Is medical school worth it? A physicians perspective.

[Gut Shot]

The point isn't that physicians will be poor, it's that primary care physicians are going the way of the dinosaur due to the way reimbursements are paid out.

On the contrary, primary care is the only sizable area where reimbursements are actually creeping upward. In very broad terms, it has been accepted by policymakers that we spend a great deal on procedure-based care given by specialists, and that a lot of that care isn't very good at increasing the quantity or quality of patient life. In the same vein, so to speak, the nation has a shortage of primary care providers, in part because they have been getting the financial shaft for some time.

Hence, we are currently on the front end of a fairly long, grinding shift in reimbursement policy, one that is going to reconstitute some financial incentives for young docs to choose primary care fields. I believe there will always be more money to be had as a specialist, but the return is going to be more modest than in years past.

To support this, check out the 2013 Medicare fee preview and note the biggest winners:

Family Medicine 7%
Geriatrics 4%
Internal Medicine 5%
Pediatrics 5%

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[circulus vitios]

But reimbursement for all those fields is expected to decline too. I've heard some people say that no physician will make over 250K/year soon.

Which people? The nutjobs in the anesthesiology forum?

 

[mimelim]

On the contrary, primary care is the only sizable area where reimbursements are actually creeping upward. In very broad terms, it has been accepted by policymakers that we spend a great deal on procedure-based care given by specialists, and that a lot of that care isn't very good at increasing the quantity or quality of patient life. In the same vein, so to speak, the nation has a shortage of primary care providers, in part because they have been getting the financial shaft for some time.

Hence, we are currently on the front end of a fairly long, grinding shift in reimbursement policy, one that is going to reconstitute some financial incentives for young docs to choose primary care fields. I believe there will always be more money to be had as a specialist, but the return is going to be more modest than in years past.

To support this, check out the 2013 Medicare fee preview and note the biggest winners:

Family Medicine 7%
Geriatrics 4%
Internal Medicine 5%
Pediatrics 5%

I think you give them way too much credit. This is more likely a happy byproduct than an intentional move knowing our policy makers.

 

[Nuel]

Oh, and aren't radiology jobs getting outsourced?

 

[Anathema]

I think the amount you make depends on a lot of factors. Everyone locks in family or general interns under $200,000 or $160,000 but the real limiter is the regulations of the hospital. If you work a crazy amount of hours and take on various responsibilities you can earn well over that (>$500,000).

I think alot of the doom and gloom comes from people working in different areas with different pay regulations.

 

[notbobtrustme]

Oh, and aren't radiology jobs getting outsourced?

That will never happen. When the first malpractice suit against a foreign MD reading studies comes in, every company will trip over their own dicks to hire back US radiologists.

 

[occams_razor]

I wouldn't count on specialists' pay being that high in the future. By any measure, incomes for specialists, while still ok, have been dropping since the 1990s in real dollars while costs have been escalating.

Now more than ever, money is becoming a poor reason to pursue medicine, and I think time will make that conclusion even stronger and apparent. I have a 40% partial scholarship, and I have decided to live cheap, marry a working wife, and try to pay down the debt as fast as possible.

Thank God I don't have prior student debt as opposed to some of my classmates with $50K-$100K in loans already. This whole system is unsustainable, and one day it will come crashing unless we reconstruct our financial programs.

this isn't just a med school/med student phenomenom though. I have a lot of friends in law school with tons of student debt having these same conversations. yet the job outlook/job security for lawyers is terrible in comparison to physicians. I have a friend at upenn law, which costs $55k a year (tuition only, this isn't even including books or other living expenses), who is freaking out because the job market sucks. And people who are saying they wish they did compsci, well I have friends in that field who are having trouble finding employment as well.

anyway, the last few minutes of this video describes why it's still financially worth it to become a physician

https://www.aamc.org/video/first/mdeconomics.htm

 

[notbobtrustme]

But reimbursement for all those fields is expected to decline too. I've heard some people say that no physician will make over 250K/year soon.

People say lots of things and most of the time they're wrong.

 

[Renaissance Man]

That will never happen. When the first malpractice suit against a foreign MD reading studies comes in, every company will trip over their own dicks to hire back US radiologists.

It already does happen, has been for most of the 2000's I believe. They call them "nighthawks." Often times a group will hire a company located in a foreign country to digital read and interpret imaging studies from (for instance) midnight-6:00 am. That way, none of the groups doctors have to be on call at night.

I'm not sure what exactly the regulations are but I am fairly certain that the nighthawk doctors have to be board certified in the United States (someone correct me if I am wrong). A radiologist I know decently well uses a firm in India, and he says that the partners will review the overnight cases to cover their butts, just in case.

 

[Nuel]

It already does happen, has been for most of the 2000's I believe. They call them "nighthawks." Often times a group will hire a company located in a foreign country to digital read and interpret imaging studies from (for instance) midnight-6:00 am. That way, none of the groups doctors have to be on call at night.

I'm not sure what exactly the regulations are but I am fairly certain that the nighthawk doctors have to be board certified in the United States (someone correct me if I am wrong). A radiologist I know decently well uses a firm in India, and he says that the partners will review the overnight cases to cover their butts, just in case.

I was thinking of doing radiology or rad onc, but those fields seem so narrow and risky to pursue, especially rads.

 

[Renaissance Man]

I was thinking of doing radiology or rad onc, but those fields seem so narrow and risky to pursue, especially rads.

I wasn't trying to say that radiology is going to be irrelevant or not a good field. There are more scans being performed then ever, more patients, and less and less doctors. Something has got to give. I am sure that even groups that use outsourcing services see plenty of images, and do quite well.

 

[sylvanthus]

It already does happen, has been for most of the 2000's I believe. They call them "nighthawks." Often times a group will hire a company located in a foreign country to digital read and interpret imaging studies from (for instance) midnight-6:00 am. That way, none of the groups doctors have to be on call at night.

I'm not sure what exactly the regulations are but I am fairly certain that the nighthawk doctors have to be board certified in the United States (someone correct me if I am wrong). A radiologist I know decently well uses a firm in India, and he says that the partners will review the overnight cases to cover their butts, just in case.

Apparently nighthawk can only do preliminary reads and someone here in the US has to confirm it and do a final read.

 

[OCDOCDOCD]

this isn't just a med school/med student phenomenom though. I have a lot of friends in law school with tons of student debt having these same conversations. yet the job outlook/job security for lawyers is terrible in comparison to physicians. I have a friend at upenn law, which costs $55k a year (tuition only, this isn't even including books or other living expenses), who is freaking out because the job market sucks. And people who are saying they wish they did compsci, well I have friends in that field who are having trouble finding employment as well.

Indeed. Virtually every career is much worse off now than it was 30 years ago, and getting worse. This isn't a recent trend due to the economy either, things have been going steadily downhill for decades. The only exception is if your job happens to be an upper management position in a healthy industry, in which case you're doing better than ever and things are only getting better.

FWIW, medicine is one of the least hit career fields of this trend, and ignoring things like "job satisfaction" you're really not going to do better unless you're willing to go after a job that has a lot of uncertainty as to whether or not you'll ever make it to the point you want to be at (ex: senator, CEO of a respectably large corporation/bank, hollywood actor, professional athlete, etc).

 

[def1]

I just want to add this because this thread is a little too depressing.

While I was interviewing at Houston, one of the older surgeons was giving us a speech and he went on to say how much he loved medicine and that not only would he do it for free if he had to but he'd also be willing to pay to continue doing it.

Obviously its different to say one thing and live another, but I agree with him. If you truly love to do something, money is going to be the last of your concerns.

 

[Frazier]

I just want to add this because this thread is a little too depressing.

While I was interviewing at Houston, one of the older surgeons was giving us a speech and he went on to say how much he loved medicine and that not only would he do it for free if he had to but he'd also be willing to pay to continue doing it.

Obviously its different to say one thing and live another, but I agree with him. If you truly love to do something, money is going to be the last of your concerns.

At one of my interviews, we were all given a rather somber speech by a retired surgeon that could be summarized as "I love medicine, but it cost me my family. Please, remain balanced in your life with school/training."

While it didn't have much to do with money, your quote reminded me of the experience (as to the "cost" of being a physician). The fact the school had him give this speech really boosted my respect both for their institution's culture and their honesty.

 

[Gut Shot]

I think you give them way too much credit.

I think you give yourself way too much credit.

This is more likely a happy byproduct than an intentional move knowing our policy makers.

No, it has been discussed ad nauseum for years. It's neither new nor rocket science.

 

[phikapdoctor]

Dad say be doctor, make money. I have to..


Sent from my iPhone using SDN Mobile app please excuse punctuation and spelling

 

[def1]

At one of my interviews, we were all given a rather somber speech by a retired surgeon that could be summarized as "I love medicine, but it cost me my family. Please, remain balanced in your life with school/training."

While it didn't have much to do with money, your quote reminded me of the experience (as to the "cost" of being a physician). The fact the school had him give this speech really boosted my respect both for their institution's culture and their honesty.

Yea in my opinion the cost of lost time is much more worrisome then the cost of money.

I would rather be doing what I love and making relatively low money then doing something I hate and making good money. I grew up in the lower middle class so money is nothing special to me. Don't get me wrong, I would love to live comfortably and have a good salary, but money comes and goes and is a very materialistic thing to crave for. Happiness is where your desires should be.

Time on the other hand is something that once you lose, you can never gain back. And thats what really scares me about medicine. But I believe, if you are loving what you are doing, you won't look back and regret the time you wasted because you'll be satisfied with what you did.

But yea, even as physicians you have to keep your priorities straight. If family is more important than your career, then you need to make sacrifices involving your career and not the other way around. I just finished reading Gifted Hands by Ben Carson and at the end he describes how he made a lot of sacrifices in his career to be a better husband and father and that made me respect him a lot more.

 

[thecgrblue]

Yeah and limit is 75K filing single or 150K filing jointly so noooope. Not to mention the deduction tops off at $2500 a year...doesn't really make much of a dent anyway.

Hmmm...then go ahead and claim it when you're in repayment and then send me a check for $2500...since it doesn't make much of dent.

The interest was just one example of factors left out of the OPs original argument. I felt like listing examples to further elucidate my larger point but realized my time was better spent elsewhere.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Hmmm...then go ahead and claim it when you're in repayment and then send me a check for $2500...since it doesn't make much of dent.

The interest was just one example of factors left out of the OPs original argument. I felt like listing examples to further elucidate my larger point but realized my time was better spent elsewhere.

I take it you've never filed a tax return before or you would know how deductions work. So many kids having mom and dad do their taxes...it's ridiculous.

That $2500 is money taken off the top that does not get taxed. You do not get that $2500 back. The amount you're saving is marginal tax rate x 2500. Even in residency if you're married filing jointly you'll be saving something like $375 (unless your spouse is working and kicks you up to the next bracket) or if you're single it'll be $675. So maybe you're getting 3K total during an average residency? That's all great but hardly very significant with amount of debt we're talking about here.

 

[MiracleforMD]

I take it you've never filed a tax return before or you would know how deductions work. So many kids having mom and dad do their taxes...it's ridiculous.

That $2500 is money taken off the top that does not get taxed. You do not get that $2500 back. The amount you're saving is marginal tax rate x 2500. Even in residency if you're married filing jointly you'll be saving something like $375 (unless your spouse is working and kicks you up to the next bracket) or if you're single it'll be $675. So maybe you're getting 3K total during an average residency? That's all great but hardly very significant with amount of debt we're talking about here.

Oh, tax deductible doesn't mean you just get to keep it?

 

[thecgrblue]

.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Of course not. I let my wife or my 2 year old son do it for me. What adult with a family would bother filing their own taxes?

The sad thing is it's apparently true. The only people I've seen get tax credit and tax deduction mixed up? People who don't do their own taxes.

Sarcasm doesn't hide the fact that you haven't quite known what you were talking about during this whole back and forth. Although I do agree, an argument based on finances should include more than some "back of the envelope" calculations that don't even get the tax brackets right.

 

[omare61]

I'm going into medicine because nothing really interests me as much.

Not financial

 

[earf]

I read through most of this thread, but didn't see this mentioned yet. I read his book and he talks through the hours needed for post-secondary training, how much physicians get paid pre- and post-tax, and how much each specialty makes per hour based on the cost of a medical education in time and money.

http://benbrownmd.wordpress.com/2010/06/20/informedconsent/

 

[omare61]

Oh, you fool... this is SDN!
If you're not in it for:

A. The money
Your money is taken away paying debts, taxes and malpractice
B. The fame
I'm sure I know people know my physician by name
C. The chicks
Why would a chick want someone who works long hours, usually very tired and overworked and not making enough money

You ain't at the good place.

Bold.

I know you are being sarcastic, but I think pre-meds in SDN glorify being a doctor more than it should be. You should glorify your passion to be a doctor but not the actual idea of being a doctor. Doctors should be as passionate as Ph.D. Those people who go for Ph.D are not doing it for the "money", they are doing it because of a passion. We need these kinds of people in medicine.

 

[jl lin]

I'm not sure what planet your from but $50k a year post-tax is NOTHING. After you pay your mortgage, student loan payment, car payment and so forth how much will you have left over per month? Nothing. How are you going to save for your kid(s) college fees? Tuition is set to double in the next 20 years so expect to pay close to $300k for a full 4 years at a private university (if thats where they want to go) else you're still looking at $150k for a state school. Is this what you want for your kids? What about yourself? If you wanted to sit around and make 50k you might as well have gone straight into the workforce after college... i'm sure novartis pays their research and sales teams more than 50k a year.

B/c the dude is "living" in the year 1975. That's why. Yea, that's a great income for 37 years ago.

 

[jl lin]

I'm going into medicine because nothing really interests me as much.

Not financial

You still have to pay the piper, just like everyone else. Bottom line.

No you shouldn't go into it for the money; but a consistent and decent compensation should be commensurate with the time and energy invested and the wages lost.

 

[jl lin]

I just want to add this because this thread is a little too depressing.

While I was interviewing at Houston, one of the older surgeons was giving us a speech and he went on to say how much he loved medicine and that not only would he do it for free if he had to but he'd also be willing to pay to continue doing it.

Obviously its different to say one thing and live another, but I agree with him. If you truly love to do something, money is going to be the last of your concerns.

When he is doing just THAT, please let us know. Even the best altruists have to live, pay bills, have food, shelter, fuel, etc.

It's called Maslow's Hierachy of Needs. It's hard to help others if you don't have your crap together. Survivor 101.

 

[omare61]

You still have to pay the piper, just like everyone else. Bottom line.

No you shouldn't go into it for the money; but a consistent and decent compensation should be commensurate with the time and energy invested and the wages lost.

+1

We should be compensated just enough to get the rewards of time and energy invested and the wages lost, but the price and magnitude of the "ideal" compensation varies person by person. For me, the prestige and the autonomy and the altruism in the field is 75% of the compensation I need. The other 25 is just enough to get by with a family.

Sadly, when salaries decrease enough, people will be diverted from the medical field but currently people are attracted to the "box price" that they see in typing "physician salaries" on google. I like this thread because it points out how medicine is not as glorifying as pre-meds and people think it is. I want less people to be applying to medical school, just like all pre-meds, but its not going to happen if the "box price" salaries remain this high. People are money driven--people will do whatever they need to get $$ and that includes a field as long and tough as medicine.

 

[KnuxNole]

Wow, it sure must be nice to be able to say that.

In general, to me, making more than 70-80 thousand seems uber rich. Most people make 40k-50, that's normal middle class, and I know that doctors are FAR from being in the "rich" category. Maybe like 5% of physicians. There's this strange myth with laypeople that physician makes millions and all that crap. I know noone is crazy enough to expect getting millions as a doctor lol

Whatever makes you happy. There are people who want lots of fancy stuff, which is good. And there are people who want a simple life, which is good too.

Plus, 95% of the physicians who specialize in a field which has "big earnings" I would feel miserable doing. So, I would have loads of money, but would not want to go to work for more than 1 hour.

 

[circulus vitios]

+1

We should be compensated just enough to get the rewards of time and energy invested and the wages lost, but the price and magnitude of the "ideal" compensation varies person by person. For me, the prestige and the autonomy and the altruism in the field is 75% of the compensation I need. The other 25 is just enough to get by with a family.

 

[thepoopologist]

After hearing of a family medicine resident in one of the worst residencies tied to my school offered $300,000 for six months work in a very rural part of the US, I think the OPs post is bull****. If you're a PCP and don't look for a high paying rural job for 1 to 2 years after residency and go for the $160,000/year metropolitan city job employed by huge HMO, then that's your problem. Let's not forget that post residency a PCP will be gainfully employed for the remainder of their life should they choose to work that long.

Medical school is financial suicide if you fail out or are dismissed at any point during your training. Post-residency it still looks like its about what you decide to grab.

 

[Anathema]

After hearing of a family medicine resident in one of the worst residencies tied to my school offered $300,000 for six months work in a very rural part of the US, I think the OPs post is bull****. If you're a PCP and don't look for a high paying rural job for 1 to 2 years after residency and go for the $160,000/year metropolitan city job employed by huge HMO, then that's your problem. Let's not forget that post residency a PCP will be gainfully employed for the remainder of their life should they choose to work that long.

Medical school is financial suicide if you fail out or are dismissed at any point during your training. Post-residency it still looks like its about what you decide to grab.

Precisely, it's about YOUR choice of where you go and use your training. If you decide to work 9-5 and do some on call in the city then yes, you will most likely get $160,000 or less.

 

[alamo4]

It already does happen, has been for most of the 2000's I believe. They call them "nighthawks." Often times a group will hire a company located in a foreign country to digital read and interpret imaging studies from (for instance) midnight-6:00 am. That way, none of the groups doctors have to be on call at night.

I'm not sure what exactly the regulations are but I am fairly certain that the nighthawk doctors have to be board certified in the United States (someone correct me if I am wrong). A radiologist I know decently well uses a firm in India, and he says that the partners will review the overnight cases to cover their butts, just in case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleradiology

 

[Owlie]

From what I understand, according to the hours worked during residency, and the money attained, some make less than minimum wage, even though they're getting ~50k a year.

 

[ShenanigansMD]

Yeah I've heard of Nighthawks living the life in Spain. Not a bad gig.

 

[def1]

When he is doing just THAT, please let us know. Even the best altruists have to live, pay bills, have food, shelter, fuel, etc.

It's called Maslow's Hierachy of Needs. It's hard to help others if you don't have your crap together. Survivor 101.

Thats true but 50k is upper middle class. Anyone who thinks that 50k is nothing is either from a very well to do family or has no idea what most Americans actually make. So making 50k is hardly not having one's crap together.

Sure you can make close to 50k straight out of college but would you be happy doing what you're doing making that much? And the chance of that salary increasing is not a lot. For a doctor you're salary will probably increase a decent amount and once you're debt is paid, then you are making much more than that person straight out of college.

Money is a dumb reason to get into medicine. If I wanted to make money, I would get an MBA and run my own business. And if I did that, I'd be working just as hard and as many hours as an MD doing something I hate.

Nothing in life comes easy, thats why its better to do what you love and get by with what you have, then to be miserable and rich.

 

[Anathema]

Roommate is an actuary, starts off at $60,000. He'll probably have a penthouse within the decade.

 

[KnuxNole]

True, the average american wishes they can make 50k a year. A lot of people will be blessed if they were given that amount on the spot

 

[alamo4]

I just want to add this because this thread is a little too depressing.

While I was interviewing at Houston, one of the older surgeons was giving us a speech and he went on to say how much he loved medicine and that not only would he do it for free if he had to but he'd also be willing to pay to continue doing it.

Obviously its different to say one thing and live another, but I agree with him. If you truly love to do something, money is going to be the last of your concerns.

A lot of what was/is enjoyable about medicine is leaving. This is true of many fields, but there is a massive loss of autonomy, which sucks. You follow all these rules and try to make all these people happy, so that one day your judgment is what is important. Unfortunately, you get there and your judgment doesn't matter, what you do will be massively dictated by what you (and your institution) will get paid for and what will help you avoid a lawsuit. You will have infinite metrics and guidelines you will have to follow, which will turn much of your days into just identifying which protocol to follow.

Decreased work hours are good for your personal life, especially relationships with spouse and children, but they show that you are an interchangeable cog in the system, doing shift type work. More vacation time means that you are easily replaceable.

Instead of being a master chef creating amazing recipes from the fresh produce of the day, you will be like a McDonald's employee following the rules in the binder to turn out standardized healthcare. Everything gets standardized in a big system (e.g. Kaiser), which is where much of medicine is heading, from the color of the walls, to what toys they have in the pediatrician waiting rooms, and certainly what indications lead to what tests and treatments.

All the talk from people like Atul Gawande on checklists (his opinion piece on why hospitals should be like the Cheesecake Factory is an example), means that medicine is going the way of the airline industry. Instead of Top Gun's Maverick at the stick, we have replaced the heroes of aviation with essentially bus drivers.

All this means overall, on average, much better care for patients, better personal lives for doctors, and a more affordable healthcare system. But it's a lot less fun. No disrespect to Cheesecake Factory, McDonalds, and city bus drivers, but it is less fun with less of the individualism in the profession.

I'm not saying it is terrible, but I think it's important to think about the daily grind, that will only get more grinding

 

[rubisco88]

So glad i am a Texas resident and will probably be attending an in state school. Can't beat 15 k a year

 

[syoung]

This thread and all of its opinions and facts, need to be read by everyone... Just for serious consideration.

 

[amad01]

That's about $2,085/mo. for:
Rent
Heat/light
Phone/Internet
Food (groceries or ready-made/meal plan)
Toiletries
Cleaning supplies or service
Clothing and footwear
Laundry/dry cleaning
Entertainment (whether movies, concerts, dinner out, drinks, sports)
Transportation both day-to-day and trips "home" if you are away at school
Health insurance, deductables and co-pays plus medications

Some of these costs might be folded into the cost of on-campus housing but many medical schools do not offer school housing. There is a trade-off between the savings associated with a roommate (or living at home with parents) and the aggravation.

Keep in mind, too, that you will be at an age when many friends, relatives and classmates will be getting married and so there may be costs associated with attending those events.

So does it cost $100,000 for all this during undergrad? I see no difference... many students have part time jobs to pay for all these things during undergrad and no way do they net $100,000 in the 4 years... you'd have to make ~$30/hr (before tax) working 20 hrs/week to bring home 100k during undergrad.

 

[amad01]

I don't want to disclose my family situation but I am a non-traditional so I have a lot of baggage of my own. Also a single decent apartment in Richmond can easily run 900-1000 bucks. I lived in NY and parts of California where a single bedroom apartment for 1400 bucks is nothing but average. Regardless for the last poster to automatically assume that spending 25k a year is lobster dinner and a luxurious life is just

Lobster dinner is an example of something that is unnecessary... if you are BORROWING 25k a year on yourself to live, then it is very likely that something you are spending money on is unnecessary...

I will be smart with my expenses. I learned to do that living in block houses at the southern tip of the world. I cooked water every morning and dumped it on my head to shower. I ate noodles with tomato paste almost every day... I had about $50/month to use besides rent/utilities and made it work. Not saying a medical student should live like this, but you can figure it out and make it work or you can rationalize poor decisions and pay for it later.

 

[syoung]

So does it cost $100,000 for all this during undergrad? I see no difference... many students have part time jobs to pay for all these things during undergrad and no way do they net $100,000 in the 4 years... you'd have to make ~$30/hr (before tax) working 20 hrs/week to bring home 100k during undergrad.

What kind of math do you employ that profits 30/hr * 20 hr/wk * 52 wk/yr = 100k???????????????

 

[Nuel]

Lobster dinner is an example of something that is unnecessary... if you are BORROWING 25k a year on yourself to live, then it is very likely that something you are spending money on is unnecessary...

I will be smart with my expenses. I learned to do that living in block houses at the southern tip of the world. I cooked water every morning and dumped it on my head to shower. I ate noodles with tomato paste almost every day... I had about $50/month to use besides rent/utilities and made it work. Not saying a medical student should live like this, but you can figure it out and make it work or you can rationalize poor decisions and pay for it later.

I live on $22K a year in an expensive city in the NE and I'm pretty frugal. Car payments (yes, I need the car), insurance, rent, food (I cook a lot and hardly eat out), gas, etc. are all serviced on this cash. I hardly go out and spend money. I hardly shop. Depending on his circumstance, $25K doesn't indicate a life of luxury. A lot of my classmates live on about $20-$30K per year depending on prior circumstances.

 

[jl lin]

Thats true but 50k is upper middle class. Anyone who thinks that 50k is nothing is either from a very well to do family or has no idea what most Americans actually make. So making 50k is hardly not having one's crap together.

Sure you can make close to 50k straight out of college but would you be happy doing what you're doing making that much? And the chance of that salary increasing is not a lot. For a doctor you're salary will probably increase a decent amount and once you're debt is paid, then you are making much more than that person straight out of college.

Money is a dumb reason to get into medicine. If I wanted to make money, I would get an MBA and run my own business. And if I did that, I'd be working just as hard and as many hours as an MD doing something I hate.

Nothing in life comes easy, thats why its better to do what you love and get by with what you have, then to be miserable and rich.

No offense, but I think you are missing the point.

Calculate wages per hour for residents. Really it's much less than for a professional nurse--non-advanced practice or non-management.

 

[jl lin]

What kind of math do you employ that profits 30/hr * 20 hr/wk * 52 wk/yr = 100k???????????????

Right. $30/hr * 20 * 52 weeks =$31,200.

I don't get why people are missing the big point on this....unless they are people with pretty much ziltch for overhead and are definitely not carrying a mortgage, have crap for an electric bill, eat ramen noodles every night, three times per day, have crapola for medical insurance contributions, don't pay property taxes. . .I could go on and on.

So I am thinking a fair number of people here don't have any major responsibilities, other than school and ramen noodles, apartment rents, and scant utility fees.

Undergrad-->4years, MS--> 4 years, average residency time-frame, 3-5 years--looking at 4 or more for a great many things.

Seven to ten years or more is a long time to put your life on hold--if you are looking to start a family, for example. A lot of residents do NOT wait until they have completed their post-graduate clinical training to get married, start a family, and start taking on some major responsibilities--which also happen to be pretty expensive.

 

[ChartaBona]

No offense, but I think you are missing the point.

Calculate wages per hour for residents. Really it's much less than for a professional nurse--non-advanced practice or non-management.

Per hour, the salary of a resident can be less than that of a CNA. I make $12.50 right now, and I get time and a half after 40 hours. If I worked 80 hours a week, I'd make over $60,000/yr before taxes.

I think my back would snap like a twig if I worked that many hours as a CNA, however.