Is Med School Worth It?

anonymouskoala28 · Jan 26, 2021

Sorry if this was already said. I’m not a nontraditional student, but if you want IM or FM then there’s several schools that offer a year off of medical school and so you graduate in 3 years instead of 4. Something to think about. CRNA - maybe less debt but unless you’re an RN already you’ll have to go through nursing school first then an additional depending on program 3ish years I think it is CRNA school. IMO just do med school at that point. I would definitely recommend PA at your age however.

I would also add do what makes you happy. You only have one life. If you want to be a doctor... BE A DOCTOR!!

Enik · Jan 26, 2021

Saw your post and wanted to reply. Honestly yes, I started later in life and knew i wouldn't be done with residency till I'm late 30s. However, med school has been a great experience. Challenging yes, but getting in is the hardest part. Once you're in its almost impossible to fail out (4/200 people in my class did not finish. Residency will be rough but with enough support from family its all very doable. There are residents in their 40s that I work with with kids and they all are ultimately happy with their decision. Would I be just as happy if I chose a different career say being a PA? I don't know... Return on investment wise probably makes more sense but being a doc is a great feeling.

TableMD · Jan 26, 2021

Im a sport med doc, trained in primary care.

I absolutely understand the fear of being a "sucker" for wanting primary care when there is a PA/NP option that is much shorter.

As an attending, I cannot imagine practicing primary care without general training in Peds, IM (esp outpatient focused IM) or family med.

Usually the people who talk about primary care being "replaced" are specialists who have no real working insight into primary care and I certainly heard the same thing in my academic mothership med school.

If you are inclined to do primary care, talk to real primary care docs out in the community and go to a primary care focused facility that trains residents.

I started med school at age 28.

Good luck

Tiberius310 · Jan 26, 2021

I am a 1st year family medicine intern. I am 47 years old married with 4 kids age 3-9. It depends on a lot of factors. For me, when I was faced with that decision I went for it. I didn’t care about the debt or the naysayers. It was a very difficult road but I would do it again because I am passionate about medicine and my wife and family support me. If you set the goal and are willing to achieve your goal doing whatever it takes. I say go for it and don’t look back.

Amberray · Jan 26, 2021

I am 33, married and a mom of 1 in my post bacc program. I will apply to Med School at 35 and hopefully be starting at 36.

cabinbuilder · Jan 26, 2021

I went to medical school at age 32. 2 kids at the time were ages 2 and 5. I have no family. It was very hard. My husband ran the house and took care of the kids. I was very strict about my time and study group getting down to business. My debt out of med school was 250K. I graduated 14 years ago and have 150K left to pay on it. It took me 10 years out of residency to really get things going and making good money >300K. I did family practice residency and have never had an issue with job offers. Primary care is in very high demand at this time however, you may not have the luxury of starting where you want to be. It takes time to get experience, etc. I have not regretted my path. My advise is to get into the least expensive medical school you can. No one every asks you where you went to school and they generally don't care. No one ever asked me what my grades where in med school. It comes down to passing the boards and being board certified. That's it.

BAtoDO · Jan 26, 2021

My opinion is that if you can satiate your needs to work in healthcare with any other career, do that career. Medical school is brutal. Just to put things into perspective: I came home after an exam one day and told my daughter that I didn’t have to study that night. She literally started dancing around the house and called her grandma to tell her that I didn’t have to study and was able to play with her. There’s a tremendous amount of guilt being a mom In medicine, knowing that your entire family is sacrificing just for you to do what you want.
That being said, if you can’t find any other field that will make you feel fulfilled, complete etc. thank you need to pursue medicine. At the end of the day, I feel like it’s better for my kids to sacrifice e having their mom around for 10 years than for them to have to live with a mom who’s miserable for the rest of their lives.

Yo.Adrian · Jan 26, 2021

8 year RT. I have met plenty of doctors when asked this question that preferred midlevel due to time/money/responsibility yet have never met a midlevel that regretted their decision. That debt will follow you like a bad ex down the road. Also traveling RTs & RNs are making well over $200k due to the current healthcare climate working only around 4 12hr shifts. Have to consider different areas of life, not just professional.

Keep2r · Jan 26, 2021

3rd year resident and soon to be cardiology fellow here.

Financially, the best decision would be to go the mid-level provider route. PA school will get you out and practicing the fastest with a decent salary. Becoming a CRNP will take longer from what I’ve heard from the nurses in the procedure suites, sounds like the job market might not be as good in the future either.

That being said, if you truly are passionate about becoming a physician, I say go for it. My dad did residency when he was 40, finished fellowship at the age of 45 and is now leading his own pathology group at the age of 50. He’s still planning to go 10-20 more years. The medical training is definitely tough and will take dedication but it is doable if you have the strength and willpower. But make sure to think deeply about how much you’re willing to sacrifice to get there. I have missed many important events and memories with my friends/family due to the requirements of med school and residency. You won’t truly know hell until you get to residency either because med school is a joke. It would be a huge mistake to finish medical school and realize this isn’t for you.

Blowflu · Jan 26, 2021

33 years old now, will be 35 before I reach my first attending job.

My route was slightly non-traditional in that I did basic science research in between my college graduation and medical school start (3 years). Medical school was 4 years, residency plus a chief year was another 4, and I have 2.5 years left of a fellowship (Peds EM).

I think each person's journey through this process is incredibly personal and should always be a decision made with plenty of thought and advice. There are things I would tell you, and anyone, considering a career as a physician:

1.) Your interest in medicine needs to be as close to absolute as possible in my opinion. Medical School requires an extreme amount of studying in the first 2 years (at times 8-12 hours a day for months on end). Although 3rd and 4th years are far better, you'll then enter residency where (depending on what you go into) you will have another 1-3 years of call, long hours on the floor or in the OR, and time away from anyone that exists outside hospital grounds. The dedication this will take is like nothing you will ever experience, and having to go through this thinking "well, I coulda had that nice sales job..." is a recipe for burnout and disaster.

2.) Realistically, what is your financial situation and what standard of living are you willing to accept? You are already married with 3 children, and you have a responsibility as a husband and as a father to help provide. For 4 years of medical school, you will not be able to hold any job. During residency and fellowship, you will be making in the 50k range for salary. If you are thinking of going $500,000 into debt to finance this decision, you should not be depending on loan forgiveness or other magical options. Furthermore, you need to consider that the areas of medicine you're passionate about (FM/IM) are not high paying.

3.) What types of schools are your grades allowing you to apply for? If you're competitive for US MD schools, or even most US DO schools (I am a DO myself), that is a great start. With respect to the Caribbean schools, if they are all you are competitive for, these will only increase your debt and stigma you may face after graduation. You need to know what your competitiveness can be, as the process of matching seems to get tougher and tougher. You stated you may have to move for school. A move a few hours away isn't as dramatic as a move to a remote area of the country...or another country altogether. Having family close to you can be enabled by your competitiveness, and you don't want that tide against you when you go for residency/fellowship.

For my personal journey, being a physician is about the only thing I wanted to do since high school. Despite having this singular goal for most of my life, there have been plenty of times where I've questioned myself and why I was having to work so hard. There is nothing as rewarding as being in this field, and there is nothing like having that trust and responsibility in your hands to deliver care.

Consider the above, and talk about this with your family. Make the decision that will fulfil you passion, but be sure to consider the impact.

Bonefish · Jan 26, 2021

Not a student/resident, but sitting in your shoes somewhat... About to be 34, daughter is a little over 1... That being said, I have been trying to get into medical school for 3 years now with no luck due to my undergrad GPA. If you manage to get offered a seat, you should jump on it. I can tell you that I have been battling with the "when is enough, enough" question... How many years will I try to get in before looking at PA? The bar is rising every year. My 504 MCAT which was "acceptable" is now the baseline... GPAs are getting higher... applications are increasing...

Consider spending another 1-3 years simply getting to the interview table before even staring up the 6+ year mountain, only to be paid one of the lowest wages for a physician, and some of the highest student debt I have ever seen (seriously why 500k?) I would be going mid-level if I wanted to do family practice. Just my opinion, I hope you gain some clarity here.

N2B8TR · Jan 26, 2021

I was 35 when I started medical school. My 3 kids were young and my wife was concerned. We sold our house and started the journey in another location. There were many ups and down in medical school. My wife was essentially a single mother for most of it. There were times I would just look at myself and wonder if I made the right decision, but at the end of school and being in residency now I can say it was totally worth it. In residency the schedule is harsh but there is more family time, my kids are used to the schedule from medical school, and I can enjoy more of the things they do (within reason), we are able to look back on the journey with a sense of accomplishment and some great memories. This s##t is hard and being an older student with responsibilities means there is a lot of juggling. If your significant other is not on board, and not up to the challenge, then the marriage will fail. I saw this with a few classmates who were married without children. No one really understands the time commitment or pressure that is put on you in medical school (personal and external), it can become unbearable without the right mindset. If you are already doubting the debt or the worth of school then don't do it. There is nothing wrong with being a PA, an NP, a CRNA, or continuing in your current career. Just remember it is never just about you when you have a family, there has to be buy in, otherwise the family will suffer and in turn you will suffer. Good Luck either way.

Skydark · Jan 26, 2021

34-year-old M2 here. Studying for Step is a challenge for yourself as a human being and med school only seems to get harder on your soul as you progress through it. I ask myself this question every day lately: Is this worth it? And while I don't think it's worth it, I think it fully depends on what your goals are in life. One of the main reasons why I chose med school was the pursuit of knowledge. While I hate having to study like a machine every day, I also love being able to talk to friends and colleagues about all the material I learned and retrospectively appreciate how much knowledge I have picked up along the way. I love being able to see a clinical vignette and be able to identify what the patient has, how they got it and what we can do about it (oftentimes the answer is supportive aka 'not much'). Don't do it for the money, have the expectation that you won't be working as long -thus not making as much money in the long run- as your fellow peers who are 15 years younger than yourself. Even if I dropped out of med school tomorrow, I will leave knowing I picked up a lot of medical knowledge along the way so, is it worth it? That's up to you.

petomed · Jan 26, 2021

I'm a nontrad, hoping to matriculate in 2022. I'm 31 now, so would be 33 at that time. I too have a spouse and kiddo and have done math similar to yours. Others somehow seem to misunderstand your 500k number, so I just wanted to elaborate on where that comes from.

You have three kids and will be moving away from your family infrastructure for medical school. This means you have two options for childcare: (1) your spouse doesn't work (assuming one or more of your kids aren't in school), or (2) you send your kid(s) to daycare. My spouse and I pay $1,300/mo for daycare for one kid. This is a prohibitive price if you have several kids. So, I venture you will end up with option 1, your spouse not working. The implication here is that the OP's family is living entirely on the living stipend their medical school has deemed reasonable for the area.

So let's answer that question of debt. I'll lay it out for everyone here because it's very straightforward. Unless you're lucky and have a cheap in-state school option, or receive significant scholarship--you will be taking out the total cost of attendance. I would put this at 65k + 25K, on average. That's 65k per year for medical school tuition + 25k per year for living expenses. This is 90k/yr of medical school. Let's see how that works out with the current Grad Plus interest rate of 5.3%.

Year 1: 90k
Year 2: 90*1.053 + 90 = 185k
Year 3: 185*1.053 + 90 = 285k
Year 4: 285*1.053 + 90 = 390k

Alright, medical school is done so we're finished taking out loans. So what's your minimum payment? Assuming you've got 20 years to repay and you're at $390,000, your minimum monthly payment will be $2,649/mo. Maybe all your kids are in school now, maybe some are still daycare age. I'll assume the situation hasn't changed, meaning you can't make any payments right now. This is critical, because now compound interest kills you during residency, which is assumed to be 4 years.

Year 1: 390*1.053 = 410k
Year 2: 410*1.053 = 432k
Year 3: 432*1.503 = 455k
Year 4: 455*1.053 = 479k

A couple crucial assumptions here but they are not unrealistic at all for families that require childcare. The math gets much worse if your loans have interest rate beyond 5.3%. Make an excel spreadsheet, it's awful.

If you think you're going to have the same path as a cookie-cutter peer, you're wrong. You will need to live cheap, or work long hours, or grind somewhere you don't want to be--in order to pay down the debt. You can do this in a couple years straight out of medical school and then have complete freedom to work as you please. Or you can ride the debt for much longer, immediately begin building back up your 401k, and not work in the pits. But make no mistake, if you go down the road of requiring a self-driving Tesla, a mansion as your home, and someone to mow your grass--you will pay for it in dollars. If you go down the road of optimizing family time over finances, you won't retire on time. It's a spectrum and you need to determine what makes you and your family happy. We are all owned by the same equation: time = money. The best thing you can do for yourself is to minimize the amount of money you require.

Let's say your family requires 100k for the year but you make a doc's salary of 200k. You're making twice as much as you need. The implications of that are huge. This means you can actually work half as much (in the right setting) to meet your family's needs. If that 200k salary requires 60 hrs/wk, you only need to work 30 hrs/wk (assuming pay rate is the same). So, contrary to popular belief, you can actually have more time with your family once you pay down your debt.

So, is this a terrible idea? A mentor of mine once told me a story about a man he knew growing up. These two grew up on an island in Greece, where fishing has been the primary way of life ever since people came to the island. The man spent his career chartering big ships to catch swaths of fish, eventually retiring as Captain. Throughout his career he spent months at a time away at sea but was paid extremely well both during his career and during retirement. As you can imagine, this came at the expense of tons of family time and he really missed out on seeing his kids grow up. Retirement came and went and he was fast approaching the end of his life and he became deeply depressed. 'What have I done with my life? What am I leaving behind?' My mentor said those words haunted the man until his death.

OP, when you imagine yourself old and nearing the end, will you be satisfied with the choice of foregoing medicine? That's the question you're most likely able to answer now because you've been living the non-medicine life for several years. If you truly feel you won't be fulfilled, then you have to pursue medicine.

As to whether you will regret choosing medicine after you retire, only time can tell.

never-too-late · Jan 26, 2021

I am a little older than you, and I have 3 kids, but I am not currently married, so my circumstances are similar but not the same, just to give you a sense.

I never asked this question. The thought never crossed my mind. I simply knew that if I didn't try, I would never be satisfied. I'm glad I have that. I can't tell you how hard and how lonely this first year of medical school has been. I think if I had any sense that I could do something else and be happy with that, I would have given up. Your family and your education are going to be pulling at you in different directions. It's really hard. and nobody in your life is going to understand the pressures you are under.

Rather than "is it worth it", I think you should ask "can I be happy doing something else" and if you can, do that thing.

Good luck!

Eye-eye · Jan 26, 2021

Something isn't adding up for me here. You say medicine is your passion, but later say you'll probably do primary care because the residency is short. That makes no sense to me. If you're going into it because of passion, a 3 year residency vs a 6 year residency shouldn't be that big of a difference. You may not know your passion in medicine, but there's a decent chance you'll love something (at least better than everything else), which may or may not have a short residency. And even if you did IM, you might find a passion for cardiology or something during residency. Are you going to then go for your passion, or make the past 7 years somewhat pointless by not following that passion to its natural conclusion? Don't pidgeonhole yourself. All I'm saying is that if you're going in with the assumption that it's only 7 years, I'd assume instead that it's whatever you end up wanting that you're going to do, whether it's 7 or 11 years by then end - you'll be happier as an attending in a field you like than one you don't.

Also, if finances are overly concerning to you, things like ophtho and derm have 4 year residencies, much better QoL/hours/call responsibilities, and can pay much better than your average employed PCP gig. Don't pick those just for the money or for the shortness of the residency, please. I'm just saying that wanting to get out quick =/= having to be a PCP if you realize at some point that you don't want to do that.

Now, I realize none of this answered your question. But perhaps frame it instead as "am I willing to give my all to this - time, energy, sacrifice with family, finances - and for as many years as it may take depending on what I end up liking most in medicine, or is that too big a sacrifice?"

Pembrolizumab · Jan 26, 2021

If you were 10 years younger my answer would have been different. But looking at your situation I would say it’s not worth it.

Too much debt, plus you are also missing on atleast 4 years of income, plus 3 years of sub par pay. That’s 7 years which will put you at 45. PA route is shorter and you will be earning earlier with much less debt.

Knight in shining armor · Jan 26, 2021

I’m a fourth year student. In my class, we have at least two students who are older than 40. One is going into EM and and is going into FM. Both have families and one even has grandkids. They both are happy with their decision.

ronberasa · Jan 26, 2021

Follow your passion. Know your purpose.

Bananagaurd15 · Jan 26, 2021

I am in a similar situation, but I am in medical school (OMS II). I am married, my wife works full time and I have a two-year-old and a 6-year-old. This will be my second career after working in EMS, and tissue recovery. I've always wanted to be a physician but It took me a very long time to figure out how to be a good student, in addition to a few other things. I have had to pick and scratch and claw to get an acceptance (all though not as difficult a time others have had), and I pretty much would have flown to the moon and back if I had to (obviously a hyperbole).

To answer your question Let me put it like this... If you have any reservations, that's your answer. Medical school is hard, having a family and everything else makes it even harder. while at the same time my kids and my wife motivate the hell out of me. When I see my daughter dressing her dolls and stuff in white coats it's a motivator. Even without family motivation, however, I am here on a mission, planning on going into pediatrics, and want to have the biggest impact I can have. The kind of impact I wanted to have earlier in my life in an earlier career but couldn't for obvious reasons. The debt is always an issue, time is always an issue but in the grand scheme of things i believe they don't have big an impact as we think they do

Pmr.attendingdoc · Jan 26, 2021

I am a non traditional but started at around 29. I am now an attending but no job at this time. I feel medicine is not the same as it may have been before. It’s no longer a career with personal satisfaction. There is a lot of burn out in the field across all specialties. Patients now have higher demands and expectations. Medicine has become a big business and physicians have no control over it. They are hired and fired like in any other job. A physician spends more time on the computer then with a patient. I think it is no longer worth it to be a physician for reasons below.
High burnout
Market saturation
Continuously decreasing reimbursement
Increased BS documentation requirements
Increased patient demands
High initial investment
Overburdening training and constant examinations
if laws continuously change to affect doctors negatively, there will be a huge doctor shortage in the future but may be this is what the people at the top want.

Sthpawslugger · Jan 26, 2021

In short, I started med school the day I turned 37. I'm now about 3 months away from graduating. Looking back, no, I don't think it was worth it. There are tons of other opportunities in life where you can have a direct impact on the physical, mental, and spiritual wellness of others without having to put your spouse and kids second, give up a stable career, leaving your social and emotional support network of family and friends, requiring your family to move for pre-clinicals, clinicals, and again for residency. PM me if you want to talk more. I'd be glad to even talk over the phone if you'd like.

Sthpawslugger · Jan 26, 2021

Sthpawslugger · Jan 26, 2021

In short, I started med school the day I turned 37. I'm now about 3 months away from graduating. Looking back, no, I don't think it was worth it. There are tons of other opportunities in life where you can have a direct impact on the physical, mental, and spiritual wellness of others without having to put your spouse and kids second, give up a stable career, leaving your social and emotional support network of family and friends, requiring your family to move for pre-clinicals, clinicals, and again for residency, and so on. PM me if you want to talk more. I'd be glad to even talk over the phone

cismodules · Jan 26, 2021

I am 38 in my first year of residency. In my class there were probably 6 of us of a similar age. 1 of them is going to end up taking 2 extra years due to step 1 and step 2 issues. He will have a difficult time matching once he graduates. 2 went into EM, graduated in 4 years and matched happy. 1 graduated in 4, went into FP, matched happy. Another graduated in 4, match into psych. I graduated in 4, matched radiology. I'd say 2 or 3 of us regret doing it. I myself am on the fence. I am glad I am where I am (especially when intern year is done), but the decision whether or not to go to med school was sure a lot closer than I thought it was at the time. I can't speak for everyone, but those that definitely regret doing it probably didn't realize the misery involved. It just not a happy time going through the at least 7 years of training. Right now, I should be doing step 3 questions and trying to get some sleep before switching to nights in the ICU this evening. It sucks. I thought that I needed to be a doc because I wouldn't be happy doing anything else. Turns out, I'm happy when I am able to spend time with my family and pursuing my various interests outside work. There are many in this career that live and breath medicine, both at work and at home. Those are the folks that wouldn't be happy doing anything else. Me... I could have been happy doing other things. I just didn't know it at the time.

Edit: Just remembered there was another 35+ person that started with us, she ended up dropping out after year 1. Also should mention that I'd bet over 50% of all the folks are on SSRIs now.

TragicalDrFaust · Jan 26, 2021

I’m a 28yo OMS1. Agree with others that 500k seems like more than you would need to take out, depending on your and your partner’s financial situation. I’m very happy in school and didn’t go into medicine for the money. That is probably the determining factor for an older non trad, since youll be breaking even later in life and won’t have as much time to get “rich” from the career. Keep in mind there’s a sampling bias when you speak to current middle aged or older physicians, who may have gone into the profession when there was massive salary growth, less paperwork, fewer large hospitals and not as many advanced care providers (PAs, NPs etc).

Edited to add my age

gtrkid213 · Jan 26, 2021

Hey there

I was older when I started medical school and well aware of opportunity costs, debt, etc.

For what it's worth going to medical school in Texas was one of the best decisions I've ever made. I would really strongly encourage you to consider moving down here for a few years to get state residency and then apply. Paying $160K total ($20K/tuition, $25K cost of living) for my education made a huge difference when it came to stress levels and choosing a specialty.

CRNA isn't a bad route but if you are smart enough to be a doctor you will not like working under other docs all the time.

Methodnike · Jan 26, 2021

May I ask why ?

shouldvestudied · Jan 26, 2021

Far too many people in this thread are focusing on whether or not medical school is the optimal financial decision when that is the least important aspect that you should be considering.

Fundamentally this decision comes down to whether or not your partner and kids are going to be alright with you being an absentee parent for 7-9 years.

Is your partner okay being the sole breadwinner for 4 years while also being the one primarily responsible for cooking/cleaning/taking care of the kids? Will your partner be okay being neglected for close to a decade?

Are your kids going to be okay only having your attention for an hour or less a day once you're past MS2? How are they (and you) going to feel when you miss significant milestones and celebrations in their lives?

The only way medical school is going to work for you is if, understanding the immense costs they're going to have to pay over the next decade, your family is on board.

newdoctobe · Jan 26, 2021

As a 35 yr old MS1 with kids, reading this thread is most certainly scary.

MissRibeye · Jan 26, 2021

I want to better understand what people mean by the “misery” of the training years. Is it true misery no matter what or does mindset/perspective or specialty help?

Robthebob · Jan 26, 2021

Hello hello. It's tough to be in that position, and it's a difficult decision to make.

Ultimately, its a difficult choice and you have to weigh options: spend 4 years of medical school adn 3-4 years for IM/FP and am a non-existent parent/partner... or, do a 2 year PA program and do almost the same thing as what you'd be doing in FP. CRNA would be more surgical specialty, but it's still a 4 year BSN, then a 4 year PhD in CRNA (in most places as per my old CRNAs), which would be the same time as medical school.

You also need to look at work/life balance. Are your kids grown? Young? Because shift work would be a benefit of IM and FP, but that is PA / NP route. What about autonomy? Do you wish to do what you want, or do you want some autonomy but someone to fall back to?

Ultimately, to me, Med school is worth it, even as a non-traditional, military, career changer at 31 years old now. However, in my opinion I would suggest looking at PA due to the debt, work life balance, being a parent and spouse. Talk to your spouse, and see what they think.

What degree do you have? If you already have a BA in science field and have taken MCAT? If you dont have either completed, I would not suggest med school.

Startingover123 · Jan 26, 2021

You all have been amazing. Thanks so much for taking the time to give me advice. I truly appreciate it.

This post is what I’ve been worrying the most about. I know med school is time consuming and difficult but I guess I didn’t realize how much.

I figured the last two years you would have a little more free time with rotations? That isn’t the case?

I really don’t know how people swing it financially. The COA is locked in and I cannot get any additional loans. I’m currently making 70k~ in my sales job currently. I’m not how I could possible make up the difference for four years.

Startingover123 · Jan 26, 2021

Hey thanks for the info! I have a BA so the last few years I have been taking my pre reqs at night after work. It’s been rough balancing that and work. I have physics and biochem left to take. I’m starting to think CRNA would be best since it’s an accelerated BSN in 16 months. Then I can at least work for a year or two and make money before applying to CRNA school. PA/NP are cool too but I worry about saturation. I really wanted to make this thread because I’ve shadowed five you get docs and they all said don’t do it. Haha so that was a major red flag for me.

Can you go into a little more detail how time consuming/difficult med school is? Prob a dumb question but I really don’t think us pre meds really know or understand.

Sorry I forgot to answer your question. I currently have a 4 month old, 3 year old, and 5 year old.

CocoMelon0531 · Jan 26, 2021

You will never have any chill time throughout your medical school years, unless you're talking about Jan to June during your fourth year after interviews.

In residency, regardless of your speciality, you should expect to work on average 75-80h per week. You can def be consistently over the hours limit if you're not efficient among your peers.

YogiDoc3 · Jan 26, 2021

Go for it! My bf just started last year is 39 years old. If your family is supportive it can happen. People said the same thing to him about other option which nothing wrong with that if you really want that but if your passion is to get your MD/DO then don’t settle for anything else. I had a few people in my class in their 40s with kids. It’s hard work and won’t be easy but graduating from my residency this year it was all completely worth it. Good luck!

Robthebob · Jan 26, 2021

Hey Startingover123,

Ill shoot you a private message so you can ask questions and I can answer without spamming the forum.

Startingover123 · Jan 26, 2021

I was thinking that but they can only
Practice in a few states.

Tachymeter · Jan 26, 2021

To be honest as someone who is currently 36, I don't know if its worth it to start med school at 38. I started med school at 23, finished residency at 30 and have been practicing for 6 years. All I know is I could not bring myself to do this again from the beginning starting at my current age. For you just completing med school would put you at 42. 45 after completing a residency. The time investment on a day to day basis is huge during those 7 years and will be hard on your family. The debt will be tremendous as well. Assuming probably in the range of 400k in debt it would take you 10 years to pay off your loans paying at least 3500 a month. Obviously there are other repayment plans that extend the time and reduce the payments. But you wouldn't want to be paying it off till you're 65.

If medicine is what you were born for then go for it and even then think about being a PA. Also talk with a financial advisor and they can talk with you about what you're really getting into.

Those are my thoughts.

np2002 · Jan 26, 2021

As a nontrad who will be applying to med schools as a 30 year old, this thread got me spooked. Not enough to run away from my lifetime goal of becoming a physician, but still terrifying since I want to work in primary care

seeingthru · Jan 26, 2021

I got some SERIOUS advice for you as one who started med sch at 32, residency at 38 (had a couple of yrs off) -- I will outright say this is a *terrible* idea given your family situation as I did not have my family DURING med sch but did start one after my internship. You will NEVER be able to get the years spent with your kids back - ever! - and I treasure the time I have with my kids (9 and 5). You will be putting yourself and your family under a LOT of stress - you from all the work and NOT being with your fam and your fam from not having you around and having to deal with everything (and grow together - without you). Its not JUST the med sch yrs its also the residency yrs that will make the stress of med sch look like it was a cakewalk in terms of mental energy of having to take care of sick ppl. As one who was in psych, I know I would not have liked IM or FP but they both have it harder than a psych residency IMHO. ALSO it is COMPELTELY overrated with respect to the path of PAs because now PAs do practically 98% of what MDs do WITHOUT the same laibility - they were ALWAYS much happier,, less stressed, able to change specialties (something MDs in residency CANNOT do) and can still make a 6 figure income while being IN DEMAND because of the all the healthcare cost-cutting and desire for lowest cost provider for the problem involved ie most all general practice related pathology - common illnesses are common and unique cases goto the specialists. PAs also have just 2 yrs of class (MUCH less debt) and are working after the 2 yrs. MDs will not be getting a positive cashflow withrespect to their debt years after finishing residency. This is to say NOTHING of the costs and stress involved in actually GETTING a residency in a place you want (rarely happens) and the big question marks of where when you might get interviews and other related costs both financial and psychological and emotionally VERY taxing. I really say this with all honesty bec yrs ago I always was encouraging anyone who wanted to goto med sch to do so as I was very unsure myself and I had my resaons for doing so but in hindsight, knowing what I know now I would have done PA and be done quickly and working quickly without the debt and getting a very decent income even for a family such as yours. I'm happy to have you send a personal email to ekalam at yah00 d0t c0m for more. Maybe its devine providence that I see this sdn question come to my email (I don't recall really ever getting them) and for me to give some insight (as much as you want really if you email) because I want to spare you AND YOUR FAMILY the stress and time you will be apart during the whole process that has now - esp in the time of covid non-sense hysterically deranged insane response by gov and media -- become honestly NOT worth it. Email and we can chat more extensively if you like. I went to med sch for noble reasons I like to think and the personal challenge and my ego was not wanting to be anything other than the "top dog" that the buck stops at - lemme tell you that is all nonsense given the wide latitude that PAs get and - yes respect is still different for MDs but its bs in the end if you are both doing the same thing while as an MD you are the one not able to be with your family any where near as much as the PA or RN etc. Email if you want because I haven't even touch on the issue of the very BAD medicine that is practiced - in terms of the science - for example high cholesterol being nonsense but you are trained to give mitochondrial toxins to lower cholesterol that has NOTHING to do with CV disease, ex being trained to spend 99.9% of your time with DB patients (supposedly having a chronic progressive disease) adjusting meds and monitoring glucose and A1c levels etc when what you are SUPPOSED to be doing - medical science-wise and ethically - is to TREAT the DB until they are no longer with diab BY TEACHING how to eat and NOT be needing further insulin (keto and animal based low carb diets) etc etc I can name a few examples in internal med that will NEGATE what IM is doing and show how medicine in the US is really the disease management business as pharma thinks its best 9for their bottom line). And as far as psychiatry? ALL repeat *ALL* psych "meds" are outright neurotoxins and VERY DANGEROUS and you are reading a response from a person who resigned at the END of residency related to the degree of bs and fraud in psych. Email if you (or anyone reading this) wants more REAL world insight. best wishes and imho serious overhaul is needed healthcare before I would ever advise someone to go to med sch. GL

daehanminguk · Jan 26, 2021

Hm, at the end of the day, aside from other factors, go with what your heart. If I could, I would choose becoming a physician over pharmacy.

seeingthru · Jan 26, 2021

Hi startingover123

I'm a non-trad myself and I got some SERIOUS advice for you as one who started med sch at 32, residency at 38 (had a couple of yrs off) -- I will outright say this is a *terrible* idea given your family situation as I did not have my family DURING med sch but did start one after my internship. You will NEVER be able to get the years spent with your kids back - ever! - and I treasure the time I have with my kids (9 and 5). You will be putting yourself and your family under a LOT of stress - you from all the work and NOT being with your fam and your fam from not having you around and having to deal with everything (and grow together - without you). Its not JUST the med sch yrs its also the residency yrs that will make the stress of med sch look like it was a cakewalk in terms of mental energy of having to take care of sick ppl. As one who was in psych, I know I would not have liked IM or FP but they both have it harder than a psych residency IMHO. ALSO it is COMPELTELY overrated with respect to the path of PAs because now PAs do practically 98% of what MDs do WITHOUT the same laibility - they were ALWAYS much happier,, less stressed, able to change specialties (something MDs in residency CANNOT do) and can still make a 6 figure income while being IN DEMAND because of the all the healthcare cost-cutting and desire for lowest cost provider for the problem involved ie most all general practice related pathology - common illnesses are common and unique cases goto the specialists. PAs also have just 2 yrs of class (MUCH less debt) and are working after the 2 yrs. MDs will not be getting a positive cashflow withrespect to their debt years after finishing residency. This is to say NOTHING of the costs and stress involved in actually GETTING a residency in a place you want (rarely happens) and the big question marks of where when you might get interviews and other related costs both financial and psychological and emotionally VERY taxing. I really say this with all honesty bec yrs ago I always was encouraging anyone who wanted to goto med sch to do so as I was very unsure myself and I had my resaons for doing so but in hindsight, knowing what I know now I would have done PA and be done quickly and working quickly without the debt and getting a very decent income even for a family such as yours. I'm happy to have you send a personal email to ekalam at yah00 d0t c0m for more. Maybe its devine providence that I see this sdn question come to my email (I don't recall really ever getting them) and for me to give some insight (as much as you want really if you email) because I want to spare you AND YOUR FAMILY the stress and time you will be apart during the whole process that has now - esp in the time of covid non-sense hysterically deranged insane response by gov and media -- become honestly NOT worth it. Email and we can chat more extensively if you like. I went to med sch for noble reasons I like to think and the personal challenge and my ego was not wanting to be anything other than the "top dog" that the buck stops at - lemme tell you that is all nonsense given the wide latitude that PAs get and - yes respect is still different for MDs but its bs in the end if you are both doing the same thing while as an MD you are the one not able to be with your family any where near as much as the PA or RN etc. Email if you want because I haven't even touch on the issue of the very BAD medicine that is practiced - in terms of the science - for example high cholesterol being nonsense but you are trained to give mitochondrial toxins to lower cholesterol that has NOTHING to do with CV disease, ex being trained to spend 99.9% of your time with DB patients (supposedly having a chronic progressive disease) adjusting meds and monitoring glucose and A1c levels etc when what you are SUPPOSED to be doing - medical science-wise and ethically - is to TREAT the DB until they are no longer with diab BY TEACHING how to eat and NOT be needing further insulin (keto and animal based low carb diets) etc etc I can name a few examples in internal med that will NEGATE what IM is doing and show how medicine in the US is really the disease management business as pharma thinks its best 9for their bottom line). And as far as psychiatry? ALL repeat *ALL* psych "meds" are outright neurotoxins and VERY DANGEROUS and you are reading a response from a person who resigned at the END of residency related to the degree of bs and fraud in psych. Email if you (or anyone reading this) wants more REAL world insight. best wishes and imho serious overhaul is needed healthcare before I would ever advise someone to go to med sch. GL

karamoon · Jan 26, 2021

I am a non-trad too, and I have had the same concerns as you. If you are interested in doing research, some schools have programs that are funded via NIH. If you are accepted into the program, you could be eligible for a free ride providing that you commit to being a physician-researcher or CRP (Clinical Research Physician).

Startingover123 · Jan 26, 2021

Haha I feel you on that. This advice is pretty similar to what I got from the docs I shadowed as well. I started off wanting to do ER, but I’m told their job market looks bad moving fwd.

Startingover123 · Jan 26, 2021

Thanks! I should of prob noted this earlier but my only real chance are DO schools so that’s why I figured my only option is primary care. I don’t think DO schools have many research opportunities unfortunately.

Startingover123 · Jan 26, 2021

Thank you! I think I really needed to hear this.

Gonio5 · Jan 26, 2021

I see several issues. Debt issue. Family issue. CRNA/PA issue. Interest in medical school issue. Internal medicine and family medicine issue. Each should be evaluated separately as well as evaluated as in an overall picture.

Debt issue. Only you know your true financial picture. Is a military scholarship or NHSC possible? Can parents, with the consent of your siblings (if any), loan you your inheritance early? Apply to all the cheaper schools?

Family issue. Be happy. You have kids. Wife can help which is better than if you were a single parent.

CRNA/PA? The preparation for and dedication of physicians are not exceeded or even equaled. Nurses, in particular, have a very shift work like mentality. If an operation is going badly, when it's break time, they rip off and gowns and don't care. If an operation if nearly finished, they will again rip off their sterile gown and leave even if the replacement just has to throw away the used drapes and wheel the patient away. That doesn't mean nurses are crazed murderers, but the ratio of dedication to patient versus self is different.

As a MD, you can be at the pinnacle of expertise in your field. A PA cannot. For example, a PA in an orthopedic office may, over time, have a good feeling of the routine flow of the office but does not have the training nor experience to be the best.

Going to medical school, your extended family will benefit from your expertise. I heard of a patient who died because they absolutely refused an IV. "No, TUBES! I do NOT want to be a vegetable, with life artificially prolonged with tubes. I don't care what you said, No IV!" The patient mixed up the difference between a young patient in persistent vegetative state on a vent versus just need a little water in your body and access for medicine.

As a side benefit, those with a MD often have already received two Covid-19 vaccine doses while the rest of the public is wringing their hands thinking "when????"

As far as age, I heard of someone in family medicine who finished medical school at 52 or so, which means they probably started working at 55.

Keep your mind open. There's more in medicine that family medicine and internal medicine. You may find you become interested in nephrology, neuro-opthalmology, pediatric rheumatology, who know?!

danish0786 · Jan 26, 2021

it dpeends on your proiroities. but NP/PA/CRNA you save lots of time and money. and AA too. it is such a long road. for stability financially it would take a long time, i just dont see it worth it if i was in your shoes mid 30s, wife, 2 kids (currently im a psychiatrist). they need food, water, shelter, and affection. i would see a divorce and high child support payments in the future if i decided to go to medical school / debt at this stage.

spacegun · Jan 26, 2021

I haven't read all the replies, but here are my thoughts:

Ask. Don't just ask med students, but ask residents and especially attendings too (though residents might be the ones who are most likely to say it's not worth it since they're working crazy hours, not making much money, sometimes getting yelled at, often feeling underappreciated, etc.). Also ask new attendings and mid-career attendings. And ask attendings in different specialties. This will give you a fuller picture.

Family. This is the most important factor. If your family is on board, then med school and residency are do-able. If they are not on board, then it's not worth potentially breaking up your family just to become a doctor. No career is worth potentially destroying your family.

Age. I'm not near your age, but I did work a couple of years after undergrad, and I have friends near your age, and 38 isn't that old. You'll be 42 when you finish med school and 45 if you do a 3 year residency. That gives you 20+ years as a practicing physician. I have met med students who are 50+. At worst, maaaaybe specialties that are heavily procedural or physically demanding aren't worth it (since they require things like good manual dexterity and stamina), but there are many other specialties to choose from.

Health. I have seen 40+ year olds who run marathons and do triathlons and I have seen 40+ year olds who are morbidly obese. If you stay fit and healthy, then that can only help you get through med school and residency.

Locale. Where do you live? Where do you want to end up practicing? It might be a harder sell to do medicine if you want to live in an expensive state like California or New York. But if you are willing to live in a more affordable state like in the Midwest or South, then even if you have $500k in debt, and you end up in a lower compensated specialty like FM, you could pay it back in a few years.

Money. MGMA is the gold standard (or at least it is considered one of the most reliable) for physician compensation. Here is MGMA 2019 (but based on 2018 data). It is "median" salaries. Anecdotally, I've had several attendings in different specialties tell me that they think MGMA median salaries are actually much lower than they make.

However, even going with median salaries, you can make about $250k as a primary care physician, which is a 3 year residency (usually FM but sometimes general IM or IM with a primary care track). From what I've seen on the FM forum, the standard expectation is 36 hours per week (so 4-4.5 days per week), no nights, no weekends, no holidays, minimal call. That's a great lifestyle. And I mention PCP because it's one of the easiest specialties to match into. And many PCP groups will offer you loan repayment, a sign-on bonus, and other things that can help you repay your loans. Search or ask the FM forum for more information.

According to MGMA, PAs make from around low $100k to $150k per year. CRNAs make around $175k per year.

Again, remember that these are all median salaries that are reported in MGMA, so potentially you could make more as a physician if you work more, get better RVUs, work in a community with good payor mix, pick up side gigs (e.g. telemedicine, pick up extra locums shifts), etc. I don't know if PAs and CRNAs can make more too, like doctors, but I assume they can if they work more hours. But my point is doctors can make more money not only by just working more hours.

Conclusion. If your family is not on board, then something else like PA or CRNA might be better. If your family is on board, then I would do it. Medicine is awesome. It's worth the sacrifices. If you become an anesthesiologist (which I mention only because you mentioned CRNA), then making $400k per year is very attainable and many anesthesiologists make a lot more than that. But even if you end up "only" a primary care physician, I still think that's worth it, because you can make around $300k per year for a fairly cush lifestyle, all things considered, and it's fulfilling being able to help people as well as to have the knowledge and skills of a physician. I also think people who are older have a better perspective on life and don't think they're missing out as much as people who went straight to med school. The latter seem to complain more than the former, but maybe this is just what I have seen where I am. Just my opinion, but I think it's worth it if your family is on board.

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