Is MD worth it for me?? Post merger question also

[AlbinoHawk DO]

---

Members don't see this ad.

I read a thread that kind of had me thinking, but basically the question was "is it reasonable to take gap years to get into MD" and one of the comments was "if you can't out compete premeds trying to get into MD schools, what makes you think you can out compete all those MD students" or something to that extent and another comment saying how even MD students don't match into those super competitive specialties. I don't consider myself to be super bright, and research isn't really my thing which I know you need to match those super competitive residencies. I guess I'm asking this because I want to start my career, and have a family already and Idk if it's worth losing another year of salary to try to get into an MD school given I don't perform well on the mcat. Also, given how many more DOs schools are popping up, I want to get in and get out asap before it starts getting saturated.

Maybe the fact medical school isn't about Physics, organic chemistry, stupid clubs/leadership/research and getting good grades across miscellaneous majors.

I enjoyed the courses that I studied as a pre-med, but in all honesty, aside from the stuff you learn in biology and perhaps a few things like henderson-hasselbalch in gen chem, it was all a waste. It is designed to simply to mow down the pool of applicants.

 

[sab3156]

You're saying that a PD would take a MD graduate with a USMLE of 220 over a DO grad with a 240+?

This is a terrible, one-dimensional question. And yes, there are a huge number of programs in competitive specialties that will prefer to take a student from a strong MD school with a 230 step 1 over a student with a 260 from a low tier MD school. The same is true for MD vs DO, with the majority of programs in competitive specialties not ever considering DOs unless there is a strong reason to do so (connections, research pedigree, etc). Academic pedigree is actually a real thing - shocking.

I think its harder as a DO to match in prestigious specialties and top programs but I think you are being a little too harsh. The chief medical officer of RUSH is a DO

Who cares? What is the CMO going to tell the PDs? To accept DOs into their competitive programs because he is one? Seems legit.

 

[chillingpanda]

Hey everyone, just wanted to say thanks for taking the time to respond. I'm glad I created this thread because you guys managed to address all of my questions on going the DO route in a very thorough manner. I have read all the comments and I definitely have a lot to take in and think about.

My biggest fear is wasting time, like what if I do have to take a second gap year given I don't get the MCAT score I'd like my first attempt, and even if I did get like a 510 my second attempt (which I understand is difficult and no assurance) that still isn't guaranteed an acceptance into an MD program since I am ORM. I also have the added pressure from my parents especially when their peer's daughters/sons are getting accepted to med schools. I know that I want to become a physician so they're definitely not pushing me to go this route, but they don't necessarily understand the timeline it takes to get into med school.

I have everything needed for a competitive MD application (based on sdn) except the mcat. I know many people will think I'm looking way too far ahead and should solely focus on the MCAT right now, but this has been in the back of my mind for a while now and I guess releasing this to people that can relate to some degree is helping me cope with this since I don't have that many premed friends that truly understands the med school process.

 

[7331poas]

Read my previous posts.

I know for a fact that at the em residency program I worked at previously, the first step they do is discard any DO applications. I imagine this isn't an uncommon practice .

 

[cliquesh]

I think this thread is derailing to the exaggerated negativity SDN is known for. Being a MD will make your life easier when compared to a DO, but, for most people, I think being a DO will be totally fine. You just need to have realistic goals, which will allow you to set yourself up for success.

 

[jbrown02]

Just to chime in, I was a scribe for about a year in an ER (level 3 trauma, so I admit it's not the biggest hospital), and I worked with an MD, but we had several DO physicians there as well. Probably about 50/50.

 

[sab3156]

Just to chime in, I was a scribe for about a year in an ER (level 3 trauma, so I admit it's not the biggest hospital), and I worked with an MD, but we had several DO physicians there as well. Probably about 50/50.

What does this have to do with the limitations DOs face in residency? Your post irrelevant to this discussion. There are DOs working in top hospitals. That doesn't mean that they had their choice of specialties and programs during the residency application cycle. And if half the doctors in this hospital's ER are DOs, it sounds like a community hospital or an AOA teaching hospital, so what point are you exactly trying to make, considering the context of this discussion?

 

[Skiiiiiing]

AACOM is a little questionable as an administrative body. The "effective today, no grade replacement" debacle was a very negative signal. The number of new seats per year is also looking somewhere between opportunistic and irresponsible; I appreciate that DOs have historically matched well, however this was in an era when the number of residencies substantially exceeded the number of domestic graduates, and when KCU, DMU, and ATSU were producing the bulk of the graduates.

Moreover, while I found several of the DO programs I interviewed at to be generally very professional, there was one newer school which was...in very obvious need of administrative-level quality control.

With respect to MD admissions, unless the existing MCAT is sub-500, I probably would at least give MD applications a shot.

 

[jbrown02]

What does this have to do with the limitations DOs face in residency? Your post irrelevant to this discussion. There are DOs working in top hospitals. That doesn't mean that they had their choice of specialties and programs during the residency application cycle. And if half the doctors in this hospital's ER are DOs, it sounds like a community hospital or an AOA teaching hospital, so what point are you exactly trying to make, considering the context of this discussion?

The original user asked a question: "given I don't score as well as I'd like come June, and I end up at an osteopathic school, would EM be doable? Currently an ED scribe and I wouldn't mind having this as a future job." My response address his question, not the general debate about the advantages MDs have in residency. So no, I do not think it's irrelevant 🙂

 

[Mad Jack]

I read a thread that kind of had me thinking, but basically the question was "is it reasonable to take gap years to get into MD" and one of the comments was "if you can't out compete premeds trying to get into MD schools, what makes you think you can out compete all those MD students" or something to that extent and another comment saying how even MD students don't match into those super competitive specialties. I don't consider myself to be super bright, and research isn't really my thing which I know you need to match those super competitive residencies. I guess I'm asking this because I want to start my career, and have a family already and Idk if it's worth losing another year of salary to try to get into an MD school given I don't perform well on the mcat. Also, given how many more DOs schools are popping up, I want to get in and get out asap before it starts getting saturated.

Idk why I'm even asking about this, maybe because it's 5 am, I'm stressed out about the MCAT & I just need somewhere to release my emotions about my future. But to sum it up, given I don't score as well as I'd like come June, and I end up at an osteopathic school, would EM be doable? Currently an ED scribe and I wouldn't mind having this as a future job. I graduated with a high 3.8, so gpa would not be an issue for landing an acceptance.

EM is one of the more DO-friendly specialties. I have friends that applied exclusively ACGME and did more than okay. I wouldn't count on sticking with EM though, you could change your mind.

 

[sab3156]

The original user asked a question: "given I don't score as well as I'd like come June, and I end up at an osteopathic school, would EM be doable? Currently an ED scribe and I wouldn't mind having this as a future job." My response address his question, not the general debate about the advantages MDs have in residency. So no, I do not think it's irrelevant 🙂

We are talking about residency, and you went ahead and talked about some random hospital that has half of its EM attending staff as DOs. Your post is completely out of context.

EM is one of the more DO-friendly specialties. I have friends that applied exclusively ACGME and did more than okay. I wouldn't count on sticking with EM though, you could change your mind.

Exactly. It isn't unusual to want to switch specialties, and for this to occur when you are a DO student is scary due to the limitations you face. I agree that EM is generally pretty attainable for DOs, as long as you aren't overly picky about where you want to end up.

 

[deleted610572]

If you have the same USMLE scores as an MD applicant or better it would be foolish for a residency director to pick an applicant with a lower board score due to those two letters.

USMLE scores aren’t everything. Sure there will be some that hate on DOs but there are plenty that would offer a fair shake if they are truly equal. The USMD offers a better bet on their clinic education. They are a known commodity. Now ask yourself would you rather a 255 but 100% outpatient 3rd year experience where they mainly shadowed. Or would you rather a 247 but did a mix of preceptor and ward based 3rd year rotations where they witnessed/took part in caring for the patients as a medical team.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Yeah probably but if a USDO as a higher USMLE then a USMD I would not expect the PD to take the less qualified applicant due to the letters.

Your board scores don't mean a thing if you don't get the clinical training to know what to do with that knowledge. This is the reason that your residency applicant isn't a single line with your board scores. There is a reason why where you go to school is important.

The problem is that DO students very frequently have crap third and 4th year rotations. How often do we have threads on here where students are setting up their own rotations, just shadow during their whole rotation, never write notes, or never spend time on an inpatient rotation or a rotation with residents? During my training, I met a DO who literally didn't have an inpatient medicine rotation in medical school. He didn't know what pre-rounding was or how to do it or what to prepare. His internship was a struggle. The problem with rotations is just one problem with DO education that really doesn't happen at MD schools and PDs know this. As a PD would you want a student who had poor clinical training but 2 extra points on step 1? Would you take a student who went to a school known to have variable training vs one who went to a school with universally strong training? You would take that risk when you had other options?

Realize that it may be that DO student with better board scores who would be the less qualified applicant.

 

[calivianya]

Some programs will as a rule not consider DOs, for many others you have to be considerably better than an MD. Which brings me to this point: why go through years of proving yourself when you can just put a few hard weeks and do well on the MCAT.

🙄

Good MCAT scores will get you through the door at DO programs, not MD programs. It requires a whole lot more than a good MCAT score to go MD... unless you're thinking my 515 is a crap score and I need to go retake it ASAP.

 

[sab3156]

🙄

Good MCAT scores will get you through the door at DO programs, not MD programs. It requires a whole lot more than a good MCAT score to go MD... unless you're thinking my 515 is a crap score and I need to go retake it ASAP.

The OP has a 3.8 gpa, so with a decent MCAT score, he will 100% get into MD schools.

 

[GatorsKW14]

I am a current 3rd year DO student. I decided to take my acceptance to a DO school despite having several MD interviews during my first application cycle because everyone told me that being a DO won't limit my opportunities. The merger is a real concern for DOs. We don't know exactly what will happen, but the competition for DOs is definitely increasing. Many AOA residency programs are not going to become ACGME accredited. This means less programs to apply to and we will be competing with MDs for all of them. Most of my classmates (including myself) took USMLE step 1 and step 2 in addition to COMLEX. Those who only took COMLEX are at a major disadvantage because many programs won't even consider them without a USMLE score. Some of my classmates are now trying to take USMLE step 1 during their 3rd year.

I'm applying to EM audition rotations right now, and I've had some programs flat out tell me they don't take DOs (but will take IMGs) even though my board scores are higher than their averages for current residents. Some programs require DOs to pay $4000 for a month long audition rotation that is free for MDs. The DO bias is real and don't let people tell you otherwise. If you want to do family medicine or IM, you will be perfectly fine going to a DO school. If you want to do pretty much anything else, expect to work much harder than an MD trying to get into the same program/speciality. Having an equivalent USMLE score to an MD applicant is not enough.

Edit: To add onto what Instatewaiter said about rotations, I've also seen some residency programs require DO residents to do a completely different schedule (compared to MD residents) during intern year to make up for their inadequate 3rd year rotations.

 

[balston82]

I am a current 3rd year DO student. I decided to take my acceptance to a DO school despite having several MD interviews during my first application cycle because everyone told me that being a DO won't limit my opportunities. The merger is a real concern for DOs. We don't know exactly what will happen, but the competition for DOs is definitely increasing. Many AOA residency programs are not going to become ACGME accredited. This means less programs to apply to and we will be competing with MDs for all of them. Most of my classmates (including myself) took USMLE step 1 and step 2 in addition to COMLEX. Those who only took COMLEX are at a major disadvantage because many programs won't even consider them without a USMLE score. Some of my classmates are now trying to take USMLE step 1 during their 3rd year.

I'm applying to EM audition rotations right now, and I've had some programs flat out tell me they don't take DOs (but will take IMGs) even though my board scores are higher than their averages for current residents. Some programs require DOs to pay $4000 for a month long audition rotation that is free for MDs. The DO bias is real and don't let people tell you otherwise. If you want to do family medicine or IM, you will be perfectly fine going to a DO school. If you want to do pretty much anything else, expect to work much harder than an MD trying to get into the same program/speciality. Having an equivalent USMLE score to an MD applicant is not enough.

Edit: To add onto what Instatewaiter said about rotations, I've also seen some residency programs require DO residents to do a completely different schedule (compared to MD residents) during intern year to make up for their inadequate 3rd year rotations.

Wow I'm in the process of deciding between an MD and DO SMP, both with linkage, and this thread has really been an eye opener.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

The OP has a 3.8 gpa, so with a decent MCAT score, he will 100% get into MD schools.

That’s a bold statement considering that we have statistics that blatantly say otherwise.

OP, put everything you have into the MCAT. Your future self will thank you.

 

[GatorsKW14]

Wow I'm in the process of deciding between an MD and DO SMP, both with linkage, and this thread has really been an eye opener.

My advice for anyone that is at least a "borderline" applicant for MD schools is to try everything possible (within reason) to get into an MD school. If I could do it again, I probably would have applied for a 2nd cycle and I think I would have gotten an MD acceptance. Obviously if you have major red flags on your application, you need to be realistic with yourself. You will still become a physician coming out of a DO school, but know that it may not be the speciality of your dreams. I wish you the best of luck with your decision!

 

[IslandStyle808]

Been saying it for years. If you are going to try for MD, go full MD first cycle, especially if you have the stats. You will find out what you need to work on in case you are rejected. Then in the second or third cycle go MD and DO. Do not be a DO that regrets not trying harder for MD. I've seen far too many of them on SDN.

 

[Goro]

Been saying it for years. If you are going to try for MD, go full MD first cycle, especially if you have the stats. You will find out what you need to work on in case you are rejected. Then in the second or third cycle go MD and DO. Do not be a DO that regrets not trying harder for MD. I've seen far too many of them on SDN.

I think it would be prudent for a borderline candidate to target both MD and DO, in order not to lose a year of clinician salary.
My own cutoff would be an LM score >70....the median M.D. acceptee has 68 (but probably it's higher if we toss out the lucky state schools).

 

[Shammyguy3]

I think it would be prudent for a borderline candidate to target both MD and DO, in order not to lose a year of clinician salary.
My own cutoff would be an LM score >70....the median M.D. acceptee has 68 (but probably it's higher if we toss out the lucky state schools).

So in your opinipn would I as an IL resident have a chance at some MD schools with a 3.5 overall, 3.3 science (last 42 credit hours all science courses with a 3.8) and a 505 MCAT? Or would my MCAT need to be even higher than that?

 

[Goro]

How competitive is ophthalmology for DO's?

Brutal

 

[fldoctorgirl]

I think it would be prudent for a borderline candidate to target both MD and DO, in order not to lose a year of clinician salary.
My own cutoff would be an LM score >70....the median M.D. acceptee has 68 (but probably it's higher if we toss out the lucky state schools).

Agreed as someone with an LM of 67.

 

[calivianya]

I think it would be prudent for a borderline candidate to target both MD and DO, in order not to lose a year of clinician salary.
My own cutoff would be an LM score >70....the median M.D. acceptee has 68 (but probably it's higher if we toss out the lucky state schools).

I disagree with using a LizzyM score instead of a WARS score for a cutoff, especially with MD programs. LizzyM paints way too incomplete a picture of an applicant's chances.

Maybe a WARS of 68 and up, saying C level applicants and up?

 

[Skiiiiiing]

Even for candidates who are in the 70ish range, its probably still healthy to go visit KCU/DMU/ATSU and get experience interviewing/see what the high quality DO schools are all about.

I disagree with using a LizzyM score instead of a WARS score for a cutoff, especially with MD programs. LizzyM paints way too incomplete a picture of an applicant's chances.

Maybe a WARS of 68 and up, saying C level applicants and up?

LizzyM = avoiding cutoffs and soft cutoffs

I feel like the subjective side of the application is...well...subjective, and what one schools likes another dislikes.

 

[Shammyguy3]

I think it would be prudent for a borderline candidate to target both MD and DO, in order not to lose a year of clinician salary.
My own cutoff would be an LM score >70....the median M.D. acceptee has 68 (but probably it's higher if we toss out the lucky state schools).

@Goro

So in your opinion would I as an IL resident have a chance at some MD schools with a 3.55 overall, 3.25 science both with rising trends and a 505 MCAT? Or would my MCAT need to be even higher than that?

Details on the trend:
A) Last 42 credit hours - 3.78 cGPA
B) Over that timeframe, 35 of the 42 credits were science classes - 3.83 sGPA
C) Last 25 credits (21 of which were DIY post bacc) were all upper level sciences (anatomy/physiology, orgo, genetics, cell bio, biochem, virology) with a 4.0 GPA

Ive taken two practice tests now and ive gotten a 501 (126/125/127/123) and a 503 (125/127/127/124). Still have 4 weeks until my scheduled date. Would a balanced 505 on the real deal (something like a 126/126/127/126) be good enough to apply to MD with my GPA trends?

 

[fldoctorgirl]

@Goro

So in your opinion would I as an IL resident have a chance at some MD schools with a 3.55 overall, 3.25 science both with rising trends and a 505 MCAT? Or would my MCAT need to be even higher than that?

Details on the trend:
A) Last 42 credit hours - 3.78 cGPA
B) Over that timeframe, 35 of the 42 credits were science classes - 3.83 sGPA
C) Last 25 credits (21 of which were DIY post bacc) were all upper level sciences (anatomy/physiology, orgo, genetics, cell bio, biochem, virology) with a 4.0 GPA

Ive taken two practice tests now and ive gotten a 501 (126/125/127/123) and a 503 (125/127/127/124). Still have 4 weeks until my scheduled date. Would a balanced 505 on the real deal (something like a 126/126/127/126) be good enough to apply to MD with my GPA trends?

I'm not as wise as Goro, but I would say with your GPA (especially sGPA) and a 505 MCAT you'd be screened out by most MDs, except for maybe your state schools.

 

[Goro]

@Goro

So in your opinion would I as an IL resident have a chance at some MD schools with a 3.55 overall, 3.25 science both with rising trends and a 505 MCAT? Or would my MCAT need to be even higher than that?

Details on the trend:
A) Last 42 credit hours - 3.78 cGPA
B) Over that timeframe, 35 of the 42 credits were science classes - 3.83 sGPA
C) Last 25 credits (21 of which were DIY post bacc) were all upper level sciences (anatomy/physiology, orgo, genetics, cell bio, biochem, virology) with a 4.0 GPA

Ive taken two practice tests now and ive gotten a 501 (126/125/127/123) and a 503 (125/127/127/124). Still have 4 weeks until my scheduled date. Would a balanced 505 on the real deal (something like a 126/126/127/126) be good enough to apply to MD with my GPA trends?

There are some but not very many MD schools where a 505 will be competitive for. Your chances are best with u Illinois and SIU if you are from the southern part of the state

 

[Shammyguy3]

I'm not as wise as Goro, but I would say with your GPA (especially sGPA) and a 505 MCAT you'd be screened out by most MDs, except for maybe your state schools.

There are some but not very many MD schools where a 505 will be competitive for. Your chances are best with u Illinois and SIU if you are from the southern part of the state

Thanks for the quick responses. I'm guessing to counteract my science GPA, even with the rising trend, I would need a 510+ huh?

 

[Goro]

Thanks for the quick responses. I'm guessing to counteract my science GPA, even with the rising trend, I would need a 510+ huh?

Yup.

As of right now, I recommend:
Wake
GWU
Gtown
Rush (maybe)
Rosy Franklin
Loyola
Your state school(s).

Any DO school. I can't recommend Touro-NY, Nova, LUCOM, for different reasons. MSUCOM? Read up on Larry Nasser and you decide.

 

[dr.cfull]

Y'all are just overthinking this bias. I know a DO that matched into UW plastic surgery, and one that matched UW ortho... arguably some of the best programs out there with the highest DO bias. If you are an extremely competitive student it does not matter

 

[Lexdiamondz]

Y'all are just overthinking this bias. I know a DO that matched into UW plastic surgery, and one that matched UW ortho... arguably some of the best programs out there with the highest DO bias. If you are an extremely competitive student it does not matter

Lol you have so much to learn.

 

[Magus5454]

Y'all are just overthinking this bias. I know a DO that matched into UW plastic surgery, and one that matched UW ortho... arguably some of the best programs out there with the highest DO bias. If you are an extremely competitive student it does not matter

Just because you know one person who did it doesn't mean everyone who is competitive will.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Y'all are just overthinking this bias.

🤣

 

[dr.cfull]

Just because you know one person who did it doesn't mean everyone who is competitive will.

True. Im just saying its possible.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Y'all are just overthinking this bias. I know a DO that matched into UW plastic surgery, and one that matched UW ortho... arguably some of the best programs out there with the highest DO bias. If you are an extremely competitive student it does not matter

If there is DO in a program, then it doesn't have the highest DO bias. I'm guessing you don't know what a non-LCME filter is. They would use this and erase your application (and every DO/IMG application) from existence. Prime example is BWH, literally every program in every field doesn't have a DO.

 

[dr.cfull]

If there is DO in a program, then it doesn't have the highest DO bias. I'm guessing you don't know what a non-LCME filter is. They would use this and erase your application (and every DO/IMG application) from existence. Prime example is BWH, literally every program in every field doesn't have a DO.

It was the first DO's to ever be matched in each program at UW so thank you for supporting my point

 

[sab3156]

If there is DO in a program, then it doesn't have the highest DO bias. I'm guessing you don't know what a non-LCME filter is. They would use this and erase your application (and every DO/IMG application) from existence. Prime example is BWH, literally every program in every field doesn't have a DO.

This "non-LCME filter" you are talking about may have been in place even at programs DOs matched into. If you know someone, the filter doesn't matter. And if there is a DO in the program, it does not mean that it suddenly does not have a high anti-DO bias. You don't know the circumstances of these matches. For example, if a DO gets in because he had outstanding connections at a program, this program can still be said to have an anti-DO bias. They may not take another DO ever again, who knows.

 

[arc5005]

Y'all are just overthinking this bias. I know a DO that matched into UW plastic surgery, and one that matched UW ortho... arguably some of the best programs out there with the highest DO bias. If you are an extremely competitive student it does not matter

So many people talk about UW having a large bias against DOs? Maybe in terms of residency placement, but I know UW hires lots of DOs post-residency.

 

[sab3156]

It was the first DO's to ever be matched in each program at UW so thank you for supporting my point

The fact that you don't know about the circumstances of these matches means that your point is pretty much guesswork. There is often a massive bias at top programs in competitive specialties, even if DOs have matched there in the past (which is normally done through massive connections), so your point really cannot be substantiated at all by using these examples.

I know for a fact in one specialty, the DOs that I have seen match had outstanding letters and great networking, and still couldn't get into top programs. After talking to several PDs and residents (note that this isn't internet/SDN information), it became clear that it was the anti-DO bias that you think isn't that apparent.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

which is normally done through massive connections

And what is your evidence of this? I can literally tell you that you’re wrong in most cases. Does it happen? Yes, but the majority of great DO matches don’t have the type of connections you keep talking about

 

[IslandStyle808]

It was the first DO's to ever be matched in each program at UW so thank you for supporting my point

I thought you were referring to UW in general. They've had DOs in several specialities for years (all which have a strong reputation). If you talking about the hyper competitive specialities, then I apologize for the misinterpretation.

 

[IslandStyle808]

This "non-LCME filter" you are talking about may have been in place even at programs DOs matched into. If you know someone, the filter doesn't matter. And if there is a DO in the program, it does not mean that it suddenly does not have a high anti-DO bias. You don't know the circumstances of these matches. For example, if a DO gets in because he had outstanding connections at a program, this program can still be said to have an anti-DO bias. They may not take another DO ever again, who knows.

If someone is stating a program has the highest DO bias, then it means they don't let DOs in period no matter how good they are. I would wager these programs would be using a DO filter. If there are DOs that do interview and surprisingly match, then it may even mean the DO was able to go toe to toe with other applicants. I don't consider this a high DO bias, they just never measured up.

I will give you that there are programs where connections help. However, what do you define as connection exactly? For instance, you could do an away at an institution that you want to match at. This is also a connection? However, in our previous conversations you don't consider this to be at the level you would consider a connection. Would it be doing research for a summer or a year? I believe you consider this to be one. However, DOs have a far harder time doing this.

I don't think connections eliminate the bias in some scenarios. However, that depends on what you define as connections?

 

[GypsyHummus]

I think its deff worth it to take a gap year or two to try and get into an MD school if someone has a high GPA (3.8+c/s) vs going the DO route. This is especially so if the person has a state MD school, as those schools tend to be anywhere from 20K-40K cheaper each year than private DO schools, which weighs out the loss of attending salary in primary care, and puts the applicant in the running for competitive specialties that pay much more than primary care like Ortho, Derm, Vascular Surg, etc.

 

[sab3156]

If someone is stating a program has the highest DO bias, then it means they don't let DOs in period no matter how good they are. I would wager these programs would be using a DO filter. If there are DOs that do interview and surprisingly match, then it may even mean the DO was able to go toe to toe with other applicants. I don't consider this a high DO bias, they just never measured up.

I will give you that there are programs where connections help. However, what do you define as connection exactly? For instance, you could do an away at an institution that you want to match at. This is also a connection? However, in our previous conversations you don't consider this to be at the level you would consider a connection. Would it be doing research for a summer or a year? I believe you consider this to be one. However, DOs have a far harder time doing this.

I don't think connections eliminate the bias in some scenarios. However, that depends on what you define as connections?

I dunno. I guess it's program and specialty dependent. I worked in research at a top hospital and saw first hand what happens to people rotating through. Yes, they get letters and they get outstanding experience, but the ones that matched to the program didn't do so because of their away rotations. I spoke to the fellows about it, and one very involved fellow who is now an attending there said that she did not know of any resident ever matching to the program without pedigree and connections, and that away rotations had nothing to do with it and that no one really cared about the away rotations. And these are people from top 10 MD schools with outstanding research and ridiculous academic background (undergrad and MD from top 10 schools, etc.). They did their 3rd year rotations at hospitals like MGH, the Brigham, Barnes, UPenn, etc., and they came prepared to dominate. If you do an away rotation at a program like that, it's far more likely that you are going to hurt yourself and not impress anyone. They're already going to have a bias against you and every minor error you make is going to be magnified through their biased lenses. From what several PDs and residents/fellows at several top programs have told me, I can safely say that in top programs, doing an away rotation does not really count as a "connection".

As for doing a research year, I know of several people applying to Ophtho as DOs (and also MDs) who did not match the first time around because they did not have any real networking in the field. Second time around they did a research year and built their connections and when it came time, they matched at the programs where influential people they worked with called/wrote outstanding letters and truly vouched for them. Go ask in the subspecialty forums and see what people say. If this kind of thing happens even in mid-tier and low-tier programs in competitive specialties, it's not an extreme thing to immediately assume that DOs who match at top places had great people calling/writing letters for them.

If a program has a filter to cut out all DO applicants, it's unfortunate but I completely understand why they are doing that. If you were a PD at a top program, you'd probably do the same. I also completely agree with you that the bias at many top programs will never be fixed no matter what kind of connections someone has. There is an ophthalmologist (huge name in research) that, prior to becoming an ophthalmologist, was an optometrist and PhD. He was already a big name in research and did work at MEEI/Schepens. He went to CCOM later on while his research career was soaring, and when it came time for residency, MEEI didn't take him. Obviously his research and connections at MEEI was ridiculous - he was basically an experienced researcher there. I'm not sure of the details, but he did an ACGME ophtho residency elsewhere. Let that sink in.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I dunno. I guess it's program and specialty dependent. I worked in research at a top hospital and saw first hand what happens to people rotating through. Yes, they get letters and they get outstanding experience, but the ones that matched to the program didn't do so because of their away rotations. I spoke to the fellows about it, and one very involved fellow who is now an attending there said that she did not know of any resident ever matching to the program without pedigree and connections, and that away rotations had nothing to do with it and that no one really cared about the away rotations. And these are people from top 10 MD schools with outstanding research and ridiculous academic background (undergrad and MD from top 10 schools, etc.). They did their 3rd year rotations at hospitals like MGH, the Brigham, Barnes, UPenn, etc., and they came prepared to dominate. If you do an away rotation at a program like that, it's far more likely that you are going to hurt yourself and not impress anyone. They're already going to have a bias against you and every minor error you make is going to be magnified through their biased lenses. From what several PDs and residents/fellows at several top programs have told me, I can safely say that in top programs, doing an away rotation does not really count as a "connection"

And after all this time I can finally see the disconnect between us. The issue is that you are basing your opinions off of what these people who are in these top programs have told you, and in their world you are 100% correct. Away rotations definitely hurt you in this world and are not considered a connection. However, I can tell you that away rotations are often how DO applicants land spots in competitive ACGME fields and programs. I know this because I have hunted down the applications and experiences of a number of the "wow" DO matches from the last few years. Every single one of them attributed their match to the connections they built with a program on an away rotation there, on top of having an app that looked like the rest of the apps they were getting.

You are right that if someone is looking for a top program in ophtho and those types of fields then yes you need a big wig going to bat for you, but for many of the DOs who match well in ACGME this isn't the case. I'm talking people who have matched solid programs (no they aren't necessarily "top" programs) in derm, ENT, Neurosurg, CT, and uro by doing aways and building connections that way. A few of them did summer research internships (1 or 2), which would count as a significant connection in your book so I'll give you the point there.

The problem is that the experiences of the people at the tip top of the ivory tower are not going to be indicative of the experiences for the majority of programs and people simply trying to break into an ACGME competitive specialty at any program they can get.

 

[IslandStyle808]

I dunno. I guess it's program and specialty dependent. I worked in research at a top hospital and saw first hand what happens to people rotating through. Yes, they get letters and they get outstanding experience, but the ones that matched to the program didn't do so because of their away rotations. I spoke to the fellows about it, and one very involved fellow who is now an attending there said that she did not know of any resident ever matching to the program without pedigree and connections, and that away rotations had nothing to do with it and that no one really cared about the away rotations. And these are people from top 10 MD schools with outstanding research and ridiculous academic background (undergrad and MD from top 10 schools, etc.). They did their 3rd year rotations at hospitals like MGH, the Brigham, Barnes, UPenn, etc., and they came prepared to dominate. If you do an away rotation at a program like that, it's far more likely that you are going to hurt yourself and not impress anyone. They're already going to have a bias against you and every minor error you make is going to be magnified through their biased lenses. From what several PDs and residents/fellows at several top programs have told me, I can safely say that in top programs, doing an away rotation does not really count as a "connection".

As for doing a research year, I know of several people applying to Ophtho as DOs (and also MDs) who did not match the first time around because they did not have any real networking in the field. Second time around they did a research year and built their connections and when it came time, they matched at the programs where influential people they worked with called/wrote outstanding letters and truly vouched for them. Go ask in the subspecialty forums and see what people say. If this kind of thing happens even in mid-tier and low-tier programs in competitive specialties, it's not an extreme thing to immediately assume that DOs who match at top places had great people calling/writing letters for them.

If a program has a filter to cut out all DO applicants, it's unfortunate but I completely understand why they are doing that. If you were a PD at a top program, you'd probably do the same. I also completely agree with you that the bias at many top programs will never be fixed no matter what kind of connections someone has. There is an ophthalmologist (huge name in research) that, prior to becoming an ophthalmologist, was an optometrist and PhD. He was already a big name in research and did work at MEEI/Schepens. He went to CCOM later on while his research career was soaring, and when it came time for residency, MEEI didn't take him. Obviously his research and connections at MEEI was ridiculous - he was basically an experienced researcher there. I'm not sure of the details, but he did an ACGME ophtho residency elsewhere. Let that sink in.

And after all this time I can finally see the disconnect between us. The issue is that you are basing your opinions off of what these people who are in these top programs have told you, and in their world you are 100% correct. Away rotations definitely hurt you in this world and are not considered a connection. However, I can tell you that away rotations are often how DO applicants land spots in competitive ACGME fields and programs. I know this because I have hunted down the applications and experiences of a number of the "wow" DO matches from the last few years. Every single one of them attributed their match to the connections they built with a program on an away rotation there, on top of having an app that looked like the rest of the apps they were getting.

You are right that if someone is looking for a top program in ophtho and those types of fields then yes you need a big wig going to bat for you, but for many of the DOs who match well in ACGME this isn't the case. I'm talking people who have matched solid programs (no they aren't necessarily "top" programs) in derm, ENT, Neurosurg, CT, and uro by doing aways and building connections that way. A few of them did summer research internships (1 or 2), which would count as a significant connection in your book so I'll give you the point there.

The problem is that the experiences of the people at the tip top of the ivory tower are not going to be indicative of the experiences for the majority of programs and people simply trying to break into an ACGME competitive specialty at any program they can get.

In my previous conversations with sab3156, I knew exactly why he thinks like this. Top programs only understand the struggle of matching from their end of the spectrum. Having to look through top tier applicants from top tier schools. So of course, he's thinking of it from the standpoint of how an MD thinks of the application process. However, we are not MDs we are DOs. What gives us an extreme boost doesn't do jack squat for a top tier candidate from a top tier schools. Audition rotations for us are huge, because it allows us to match into higher places that wouldn't even look at our application. And people don't think this applies to MD also, take a look at the advice from "the physician philosopher:"

Agree with Psai above with a couple of exceptions:
1) your department doesn't have an academic anesthesia group. You need to do one away rotation to get some letters from people others in academia may actually know.
2) if there is a reach program you would not get an interview at and you want to take a month long interview there to prove yourself.

Unfortunately, most away rotation students to themselves more harm than good. It's much easier to look good on paper than it is to look good in person with a lot of different people who each have a different expectation for you.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

Attending Anesthesiologist Ask Me Anything (AMA)

Point 1 and point 2 100% applies to our situation as DO students. We don't have a home program and we want to match into places that are above our usual rank list. This is why we do aways. You can see an example of this in the PM&R thread, the person matched into a top PM&R program (Mayo) and he definitely did a audition there to boost himself up.

2017-2018 PM&R Rank Order and Match List Results

More often than not away rotations can hurt you. A lot of it stems from getting used to structure of the hospitals, EMR, etc. However, its the only way mid-tier to upper-tier programs will even glance our way. Its not the same struggle for the MDs, with the exception of students from low tier MD schools matching into upper tier residencies. I understand what sad3156 is saying and this is 100% true for MDs, that advice becomes murky when you are dealing with the DO population.

 

[fldoctorgirl]

I think its deff worth it to take a gap year or two to try and get into an MD school if someone has a high GPA (3.8+c/s) vs going the DO route. This is especially so if the person has a state MD school, as those schools tend to be anywhere from 20K-40K cheaper each year than private DO schools, which weighs out the loss of attending salary in primary care, and puts the applicant in the running for competitive specialties that pay much more than primary care like Ortho, Derm, Vascular Surg, etc.

As someone with >3.8 both c & sGPA, I just think it's hard to give one universal answer. It's honestly a really personal decision. We talk about gap years like they're no big deal-- and for a lot of people they aren't-- but for some people, another year of life just isn't worth it. This will depend on what you want out of life for yourself, so it's hard for people on an anonymous forum to really decide for others whether or not a gap year is appropriate.