. It's basically a series of boxes you have to tick and the only way to tick them is to really care about what you are doing and putting in the work. Sure, to some it might not seem like much work at all but to most it is. That's the point of a meritocratic system.

Not everyone who went into medicine can claim that they could've "just done investment banking" which is a whole different series of boxes to tick. The reason MD is perceived by some to be more difficult than those other professions is because those professions aren't completely meritocratic. For example, the hardest part of becoming an investment banker is going to a target school. After that, half the work is done for you and you just need to resume build, put up an impressive GPA, and network. Imagine if MD applications were exactly the same but you had to get into the "right" university first. That's not meritocratic, it's not easy, but less people will be impressed by it because getting into the "right" university is something that was immediately out of the reach of most people anyway. MD is never out of reach, you just have to want it and work for it and the only person responsible for it being out of reach is you. Not the HYPSM adcoms, not your parents' incomes, not your high school's pedigree, you are absolutely responsible. I don't even know why you would categorize people that make general (and probably ignorant) equations of medicine to investment banking into this group that apparently makes up the majority of pre-Meds.

I feel kind of bad for feeding the non sequitur but seriously: 80% chance of acceptance for 10% of the population is still something that 10% should be proud of.

 

[Gauss44]

Difficult or easy for WHO? One person's cinch is the next person's struggle. A person's overall intelligence can be approximated with IQ tests, which show that the average person, even in the USA, is not very smart. The pre-med pool is still a diverse group.

The (intelligent yet) uninformed: There are people who have known that GPA + MCAT = Medical School since their high school years, and planned accordingly, and people who had no clue that either mattered much.

The (intelligent yet) underserved or distracted: There are people who were able to focus almost solely on GPA, MCAT, and other pre-reqs. There are other premeds who got stuck dealing with extenuating circumstances.

The (intelligent or less intelligent) person with a social mission: The person who isn't a premed because s/he thinks s/he's smart.
, but because s/he has noticed something in society and medicine that makes him/her think s/he has something special to offer future patients. This includes but isn't limited to people who want to serve the poor, a minority group, a disadvantaged area, change the healthcare system, and/or know they will try harder than most other people (perhaps anyone else) at something important to them. This medical school candidate might speak a lesser known language or be familiar with areas of the world or a member of a subculture or minority group that's truly in need - and that most people don't understand well enough to help.

The really smart dumb people: These are the people who are extremely gifted in some areas, and almost equally lacking in other areas. Some people are extremely good with language skills and people and just lacking in math and science; or just the opposite.

Perceptions: Those who believe that they are smarter or dumber than they really are - which might be just about everyone, except when it's to an extreme. When noting that perceptions =/= reality, professional IQ tests become necessary in answering this kind of question by OP.

Those who need a challenge: I'm sure there are some people on here who are very intelligent AND have everything they need to maximize their achievements. In my experience, super smart people are often in need of a challenge and are sometimes tired of less intelligent people being catered to (or hearing others complain that such and such is difficult).

Conclusion: If you know what you are doing and have superior intelligence, and don't encounter other obstacles, getting into medical school is probably "easy" for you. However, I personally believe that a certain number of those who don't find it "easy" are also needed in medicine.

 

[BurberryDoc]

I bet that noob can't tell me the difference between an SN1 and an SN2 reaction! Ha!

Here's a question noone is asking: who cares?

 

[BurberryDoc]

Difficult or easy for WHO? One person's cinch is the next person's struggle. A person's overall intelligence can be approximated with IQ tests, which show that the average person, even in the USA, is not very smart. The pre-med pool is still a diverse group.

The (intelligent yet) uninformed: There are people who have known that GPA + MCAT = Medical School since their high school years, and planned accordingly, and people who had no clue that either mattered much.

The (intelligent yet) underserved or distracted: There are people who were able to focus almost solely on GPA, MCAT, and other pre-reqs. There are other premeds who got stuck dealing with extenuating circumstances.

The (intelligent or less intelligent) person with a social mission: The person who isn't a premed because s/he thinks s/he's smart, but because s/he has noticed something in society and medicine that makes him/her think s/he has something special to offer future patients. This includes but isn't limited to people who want to serve the poor, a minority group, a disadvantaged area, change the healthcare system, and/or know they will try harder than most other people (perhaps anyone else) at something important to them. This medical school candidate might speak a lesser known language or be familiar with areas of the world or a member of a subculture or minority group that's truly in need - and that most people don't understand well enough to help.

The really smart dumb people: These are the people who are extremely gifted in some areas, and almost equally lacking in other areas. Some people are extremely good with language skills and people and just lacking in math and science; or just the opposite.

Perceptions: Those who believe that they are smarter or dumber than they really are - which might be just about everyone, except when it's to an extreme. When noting that perceptions =/= reality, professional IQ tests become necessary in answering this kind of question by OP.

Those who need a challenge: I'm sure there are some people on here who are very intelligent AND have everything they need to maximize their achievements. In my experience, super smart people are often in need of a challenge and are sometimes tired of less intelligent people being catered to.

Conclusion: If you know what you are doing and have superior intelligence, and don't encounter other obstacles, getting into medical school is probably "easy" for you. However, I personally believe that a certain number of those who don't find it "easy" are also needed in medicine.

Sounds like my old boss, haha.

 

[BlueLabel]

Difficult or easy for WHO? One person's cinch is the next person's struggle. A person's overall intelligence can be approximated with IQ tests, which show that the average person, even in the USA, is not very smart. The pre-med pool is still a diverse group.

I kind of skimmed your post but I think I agree with most of your message. One thing I want to clarify: IQ tests are scored such that the mean score (not sure if on a national basis, global basis, or simply within the network of a particular test provider or test type) is 100, with scores normally distributed with a standard deviation of 15 points. The "average person" therefore has an IQ of 100. a 130 is as rare as a 70 and puts you in the top (or bottom) 5%. A 145 is as rare as a 55 and puts you in the top/bottom .3%

 

[Lucca]

I kind of skimmed your post but I think I agree with most of your message. One thing I want to clarify: IQ tests are scored such that the mean score (not sure if on a national basis, global basis, or simply within the network of a particular test provider or test type) is 100, with scores normally distributed with a standard deviation of 15 points. The "average person" therefore has an IQ of 100. a 130 is as rare as a 70 and puts you in the top (or bottom) 5%. A 145 is as rare as a 55 and puts you in the top/bottom .3%

I think it's hilarious that you're clarifying the Gaussian distribution to...well...Gauss.

 

[MedWonk]

Is anyone else out there glad this guy isn't going into medicine?? The bar is pretty high already, but this dude is off the charts:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/05/magazine/ronan-farrow-reluctant-tv-star.html?hpw&rref=magazine

He's an outlier. One person won't move the bar much. And I think he 'll accomplish more in his current position, so spending 7+ years training to be a physician sounds like it would be a waste unless he really wants to treat patients in addition to or instead of what he does now.

Sent from my Samsung Whatever using Who the Hell Cares

 

[Mad Jack]

Not really sure what you mean by this. Getting decent grades (As and Bs) should be a pretty universal goal for college students. Personally I didn't do anything special "from the beginning" other than getting As and Bs in my science classes which, combined with easier As in humanities classes comes out to a 3.4+ GPA.

Whoa, you must have met different students than me. 90% of them didn't give a damn about their grades so long as they passed. They'd rather be out drinking and partying than put in the extra few hours to pull their grade up by a letter.

 

[orangeman25]

Your point is valid in regard to the MCAT but I feel like with GPAs grade inflation plays too much of a role to say that somebody with a 3.6 is automatically in the top 20%. There are some schools out there where you get an A- just for showing up and others where a B+ is a really good grade.

Agree. Since the average matriculant gpa is a 3.6, i would bet that a 3.6 gpa is top 30-40% (modest estimate!) for applicants.

 

[compstomper]

To put things into perspective, there are numerous hoops to jump through to get into a US MD school. Here are some of those hoops in no particular order:

1. Do well in undergraduate courses including but not limited to medical school prerequisites.
2. Hold leadership positions in school and/or work/philanthropic organizations.
3. Have research experience, and increasingly, published research.
4. Have volunteering experience.
5. Develop good relationships with professors to receive good LOR.
6. Shadowing physicians, possible LOR.
7. Have not only clinical exposure but also clinical experience.
8. Do well on the MCAT (above 31 nowadays).
9. Have enough time and money to go through the application process as well as the interview process.
10. Be a well rounded individual with varied interests outside of academia and medicine. Athletics, musics, etc.
11. Do well on interviews.

All of the above takes for granted that all med school applicants are among the lucky 31% of the US population to have actually attained a BA degree. If a student were to stumble on one any of the above, it's fair game for adcom members to involuntarily eliminate him/her from the applicant pool. Add to the mix that the average accepted MD student has a household income of 100k, while the average US household income is 50k. Taking into account the opportunity cost of doing all of the above for a middle/working class student, and it's plain to see why not only it is very difficult to get into a US MD school, but that for many people, the prospect of becoming a MD is completely out of reach.

The OP mentioned that most who apply to medical school has no business applying and has skewed the results. Thus for those who are qualified, it's easy to get in. Completely true, yet doesn't this show that the attrition rate is so high precisely due to the difficult nature of obtaining a spot in a US MD school?

 

[MrChance2]

Something like 85-90% of people who consider themselves premeds freshman year don't end up applying to medical school. From there ~2/3 or so don't get in.
So you are top 5% or so of people with some college in the USA who at some point pursued medicine in terms of dedication to entering medicine and qualification if you get in. To me that says it is competitive. Obviously this statistical analysis isn't perfect and yeah if you're 6'10" it is easy to dunk a basketball but I think it is good to step back and think about sometimes.