Is medical school worth it? A physicians perspective.
Started by larryboy
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undergrad is 4 years... You probably still don't get it, so I'll help you...
$30/hr * 20hr/wk * 52 wks * 4yrs = 124,800
124,800*0.8 = 99,840 after 20% tax
multiply that by 4 years and you get 100k after tax. I had a feeling I'd have to spell it out for some of you. The point.... if you're not spending 100k during undergrad to live, you shouldn't borrow 100k to live in med school just because you can. Do what you want though.... 👍
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lol at a 26 year old living in the same conditions as a 18 year old undergrad. hopefully, there is some
"Hey, man, at least we didn't have to take out extra loans. Living it up like frosh! Pass the ramen."
Undergrad COL wasn't 100k. Most undergrads had much less responsibilities. Most didn't have to buy their own health insurance. Most lived in dorms for a year or two [which basically offered everything they needed]. Most preferred to buy Natural Ice instead of natural produce. Most got generous grants/scholarships (whether merit- or need-based) that are MUCH harder to obtain in medical school. Many worked part-time jobs that helped pay for their living expenses, that opportunity won't present itself in med school (i.e. more loans this time around). The list goes on.
I don't plan on spending 25k per year in COL for medical school. I'll be thrilled if I can keep it down to around 15k. However, unlike you, I understand that many people living in sky-high COL cities, or have families, will be utilizing the full 25k in loans. Furthermore, unlike you, I do not propagate the faulty belief that this will get them "lobster and crab every night while living in a mansion."
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You know what's funny to me? How my wife and I and our 2.5 yr old daughter live off less than $20k per year without any govt assistance besides a subsidized health plan for our daughter.
Honestly, I have no clue how we make it on so little and are still able to buy stuff like an iPad or whatever. I just hope we can continue to live frugally and then we can pay off our loans much quicker.
Honestly, I have no clue how we make it on so little and are still able to buy stuff like an iPad or whatever. I just hope we can continue to live frugally and then we can pay off our loans much quicker.
Each school has a cost of attendance that they clearly show you. This cost of attendance is what your student loans are based off, and the cost includes tuition and fees as well as monthly living expenses.
Just for kicks, here is Johns Hopkins: http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/som/offices/finaid/cost/med.html
If you add all the extra expenses outside of school up (phone, internet, insurance, food, laundry) it all adds up to around 2000 dollars a month. You do not have to spend this much, but this is what they calculated the average student will spend for their medical school year. Save the extra money, or don't take out as much and hope you don't need more money later in the year. But just to show you there is a reason they give you how much they do. I hope you would expect a school faculty would understand living expense and loan amounts.
K
kpcrew
So... you're saying that you are actually using government assistance then.
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lol at a 26 year old living in the same conditions as a 18 year old undergrad. hopefully, there is somematurationlack of masochism that the standards of living increases.
"Hey, man, at least we didn't have to take out extra loans. Living it up like frosh! Pass the ramen."
Undergrad COL wasn't 100k. Most undergrads had much less responsibilities. Most didn't have to buy their own health insurance. Most lived in dorms for a year or two [which basically offered everything they needed]. Most preferred to buy Natural Ice instead of natural produce. Most got generous grants/scholarships (whether merit- or need-based) that are MUCH harder to obtain in medical school. Many worked part-time jobs that helped pay for their living expenses, that opportunity won't present itself in med school (i.e. more loans this time around). The list goes on.
I don't plan on spending 25k per year in COL for medical school. I'll be thrilled if I can keep it down to around 15k. However, unlike you, I understand that many people living in sky-high COL cities, or have families, will be utilizing the full 25k in loans. Furthermore, unlike you, I do not propagate the faulty belief that this will get them "lobster and crab every night while living in a mansion."
Having a family is different. The argument was 25k/yr for a single adult. It'll be hard to convince me that you need 25k to live. And if the argument is because you live in NYC, then that sucks, maybe don't go to NYC... COA should be a factor in your choice of school. I've never lived there, and I don't plan on applying there.
As for myself, I will be married by then and my wife will bring in income, have benefits, drive a car that's paid off, etc. while I study. I guess not everyone has this option and everyone's situation is different. If I was alone, I would have no choice but to take out loans to live, but I still don't feel like I'd need 25k then, since I don't now. I can see that it is definitely possible to use 25k in loans to live on, but with a little self-control and a solid budget it shouldn't be necessary. 🙂
I might not have my own major responsibilities but the fact that most people in my city make under 50,000 a year and the families with multiple kids don't live in shacks eating ramen noodle everyday but instead live good lifestyles sending their kids to school with backpacks full of supplies and ipods to go with it, I think maybe you severely underestimate how much 50,000 is really worth.
Sure you might not be able to go on vacations every 2 months or buy a 90 inch flat screen for you're big house in a gated community, but if thats what you're expecting out of being a doctor, you're priorities are messed up.
As far as 25k living costs. I can understand not wanting to live like a college student in med school but I'd rather live super frugal for 4 years then have to continue living somewhat frugally for 10-15 years more while repaying back the loans.
For those of you who don't want to live as frugal as you were in undergrad, you have a harsh reality ahead of you. As the saying goes:
Live like a student now so you can live like a doctor later.
or
Live like a doctor now and you'll live like a student later.
Pick one.
Live like a student now so you can live like a doctor later.
or
Live like a doctor now and you'll live like a student later.
Pick one.
-_-
Nah, I rather just ignore that false dichotomy and remain balanced throughout both stages of life.
I only recently felt like it was worth the arduous journey and cost. I felt there was always one more hurdle no matter what I did.
After I recently passed my oral board (the second step of the psychiatry board exam, I feel it is all worth .it. I am happy the higher up you go in training, the more you focus on the field you are truly interested in and this is very satisfying. All my CME and MOC will be of my choosing, and I like having some control over my education.
So keep on trucking on.
And attend a state school.
After I recently passed my oral board (the second step of the psychiatry board exam, I feel it is all worth .it. I am happy the higher up you go in training, the more you focus on the field you are truly interested in and this is very satisfying. All my CME and MOC will be of my choosing, and I like having some control over my education.
So keep on trucking on.
And attend a state school.
Unfortunately, state schools in california are just about as expensive as out of state. IE UCI vs UofIowa, they differ by about 3-6k a year. The tuition in Iowa is much higher of course, but COA in Irivne is also much higher... No matter what it is still cheaper to live in state, but not by a significant margin. and Irvine's COL is 20k+, and COA is almost 40k
You guys have awesome clips.
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If you are an indepnt contractor, the taxes are even worse.
Also, at least in regular jobs, 20 hours means 20 hours. In doctor jobs, 40 hours usually means 65 hours and you are always under the gun for production.
I prefer psych fup visits to be 20-30 mins so i can also do suicide/homicide assessments and make sure of the state of mind of the patient and to document in a timely manner (rather than at the end of the day). But the higher ups want 4-6 pts per hour.
I was just about to chime in about this too... Because at the moment, I make approximately 50K annually as a master's level mental health counselor (INCLUDING shift differential for my 11PM-7AM job at a psych hospital). And trust me, my monthly take home pay is NOWHERE near $4250; in fact, it's slightly less than $3000 per month.
And while I don't have the same massive debt as an entry-level Primary Care Physician, I do, in fact, have about 60K in student loans from my two years of graduate school. The repayment of this debt currently eats up over $700 per month of my already modest take home pay.
Across the board, I believe that health care professionals, with their large debt burden from so many years of expensive education and training, should be compensated fairly and accordingly.
I was doing a little math on the other forums and came across this realization (assuming the school cots 40K and cost of living is 20K):
So, is it reasonable to assume that costs for everything for 4 years would run about 60k. 60K x 4= 240K. For maths sake, lets just assume that the average interest would be 7.3% (half of loans at 6.9, halfish at 7.9%), with PLUS loans and unsubsidized. Each year, 7.3% of 60K= 4.3K a year in interest X 4 years (simplifying it as best I can)= roughly 18K-20K depending on rounding nicely or not. So 260K in loans just for 4 years of medical school.
Now, it is totally possible to chip away at the debt while in residency, but u gotta eat, live somewhere, preferably drive somewhere, and if you have kids or not. So lets say u pay nothing during residency. so 7.3ish% of 260K = roughly 1.9K. Which 1.9K over 3 years minimum is roughly 6K (again, very rough). So by the time you make any attending salary money, you have about 270K in debt, accruing interest every year. How do you pay that off as a PCP making 150K?
lets say I gross 200K as a FM doc and after taxes and overhead and malpractice I take home 120K a year. It seems like the best way to pay off the debt is to live off of 20K a year for 3-4 years and then start enjoying the 6 figs.
Dude, debt sucks, and I had a scolarship for undergrad cant imagine what it is like for people who have loans b4 med school
So, is it reasonable to assume that costs for everything for 4 years would run about 60k. 60K x 4= 240K. For maths sake, lets just assume that the average interest would be 7.3% (half of loans at 6.9, halfish at 7.9%), with PLUS loans and unsubsidized. Each year, 7.3% of 60K= 4.3K a year in interest X 4 years (simplifying it as best I can)= roughly 18K-20K depending on rounding nicely or not. So 260K in loans just for 4 years of medical school.
Now, it is totally possible to chip away at the debt while in residency, but u gotta eat, live somewhere, preferably drive somewhere, and if you have kids or not. So lets say u pay nothing during residency. so 7.3ish% of 260K = roughly 1.9K. Which 1.9K over 3 years minimum is roughly 6K (again, very rough). So by the time you make any attending salary money, you have about 270K in debt, accruing interest every year. How do you pay that off as a PCP making 150K?
lets say I gross 200K as a FM doc and after taxes and overhead and malpractice I take home 120K a year. It seems like the best way to pay off the debt is to live off of 20K a year for 3-4 years and then start enjoying the 6 figs.
Dude, debt sucks, and I had a scolarship for undergrad cant imagine what it is like for people who have loans b4 med school
Go to state school
Don't fall for the private school hype.
Don't do primary care
PROFIT
Don't fall for the private school hype.
Don't do primary care
PROFIT
You get in where you get in, MD or DO. Many people, like myself, would be thrilled to get an acceptance anywhere, even if that is at CCOM with 52K a year tuition.
On that train of thought, u match where u match. I am inclined to think that this has a bit more flexibility though than trying to get into a school.
I'd say your calculations are a little low. I calculated according to the tuition, fees, and required supplies/books of western u, compounding the interest of each type of loan each year and also assuming no payments during a 3 yr residency, and it's about $290K. That's JUST FOR THE BARE MINIMUM, no cost of living. You take out the max amount of loans (which ill probably need to do since I have a family) and that number skyrockets to nearly $430K.
Maybe that's why everyone keeps telling me not to do it for the money?
I'd say your calculations are a little low. I calculated according to the tuition, fees, and required supplies/books of western u, compounding the interest of each type of loan each year and also assuming no payments during a 3 yr residency, and it's about $290K. That's JUST FOR THE BARE MINIMUM, no cost of living. You take out the max amount of loans (which ill probably need to do since I have a family) and that number skyrockets to nearly $430K.
Maybe that's why everyone keeps telling me not to do it for the money?
Time to go to Lecom?
Honestly, thats why my state school and Lecom are my number 1. I dont care about location, I want to be as debt free as possible. Eventually I would also like to save up for a retirement as well, make investments, save for my kids college, buy a nice house, nice car, etc. The only way I see myself doing that is going to my state school or lecom, which has tuition of 30k. cost of living 20K= around 200k for 4 years plus whatever interest will be.
I feel bad for those of you with undergrad debt.
Agree. Strike a balance. Personally, its all about stress management. If I take out an exorbitant amount of loans during Med School, then later in life (residency and beyond) I'll be stressed about my loan repayment. Heck, I'll probably be stressed during my 3rd and 4th year if I find myself leaning toward/scoring in the range of a lower paying specialty. I don't want to let my debt dictate what specialty I choose, that is unacceptable in my eyes.
On the flip side, I will not function well during medical school if I have a cheap but unhealthy diet, a car that is constantly breaking down, an unsafe environment for my family to live in and I'm constantly worried about going out to eat or buying gifts for people with my loan money. I don't want to operate like that for 4 years of my life, I'll never get them back.
All that to say, Blais summed up my thoughts on the issue well.
smart advice! Listen to this man (woman?).
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You should NEVER join the military just because they'll pay for school.
Apparently I came from a much more modest background than many people around here. When I saw that I could be making 50,000 a year after taxes and loans are taken care of, I thought AWESOME!
Currently, family of 4 living off of just over 2000 a month after taxes. Considering I am a full time student that salary is all on my spouse. We have a mortgage, two cars, fuel, car insurance, health insurance, medical bills/medication, and all those grown up things to pay for. The down side to living off of the bare minimum is our savings account is never making as much progress as I would like. But if we can keep our expenses low right now it will pay off when I'm making a meager 50,000 a year. Even if my spouse quit working all together we would be financially secure.
Obviously there are ways to have less debt or make more money, but if I am taking home at least 50,000 to start I will be totally satisfied. I guess I just come from a family that chooses careers based on what they can stand to do day in a day out, rather than what is going to pay the best.
I did appreciate all the numbers being thrown out. It helps me see if my own estimates are any where in the right ballpark.
Currently, family of 4 living off of just over 2000 a month after taxes. Considering I am a full time student that salary is all on my spouse. We have a mortgage, two cars, fuel, car insurance, health insurance, medical bills/medication, and all those grown up things to pay for. The down side to living off of the bare minimum is our savings account is never making as much progress as I would like. But if we can keep our expenses low right now it will pay off when I'm making a meager 50,000 a year. Even if my spouse quit working all together we would be financially secure.
Obviously there are ways to have less debt or make more money, but if I am taking home at least 50,000 to start I will be totally satisfied. I guess I just come from a family that chooses careers based on what they can stand to do day in a day out, rather than what is going to pay the best.
I did appreciate all the numbers being thrown out. It helps me see if my own estimates are any where in the right ballpark.
Perhaps in Utah it's not that bad, but I live in Manhattan (with my wife and son) and I'm paying close to $18,000/year for a small one-bedroom apartment; some might consider that cheap relative to the area. Now I'm sure there are cheaper places a lot farther from my campus, but then there are other factors that have to be taken into consideration: traveling expenses, crime in neighborhoods, etc. I'm sure you can also make the argument that one should choose a med school that has a low COL if that's an issue but then there are a myriad of other factors to consider as well.
All I'm saying is that although it might work for you, it doesn't mean that you can apply your logic across the nation; therefore, I think that your extrapolating your experiences and applying them to situations that aren't the same.
No jokes allowed.
Yeah, as an aged-out foster youth with zero family, who's been homeless (shelters aren't fun) and is doing this whole college thing alone, 50k sounds sweet.
I know this isn't really important, but you can definitely have a cheap and healthy diet.
Obviously there is a difference depending on location but salaries generally vary depending on location. I've personally seen the extremes of the housing market. One place in the middle of nowhere had three bedroom houses that cost 275 a month for rent (and I'm talking 21century! Crazy right?) and most mid sized cities cost around 700-1200 a month for a 2 bedroom 2 bath apartment. If you are smart and look carefully you can find a decent house and have a lower mortgage than you would pay renting a two bedroom apartment.
I really wasn't trying to say that everyone should "make it work" with that amount of money. I was merely sharing my own situation. I'm sure that if I lived somewhere like manhattan, where rent is so much higher, than my numbers would be different. You're also right that sometimes it makes sense to not go for the cheapest digs if its unsafe or unhealthy. There wasn't really much of a point in my post, just rambling and adding my own experience to everyone else's comments. 😉
I would join the military, but the whole drafting thing.
Plus I would fail the fitness test easily in 2 secs, so they wouldn't want me 😛
OP seems to be a worst case scenario type of thing. An internist that took out maximum loans. In that situation, I certainly don't think medicine is worth it. Personally, I'm anticipating spending about 2-2.5K a month on student loans for ten years, and I don't plan on becoming a PCP. It's just a matter of how you plan it.
So in Manhattan there really aren't any "houses", you would have to look in Brooklyn and Queens, and even then, to get something semi-worthwhile, you would have to compromise other things that aren't worth it when you have a family. Also, a mortgage is a long commitment and in a place where you don't know where you might be for residency and then as an attending, I'm not sure if that would be a good investment. But I do understand your point and if we were physicians with a stable job, I would completely agree.
Yeah, it's a bit different for people like you and I with families. At least for me, if I was single I would live in a small little box with only the necessities. I do appreciate your input and being able to see the differences across the nation; I know one thing, I am not going to stay in Manhattan after schooling when there are so many other better and cheaper places to have a family.
"Smart" only if you ignore costs associated with ownership including housing price fluctuations, maintenance costs, etc. It seems that the conventional wisdom is that buying>renting which can get you in a lot of trouble if you aren't looking at the big picture.
Let me put it this way, my mortgage with insurance is less than 600 a month. I don't know of renting anywhere that can beat that. It is a 30 year fixed loan, so I'm not on some crazy fluctuating intrerest (a.k.a.. going to get screwed later).
If your mortgage is higher than say 700 a month, and if you have no equity, it's not a great idea especially as a single med student who may need to move in 4 years or less.
I can keep my current house if I move and easily rent it out for more than the mortgage cost and buy or rent wherever I move to.
And then you get hit with a major maintenance cost (cheap houses, after all, are generally...cheap). Or a renter doesn't pay. Or the housing market dips to where you have trouble renting it at all (or selling it). Not saying it's a bad deal for you in particular, but it can be a big risk and it isn't a universally "smart" decision.
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That's right, the buyer has to be smart about it, for it to be a smart decision. In our case we paid for a private inspection and knew how much up front maintenance we would need to spend in order to get things how we wanted. There could be all kinds of maintnance needed: painting, carpet, floors, roofing, insulation, electrical work, rewiring, plumbing, and the list goes on. That could be thousand of dollars, so everyone that buys a house should have an expectation to pay for major repairs, just in case. It also helps that it was a foreclosure which is why we got it way below market and appraised values.
The adults around here already know this stuff and know all about the housing market. The young ones coming straight out of undergrad may or may not be aware of options available. We spent several years renting until we found the ideal house for us to purchase.
I'm not advocating it, but if you really wanted to become a physician, and the debt was a major in-convinience, would you not join??
What if your dream school was, say, Hopkins. Yes you could go to a state school, but you could also join the military. They treat their doctors pretty well.
I think a lot of people tend to harshly criticize the military, while the military tends to overplay the experiences and opportunities available within it.
I don't think people realize that schools like Hopkins, Harvard, Columbia, etc. (with a lot of money) give out pretty great financial aid packages; sometimes the average indebtedness is less than most state schools. Ergo, if money was an issue and you got accepted into one of those schools, chances are that you would be better off attending the more expensive school, due to their financial aid packages, than someone at a state school.
Regardless, the military is never an option for those looking to profit financially from it. When you go to Iraq or Afghanistan and see people die, or perhaps you die, it is not worth the sacrifice for the money. You should join because you want to serve your country.
Regardless, the military is never an option for those looking to profit financially from it. When you go to Iraq or Afghanistan and see people die, or perhaps you die, it is not worth the sacrifice for the money. You should join because you want to serve your country.
can you hypothetically join without having to go to battle, go overseas or do all that intense training stuff? Or are those peeps SOL? D:
The military seems like a "good" option, except for that fact that you are in the military. People who WANT to fight for our country should take those spots. The layperson like me who would fail in the whole training **** in 2 seconds isn't a good option for our country 😱
The military seems like a "good" option, except for that fact that you are in the military. People who WANT to fight for our country should take those spots. The layperson like me who would fail in the whole training **** in 2 seconds isn't a good option for our country 😱
Depends, as a doctor you could be stationed at a base for primary care, or in the battlefields for E-med, but I don't think they would ever require you to fight, frontlines (unless some kind of crisis occurred) if you were enlisted as a doctor
