Is MD worth it for me?? Post merger question also

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

chillingpanda

Full Member
7+ Year Member
Joined
May 19, 2015
Messages
146
Reaction score
50
I read a thread that kind of had me thinking, but basically the question was "is it reasonable to take gap years to get into MD" and one of the comments was "if you can't out compete premeds trying to get into MD schools, what makes you think you can out compete all those MD students" or something to that extent and another comment saying how even MD students don't match into those super competitive specialties. I don't consider myself to be super bright, and research isn't really my thing which I know you need to match those super competitive residencies. I guess I'm asking this because I want to start my career, and have a family already and Idk if it's worth losing another year of salary to try to get into an MD school given I don't perform well on the mcat. Also, given how many more DOs schools are popping up, I want to get in and get out asap before it starts getting saturated.

Idk why I'm even asking about this, maybe because it's 5 am, I'm stressed out about the MCAT & I just need somewhere to release my emotions about my future. But to sum it up, given I don't score as well as I'd like come June, and I end up at an osteopathic school, would EM be doable? Currently an ED scribe and I wouldn't mind having this as a future job. I graduated with a high 3.8, so gpa would not be an issue for landing an acceptance.
 
Last edited:
EM is competitive but doable as a DO. It may be a little more difficult post merger, but that just means you’ll just have to put in a little more effort and leg work as a DO. Seriously, all the “sky is falling” posts you see on here are incredibly premature; we have very little idea of what will actually happen post-merger. Definitely apply MD, too, if you can, but don’t put yourself and your family through more unnecessary stress; apply DO and take whatever acceptance you can get it.
 
I read a thread that kind of had me thinking, but basically the question was "is it reasonable to take gap years to get into MD" and one of the comments was "if you can't out compete premeds trying to get into MD schools, what makes you think you can out compete all those MD students" or something to that extent and another comment saying how even MD students don't match into those super competitive specialties. I don't consider myself to be super bright, and research isn't really my thing which I know you need to match those super competitive residencies. I guess I'm asking this because I want to start my career, and have a family already and Idk if it's worth losing another year of salary to try to get into an MD school given I don't perform well on the mcat. Also, given how many more DOs schools are popping up, I want to get in and get out asap before it starts getting saturated.

Idk why I'm even asking about this, maybe because it's 5 am, I'm stressed out about the MCAT & I just need somewhere to release my emotions about my future. But to sum it up, given I don't score as well as I'd like come June, and I end up at an osteopathic school, would EM be doable? Currently an ED scribe and I wouldn't mind having this as a future job. I graduated with a high 3.8, so gpa would not be an issue for landing an acceptance.

A 4th year at my school (DO) applying EM got interview offers at a bunch of academic MD programs like University of North Carolina and such with only taking comlex (which he scored slightly above average on). He had strong SLOEs, but no connection to the programs he got interviews at. He ended up taking a DO spot close to home, but felt very confident he would have matched MD because he had so many interviews. EM is competitive, but if you are a hard worker and have the application for it I would say its not only possible, but probable. Unless it substantially gains competitiveness by the time you apply.
 
I read a thread that kind of had me thinking, but basically the question was "is it reasonable to take gap years to get into MD" and one of the comments was "if you can't out compete premeds trying to get into MD schools, what makes you think you can out compete all those MD students" or something to that extent and another comment saying how even MD students don't match into those super competitive specialties. I don't consider myself to be super bright, and research isn't really my thing which I know you need to match those super competitive residencies. I guess I'm asking this because I want to start my career, and have a family already and Idk if it's worth losing another year of salary to try to get into an MD school given I don't perform well on the mcat. Also, given how many more DOs schools are popping up, I want to get in and get out asap before it starts getting saturated.

Idk why I'm even asking about this, maybe because it's 5 am, I'm stressed out about the MCAT & I just need somewhere to release my emotions about my future. But to sum it up, given I don't score as well as I'd like come June, and I end up at an osteopathic school, would EM be doable? Currently an ED scribe and I wouldn't mind having this as a future job. I graduated with a high 3.8, so gpa would not be an issue for landing an acceptance.
These are all the fields that are DO friendly:
Emergency Medicine
Child Neurology
Transitional Year
Internal Medicine
Neurology
Internal Medicine/Pediatrics
Psychiatry
Anesthesiology
Pathology
Pediatrics
Family Medicine
Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation

A little more work, but still doable:
Radiology-Diagnostic
Obstetrics and Gynecology

Possible, but will require a lot more work:
Radiation Oncology
Surgery
Thoracic Surgery

Difficult to really difficult for DOs:
Vascular Surgery
Orthopaedic Surgery
Neurological Surgery
Otolaryngology
Plastic Surgery
Dermatology

Source: Program Director's survey.
For soon-to-be former AOA programs, you have to be as competitive for them as any MD would be in the ACGME world. Competitive specialities are competitive for a reason.
 
These are all the fields that are DO friendly:
Emergency Medicine
Child Neurology
Transitional Year
Internal Medicine
Neurology
Internal Medicine/Pediatrics
Psychiatry
Anesthesiology
Pathology
Pediatrics
Family Medicine
Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation

A little more work, but still doable:
Radiology-Diagnostic
Obstetrics and Gynecology

Possible, but will require a lot more work:
Radiation Oncology
Surgery
Thoracic Surgery

Difficult to really difficult for DOs:
Vascular Surgery
Orthopaedic Surgery
Neurological Surgery
Otolaryngology
Plastic Surgery
Dermatology

Source: Program Director's survey.
For soon-to-be former AOA programs, you have to be as competitive for them as any MD would be in the ACGME world. Competitive specialities are competitive for a reason.

Thank you, Goro!

I’ve been looking for this information.
 
These are all the fields that are DO friendly:
Emergency Medicine
Child Neurology
Transitional Year
Internal Medicine
Neurology
Internal Medicine/Pediatrics
Psychiatry
Anesthesiology
Pathology
Pediatrics
Family Medicine
Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation

A little more work, but still doable:
Radiology-Diagnostic
Obstetrics and Gynecology

Possible, but will require a lot more work:
Radiation Oncology
Surgery
Thoracic Surgery

Difficult to really difficult for DOs:
Vascular Surgery
Orthopaedic Surgery
Neurological Surgery
Otolaryngology
Plastic Surgery
Dermatology

Source: Program Director's survey.
For soon-to-be former AOA programs, you have to be as competitive for them as any MD would be in the ACGME world. Competitive specialities are competitive for a reason.
Out of curiosity, where would interventional radiology fall on this spectrum? Similar to diagnostic?

I would imagine ophthalmology would be very difficult as well, right?
 
I would imagine ophthalmology would be very difficult as well, right?

Extremely difficult. Specialties like ophthalmology are basically not possible without strong letters from ACGME faculty and great research as a bare minimum. Perusing the site, you can find out that both of these things are hard for a DO student to do. My friends can't even hear back from low tier IM programs for research. If you can get into an MD program, do it. Otherwise you are automatically dealt an inferior hand when it comes time for residency, and is something you should be ready to accept.
 
Last edited:
Extremely difficult. Specialties like ophthalmology are basically not possible without strong letters from ACGME faculty and great research as a bare minimum. Perusing the site, you can find out that both of these things are hard for a DO student to do. My friends can't even hear back from low tier IM programs for research. If you can get into an MD program, do it. Otherwise you are automatically dealt an inferior hand when it comes time for residency, and is something you should be ready to accept.
It's extremely difficult to match as an MD too, no?
 
For people on the MD side that have the stats and research, they will likely match. That is not at all the case for DOs. It is a completely different playing field for DOs.

You're way too doom and gloom bro. MD's have it MUCH easier, but if you have the research and scores you will do decent in the MD match. Examples: People I personally know / have talked to matching ACGME derm with low 240 USMLE and 3 pubs, MD neurosurgery with low 240 and a few pubs, MD ortho with around the same, Gen surg with much lower, and my buddy who matched ENT this year told me he met 5+ DO's with 10+ MD ENT interview invites (all of which still decided to take the sure thing and match AOA from what he said). If you look like an MD applicant you will have a decent shot, not a sure shot, but certainly a decent one. Problem is, most DO schools cant prepare you to look like an MD applicant. Some will, and it is important to figure out which ones do. However, I agree MD >>> DO
 
You're way too doom and gloom bro. MD's have it MUCH easier, but if you have the research and scores you will do decent in the MD match. Examples: People I personally know / have talked to matching ACGME derm with low 240 USMLE and 3 pubs, MD neurosurgery with low 240 and a few pubs, MD ortho with around the same, Gen surg with much lower, and my buddy who matched ENT this year told me he met 5+ DO's with 10+ MD ENT interview invites (all of which still decided to take the sure thing and match AOA from what he said). If you look like an MD applicant you will have a decent shot, not a sure shot, but certainly a decent one. Problem is, most DO schools cant prepare you to look like an MD applicant. Some will, and it is important to figure out which ones do. However, I agree MD >>> DO

Obviously people match. But it will take strong letters and really good research. Specifically for ophthalmology, I know of several applicants who didn't match with outstanding scores and good research, because they didn't have any strong letters, and I only know of DOs who matched because of people writing letters or making phone calls to get them in the door. In fact, if you browse the ophthalmology subforum you can read of some experiences like that. Normally when people from the DO side match, it is due to connections in the field, usually through research with these connections, and that is something you won't really know unless you dig deeper into the real background of the applicant. I know this from my past research job at a top program, talking to residents and fellows who did residency at around 10 different programs, as well as a couple of high profile PDs who are extremely experienced in this field. No one thinks a PD will have any incentive to interview any DO applicant in ophtho unless they have some sort of person vouching for them. Go ask on the ophtho forum and you'll hear the same thing from people who are in the field.
 
Last edited:
For people on the MD side that have the stats and research, they will likely match. That is not at all the case for DOs. It is a completely different playing field for DOs.
Ah man, this just makes it so much more difficult. I know a competitive step score is no guarantee, but I'd hate to do well and be limited based on going the DO route. I'm just afraid because I'm ORM and I know a few other ORM personally that had a 3.9 and 509-510 mcat and only had 1 interview, or 1 acceptance into an MD program.
 
Ah man, this just makes it so much more difficult. I know a competitive step score is no guarantee, but I'd hate to do well and be limited based on going the DO route. I'm just afraid because I'm ORM and I know a few other ORM personally that had a 3.9 and 509-510 mcat and only had 1 interview, or 1 acceptance into an MD program.

Please take everything sab3156 says with a massive grain of salt. He’s a first year DO student with a chip on his shoulder about DO schools. He is correct that the struggle is harder for DOs, but he also wants to match into ophtho, which is still incredibly competitive no matter the letters after your name. For the somewhat competitive careers like EM, while it still takes more effort as a DO, it is still incredibly doable.
 
Please take everything sab3156 says with a massive grain of salt. He’s a first year DO student with a chip on his shoulder about DO schools. He is correct that the struggle is harder for DOs, but he also wants to match into ophtho, which is still incredibly competitive no matter the letters after your name. For the somewhat competitive careers like EM, while it still takes more effort as a DO, it is still incredibly doable.
It's DOable. Am I right?

I'll see myself out.
 
Ah man, this just makes it so much more difficult. I know a competitive step score is no guarantee, but I'd hate to do well and be limited based on going the DO route. I'm just afraid because I'm ORM and I know a few other ORM personally that had a 3.9 and 509-510 mcat and only had 1 interview, or 1 acceptance into an MD program.

Yep. I trust the residents, fellows, and PDs more than SDN, since those things are grounded in reality instead of theorycrafting.
 
These are all the fields that are DO friendly:
Emergency Medicine
Child Neurology
Transitional Year
Internal Medicine
Neurology
Internal Medicine/Pediatrics
Psychiatry
Anesthesiology
Pathology
Pediatrics
Family Medicine
Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation

A little more work, but still doable:
Radiology-Diagnostic
Obstetrics and Gynecology

Possible, but will require a lot more work:
Radiation Oncology
Surgery
Thoracic Surgery

Difficult to really difficult for DOs:
Vascular Surgery
Orthopaedic Surgery
Neurological Surgery
Otolaryngology
Plastic Surgery
Dermatology

Source: Program Director's survey.
For soon-to-be former AOA programs, you have to be as competitive for them as any MD would be in the ACGME world. Competitive specialities are competitive for a reason.
By more work what exactly do you mean? More publications, research, higher boards (I’d assume is obvious) but what else?
 
ophtho, which is still incredibly competitive no matter the letters after your name.

Damn, why keep repeating this dishonest comparison? Entering into an MD school means most, if not all, doors are open until you start closing them. MD schools and DO schools don't even exist in the same universe with regard to competitive residencies.
 
Damn, why keep repeating this dishonest comparison? Entering into an MD school means most, if not all, doors are open until you start closing them. MD schools and DO schools don't even exist in the same universe with regard to competitive residencies.
Just because the door is open doesn't mean you can go through it. The competitive residencies are competitive for a reason. One does not simply walk into a residency merely because you have the MD after your name.
 
Just because the door is open doesn't mean you can go through it. The competitive residencies are competitive for a reason. One does not simply walk into a residency merely because you have the MD after your name.

Yes, but that's not what I said. The point is that there is simply no comparison between a DO and MD in applying to competitive specialties. Saying "it is hard either way" is a terribly skewed statement.
 
Yes, but that's not what I said. The point is that there is simply no comparison between a DO and MD in applying to competitive specialties. Saying "it is hard either way" is a terribly skewed statement.

The point is, it *is* hard either way. To use football as an example, in competitive residencies like ophtho, it’s like as an MD, you’re starting on the 20 yard line instead of the 10 as a DO. You still have to make it the other 80-90 yards regardless.

Yes, MDs have an advantage; yes, MDs have more of an advantage in the more competitive residencies, largely because of opportunities that are more difficult for DOs to put together (like research), but it is not an insurmountable gap like you are implying. The percentage of MD students who qualify for said residencies is already ridiculously low, and the gap between those who qualify with those who don’t in the MD world is much more vast than that between MD students who qualify and DO students who qualify.

All that being said, the gap that you continue complaining about is quite small when considering low to mid competitive specialties, so please stop trying to give heart attacks to the pre-meds who aren’t looking to enter the Thunderdome.
 
The point is, it *is* hard either way. To use football as an example, in competitive residencies like ophtho, it’s like as an MD, you’re starting on the 20 yard line instead of the 10 as a DO. You still have to make it the other 80-90 yards regardless.

Yes, MDs have an advantage; yes, MDs have more of an advantage in the more competitive residencies, largely because of opportunities that are more difficult for DOs to put together (like research), but it is not an insurmountable gap like you are implying. The percentage of MD students who qualify for said residencies is already ridiculously low, and the gap between those who qualify with those who don’t in the MD world is much more vast than that between MD students who qualify and DO students who qualify.

All that being said, the gap that you continue complaining about is quite small when considering low to mid competitive specialties, so please stop trying to give heart attacks to the pre-meds who aren’t looking to enter the Thunderdome.

Terrible analogy, terrible justification for saying "it is hard for both", and straw man arguments.
 
I think people should stop focusing on the super competitive specialties and realize that even for noncompetitive specialties, it's better to go MD than DO. It's better to deal with fewer standardized exams, more stable clinical rotations, better research and networking opportunities etc. that come along with MD schools.
 
I think people should stop focusing on the super competitive specialties and realize that even for noncompetitive specialties, it's better to go MD than DO. It's better to deal with fewer standardized exams, more stable clinical rotations, better research and networking opportunities etc. that come along with MD schools.

This is true. Our point with respect to the OP was that it may not be so much better that he should forgo applying DO when he already has a decent application for DO schools.
 
Terrible analogy, terrible justification for saying "it is hard for both", and straw man arguments.

Ok, dude, it’s time for you to back up what you’re saying with evidence other than “just go look” or “I’ve talked to PDs;” because, people with far more experience in and knowledge of the system than you, particularly @Goro, are saying that you are wrong. We get that you are ticked about your choice to go DO.

I am sorry that you are as upset about it as you are, and I am sorry that your path to becoming an ophtho is much harder than you hoped, but going to a DO school is not as doom & gloom as you make it out to be. Research? A few DO schools actually do assist their students in finding research opportunities; I know mine does. Some DO schools actually do have opportunities to rotate at large academic centers; I have. It is definitely harder; there is no doubt about it, and sometimes you have to be a big advocate for yourself to get the opportunities you need. And don’t get me started on COMLEX vs USMLE; there’s no question which is the better test. But for someone who wants to be a doctor no matter what, particularly non-trads, DO is a perfectly acceptable route to go. Seriously, take a deep breath and think that maybe your “sky is falling” attitude is not going to get you into the field that you’re passionate about; in actuality, such an attitude is likely only to hurt your chances.
 
Lol go look at the match statistics if you really can't understand what I am saying and go talk to people on the subspecialty forums.
 
Lol go look at the match statistics if you really can't understand what I am saying and go talk to people on the subspecialty forums.

I went and took a look at the ophtho match statistics, since that’s the one you’re so focused on. Looks like it’s a consistent match in the 80s % for MDs with 20s to 40s for DOs. First, the n is significantly smaller for DO vs MD, so that percentage may or may not be statistically significant. Second, nobody is saying that it’s not seriously more difficult to get into competitive residencies as a DO, just not virtually impossible, like you are implying. Third, the stats that I’ve looked at don’t compare the scores of DOs who matched to MDs who matched, nor of those who didn’t match; we have no idea if the DO candidates who didn’t match didn’t because they’re DOs or because they had unrealistic expectations.

As for checking out the specialty forums, I think we all know how doom & gloom SDN can be, particularly toward DO candidates.
 
I went and took a look at the ophtho match statistics, since that’s the one you’re so focused on. Looks like it’s a consistent match in the 80s % for MDs with 20s to 40s for DOs. First, the n is significantly smaller for DO vs MD, so that percentage may or may not be statistically significant. Second, nobody is saying that it’s not seriously more difficult to get into competitive residencies as a DO, just not virtually impossible, like you are implying. Third, the stats that I’ve looked at don’t compare the scores of DOs who matched to MDs who matched, nor of those who didn’t match; we have no idea if the DO candidates who didn’t match didn’t because they’re DOs or because they had unrealistic expectations.

As for checking out the specialty forums, I think we all know how doom & gloom SDN can be, particularly toward DO candidates.

Not statistically significant? There are enough samples from several years of matching to make things statistically signicant.

A lot of the DOs who apply and don't match have good stats. It doesn't have anything to do with that, really. I know of several with outstanding stats who didn't match due to not having a strong letter. The ones that do match have that. It is pretty obvious from seeing this and also speaking to people who were residents at around 10 programs and experienced PDs that this is how it works. Sorry, but your theorycrafting is not appropriate.

And never said it is impossible. You should re-read to understand what I actually said.
 
Never said it is impossible. You should re-read to understand what I actually said.

No, you said that you have to be super connected and have research lined up before med school in order to match, hence the phrase “virtually impossible” not “impossible.” In weeks/months of this, you have yet to actually back up any of your whining with actual facts, though. I’m done with this argument, for now at least.

@chillingpanda, hopefully this thread has been enlightening for you. There are definitely downsides to the DO route, but listen to posters like @Goro, they have the knowledge and experience to guide you right.
 
Two people in my class matched ACGME opthalmology. They both had usmle scores in the 230 range. I don't know about their research, LORs or connections, though. Just throwing that out there for whatever it is worth.

Anyway, to the OP, I'd personally take a gap year. Being a MD will make your life easier. If it doesn't work out go DO. EM is do able as a DO. I think somewhere around 10% of my class ended up in EM.
 
If you have the same USMLE scores as an MD applicant or better it would be foolish for a residency director to pick an applicant with a lower board score due to those two letters.
 
If you have the same USMLE scores as an MD applicant or better it would be foolish for a residency director to pick an applicant with a lower board score due to those two letters.

If all things are equal, most PDs will always take the USMD if they have the choice. It is a reality that you must accept if you attend a DO school.
 
If all things are equal, most PDs will always take the USMD if they have the choice. It is a reality that you must accept if you attend a DO school.

Yeah probably but if a USDO as a higher USMLE then a USMD I would not expect the PD to take the less qualified applicant due to the letters.
 
Yeah probably but if a USDO as a higher USMLE then a USMD I would not expect the PD to take the less qualified applicant due to the letters.

Every PD is different. However, when I was interviewing for residency, I know I was interviewing with USMDs with usmle scores 20 points lower than mine, and these same candidates received interviews at places that rejected me. My residency class had an average usmle step 1 score of 240. I was the only DO and I had a 250+.
 
Every PD is different. However, when I was interviewing for residency, I know I was interviewing with USMDs with usmle scores 20 points lower than mine, and these same candidates received interviews at places that rejected me. My residency class had an average usmle step 1 score of 240. I was the only DO and I had a 250+.

Can I ask what specialty you chose?
 
Out of curiosity, where would interventional radiology fall on this spectrum? Similar to diagnostic?

I would imagine ophthalmology would be very difficult as well, right?

IR is about as competitive as the surgical subs for a DO. People do it every year but you have to be a good applicant.

By more work what exactly do you mean? More publications, research, higher boards (I’d assume is obvious) but what else?

You have to look like an MD applicant. That means all of the things you listed. You need have to have the person reading your app go, “wait this guy is a DO?” It definitely is possible, but your school will not help you. You have to go out on your own and essentially will it to happen through sheer effort and determination. Like was mentioned above, DO schools will not prepare you to look like an MD. Most people simply bail on the competitive specialties when they realize exactly how much effort it’s going to take.

Yeah probably but if a USDO as a higher USMLE then a USMD I would not expect the PD to take the less qualified applicant due to the letters.

You would expect wrong.
 
Just because the door is open doesn't mean you can go through it. The competitive residencies are competitive for a reason. One does not simply walk into a residency merely because you have the MD after your name.

upload_2018-3-11_19-31-14.png
 

Attachments

  • upload_2018-3-11_19-31-3.png
    upload_2018-3-11_19-31-3.png
    321.9 KB · Views: 60
Yeah probably but if a USDO as a higher USMLE then a USMD I would not expect the PD to take the less qualified applicant due to the letters.

You don't know what you're talking about, then.
 
These are all the fields that are DO friendly:
For soon-to-be former AOA programs, you have to be as competitive for them as any MD would be in the ACGME world. Competitive specialities are competitive for a reason.

What makes you say this? Some would assert that you need to be *more* competitive.

You don't know what you're talking about, then.

Could you elaborate?
 
To OP: study and do well on MCAT. Low GPA go to DO because not much you can do about it. I'm not going to bash DOs because I've met some really bright docs that are DO and I much prefer those to Caribbean grads but just know that you will be limited in residency either in program, location, or speciality.
 
What makes you say this? Some would assert that you need to be *more* competitive.
?

As of right now in the AOA world, these residencies are as competitive for DO graduates, as the comparable residencies are competitive for MD graduates. Thus, DO graduates have to be at the top of their classes for these particular residencies.
 
You're saying that a PD would take a MD graduate with a USMLE of 220 over a DO grad with a 240+?
Some programs will as a rule not consider DOs, for many others you have to be considerably better than an MD. Which brings me to this point: why go through years of proving yourself when you can just put a few hard weeks and do well on the MCAT.
 
Some programs will as a rule not consider DOs, for many others you have to be considerably better than an MD. Which brings me to this point: why go through years of proving yourself when you can just put a few hard weeks and do well on the MCAT.

working hard for a few weeks will not give the average student a good MCAT score. I know too many people with 510 3.7+ who do not get admitted to MD schools. I think its harder as a DO to match in prestigious specialties and top programs but I think you are being a little too harsh. The chief medical officer of RUSH is a DO
 
One last thing for OP to consider: although you will have no problem to match into most specialties for residency, the DO hurdle will still be there for fellowship. I have DO colleagues who really struggled to match into GI although we went to the same IM residency. This is true for many fellowships. Just try to avoid it if it's all about an MCAT score.
 
Top