Is it such a crazy idea... (student loans)

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sweetlenovo88 said:
Check out my extensive thread in the finance forum. It was more sacrifice than salary
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Actually I have seen it before. I will give you props for impressive hustle. I hope the money will still be there in X years when I'm an attending. Sacrifice or not, you still have to generate at least 450k per year to pay back 350k plus taxes and basic necessities like food and shelter. Probably closer to 500k, cause taxes are a real bitch at the higher tax brackets.

So all this goes back to what I said in the beginning of this thread. If you can generate 350k+, the average loan burden is not a big deal. You can pay it back in one year like this dude has done if you go hardcore. Let's hope 350k+ will still be there is all I'm sayin'...
 
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Brahnold Bloodaxe said:
Actually I have seen it before. I will give you props for impressive hustle. I hope the money will still be there in X years when I'm an attending. Sacrifice or not, you still have to generate at least 450k per year to pay back 350k plus taxes and basic necessities like food and shelter. Probably closer to 500k, cause taxes are a real bitch at the higher tax brackets.

So all this goes back to what I said in the beginning of this thread. If you can generate 350k+, the average loan burden is not a big deal. You can pay it back in one year like this dude has done if you go hardcore. Let's hope 350k will still be there is all I'm sayin'
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Thank you but it was not in one year. My residency also paid poorly at 43k a year in an expensive city but allowed us to moonlight. I worked my a$$ off moonlighting beginning at the end of third year; but mostly fourth year I hit it hard and never stopped. The numbers are not as high as you suggest in your thread and only kicked in in fourth year which is half of tax year 2015. A lot of it was tax optimization as well. Study taxes and retirement likes medical school and live in a tax free state if you can.
 
^^Ok, well I was replying to this statement:
Debt free in one year. 350k paid off, it can be done
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That made it seem like you literally signed checks for 350k in a 12 month period. Regardless, your approach is something we should all try to emulate.
 
Brahnold Bloodaxe said:
^^Ok, well I was replying to this statement:


That made it seem like you literally signed checks for 350k in a 12 month period. Regardless, your approach is something we should all try to emulate.
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Yes, that was a bit misleading. I apologize, the excitement gets to me. My next paycheck, I get to keep the majority of it after I make my last payment. I am sick of giving 90%+ of my paycheck away. This is not an exaggeration.
 
osprey099 said:
I was just suggesting an option. And IRRC, I did mention that it's not for everyone. If you graduate medical school at the age of 25, there's no shame in living with you parents for the latter half of your 20s especially if you aren't yet in a serious relationship or have a family of your own yet IMO.


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Bruh there should be some shame in living with your parents at 28
 
Wordead said:
Bruh there should be some shame in living with your parents at 28
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I don't see the issue as long as you're not leeching off of them. I'd take perceived shame over additional debt any day. But, alas, to each his own.
 
Wordead said:
Bruh there should be some shame in living with your parents at 28
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It's only shameful if you are a jobless bum trying to find work while residing in your mom's basement. It's far from shameful and actually shows maturity and responsibility for someone to swallow his/her ego and live in his/her mom's basement so he/she can pay off the medical school debt quicker and establish a stable financial future.


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osprey099 said:
It's only shameful if you are a jobless bum not trying to find work while residing in your mom's basement when she doesn't want her adult child living there anymore. It's far from shameful and actually shows maturity and responsibility for someone to swallow his/her ego and live in his/her mom's basement so he/she can pay off the medical school debt quicker and establish a stable financial future.
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Changed a few relevant things above. S*** happens, sometimes people's only choices are live at home or be homeless. I don't think it's shameful at all if the person is working to become independent and the parents are willing and able to let their kid live at home. I agree with the rest of your sentiments though.

Wordead said:
How are you not leeching off of them? You're by definition leeching.
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If you're paying them rent and doing significant chores that they might not be able to do because of their age then it's not necessarily leeching. I know a few people that lived with their parents for a year or two after college and paid them rent and did yardwork for them each month. It was a lot cheaper than living somewhere else and it took some daily stress off of their parents. It's not leeching when both parties benefit, especially if it helps everyone in the long run.
 
Stagg737 said:
If you're paying them rent and doing significant chores that they might not be able to do because of their age then it's not necessarily leeching. I know a few people that lived with their parents for a year or two after college and paid them rent and did yardwork for them each month. It was a lot cheaper than living somewhere else and it took some daily stress off of their parents. It's not leeching when both parties benefit, especially if it helps everyone in the long run.
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Yes, this is exactly what I'm talking about. I know many individuals that have taken this approach, whether it be by choice or through circumstance (such as supporting an ailing family member). Not saying this is going to annihilate debt or that it suits everyone's scenario, but it helps. And, it's most definitely not ignominious.
 
Bancrofti said:
People always say that you don't factor in a family, but how expensive is a kid really? Say I wanted to have a kid during residency, is it really going to hurt my pockets that much? I feel like all they need is diapers and food. That can't be more than $1500/year, right? I guess if you have to pay someone to watch your kids though, that's where the financial burden can come in to play, but anyone know how much that is? And is my logic correct in that if you were to have family watch your kid(s) or somehow got a cheap baby sitter, then they really aren't that expensive until they get significantly older?
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I have a kid (almost 4)
In my crappy NE city, we paid about $1,200 a month for daycare (went down to $750 once he was potty trained), and this was the average if you weren't receiving state-funded childcare. We got a babysitter one night per month for date night which ran about $15/hour. Formula costs $24 a box, and I used a tub every 4 days for about 8 months with the child. Diapers run about $70 a month for the first year of life, then I would say about $40 a month until potty trained (~2 additional years).

Our first infant carseat cost almost $200; had to buy a new one when he was about a year old (2, actually, one for both cars), and recently had to buy another one because he is a giant (the new ones only cost $90 a piece, woohoo!). Oh, don't forget to factor in random doctors visits when they do something ridiculous (just got a $2,000 hospital bill for an ER visit/US for suspected appendicitis...false alarm).

So, during the infant stage, I'd say we spent close to $16,000 a year on food/diapers/daycare. Now that he is a little older, we spend $600/month on daycare, and he eats whatever we eat, so food really isn't that expensive. It is much more affordable now.

Don't forget to factor in the cost of clothes/shoes/toys (my kid wanted an action figure the other day...$8.99 for a freaking toy from Inside Out).

Kids are expensive, whiney, and exhausting, but I love my little dude and wouldn't want life any other way.
 
osprey099 said:
It's only shameful if you are a jobless bum trying to find work while residing in your mom's basement. It's far from shameful and actually shows maturity and responsibility for someone to swallow his/her ego and live in his/her mom's basement so he/she can pay off the medical school debt quicker and establish a stable financial future.


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Next time you meet a hot girl and are trying to pick her up, tell her that so she knows how mature and responsible you are.

Let me know how it goes
 
Birdnals said:
Is it such a crazy idea to be aiming to pay off our student loans within 3-5 years following residency?

We hear about the "crippling, life-long" debt we're incurring by attending medical school, but does it really need to be this way? I did some basic number crunching and here's what I've come up with:

Let's say you graduate medical school with $184,000 in debt (the average in 2014). You go off and complete a residency and fellowship lasting a total of seven years. During this time, you suck, and don't pay any of the interest that accrued on your debt, leaving you with a total debt of $292,000 at the end of your training (assuming a 6.8% interest rate). Let's assume, after taxes/alimony/child support/whatever, you're brining home 200k a year. If you contributed about 10k a month to your debt, you'd have that whole massive thing paid off in 3 years and be left with 80k a year to live off of.

Now I get it that 80k a year doesn't sound like much after 11 years of training, but its only for 3 years. You'd still be much better off than you were in residency. People across the country live comfortably off of this income (or less), so why can't we adopt such a plan? Obviously, in certain geographical areas, 80k a year is gonna get stretched pretty thin, especially if there is a family involved. But besides this, what are the other pitfalls in this plan?

(By the way, if you keep up with your interest during residency, the monthly payment would drop to less than 6k a month.)
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Um, sorry, how is the average only 184,000!? That alone is less than the tuition in four years. Wtf!?

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oshanimalia said:
Um, sorry, how is the average only 184,000!? That alone is less than the tuition in four years. Wtf!?

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Because that is an average. Some students have family help (one classmate have Doctor parents - they are paying 100% of their tuition, his loan =0$), some people have prior savings (I know a girl who came in with about 150k), some people work (another person worked 20 hr/wk during first two years, 10 hr/wk in third... And lived with parents), and some depend on only loans.

There is different cost at every school - also in state or out of state.

Remember - it's an average
 
NotaCop said:
Next time you meet a hot girl and are trying to pick her up, tell her that so she knows how mature and responsible you are.

Let me know how it goes
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Sure, will do. If that "hot girl" can't see the maturity and responsibility I am showing by making an economically prudent decision in paying off my medical school debt faster, then that "hot girl" is probably not someone I want to be with anyways.


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osprey099 said:
Sure, will do. If that "hot girl" can't see the maturity and responsibility I am showing by making an economically prudent decision in paying off my medical school debt faster, then that "hot girl" is probably not someone I want to be with anyways.


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Don't lie. Everyone wants to be with the hot girl, even if it is only fleeting.

But for real, I would totally live at home with my family and save money. Who cares? Except for the fact that they drive me insane.
 
NotaCop said:
Next time you meet a hot girl and are trying to pick her up, tell her that so she knows how mature and responsible you are.

Let me know how it goes
Click to expand...

Starting dating my current SO while living with my parents. We've been together three and a half years. I'd personally be more concerned about dating a girl that judged someone solely based on where they live instead of wanting someone that is being a responsible adult. That's just me though.
 
ItsATrap! said:
Don't lie. Everyone wants to be with the hot girl, even if it is only fleeting.

But for real, I would totally live at home with my family and save money. Who cares? Except for the fact that they drive me insane.
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I've dated hot girls. They're hyped up, ain't no thang. I'd rather have a girl who puts in effort into all aspects of a relationship over a pretty face.
 
Once again this thread proves that SDN cannot take a joke. Christ guys lighten up!
 
Psai said:
If you think dating hot chicks is rare enough to be a pics or it didn't happen moment, you need to reevaluate your life
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This kind of bluff doesn't work on the internet, but does it work in real life?





....No. It doesn't work in real life, either.
hqdefault.jpg
 
Bancrofti said:
People always say that you don't factor in a family, but how expensive is a kid really? Say I wanted to have a kid during residency, is it really going to hurt my pockets that much? I feel like all they need is diapers and food. That can't be more than $1500/year, right? I guess if you have to pay someone to watch your kids though, that's where the financial burden can come in to play, but anyone know how much that is? And is my logic correct in that if you were to have family watch your kid(s) or somehow got a cheap baby sitter, then they really aren't that expensive until they get significantly older?
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There are many middle class families where it is actually cheaper for one of the parents to stay home and take care of the kids than it is for both to work and pay for daycare. Daycare is super expensive. I think my mom was paying like $200-300 per week for my two younger sisters, when they were in school, 15 years ago. I can only imagine what the cost is now for an infant.

Formula is also ridiculously expensive. Just another reason to promote breastfeeding--it's generally cheaper to provider 300-500 extra calories per day to mom than to buy formula.

OP, yes it is possible. It takes sacrifice and discipline. There are plenty of Dave Ramsey success stories of people paying off hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt within 5 years, and they are living on middle class salaries, generally. Part of that, though, is minimizing how much you take out in the first place.
 
emergentmd said:
Most Docs should pay off 300K in 3 yrs. Specialists in less than 2.

I bring home about 27K/mo. Anyone should be able to live off 7k/mo comfortably which is about a 100k salary.

That lets you put 240k/yr towards debt.
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Of course. I completely agree. This was my very first reply on this thread:

Brahnold Bloodaxe said:
You're absolutely right. 300k in debt isn't a big deal at all if you're making 350-500k like many specialties today. What has people concerned is that we know for a fact what our debt is going to be right now, but we have no idea what our salaries are going to be in 7-10 years when we start practicing. If it's 350k+ fine, if it's 150-250k then not so good.
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It's great for you that you are clearing 27k a month. I aspire to be in your position. However, there are many years yet before I become an attending and in the interim all I can do is cross my fingers and hope that clearing 27k a month will still be possible at that point. Knowing about today's salaries but being so far away from earning them is like being a kid waiting in line to grab the candy from the candy bag. Anxiously standing there and peeking at the kids in the front of the line, praying the candy won't run out before I get mine. lol
 
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Brahnold Bloodaxe said:
Of course. I completely agree. This was my very first reply on this thread:



It's great for you that you are clearing 27k a month. I aspire to be in your position. However, there are many years yet before I become an attending and in the interim all I can do is cross my fingers and hope that clearing 27k a month will still be possible at that point. Knowing about today's salaries but being so far away from earning them is like being a kid waiting in line to grab the candy from the candy bag. Anxiously standing there and peeking at the kids in the front of the line, praying the candy won't run out before I get mine. lol
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Well that's an idiotic analogy since docs work very hard for their $ so it's not at all a line to attendinghood at which point you scoop $$$$ out of a candy jar. At the end you're busting your ass for your paycheck and all the while hospital admins and CMS is finding ways to get you to do more work for less money
 
Definitely shame. Agreed. Not saying I haven't done it. But. I embraced the shame. Anyone who says that's totally okay and not shameful isn't being realistic lol.


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Not crazy at all. I plan to be out of debt before finishing residency.
 
The White Coat Investor said:
Not only is it not crazy to be rid of your loans in 2-5 years, it should be the goal. In the years I've been doing WCI, I've only met 2 or 3 people who I felt could not pull that off without undue sacrifice. I advised them to go for PSLF.
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Even with 250+ loans and 3 years of interest with a PCP salary?
 
TheaterOfTheme said:
Even with 250+ loans and 3 years of interest with a PCP salary?
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A PCP salary if you take a high paying job and work hard could easily be $225-250K. If you live just like you did as a resident ($50K) and pay $75 in taxes, that leaves you at least $100K to throw at your loans. So 3 years.

You just don't get to live in a 4000 sq ft house and drive an Audi during those three years.

If you take some crap pay PCP job ($150K) then it's obviously going to be harder. Live like a resident means not just spend like a resident, but also work like a resident!

You're not done with a trip until the bags are unpacked and you're not done with med school until the loans are paid off.
 
The White Coat Investor said:
A PCP salary if you take a high paying job and work hard could easily be $225-250K. If you live just like you did as a resident ($50K) and pay $75 in taxes, that leaves you at least $100K to throw at your loans. So 3 years.

You just don't get to live in a 4000 sq ft house and drive an Audi during those three years.

If you take some crap pay PCP job ($150K) then it's obviously going to be harder. Live like a resident means not just spend like a resident, but also work like a resident!

You're not done with a trip until the bags are unpacked and you're not done with med school until the loans are paid off.
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What tips do you have to maximize the chance of getting a higher paying position? Is this mostly a quality of residency factor? Or is it location-based?
 
TheaterOfTheme said:
What tips do you have to maximize the chance of getting a higher paying position? Is this mostly a quality of residency factor? Or is it location-based?
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More location than residency. Some places are desperate enough to give you a decent salary ($200K) AND $50K toward your student loans. But you'll likely have to work hard for your money.
 
The White Coat Investor said:
More location than residency. Some places are desperate enough to give you a decent salary ($200K) AND $50K toward your student loans. But you'll likely have to work hard for your money.
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So the more rural, the better the lay basically? Thanks for chiming in, also!


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TheaterOfTheme said:
So the more rural, the better the lay basically? Thanks for chiming in, also!


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Not necessarily. The key is less desirable place to live with real need for your specialty there. That might be rural, or it might not. Maybe it's a medium sized city in the Midwest or South for instance. The more flexible you are the better chance you get for higher pay.
 
TheaterOfTheme said:
So the more rural, the better the lay basically? Thanks for chiming in, also!


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Less desirable pays more. Higher volume pays more. Higher legal risk pays more.

But for someone straight out of residency, it does basically mean rural, undesirable areas. Those 50 patient per day urban jobs probably aren't a great idea ever, but they're definitely not the right choice straight out of residency. For at least the first year you ideally want to be working at a pace that lets you rapidly skim an uptodate article for basically every third patient you see, and leaves you time to really research a topic every night.
 
Perrotfish said:
Less desirable pays more. Higher volume pays more. Higher legal risk pays more.

But for someone straight out of residency, it does basically mean rural, undesirable areas. Those 50 patient per day urban jobs probably aren't a great idea ever, but they're definitely not the right choice straight out of residency. For at least the first year you ideally want to be working at a pace that lets you rapidly skim an uptodate article for basically every third patient you see, and leaves you time to really research a topic every night.
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Got it
That makes sense


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Not ashamed to admit it at all, but I'm actually planning on moving back into my parents' place if I happen to get residency near home. No rent, cooked meals, laundry taken care of. That's the life. They won't be here forever after all. I hope to only repay them back by taking care of them when I become at attending.

I love my parents. Wouldn't be **** without them. Maybe my upbringing is different than others'.
 
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NotaCop said:
Next time you meet a hot girl and are trying to pick her up, tell her that so she knows how mature and responsible you are.

Let me know how it goes
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**** bishes get money fam. Nothing shameful about it at all.
 
I'm also thinking about moving back with my folks if I get a residency near them. I'm lucky enough to have a fiancee who is more than okay with the idea. Someone earlier in the thread said that moving in with your parents isn't viable if you're married/partnered...Well, that's not true in my case. Multigenerational households used to be norm back in the day, and they still are in a lot of cultures. I would even continue living with my parents as an attending until I have paid off my loans. I would, of course, help them financially when I'm an attending. My fiancee loves the idea of free child-care too lol. If my mom is still working by the time I'm an attending, I'll have her quit and just stay at home taking care of my future kid(s) while my wife and I work, providing for everyone in the household. I don't get why we, Americans, have such a weird perspective when it comes to collectivism. It's natural.
 
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