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Correct. The worst it would be for anyone is being stationed at a major Forward Operating Base, that is highly protected. You won't be on the battlefield. That's what 68W, medics, are for.
Is medical school worth it? A physicians perspective.
Started by larryboy
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Correct. The worst it would be for anyone is being stationed at a major Forward Operating Base, that is highly protected. You won't be on the battlefield. That's what 68W, medics, are for.
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I don't know about highly protected. A U Penn trauma surgeon was killed in Iraq back in 2009 due to mortar fire.
Yeah, FOB's aren't highly protected, but I wouldn't say that many physicians are operating out of a FOB. I would say that most physicians would be at big bases like Fallujah and Baghdad, but the point is that there is always a chance that you could die. What's the point of being out of debt if you're going to hate your life or become mutilated? There seems to be loan repayment options that would be a lot better for people who are just worried about the debt being incurred, but this is just my opinion. Good luck to everyone, regardless of whether they end u pin the military or stay civilian.
Source.
MSAR shows the average indebtedness and he is correct that schools like Harvard and Hopkins have lower indebtedness than many state schools.
It's in the MSAR and I don't know if I'm allowed to post it on here.
Johns Hopkins- $108,421
Columbia-$116,982
Harvard-$97,735
Compare that to your local state school-some get pretty high
Hoe does this study factor in that people attending these schools may be receiving funding from other sources (e.g. work before medical school or more importantly parental support).
What I am saying is a lot of the students going to these schools come from very well off families and their lower indebtedness may be due more to this than more generous financial aid packages.
Look at Harvard's website, it gives some examples of the amount that people will owe after 4 years. If your parents make less than $100,000, their expected contribution is 0 and Harvard covers most of the cost. Most of these top schools are all need based scholarships (depending on how much your parents make) and the MSAR also tells you the percentage of students that receive financial aid.
Nevertheless, to answer your question, I suggest that you call up some of the Harvard/Columbia/Cornell/Johns Hopkins kids and ask them about their financial aid packages. Basically, the one's whose parents make less than $100,000 only have to take out about $27,000/year: this covers tuition, room and board. All I can provide is anecdotal evidence from my experiences in the interviews and my conversations with the students. Although, if you call these schools they will be more than happy to explain to you how they give out scholarships.
And yet you still come out a doctor who gets to set their needs aside and take care of a patient who humbly seeks you to take care of them.
Priceless.
Sent from my iPhone using SDN Mobile app please excuse punctuation and spelling
Priceless.
Sent from my iPhone using SDN Mobile app please excuse punctuation and spelling
Some of the larger state schools also give out significant scholarships. Michigan and Ohio State both give scholarships up to and including full tuition (not full COA as far as I know).
Ohio State's highest scholarships are merit based scholarships up to state tuition (not out of state) for those in the top 10-15%. Not quite the same thing. The other schools are need based and they place no limit on the number that they hand out; meaning if you come from a poor family, which are the ones that probably need the aid the most, then you should come out with a relatively low amount of debt. Meaning that top schools are affordable and are a viable option for those that don't come from affluent neighborhoods, and at times are even more affordable than most other state schools; never said that there might not be other schools that perhaps are more affordable.
I got it bud, I actually received scholarships from the schools I mentioned so I have a decent idea of how these things work. However, chances are that if you got into Harvard you're likely in Ohio State's top 15%. This works well for you if your parents happen to make over 150K or only recently started to make enough to phase out of that discounted contribution range.
I was simply mentioning these schools as state schools that are known to give out scholarships as well. I wasn't arguing with what you said and I never said top private schools are not affordable options.
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Awesome. Perhaps you can shed some light into the financial aid packages at your school or perhaps some experiences of your peers that have gone to different institutions.
Unless your parents make less than 60k, I'm sure going to a state school is still cheaper than a private school. I'm pretty sure they only give full rides if you dirt poor (like legitimately can't afford it). If you are middle class, which most people are, I doubt you are going to get a significant break. I have friends who attended Ivy undergrads and they still have to pay something. I know my state MD schools still provide need based financial aid. In TX, where tuition is already cheap (like 15k), I don't know if a private school could beat that tuition. With aid, that tution is probably actually even less.
Realistically, not many people are going to be choosing between Harvard and their state schools where these full rides may exist. A more likely situation would be some random private school vs. a state school. Most likely the state school is going to be the cheaper option. For example, USC-Keck charges almost 50k a year. I don't think they are giving many full rides out and it's probably cheaper to go to a state school.
Realistically, not many people are going to be choosing between Harvard and their state schools where these full rides may exist. A more likely situation would be some random private school vs. a state school. Most likely the state school is going to be the cheaper option. For example, USC-Keck charges almost 50k a year. I don't think they are giving many full rides out and it's probably cheaper to go to a state school.
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Assignments in forward operating bases are on a volunteer basis. You will never be assigned to one unless A) you have a specialty that is needed in a FOB like surgery or anesthesia, and B) you volunteer and then are accepted into a FOB team.
If you go overseas during your active duty payback time, it will usually be 6 months to 1 yr and in a large base hospital away from the front lines.
I think most people would prefer a dream specialty. There is a slight chance that you will be not be able to go into the residency of your choice. What the military needs it will get out of you.
This is interesting. I was in the Marine Corps and every time that we went to Iraq, the only people in the FOB's were infantry. Perhaps different branches run their FOB's differently, but we didn't subject our physicians to getting mortared/shot at/ blown up everyday.
For Ivy league undergrad., if you parents make less than 60k then your tuition and room and board are free. I don't know what friend you have that is in this position but that is certainly not the norm. Also, like I said, if you look at Harvard's website you don't have to be dirt poor. If your parents make less than 100k then their expected contributions is 0-you take out 27k/year in loans and you get scholarships for the rest. Lastly, the more elite schools have loads of endowments which they use to help students. You don't have to believe me, just look at their financial aid websites.
Friends that have parents that make like 100kish. They don't get ivy for free. My friend actually had to give up some of her scholarship aid to help those that really needed aid. Sounds odd, but it happened.Just because you take out loans doesn't mean it's free. You have to pay back those loans and if your taking out the max 27k a yr, then your going to be paying that back.and then some. More loans= more stress and financial burden in the future
I think most med students parents make more than 100k (I happen to be in the minority). Like 70% of matriculants, so most med students aren't getting a full ride even if they are going to a private school. I believe you, but a majority of students (70% at least) aren't getting these full rides so it might be more wise to choose a cheaper state school if you are in the majority where your parents make quite a bit.
I think most med students parents make more than 100k (I happen to be in the minority). Like 70% of matriculants, so most med students aren't getting a full ride even if they are going to a private school. I believe you, but a majority of students (70% at least) aren't getting these full rides so it might be more wise to choose a cheaper state school if you are in the majority where your parents make quite a bit.
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I'm sorry these were two different things. The 27k/year was for medical school-specifically Harvard; although I'm sure that the other Ivy's have some sort of the same program. I just know that Harvard has the breakdown on their website.
For undergrad., if you parents make less than 60k, then you get everything for free-hence no loans. This pertains to all of the Ivy's. Your friends parents make 100kish which exempts your friend from this particular program.
Sorry for the confusion.
Edit: no one stated that they were getting full rides. Simply that the more competitive schools have programs in place and their average indebtedness is around the other public state schools. Whether that be because of their parents or because of scholarships- the point is that overall, financially speaking, the schools are not more expensive, per se.
Ok that makes sense. I guess it depends on your parent's financial situation what the better option would be.
Side note: I don't understand how someone can think $150,000 or more a year is a little amount of money. I've seen people have more than they needed with $50,000 a year salaries. it all just depends on how much you want to eat at that $50 a plate restaurant each week. I'm not saying money means a whole lot to me. I'm simply confused by the claims made here.
Geographic location makes a difference. Where I live, you can rent a 2 bedroom house for approximately $1,200 a month. I can easily live a "basic" middle class life making no more than $30,000 a year. Many things you see people mention in this forum are unnecessary, and even if they are, you can get everything much cheaper.
I currently pay $80 a month for food, at most, $30 for internet (faster than basic broadband), $50 for electric, $900 a month in rent for a two bedroom house with a decent yard, and other smaller fees. Even in a generous model of $1,500 a month in expenses, that only comes out to $1,800, which is less than half of a "low" end salary. You figure even with a starting salary of $40,000 the taxes will be 25%, reducing that to $30,000. Divide that by 12 for the per month salary and it's $2,500. That leaves you with $700 per month to spend on whatever you want. May not seem like a lot, but depending on your location, salary can be significantly higher. I've seen computer science undergrads make about $50,000 a year coming straight out of college without experience.
But, if you're in any career for the money, my advice is to stay far away from Biology or medcine. For ungraduates, Biology can be one of the lowest-paid and longest to gain universal recognition fields. My brother's friend (granted he made about a 3.1 GPA), was offered a job making $12 an hour dissecting mice with his B.S. in Biology. Yes, $12 an hour. Any person with experience can find a job not requiring a degree for a higher hourly salary. In fact, the Sears store I used to work at for a large portion of my freshman/sophomore years, paid their 2nd lowest ranked employees almost that much money. To get any sort of decent salary with a Biology degree, you will need a PhD. Computer science majors with a B.S. and a few years of experience make more than PhDs in Biology (Google and Facebook can pay $90,000 a year.) These facts can't really show any sort of significance to getting a degree.
Then medical school, as the primary poster mentioned, hardly seems worth it. Sure, some physicians can make $300,000+ a year, but that's almost always after years of work experience and hard-earned recognition in the field. The youngest a person could possibly finish his or her entire medical education finishing high school at 19 (let's use oncology as an example) is 32. That's 3 years for the bachelor's (with AP classes in high school to cover general ed), 4 years for medical school, 3 years of residency, and 1 or 2 years of a fellowship, especially for neuro-oncology. Then, without any experience, the salary can be as low as $120,000 a year, with 28% taxes. This doesn't count the fact that medical debt can be staggering, almost more than a beginning physician's salary. It will take another 10 years to pay it off which, in this model, puts the individual at about 42, with maybe netting around $200,000 a year at age 45. The taxes put you back down to $140,000, which can be about the same as a very successful computer programmer who received an MBA, or physicist (according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the highest paid ones receive more than $160,000 per year.) Yes, a PhD is needed, but that is minus any MCAT requirements and the general stress of medical school.
Money isn't everything, but that much time invested deserves a much greater turn out. Yes, I am aware there are some people who naturally want to help others, but medicine isn't the only route to go. There are many other disciplines within that field that require a slew of degrees: physics, mathematics, computer science, and even business administration, which all work together to make primary care much easier and more efficient.
In a nutshell: Doing medicine just for the money isn't worth it in terms of time investment, but your life certainly isn't going to be impoverished with a $40,000 a year salary. Just be happy doing what you want to do. Being excited to enter work every morning is much more imperative than putting up with something so you can make payments on a $60,000 a year car.
Geographic location makes a difference. Where I live, you can rent a 2 bedroom house for approximately $1,200 a month. I can easily live a "basic" middle class life making no more than $30,000 a year. Many things you see people mention in this forum are unnecessary, and even if they are, you can get everything much cheaper.
I currently pay $80 a month for food, at most, $30 for internet (faster than basic broadband), $50 for electric, $900 a month in rent for a two bedroom house with a decent yard, and other smaller fees. Even in a generous model of $1,500 a month in expenses, that only comes out to $1,800, which is less than half of a "low" end salary. You figure even with a starting salary of $40,000 the taxes will be 25%, reducing that to $30,000. Divide that by 12 for the per month salary and it's $2,500. That leaves you with $700 per month to spend on whatever you want. May not seem like a lot, but depending on your location, salary can be significantly higher. I've seen computer science undergrads make about $50,000 a year coming straight out of college without experience.
But, if you're in any career for the money, my advice is to stay far away from Biology or medcine. For ungraduates, Biology can be one of the lowest-paid and longest to gain universal recognition fields. My brother's friend (granted he made about a 3.1 GPA), was offered a job making $12 an hour dissecting mice with his B.S. in Biology. Yes, $12 an hour. Any person with experience can find a job not requiring a degree for a higher hourly salary. In fact, the Sears store I used to work at for a large portion of my freshman/sophomore years, paid their 2nd lowest ranked employees almost that much money. To get any sort of decent salary with a Biology degree, you will need a PhD. Computer science majors with a B.S. and a few years of experience make more than PhDs in Biology (Google and Facebook can pay $90,000 a year.) These facts can't really show any sort of significance to getting a degree.
Then medical school, as the primary poster mentioned, hardly seems worth it. Sure, some physicians can make $300,000+ a year, but that's almost always after years of work experience and hard-earned recognition in the field. The youngest a person could possibly finish his or her entire medical education finishing high school at 19 (let's use oncology as an example) is 32. That's 3 years for the bachelor's (with AP classes in high school to cover general ed), 4 years for medical school, 3 years of residency, and 1 or 2 years of a fellowship, especially for neuro-oncology. Then, without any experience, the salary can be as low as $120,000 a year, with 28% taxes. This doesn't count the fact that medical debt can be staggering, almost more than a beginning physician's salary. It will take another 10 years to pay it off which, in this model, puts the individual at about 42, with maybe netting around $200,000 a year at age 45. The taxes put you back down to $140,000, which can be about the same as a very successful computer programmer who received an MBA, or physicist (according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the highest paid ones receive more than $160,000 per year.) Yes, a PhD is needed, but that is minus any MCAT requirements and the general stress of medical school.
Money isn't everything, but that much time invested deserves a much greater turn out. Yes, I am aware there are some people who naturally want to help others, but medicine isn't the only route to go. There are many other disciplines within that field that require a slew of degrees: physics, mathematics, computer science, and even business administration, which all work together to make primary care much easier and more efficient.
In a nutshell: Doing medicine just for the money isn't worth it in terms of time investment, but your life certainly isn't going to be impoverished with a $40,000 a year salary. Just be happy doing what you want to do. Being excited to enter work every morning is much more imperative than putting up with something so you can make payments on a $60,000 a year car.
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The OP makes some really good points. Regardless of your career goals, the lesson here is keep track of your finances.
OP,
My undergraduate debt is zero (cheap state school, scholarships, parents' assistance.)
I will be attending a public medical school in state, on the low end of the cost spectrum.
My parents have agreed to invest in a house in the area (40 minutes from where I grew up.) While I am living there, I will pay them a reduced rent, and they will rent out the other 2 rooms for income. We will also renovate/update the house and property, so it can be sold (hopefully) for profit. Ah, the benefits of being born into a blue collar, money savvy family.
So, it sounds like I am on the "worth it" side of your "it depends" scenario. Am I right?
Is anybody else in my position? By my position, I mean blessed, fortunate, hooked up, whatever.
My undergraduate debt is zero (cheap state school, scholarships, parents' assistance.)
I will be attending a public medical school in state, on the low end of the cost spectrum.
My parents have agreed to invest in a house in the area (40 minutes from where I grew up.) While I am living there, I will pay them a reduced rent, and they will rent out the other 2 rooms for income. We will also renovate/update the house and property, so it can be sold (hopefully) for profit. Ah, the benefits of being born into a blue collar, money savvy family.
So, it sounds like I am on the "worth it" side of your "it depends" scenario. Am I right?
Is anybody else in my position? By my position, I mean blessed, fortunate, hooked up, whatever.
This is where I realized that you don't know what you're talking about.
I just really wanna know what he eats in order to only spend $80 a month on food! Ramen and cereal e'ry day!
i was wondering the same thing!
that's what close to what my fiance and I spend per week!
My wife, son and I spend about $400 a month on groceries. That equates to about $4.44/day which is what Mayor Cory Booker is living on right now and he is having an extremely tough time. I know that NYC is pretty expensive but I don't know where on earth anyone could live off of $80/month on food.
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Too bad we can't just all go to Cleveland Clinic and get free tuition!
I very much appreciate the candid opinion of "larryboy." I dreamed of becoming a surgeon when I watched neuro and cardiac surgeries on the TLC channel back in the '90s. I was in middle school. My father was an ER doc, and I told him about how I wanted to be a surgeon. Frankly, he told me not to do it if I wanted a life. His admonishing words of how I'd be working nights, weekends, holidays and all the days in-between steered me away from obsessing further at that impressionable age.
Well, I almost got killed on 11/27/14, and surgeons et al. saved my ass. The whole experience really made me start thinking about being a surgeon again. I have fantasized over it now for a year-and-a-half. I'm sitting here at 31 while I write this. I'd only need to take four more undergrad classes; then I could take the MCAT and eventually get into some sort of medical school. I actually signed up for one of these four classes early last year, a biology, and I was about to start it online. And then I thought long and hard about coughing up $800 for the class. And then I thought about coughing up another $800 for the next, and the next and the next, until I'm having to go to the lenders again like I did in my undergrad days.
And you know the biggest problem I have with doing all that? I guess you could say self doubt. My problem is that no matter how much I might think I want to be a doctor now, what happens if I've gotten through part of or all of medical school by taking out $150K+ in loans and I'm miserable? That's not an option for me. I think I'd move to another country, quite frankly. Perhaps I could figure out some way to disappear and stay in the U.S. like what's his name—Saul—did in Breaking Bad. I think this is what others should probably do if they drop out of medical school and have to repay lenders, or if they get sick of their careers as doctors and want to change paths prior to paying off a substantial amount of the debt.
Either way, I'm getting a little rant-ish here, so I'll end with this next paragraph. What I find fascinating is that the market will pay so much for this schooling. The schools don't have to charge that much. They charge that much because they can. Just like Starbucks, which charges $6.00 for a Venti whatever it is. Market demand. Overpriced? The market doesn't think so. I would totally go to become a surgeon if we could all stop applying for med school long enough to lower prices to maybe $75K total debt for med school. And if I win the lottery, you better believe what I'll be doing (invest everything besides what I'd need for the med school). But literally going for broke is not worth the risk to me. Google "teachers make an apple a day more than a doctor." You should find a page titled "The deceptive salary of doctors," and take a look at that. This just goes to show that people who become docs shouldn't ever do so for the money.
Well, I almost got killed on 11/27/14, and surgeons et al. saved my ass. The whole experience really made me start thinking about being a surgeon again. I have fantasized over it now for a year-and-a-half. I'm sitting here at 31 while I write this. I'd only need to take four more undergrad classes; then I could take the MCAT and eventually get into some sort of medical school. I actually signed up for one of these four classes early last year, a biology, and I was about to start it online. And then I thought long and hard about coughing up $800 for the class. And then I thought about coughing up another $800 for the next, and the next and the next, until I'm having to go to the lenders again like I did in my undergrad days.
And you know the biggest problem I have with doing all that? I guess you could say self doubt. My problem is that no matter how much I might think I want to be a doctor now, what happens if I've gotten through part of or all of medical school by taking out $150K+ in loans and I'm miserable? That's not an option for me. I think I'd move to another country, quite frankly. Perhaps I could figure out some way to disappear and stay in the U.S. like what's his name—Saul—did in Breaking Bad. I think this is what others should probably do if they drop out of medical school and have to repay lenders, or if they get sick of their careers as doctors and want to change paths prior to paying off a substantial amount of the debt.
Either way, I'm getting a little rant-ish here, so I'll end with this next paragraph. What I find fascinating is that the market will pay so much for this schooling. The schools don't have to charge that much. They charge that much because they can. Just like Starbucks, which charges $6.00 for a Venti whatever it is. Market demand. Overpriced? The market doesn't think so. I would totally go to become a surgeon if we could all stop applying for med school long enough to lower prices to maybe $75K total debt for med school. And if I win the lottery, you better believe what I'll be doing (invest everything besides what I'd need for the med school). But literally going for broke is not worth the risk to me. Google "teachers make an apple a day more than a doctor." You should find a page titled "The deceptive salary of doctors," and take a look at that. This just goes to show that people who become docs shouldn't ever do so for the money.
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This is a four year thread you bumped
