Is Med School Worth It?

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Startingover123

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Hi All i was hoping to talk with a few current Med students and/or current residents. Long story short I’m an older non trad student. I would be 38 when I would potentially start med school. I’m married with three kids. We would have to move for school so we would not have any family help. I’m looking at prob 500k in debt before interest or so. Since I’m older I’m thinking of doing IM or family practice. Would this be a terrible idea? I’m starting to think the debt isn’t worth it. I have shadowed several docs and a few have mentioned the crna and PA route. One mentioned Dental but cautioned of similar debt. However, my passion lies more with being a physician. Any real world insight I would greatly appreciate. Thanks!
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I am a 20 something 3rd year without a family and a little nontrad. I can offer very little insight other than knowing that the questions below are important for anyone in a situation like yours.

My first thought is "what do you want out of life?" If it is maximizing family time, pass on medicine.
If, like it seems, you feel super passionate about medicine, I'd ask myself the following:
-Am I okay working past normal retirement age given that I have a bunch of kids and will have debt at a later age?
-Does my significant other (SO) make enough to knock down some of my debt as it accrues?
-How does my SO feel about 7+ years of seeing less of me (especially during residency)?
-How familiar am I with the current and predicted landscape of practicing medicine as a physician? (currently med student debt is the highest it has ever been and there are reasonable concerns regarding single payer or medicare for all cutting physician salaries, making med school a poor financial investment. Also see: huge midlevel encroachment + increased practice rights, huge corporate medicine)
-Can I achieve what I like most in medicine in another less grueling field?
-Is my family okay with moving for med school and residency?

There is a student at my school with a similar family situation at a similar age to you. Hasn't dropped out, doesn't seem to regret it. But also had significant medical experience prior to med school which likely made studying easier.
 
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My advice is just put everything on a return on investment (ROI) basis. In part, that is what this recent occupational ranking from US News does. In addition to the substantial financial outlay, the physician route represents a real time sink. You may find that the trade-off is not feasible starting at age 38 with a family. My recommendation would be to pursue the PA route in your case. Also look into select Anesthesiology MS programs. There is a good one here in Denver at the University of Colorado.

Good luck!

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I'm from the veterinary side, so I'm not sure if I can be much help - for some reason my email notifications latch on to "nontraditional," so I got directed here. I will say that I'm close to you in age, and a few of my friends are in their 30s or 40s and, like you, moved here with families strictly so they could do vet school. As far as the current state of medicine and whether it would be "worth it"... I couldn't tell you. Cath Up seemed to hit a lot of it pretty well.

If you just want to talk about the day-to-day reality of being a nontraditional professional student, I'm happy to discuss that. Feel free to message if you think that might help. Regardless, I do wish you well. Whether you proceed with it or decide to give up on this dream, it's incredibly difficult.
 
If your goal is primary care, I would just become a PA. Only 2-3 years of school vs 7+ years of training. You get to play a similar role as a physician when it comes to patient care and PA salaries seem to be growing every year.
 
Wjldenver said:
My advice is just put everything on a return on investment (ROI) basis. In part, that is what this recent occupational ranking from US News does. In addition to the substantial financial outlay, the physician route represents a real time sink. You may find that the trade-off is not feasible starting at age 38 with a family. My recommendation would be to pursue the PA route in your case. Also look into select Anesthesiology MS programs. There is a good one here in Denver at the University of Colorado.

Good luck!

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Thank you. Is CRNA a good route? Seems like they have autonomy and salaries are around primary care doc salaries.
 
Startingover123 said:
Thank you. Is CRNA a good route? Seems like they have autonomy and salaries are around primary care doc salaries.
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As a non-trad who's looked into alternative career paths before going into medicine, I'd say not really.
  1. The market is becoming saturated. Not at the rate of NPs, but it's a hot field for getting a high salary by working 40 hours/week, so there's a substantial move to become a CRNA. COVID probably changed that for obvious reasons, but it isn't a good enough reason for reason #2. By the time you get into the job market, the $200K+ jobs will be scarce. Travel is an option, but from a few people I know who are CRNAs, it was starting to get hard to find a nice contract ($100+/hour, no call, <45 hours/week, etc.) pre-COVID.
  2. The amount of time you're going to spend becoming a CRNA will be the same as going through medical school and a 3-4 year residency, assuming you have the pre reqs to go into medical school pretty soon. AT LEAST 7 years of work lay ahead of you, if you started pre-nursing right now this fall.
  3. CRNA school isn't exactly easy to get in, time-wise. The programs are now becoming doctorate, instead of a master's program - meaning that's 3 years of school instead of 2. You also need to get at least a year of crit care work post-BSN.
  4. Because the market is starting to saturate, schools are starting to clamp down on how many people get in.
  5. EDIT: in nursing school, the prevailing notion is to move past "just" bedside nursing by going into higher education. CRNA is, to circle back to reason #1, one of the hottest fields to do that.
Not trying to discourage you from finding the right field. Every field in healthcare has its ups and downs. It sounds to me like your passion is in being a physician. Down the line, PCPs (ACTUAL doctors) are going to only be needed more. I have my reasons that I won't state here (to keep the thread relevant to your original post), but PCP reimbursements are going up while others are slightly declining or staying stagnant.
 
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Startingover123 said:
Are you in my boat? The real reason I made this thread is all the docs I shadowed tell me not to do it. Small sample size obviously but worrisome.
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I’m actually not as non trad as you (some people might not even call me non trad at all since I took only 3 gap years). There are some people with similar situations as yours on Reddit tho. I am trying to think 10 years down the road however, since I’ve been hearing about the bleak future of primary care. Hopefully policies come to change this but idk?
 
Startingover123 said:
Thank you. Is CRNA a good route? Seems like they have autonomy and salaries are around primary care doc salaries.
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Here are the differences between an AA and a CRNA. You have a more rapid ROI as an AA and the compensation levels are comparable. (Less autonomy though.) Still, in your case, I would go the PA route. I know a number of PA's and they all are quite happy career-wise.

Difference Between CRNA and Anesthesiologist assistant

CRNA vs Anesthesiologist assistant CRNA stands for Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetist and AA stands for Anesthesiologist Assistant. Students studying under any of these fields will be giving anesthesia but there is lot of difference in
www.differencebetween.net www.differencebetween.net
 
Consider NP, at least when the midlevel bubble bursts, you will still have your RN to fall back to, unlike PA.
 
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If you have a comfortable life and are happy, then no it’s not worth it. You won’t have a comfortable and reasonable life on this path until you’re 45. This isn’t some college course on self-fulfillment and pursuing romanticized dreams. It’s an ass kicking that lasts a minimum of 7 years. And then you’re in debt and need to continue getting your ass kicked to pay it off. Then you need to make up for the last 10-12 years you haven’t been saving for retirement.
 
Med school for me is like cramming as if the test were tomorrow every single day. Is it worth it? Probably at the end, but right now, nope. Honestly, I could chill with the studying if I just wanted the pass, but we are graded.
 
I’ll offer my advice as an M1 who took a bit of time off: yeah I study a lot (8-12 hours/day week day, 6-8 hours weekends) and it’s a lot. But to be honest, any route in medicine you take will require sacrifice. Some more than others. Schooling is also hella expensive and it’s not going to go down anyway. If you’re okay with going $200K in debt AND your family supports you, then go medicine.

Also, despite having a ton of work and challenges with medical school, I love it. There’s stuff I don’t wanna do of course, but as someone who spent time out in the real world, I wouldn’t change it. We’ll see what I feel like in clinical rotations and residency; however, I’m trying to take it in stride.

PS, if there’s someone here who has a good, sustainable rhythm of studying while doing well, please PM me. I need the help
 
Neopolymath said:
If you can live in a state with anesthesiology assistants then you absolutely should do that over CRNA school. It's an excellent gig and super easy to get into compared to medicine and you don't put up with the indoctrination and BS nursing years before getting into CRNA school.
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I second this. I live in a state that has AA and they are great. They are loved by anesthesiologist. When I was shadowing, I don't think there was one person who didn't like the AAs.

I WISH I love the idea of anesthesia cause I would've done it.
 
Startingover123 said:
Hi All i was hoping to talk with a few current Med students and/or current residents. Long story short I’m an older non trad student. I would be 38 when I would potentially start med school. I’m married with three kids. We would have to move for school so we would not have any family help. I’m looking at prob 500k in debt before interest or so. Since I’m older I’m thinking of doing IM or family practice. Would this be a terrible idea? I’m starting to think the debt isn’t worth it. I have shadowed several docs and a few have mentioned the crna and PA route. One mentioned Dental but cautioned of similar debt. However, my passion lies more with being a physician. Any real world insight I would greatly appreciate. Thanks!
Click to expand...
It would be helpful to understand what you THINK the pros and cons would be for yourself and then people with experience can tell you whether or not you are correct in your assumptions and that could help you figure out if it would truly be worth it.

In your post you mention age, debt, your family, and having to move.

Age? Who cares?! I see it as starting another life again! Starting medical school this year at 39, I feel as though I've already lived a few different "lifetimes", and now this is a new life and boatload of knowledge and skills I was ready for and super stoked to start. We are still so young with at least another 2 "lifetimes" left to live after we become attendings.

500k in debt is quite significant and I wonder if you'd really need to take out that much, but that's your business. However, you can truly live well at a very frugal price during training and afterwards and pay off that debt in a few years, probably with some help of bonuses or state/federal programs, particularly if you are looking at doing primary care. Then you can put what you were putting into debt into your retirement savings if you haven't been building that up to know. And at 50 you can start putting away even more tax advantaged money than before! Debt is only scary if (1) you don't know how to live well inexpensively so you can pay it off quickly with that crazy salary (2) you get hurt and can't work anymore to pay off that debt.

Your family. How are they feeling about it and how much do they know what they are getting into? If they are supportive and informed, go for it!

Moving can be adventurous and exciting as much as it can be scary and disruptive. It all depends on attitude and organization.
 
PTPuser said:
I second this. I live in a state that has AA and they are great. They are loved by anesthesiologist. When I was shadowing, I don't think there was one person who didn't like the AAs.

I WISH I love the idea of anesthesia cause I would've done it.
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It is the best ROI of any medical field period. Do half decent in undergrad, go to 2.5 years of AA school and make 120-300k+ depending on what state and how hard you work. I have many CRNA and AA friends and if I wasn't 100% made for medicine I would have done that long ago.
 
Neopolymath said:
It is the best ROI of any medical field period. Do half decent in undergrad, go to 2.5 years of AA school and make 120-300k+ depending on what state and how hard you work. I have many CRNA and AA friends and if I wasn't 100% made for medicine I would have done that long ago.
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You can make between 120k and 300k doing AA? That’s insane. If you had to would you go crna or AA?
 
Startingover123 said:
You can make between 120k and 300k doing AA? That’s insane. If you had to would you go crna or AA?
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Yes. Even if you work 7-3 5 days a week with a morning break and a lunch break in the most populated, low paying area as an AA you will make 6 figures easily. If you take call and get a good job you can absolutely hit 200k easily and more. I can personally verify this.

CRNA has the ability to work in all fifty states and technically they have slightly more practice rights. The reality is that they don't really have any more practice rights than an AA working in any of the supervised jobs and it's just BS propaganda. Biggest drawback to AA is that they cannot practice in all states (yet.) Otherwise, AA is the superior path for those that aren't already nurses. AA is straight from college. No need for BSN or CNL nursing degree and working as a nurse in an icu for 1-2 years prior to entry into anesthesia school. You also don't have to put up with the indoctrination and terrible culture of nursing in higher education. AA is the way forward and will be welcomed by anesthesiologists working in care team models over militant crnas. AA is objectively faster and better IF you aren't geographically pigeonholed into a state AA's don't work yet. They do literally the same job in care team models everywhere so you don't miss anything by going AA.
 
I mean if you're not kidding yourself that it's your passion, and assuming you have a well controlled financial situation prior to starting (working partner, minimal/no debt, etc.).. then I'd say, given it is your passion, why not? Yea that's a lot of debt but ask your partner to commit to being the sole income for 10 years, be frugal, go into a 3 year residency, bust down for 3 years out of residency to payback your debt and suddenly yeah, you're 45, but you're 45 in your passion you can work the rest of your life. I'm M1, not non trad but I have an engineering major and am thankful on a weekly if not daily basis I had the guts to take premed work after I graduated and chase the dream. I'd say crunch the financial numbers and hope your partner has mercy on your plan/marriage and know that you are gonna miss out on family stuff. It just resonated with me that you said "physician" and "passion" in the same sentence, I mean, if you're asking for permission to chase the dream I'm not gonna say no. Make it work, or at least try to get in to school and assess afterward.
 
Startingover123 said:
Hi All i was hoping to talk with a few current Med students and/or current residents. Long story short I’m an older non trad student. I would be 38 when I would potentially start med school. I’m married with three kids. We would have to move for school so we would not have any family help. I’m looking at prob 500k in debt before interest or so. Since I’m older I’m thinking of doing IM or family practice. Would this be a terrible idea? I’m starting to think the debt isn’t worth it. I have shadowed several docs and a few have mentioned the crna and PA route. One mentioned Dental but cautioned of similar debt. However, my passion lies more with being a physician. Any real world insight I would greatly appreciate. Thanks!
Click to expand...
You just have to open up an excel spreadsheet and compare your after tax income as an attending which will be anywhere from 150-400k net a year versus other jobs.

Have the same lifestyle and annual expenditures for an apples to apples comparison. I did this when comparing medicine to engineering and other jobs.

Any reason why you would have 500k in debt "before interest?"

The average public MD school is like 36k currently so I presume your cost of living will be very high. It's not exactly fair to compare the debt incurred using loans for living costs since you would have the same living costs if you were *not* in med school or residency. You likely wouldn't have the loan interest though which would account for the disparity.

FM can easily make 250k gross even in relatively large metro areas. IM makes about 5% more than FM and hospitalists can make good money. You also may do a high-paid specialty. It doesn't take too many years working as an anesthesiologist to get financially independent. Physician on FIRE was financially independent with a stay at home wife and a few kids working in a low cost of living state after like 8 years as a gas attending.

He lives on like 60 or 70k a year.

I'm in a lower paid specialty and am projecting financial independence after about 10 years of work as an attending; alas I am much more frugal than the average bear.
 
drducky. said:
You have to put your whole life on hold for almost a decade to earn a job. That’s not worth it, especially at your age with a family.

Reminds me of the movie Click with adam sandler
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False. Your “Life” will be “on hold” for four years before making money at your career. $50k+/yr during residency is nothing to shake a fist at or discredit even if you are working 60+ hrs a week for it during that time.
 
Startingover123 said:
Hi All i was hoping to talk with a few current Med students and/or current residents. Long story short I’m an older non trad student. I would be 38 when I would potentially start med school. I’m married with three kids. We would have to move for school so we would not have any family help. I’m looking at prob 500k in debt before interest or so. Since I’m older I’m thinking of doing IM or family practice. Would this be a terrible idea? I’m starting to think the debt isn’t worth it. I have shadowed several docs and a few have mentioned the crna and PA route. One mentioned Dental but cautioned of similar debt. However, my passion lies more with being a physician. Any real world insight I would greatly appreciate. Thanks!
Click to expand...

So OP Im a 26 year old with a family who was just accepted into medical school. I would follow your desire to be a physician if you feel that it is one you can not live without.

A family member began veterinarian school at the age of 36. I will say this person has done very well for themselves. (I know medical school will be a longer commitment). This family member is currently looking at million dollar houses. (They have a family as well).

It may have already been stated as well, however I did not read through every response. What brought the urge to go to medical school on? Has it been something that you have always wanted to do but building a family took precedence? Are you okay with missing out on major milestones in your children's life?

Good luck either way and if you want this, you can do it!
 
500k of debt is an insane amount. That alone may not even make it worth it. @SLC wasnt as old as you were, but he had older kids and has talked about his experience. Hes 2-3 years post residency and could probably give you good advice on if it was worth it or not.
 
Nope not worth it. I am one of those rare residents who went to medical school for free while making about 200-300K per year as a medical student and as a resident. The time commitment is real, and I'm almost at an attending level. At this point, I'm not even sure if I'll even practice medicine for longer than 10 years post residency.

500-600K debt, with possibly healthcare being nationalized and making only 150-180K a year at the attending level. You need to reconsider your options.
 
Nah, not worth with that debt, and your family status. If you really can't do anything else, PSLF and gunning for a high paying specialty is your best bet. Hell even 500k debt after residency with tax you can pay off in 3 years with a high enough paying specialty, ones that pay 30k a month post tax.
 
Startingover123 said:
Hi All i was hoping to talk with a few current Med students and/or current residents. Long story short I’m an older non trad student. I would be 38 when I would potentially start med school. I’m married with three kids. We would have to move for school so we would not have any family help. I’m looking at prob 500k in debt before interest or so. Since I’m older I’m thinking of doing IM or family practice. Would this be a terrible idea? I’m starting to think the debt isn’t worth it. I have shadowed several docs and a few have mentioned the crna and PA route. One mentioned Dental but cautioned of similar debt. However, my passion lies more with being a physician. Any real world insight I would greatly appreciate. Thanks!
Click to expand...
500K is a bit excessive but honestly, i'd do it. This is not an easy decision and you need to make sure your family is on board. I'm more concerned of getting dumped/divorced than living frugally
 
CocoMelon0531 said:
Nope not worth it. I am one of those rare residents who went to medical school for free while making about 200-300K per year as a medical student and as a resident. The time commitment is real, and I'm almost at an attending level. At this point, I'm not even sure if I'll even practice medicine for longer than 10 years post residency.

500-600K debt, with possibly healthcare being nationalized and making only 150-180K a year at the attending level. You need to reconsider your options.
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1)how are you making that much per year? I wanna call BS
2)Wtf was the point of going into medicine then?
3)Thats not happening....salaries have been going up. Stop posting this stupid propaganda which gives SDN a bad rep

OP-med school is worth it and you can always do PSLF but you must follow their directions and read the fine print. buddy of mine got 300k forgiven
 
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Dryad8212 said:
1)how are you making that much per year? I wanna call BS
2)Wtf was the point of going into medicine then?
3)Thats not happening....salaries have been going up. Stop posting this stupid propaganda which gives SDN a bad rep

OP-med school is worth it and you can always do PSLF but you must follow their directions and read the fine print. buddy of mine got 300k forgiven
Click to expand...

It isn't hard to find out that I've made over 1.5 millions in the past year, and get a feel for my side gig and previous career based on my post history. I'm pretty sure that I've posted an attachment for proof as well.

What was the point of me going into medicine? I'll tell you. It's because I was bored with my previous job success, and wanted a different challenge. In residency, I don't think I have ever worked less than 60 hours per week.

The route of medicine sucks due to the pure time commitment and sacrifices. On top of that, I never had to take out 500-600K in debt. No, it's not worth it if you're in your late 30s. I would also argue that 500-600K is never worth it unless you know for sure that you will never have to pay back that 500-600K in debt, either via the military or once in a million chance that PSLF is available for you.
 
Not worth it.
Only 27 with 2 kids.

PA is the better route.

process sucks. Now but is bearable. I imagine your kids are in some pretty fun years. Ask yourself if you are okay missing a lot of it.

especially since the stability of medicine is in question and the “most stable” fields from a mid level standpoint are surgical and will take more time that is worth at your age.

open a chic fil A or go to PA school if you need a new challenge
 
It's up to you in the end. If you want it more than anything else, go for it... but there are better ways to have a stable life with ROI.

Med school sucks more than anything you could ever imagine. It's hard. It drains you. Would I do it again if I knew how hard it would be? Probs not. But am I happy I got through the "hardest" parts so far? Hell yeah.
 
The_RZ_Method said:
Sounds awesome. Can you elaborate on why anesthesiologists would welcome AAs more than CRNAs? Aren't they both encroachment and bad for anesthesiologists?
Click to expand...
AAs aren’t trying to gain independence from anesthesiologists. AAs function like what CRNAs were supposed to do: help the anesthesiologist with keeping the patient sedated and comfortable. Also, from what I saw a year ago or do, most require the MCAT, same pre reqs for med school, and take hard sciences just in anesthesia. To me, the knowledge base is better than CRNA. It’s just that they can’t work in all 50 states yet
 
The_RZ_Method said:
Sounds awesome. Can you elaborate on why anesthesiologists would welcome AAs more than CRNAs? Aren't they both encroachment and bad for anesthesiologists?
Click to expand...
Basically, one isn't actively trying to wage war against them. AA leadership and organizations have protections in their licensing against becoming independent and the physicians in the ASA sit on AA boards as well. This has been discussed on the anesthesia subforum at times in more detail.

Some anesthesiologists don't want to work in any supervisory role but the ones that do prefer AAs. And, sure, technically they are all a threat but this is one midlevel position that actually has barriers to just going full blown *****ic like NPs... that and their education from day 1 is to work under the leadership of physicians so they don't get that nursing indoctrination.
 
Osminog said:
There are probably far less expensive ways to flush one’s 20s down the toilet than going to medical school.
Click to expand...
You know, this is not directly related to your comment but maybe indirectly I have always wondered:
- the biggest gripe I hear about med school is people complaining about missing out on their 20s.
- ironically, I also hear that I’m your 30s it’s too late and not worth it. So is there really ever a perfect time.
 
newdoctobe said:
You know, this is not directly related to your comment but maybe indirectly I have always wondered:
- the biggest gripe I hear about med school is people complaining about missing out on their 20s.
- ironically, I also hear that I’m your 30s it’s too late and not worth it. So is there really ever a perfect time.
Click to expand...

There is never a perfect time to go to med school unless you’re fresh from undergrad. Even then, the price tag is very high unless you’re taking that HPSP. If you’re going to med school for purely money, you’re doing something wrong with your life, unless someone is paying you to go to med school for free.
 
CocoMelon0531 said:
There is never a perfect time to go to med school unless you’re fresh from undergrad. Even then, the price tag is very high unless you’re taking that HPSP. If you’re going to med school for purely money, you’re doing something wrong with your life, unless someone is paying you to go to med school for free.
Click to expand...

hardcore disagree with this.

medicine is the most sure way to get a fat paycheck. Yes you can in other fields with less time / money commitment but it’s no where close to guaranteed like it is in medicine . The time cost is so big I don’t think you should start late, but the money is great and virtually guaranteed unless you fail
 
Startingover123 said:
Hi All i was hoping to talk with a few current Med students and/or current residents. Long story short I’m an older non trad student. I would be 38 when I would potentially start med school. I’m married with three kids. We would have to move for school so we would not have any family help. I’m looking at prob 500k in debt before interest or so. Since I’m older I’m thinking of doing IM or family practice. Would this be a terrible idea? I’m starting to think the debt isn’t worth it. I have shadowed several docs and a few have mentioned the crna and PA route. One mentioned Dental but cautioned of similar debt. However, my passion lies more with being a physician. Any real world insight I would greatly appreciate. Thanks!
Click to expand...
43 when I started. Married w/ a kid in college one in middle school. Moved from one coast to the opposite for school. No family for thousands of miles around us. The only person who can tell you if it's worth it is you. It's gotta be something where you know deep down that you won't be happy being anything other than a doctor. You gotta be able to delay instantaneous gratification and play the long game if you do it. I'd caution you against going to PA school if you really feel strongly that you want to be a doctor. You'll never be happy with the limited education and need to be dependent upon a supervising physician if you go the PA route.
 
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Dreamstoo said:
160-180K without bonuses isn't too crazy sounding in some desirable locations for IM/FM just saying. Often times these are very nice gigs - 8am-4pm Monday through Thursday with a very supportive ancillary staff (by far the least toxic hospital I've rotated at). 100K loan forgiveness was guaranteed within the first year too. I think her target for her first year if she performed well was 220K.
Click to expand...

I have no clue about these 160-180k jobs for IM/FM without bonuses you're talking about.

As an attending physician I can tell you that the low-paid specialties are paying 220k at a *bare* minimum and that 250k isn't crazy to find even close to major metro areas. I lived in a few very desirable areas and made much more than 160-180k.

I have not heard of 100k in loan forgiveness for the first year. The most I've heard is 50-60 a year.
 
You’re not going to make “doctor money” as a JD unless you go to a top 10 school and then work ungodly number of hours a week in a large city for 10-15 years to make partner. Then you’ll make good money, so really it takes away more (or a comparable amount) of your life than medical school + residency.

I don’t know where these 200k+ PharmD jobs are located, but there’s an entire forum on here dedicated to pharm and all they do is talk about oversaturation and how all the jobs left are under 100k in some major retail chain where you’re treated like crap.

I’m older than you OP, have kids, married, and I’m in my first year. It’s worth it to me to go down this road, but only you can say if it’s worth it to you.
 
I’ll just ad, we have a 50 year old in my class. Plenty of sound advice here, ultimately it’s your call and anything is doable just decide whether it’s worth it to you or not
 
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