Is medical education biased against introverts?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
O

odyssey2

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2013
Messages
566
Reaction score
720
Points
4,966
  1. Medical Student
Members do not see this ad.
I think the clinical years are definitely biased toward more outgoing types, but now with Step 1 becoming pass/fail, will the quiet, more introverted students have an even tougher time standing out to residencies if they aren't as favored on the wards?
 
I would say that it's biased against quiet and less expressive types, which introverts tend to be. I think being able to come across as "likable" in a relatively shorter period of time is a skill necessary for maximizing your success during the clinical years. Gotta fake your way to an H if you're an introvert, lol
 
Every problem in the world is due to poor communication on one side or the other.

Express your wishes. Tell them you're shy, but trying your best. What are their expectations, etc.?

I think a lot of people respond well to you knowing yourself, knowing and hearing that you see that about you, and don't want that to affect others negatively.

I tell people I'm quiet and taking it all in, all the time. And then I find the person in charge of me likes me more b/c I'm not that guy who kicks down the door w/ a PE coming at cha'; that they can take solace in the fact that I am trying my best, quietly and with my head down, to get the best H/P, etc. I can,
 
^ This too.

It's one thing to say your shy, sry.

It's another to, when prompted, say something arguably sociopathic.
 
as an introvert i am a bit worried about it, too. I am very outspoken though. DEFINITELY not the quiet type. But being around people too much exhausts me. I need at least 4-5 hours a day completely alone (without even loved ones). If i dont get "alone" time, i start becoming very irritable and frustrated. This is why i always loved night shifts and such. But i do well in big group of people, and i like being in charge of things, and i like high stress environment. but i do need 4-5 hours a day of alone time. Weird.....
 
Lawpy said:
I think being sociable and able to communicate well are important, which introverts can do. Introverts aren't necessarily socially awkward despite the memes saying otherwise.
Click to expand...
Correct^^^

Being an introvert and communicating well/being likable/being accessible are not mutually exclusive. Many introverts do very well in clinical years and in life. Look around--it's true.
 
Medicine is one of the most social careers there is barring a few specialties like path, rads, etc. Not only do you have to talk to people, but you have to talk about very personal and often morbid topics. If you’re an introvert just remember the AA motto of “fake it until you make it.”
 
All things being equal, more outgoing people will obviously stand out more, but all things are often not equal, and residents will definitely take notice when a student is getting things done, and attendings will notice when someone has a good presentation/plan.
 
FalconSlice said:
Correct^^^

Being an introvert and communicating well/being likable/being accessible are not mutually exclusive. Many introverts do very well in clinical years and in life. Look around--it's true.
Click to expand...
some of my favorite classmates are more introverted too. it can be exhausting to hang-out with the gung-ho type A extroverted people non-stop, and this comes from someone who's a little louder and more outgoing than most. sometimes when you're wound up over cardio or renal you just want to talk to someone who's legitimately quiet & chill.

so I can imagine that carrying over into the clinical years
 
Chemist0157 said:
All things being equal, more outgoing people will obviously stand out more, but all things are often not equal, and residents will definitely take notice when a student is getting things done, and attendings will notice when someone has a good presentation/plan.
Click to expand...

This brings me to one very important question:
Do gunners ever pay?
 
slowthai said:
This brings me to one very important question:
Do gunners ever pay?
Click to expand...

Gunners run the risk of rubbing people the wrong way, or maybe they will be very impressive. “Reading the room” so to speak and adjusting I think becomes a great skill, for everyone.
 
altblue said:
The preclinical years favor introverts, though. It must be nice to comfortably study in isolation without needing to socialize much lol
Click to expand...

Yes, but with more schools moving to P/F the first two years and step 1 now P/F too, the introvert advantage is disappearing
 
Being quiet and reserved can be mistaken for being unfriendly or whatever else someone wants to project onto you.

This probably sounds a little wacky, but actively coaching yourself to think "I really like and respect you!" can change your body language just enough to really make a difference.
 
odyssey2 said:
Yes, but with more schools moving to P/F the first two years and step 1 now P/F too, the introvert advantage is disappearing
Click to expand...
Yeah that's a good point. At least being introverted makes year 1/2 and dedicated more tolerable
 
Medicine is full of both introverts and extroverts. As long as you aren't so painfully introverted that it affects your ability to do your job or see/communicate with patients and colleagues, it's fine.
I'm an introvert and a surgeon. It probably helped me during residency in a way, as I was quieter and didn't really draw attention to myself as much to get extra scrutiny.
 
The best students are able to anticipate what is needed and are able to get it done with little guidance. That said, clinical rotations are a game. It's less about trying your best and staying late, and more about getting the right people to give you the best evaluation possible to maximize your grade.
 
odyssey2 said:
I think the clinical years are definitely biased toward more outgoing types, but now with Step 1 becoming pass/fail, will the quiet, more introverted students have an even tougher time standing out to residencies if they aren't as favored on the wards?
Click to expand...
I disagree. Sure the outgoing are more noticed but that doesn’t mean they will always do what is asked/ answer stuff correctly. Also there are quite a few specialities with minimal patient interaction.
 
It's less about introvert/extrovert, I think. It's getting flustered or being quiet and shy that will hurt you. You can be a total introvert that gets exhausted by bustling clinic days - but if you have a calm, confident demeanor and communicate things clearly, your inpatient teams will like your style a lot. "Fake it till you make it" is 100% true, but it's not about faking chatty small talk, it's about faking that you are comfortable and competent even when you're still figuring it out.
 
I think there is some advantage to being quiet on rotations. Listen to your attending/resident , ask questions when appropriate, people who are too outgoing tend to talk too much, inadvertently say something incredibly stupid or inappropriate.
 
libertyyne said:
I think there is some advantage to being quiet on rotations. Listen to your attending/resident , ask questions when appropriate, people who are too outgoing tend to talk too much, inadvertently say something incredibly stupid or inappropriate.
Click to expand...

This. Better to keep your mouth shut than say something stupid. And there is lots of stupid stuff to say, trust me.
 
Lawpy said:
I think being sociable and able to communicate well are important, which introverts can do. Introverts aren't necessarily socially awkward despite the memes saying otherwise.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Some of the most successful and well known people are introverts.
Read “quiet” by Susan Cain. Fascinating book.
 
Introverts are fine. But introverts do not have to be a wallflower. Clinical Medicine is a team sport. Communicating effectively, being somebody that others want to be around, and not coming across as sociopathic are skills that have to be cultivated like any other. They are "soft" skills to be sure, but not having them are the ones that more commonly make for headache residents down the road.
 
People neglect to acknowledge that many variation on "quiet type" exist. There are many people I have met that rub people the wrong way because they have a weird "I'm silently judging you" type of quiet going on. Even if some of them aren't actually judging anyone they still come off as weirdos to a lot of people. It's off-putting to conversational people apparently. I noticed these people did poorly in business as well even if they were perfectly fine coworkers in my opinion.
 
Neopolymath said:
People neglect to acknowledge that many variation on "quiet type" exist. There are many people I have met that rub people the wrong way because they have a weird "I'm silently judging you" type of quiet going on. Even if some of them aren't actually judging anyone they still come off as weirdos to a lot of people. It's off-putting to conversational people apparently. I noticed these people did poorly in business as well even if they were perfectly fine coworkers in my opinion.
Click to expand...

I have that to an extent, and it really didn't help me in med school.

The problem with M3 evaluations is it's basically a constant game of trying to put on a theatrical performance that doesn't have all that much to do with the job at hand. I think I'd still get crappy evals today if you made me go back and do M3 over again, even with more than decade of clinical experience behind me now. There's only so much effort I have for trying to fake interest in my attending talking about the political opinions or golf game.

Residency on the other hand allows you to gain a rep from doing your job and demonstrating your decision making, something that doesn't really exist as a student. My attendings liked me when I was on call because when I'd wake them up in the middle of the night, my calls would be "I've got a __yo pt with __, we're doing __ for it, ___ has already been taken care of before I called you. Go back to bed". When a resident calls me and they start talking my ear off about a case with extraneous information in their presentation I get concerned they don't know what's important to focus on.
 
Lawpy said:
I think being sociable and able to communicate well are important, which introverts can do. Introverts aren't necessarily socially awkward despite the memes saying otherwise.
Click to expand...

Yes, introversion/extroversion is a personality trait related to strength of preference for social interaction. It has nothing to do with social and communication skills. Plenty of extroverts have poor social and communication skills. Think of that crazy uncle who keeps gabbing and making everyone uncomfortable or the pushy gunner med student.

OP, life is biased toward people with good communication skills. Rightly so.
 
OP, I agree with you that med students are likely more introverted because we spent most of our time studying since pre-med. I think the more accurate way to put it is that med education allows introvert to succeed, too. Honestly, if you got into medical school, you're not that introverted (personal opinion).

Before med school you had to get out there to get leadership/EC positions, ask multiple professors to write you LORs and read your personal statement, likely travelled across the country for interview (therefore had to interact with people at the airport, rental cars, hotels, etc). The process repeats again for residency applications. I think the process weeds out the extreme introverts.
 
I'm an introvert and definitely can sometimes feel overwhelmed when I'm in a group with a bunch of extroverts who are being gunners and trying to answer all the attendings' questions. But it is definitely important to demonstrate in front of others that you are a good communicator because the lack of speaking up unfortunately comes off as not knowing much (e.g. medical knowledge) or being standoffish. Us introverts have to be aware of this and make an effort to speak up. But yes we live in a Western society that values expression and extroversion more.
 
altblue said:
The preclinical years favor introverts, though. It must be nice to comfortably study in isolation without needing to socialize much lol
Click to expand...

Yup. Dedicated was literally my favorite part of the first two years of med school. I've never really cared all that much for most people so I've learned to fake it well enough.
 
Why do people with poorly developed social skills cling to the idea that it's a reflection of some intrinsic immutable inner quality called introversion? It seems like a self defeating and limiting way of understanding yourself. Sure it lets you excuse yourself from the fact that you failed to develop a basic fundamental skill of life but it dooms you to seeing it as inevitable consequence of something fixed within you and therefore unchangeable. Social skills are just like any other skill. Some people are naturally talented, but with a bit of practice you can improve a lot.
 
This is my exact sentiment.

Stop labeling your social inadequacy as introversion. Your social skills are a reflection of just that, your social skills. Get some help. Successful introvert here.

jdp207 said:
Why do people with poorly developed social skills cling to the idea that it's a reflection of some intrinsic immutable inner quality called introversion? It seems like a self defeating and limiting way of understanding yourself. Sure it lets you excuse yourself from the fact that you failed to develop a basic fundamental skill of life but it dooms you to seeing it as inevitable consequence of something fixed within you and therefore unchangeable. Social skills are just like any other skill. Some people are naturally talented, but with a bit of practice you can improve a lot.
Click to expand...
 
If anything, we need to stop reducing the worth of others to how superficially charming they are.

Some of the best listeners and most compassionate people in my class are quiet and most likely didn't stand out in their interviews

Yes for primary care ob/gyn etc. there are no diminishing returns for how likable you are but for most other specialties it probably doesn't matter nearly as much. A baseline level of clarity politeness and overall professionalism is likely all you need, and when the bar is higher oftentimes the more opportunistic or manipulative types can get ahead
 
I don't think anyone here was equating introversion with "bad social skills." Obviously, being bad at interviewing patients and being all over the place with your presentations will hurt you, but that has nothing to do with whether you're an introvert or an extrovert. The latest definition, and I think the more accurate one, has to do with your level of stimulation. An introvert on the wards will be more likely to be quiet when they're not needed and need a quiet space to work and collect their thoughts to do well. I think this can be mistaken for disinterest by some people, or cause them to fade into the background compared to their more extroverted peers and hurt them on evaluations.
 
Interesting question. I think it's less about introvert vs. extrovert and more about social skills and the ability to "read the room." You can be the most social butterfly in the world but that doesn't mean you should be joking around and talking about last night's game with the no-nonsense surgeon who trained under Halsted. Likewise, you can be shy and prefer to keep to yourself at work but if you seem standoffish or aloof when people try to make casual conversation with you there's a risk that you might rub some people the wrong way. There's room for all sorts and as long as you're a decent person who comes in and makes a good faith effort things should generally work out.
 
altblue said:
I'm not getting this impression from the thread lol, but that was an interesting rant you made there.
Click to expand...

It is an extremely common meme that introverts have no social skills and are just super shy and awkward. Some of the posts have hinted at that.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
It is an extremely common meme that introverts have no social skills and are just super shy and awkward. Some of the posts have hinted at that.
Click to expand...
Yes, but that poster is suggesting that many introverts, potentially the ones in this thread, don't have great social skills and refuse to acknowledge that. This is def true in some instances but I'd hardly say the majority of introverts are socially incompetent

I'm more on the outgoing side so this doesn't really pertain to me; I just don't want people categorizing others in an unfair or unrepresentative way
 
mistafab said:
This is my exact sentiment.

Stop labeling your social inadequacy as introversion. Your social skills are a reflection of just that, your social skills. Get some help. Successful introvert here.
Click to expand...

You may just not know what some mean when they say introversion. I have the ability to talk to you, I can mirror your personality, I can figure out what you like and bore myself to death making you feel good. Odds are though, I don't care much for you. So unless I'm in a situation such as rotations or sales(my brief career before med school) where it is necessary to go out of my way to talk to people, I choose not to.
 
altblue said:
Yes, but that poster is suggesting that many introverts, potentially the ones in this thread, don't have great social skills and refuse to acknowledge that. This is def true in some instances but I'd hardly say the majority of introverts are socially incompetent

I'm more on the outgoing side so this doesn't really pertain to me; I just don't want people categorizing others in an unfair or unrepresentative way
Click to expand...

The poster you quoted was saying that people with poor social skills want to claim it’s because they’re introverted, but being introverted has nothing to do with whether you have social skills. It seems to me like you’re saying the same thing.
 
But couldn't you argue preclinical or any individual-based education favors introverts?
 
Kr#36 said:
You may just not know what some mean when they say introversion. I have the ability to talk to you, I can mirror your personality, I can figure out what you like and bore myself to death making you feel good. Odds are though, I don't care much for you. So unless I'm in a situation such as rotations or sales(my brief career before med school) where it is necessary to go out of my way to talk to people, I choose not to.
Click to expand...

You put it in stronger terms than I would, but as someone that would naturally rather be quiet and keep to myself, this "performance" is a means to an end. You'd never, ever guess that I'm an introvert because being outgoing became second nature to me over time. I found that net-net, being outgoing is far more beneficial in so many arenas than otherwise.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
The poster you quoted was saying that people with poor social skills want to claim it’s because they’re introverted, but being introverted has nothing to do with whether you have social skills. It seems to me like you’re saying the same thing.
Click to expand...
Not really. Conceptually similar sure, but in the context of the thread their reply read as "you're not really introverted or your introversion isn't responsible for your poor results, it's your social skills", which struck me as a bit condescending in this context

My framing of it was more respectful
 
Last edited:
altblue said:
Not really. Conceptually similar sure, but in the context of the thread their reply read as "you're not really introverted or your introversion isn't responsible for your poor results, it's your social skills", which struck me as a bit condescending in this context

My framing of it was more respectful
Click to expand...

I guess if you want to say you’re being more respectful, fine. I don’t think it’s particularly disrespectful to point out that people blame their poor social skills on introversion because it means they don’t have to work on themselves.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
I guess if you want to say you’re being more respectful, fine. I don’t think it’s particularly disrespectful to point out that people blame their poor social skills on introversion because it means they don’t have to work on themselves.
Click to expand...
I don't disagree that it doesn't happen, but the poster seemed to assume that that was the problem facing the OP and other posters without any additional context. Where we might differ is that you saw it as more of a general statement, but I had taken it as a passive-aggressive knock on the OP and likeminded posters. In the end though, I feel that my interpretation of the situation was a fair one
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Dr. Anonymouss
Is this the end of foreign medical graduates?
Replies
10
Views
2K
Mr.Smile12
Mr.Smile12
F
Helping friend who is applying to medical school
Replies
3
Views
1K
Mr.Smile12
Mr.Smile12
E
Medical LOA & Considerations
Replies
4
Views
962
NotAProgDirector
NotAProgDirector
Angler
Medical Education: Toxic?
Replies
47
Views
5K
Hzreio
Hzreio
K
Medical School cost breakdown
Replies
2
Views
974
karaya
karaya
Top Bottom