Is medical school worth it?

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JohnnyDoc

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I am a third year biomedical engineering student. I have taken all the prereq classes for medical school and am studying for the MCAT this summer. I am also shadowing an orthopedic surgeon this summer as well and asked him how he liked his job. What he said was nothing too glamorous. For example, the long work hours per day, including work in the office and work that has to be taken home. The salary has been decreasing. He also mentioned that he would look into other professions if he had the chance to do it all over again. He also recommended a career as a PA or a PT; he reasoned that there is more free time, in addition to a decent salary.

I want to earn a high annual salary and have a job that has good job security. From what I have seen when I shadowed, I liked the patient-physician interaction part of the career. I also liked the problem-solving as a physician. Main question is whether medical school is needed to get to my goals.

My current plan is to keep studying for the MCAT, and see how I do on that. If poorly, I would be aiming for a masters in biomedical engineering and an MBA, then work in the industry. The only problem with that is the poor job security.

I have been searching all over the internet for plus-and-minus for the job as a physician and engineers. Does anyone on here have any advice and/or websites for more info?
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You'll make more money (even with loans) than you will (most likely) going the masters/MBA route.
 
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By the way, I'm interested in both careers: engineering and medicine. I was talking to a first year medical student about his schedule, and he showed me his classes. They all looked pretty interesting!
 
The high barriers to entry into orthopedic surgery combined with high debt, liability and stress make PA with ortho 'residency' look pretty sweet. Biomedical engineers do very well for themselves in my part of the country, but I'm not sure about job security / prospects. Medical school is challenging and often fun but a lot of residents and physicians will advise against it.
 
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Med school is rough dude. If you're iffy about it don't do it, if you're willing to sacrifice and you know its the job for you then go for it. If you would be just as happy being a PA then I'd go that route, but if you know being a doctor is what you want and being a PA wouldn't please you then go all the way. Take the MCAT, shadow and see what direction it takes you.
 
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Koan said:
The high barriers to entry into orthopedic surgery combined with high debt, liability and stress make PA with ortho 'residency' look pretty sweet. Biomedical engineers do very well for themselves in my part of the country, but I'm not sure about job security / prospects. Medical school is challenging and often fun but a lot of residents and physicians will advise against it.
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You'll also make 1/5 to 1/3 of what an ortho surgeon makes, so there's that.
 
DermViser said:
With a much higher ROI on the PA degree with the level of education.
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I'd rather have a higher overall return than a better ROI. PA school is like investing one dollar and making five, but being a physician is like investing eight to make twenty- sure, you invested a hell of a lot more, but you also earned a lot more than you would have otherwise as well.
 
Mad Jack said:
I'd rather have a higher overall return than a better ROI. PA school is like investing one dollar and making five, but being a physician is like investing eight to make twenty- sure, you invested a hell of a lot more, but you also earned a lot more than you would have otherwise as well.
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This HIGHLY depends on the medical specialty in question - of which you have absolutely no assurance of getting.
 
@DermViser ... You think a PA degree might be a better ROI than an ortho surgeon... I will be shocked if there are many PAs making 250k+/year... Last time I checked ortho docs make 450k an average...
 
If you get into medicine solely for the "money", you will end up like that orthopedic surgeon you shadowed, complaining that high 6-figures-per-year is not livable.

Forget talking to him about what he thinks of the salary. Doctors make good money - we all know that. Look at what he does all day - could you do that for the rest of your life and be happy?

*edited to fix an inaccuracy.
 
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demayette said:
@DermViser ... You think a PA degree might be a better ROI than an ortho surgeon... I will be shocked if there are many PAs making 250k+/year... Last time I checked ortho docs make 450k an average...
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Look up the definition of what ROI is based on the number of years of education invested and tuition costs. It's obvious based on your post that you don't really know the definition.
 
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DermViser said:
This HIGHLY depends on the medical specialty in question - of which you have absolutely no assurance of getting.
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You also have no assurance of getting a high-paying PA position. On average you're going to brush right up on 100k for 100k in debt, while most medical students are looking at around 200k for 250k in debt if they end up in IM or FM.
 
PA schools are just as expensive as med schools even thought it's 2-3 years...
 
demayette said:
@DermViser ... You think a PA degree might be a better ROI than an ortho surgeon... I will be shocked if there are many PAs making 250k+/year... Last time I checked ortho docs make 450k an average...
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He literally just say it depends on the specialty... everybody picks Ortho. But even if you were Peds or FM the rate would be at what @Mad Jack was suggesting... where overall return was more important than ROI.
 
Mad Jack said:
You also have no assurance of getting a high-paying PA position. On average you're going to brush right up on 100k for 100k in debt, while most medical students are looking at around 200k for 250k in debt if they end up in IM or FM.
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Again, based on actual PA tuition costs, even a FM/IM PA has a better ROI (lifestyle, money) than the physician who went into FM/IM (without subspecializing).
 
demayette said:
PA schools are just as expensive as med schools even thought it's 2-3 years...
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Look at MCPHS- you could easily rack up 200k over three years of PA school there, on top of whatever undergrad debt you've already got. It's over 33k a semester FFS. That's an almost inescapable debt hole if you don't end up working more than one job.
 
This is a question only you can answer for yourself. It's a huge emotional, time, and money investment. You won't find that answer on this board. If money and job security is what is most important to you then there are plenty of other low stress jobs to choose from.
 
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If @DermViser is talking about the BS med students have to go thru, that's a whole different ballgame.
 
DermViser said:
Again, based on actual PA tuition costs, even a FM/IM PA has a better ROI (lifestyle, money) than the physician who went into FM/IM (without subspecializing).
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I don't know of many PA students that have graduated with less than 100k in debt. I was honestly lowballing it.

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/school-of...ealth-science-physician-assistant/faq/#PAcost Damn near 100k WITHOUT room and board to attend, easily 140k with.

http://www.springfieldcollege.edu/a...ian-assistant-grad-program/index#.U865UfldXm4 Total COA is 150k

http://medicine.yale.edu/pa/life/tuition.aspx Yale's total COA is 151k
 
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DermViser said:
If you think that a FM/IM physician is making 220k right out of residency doing outpatient primary care, then you are in for a big shock.
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I said 200k... Even if it was 18ok... That is what they make in my area. I don't know about other parts of the country.
 
Mad Jack said:
I don't know of many PA students that have graduated with less than 100k in debt. I was honestly lowballing it.

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/school-of...ealth-science-physician-assistant/faq/#PAcost Damn near 100k WITHOUT room and board to attend, easily 140k with.

http://www.springfieldcollege.edu/a...ian-assistant-grad-program/index#.U865UfldXm4 Total COA is 150k

http://medicine.yale.edu/pa/life/tuition.aspx Yale's total COA is 151k
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Yeah, it's bc in the NE where everything is inflated. Of course Yale will charge a ridiculous amount. Try everywhere else.
 
demayette said:
I said 200k... Even if it was 18ok... That is what they make in my area. I don't know about other parts of the country.
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180K for the level of medical school debt now, is ridiculous and is a negative ROI.
 
Not to mention the investment to even GET IN to PA school. PA school is actually arguably more competitive to get into. You almost need a masters degree before even really having a shot at PA school. So now we are talking Undergrad, Masters, PA school. That debt is terrifying without at least 150K (a reasonable number for FM out of residency) coming in a year.
 
I don't know about NP schools, but the few PA schools I looked into before deciding to go to med school were very expensive (COA 120k+), and med school will cost me 220k...
 
DermViser said:
Yeah, it's bc in the NE where everything is inflated. Of course Yale will charge a ridiculous amount. Try everywhere else.
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I can post pages of PA programs that cost more than 100k to attend all over the country. Most PA programs are at private schools, so they tend to cost a boatload of money.
 
Mad Jack said:
I can post pages of PA programs that cost more than 100k to attend all over the country. Most PA programs are at private schools, so they tend to cost a boatload of money.
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Actually, they're not.:sendoff:
 
demayette said:
I don't know about NP schools, but the few PA schools I looked into before deciding to go to med school were very expensive (COA 120k+), and med school will cost me 220k...
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They also don't have to do a residency.
 
DermViser said:
180K for the level of medical school debt now, is ridiculous and is a negative ROI.
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PA don't start making 100k right out of school either... Most of them start making 60K-7oK...
 
Awesome Sauceome said:
Not to mention the investment to even GET IN to PA school. PA school is actually arguably more competitive to get into. You almost need a masters degree before even really having a shot at PA school. So now we are talking Undergrad, Masters, PA school. That debt is terrifying without at least 150K (a reasonable number for FM out of residency) coming in a year.
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Um, no. Absolutely not correct.
 
demayette said:
PA don't start making 100k right out of school either... Most of them start making 60K-7oK...
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Depends on specialty and is pretty darn good esp. with much more lifestyle friendly hours.
 
DermViser said:
Bc that's so difficult to get.:rolleyes: Nearly anything qualifies as medical contact hours.
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Not when you are competing with RN/LPN/Surge Tech, Rad tech/Paramedics/ Respiratory Therapist... You don't know anything about PA schools bro... Stop talking!
 
DermViser said:
Um, no. Absolutely not correct.
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Um, yes. Absolutely correct. The past generation of PAs (even just a few years ago) absolutely did not have to. But the recent and future batches requirements are through the roof. Having a masters is by no means a requirement set by the school. But it is something that makes it so that you are actually in the running for admission. Blame it on the economy or whatever, but the number of applicants to PA school is very high. You have to be extremely ocmpetitive to have a real shot at it. I know a few PA who are 5-10 years older than me who got in without a masters. But EVERY person I know that does not have a masters has not gotten in. Every person that I know that does have a master has gotten in.... correlation?
 
demayette said:
Not when you are competing with RN/LPN/Surge Tech, Rad tech/Paramedics/ Respiratory Therapist... You don't know anything about PA schools bro... Stop talking!
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You know that PAs don't do what RN/LPN/Surge tech/Rad techs, etc. do , right bro?
 
Awesome Sauceome said:
Um, yes. Absolutely correct. The past generation of PAs (even just a few years ago) absolutely did not have to. But the recent and future batches requirements are through the roof. Having a masters is by no means a requirement set by the school. But it is something that makes it so that you are actually in the running for admission. Blame it on the economy or whatever, but the number of applicants to PA school is very high. You have to be extremely ocmpetitive to have a real shot at it. I know a few PA who are 5-10 years older than me who got in without a masters. But EVERY person I know that does not have a masters has not gotten in. Every person that I know that does have a master has gotten in.... correlation?
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Hence, why the saying goes, "correlation is not causation".
 
Awesome Sauceome said:
Um, yes. Absolutely correct. The past generation of PAs (even just a few years ago) absolutely did not have to. But the recent and future batches requirements are through the roof. Having a masters is by no means a requirement set by the school. But it is something that makes it so that you are actually in the running for admission. Blame it on the economy or whatever, but the number of applicants to PA school is very high. You have to be extremely ocmpetitive to have a real shot at it. I know a few PA who are 5-10 years older than me who got in without a masters. But EVERY person I know that does not have a masters has not gotten in. Every person that I know that does have a master has gotten in.... correlation?
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Apparently @DermViser don't know that much about PA school but keeps giving his opinion about it... I got into PA/med schools and PA schools is not easy to get into...
 
Awesome Sauceome said:
he is talking about getting the hours, not what PAs do... Its hard to get those hours BEFORE even having a shot at admission.
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And I'm telling you it IS easy to get those hours. Even "medical assisting" counts as contact hours.
 
DermViser said:
And I'm telling you it IS easy to get those hours. Even "medical assisting" counts as contact hours.
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You apparently know nothing about the PA admission process... Yeah MA hours count, but you will be competing with RN/LPN/Paramedics/Rad tech/Respiratory Therapists who have been working for 5+ years..
 
DermViser said:
And I'm telling you it IS easy to get those hours. Even "medical assisting" counts as contact hours.
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yea but to become a medical assistant NOW (again not 5-10 years ago). It takes 1+ years of schooling separate from your normal undergrad stuff. Which is what demayette is saying: the types of jobs that help you even get those hours are increasingly changing (by law) to require separate schooling.

Even to get a CNA or scribe job is challenging to do while in school because of the increased requirements.

I take back what I was saying Derm, you arent necessarily wrong. But it seems like your knowledge on the PA admission stuff is sort of caught back in the past when you were applying to medical school. A lot has changed even in the past couple of years.

Also a a side note, a lot of PA programs are raising their tuition at a higher rate even than Medical schools are. Supply and demand?
 
Just going to step out now before anyone else responds. This thread has quickly spiraled out from the original question. Plus I dont like feeling frustrated if it can be avoided.
 
The process isn't more or less competitive than medical school, it's just entirely different. Most PA schools around here the students have an average of 4,000 clinical hours on admission. Nurses, paramedics, and RTs are heavily favored, so you're at a serious disadvantage if you don't have a prior degree in healthcare. EMT, CNA, surg tech, medical assistant, and other certificate-level clinicians are second-tier when it comes to admission. Average GPAs are usually around 3.4-3.6, so it isn't exactly a cakewalk GPA-wise either. Most schools get over 1,000 applicants for 30-50 seats, so they can afford to take nothing but seasoned clinicians with solid GPAs.

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/school-of...th-science-physician-assistant/program-goals/
http://paprogram.yale.edu/admissions/statistics.aspx
http://paprogram.mc.duke.edu/Admissions/
http://med.emory.edu/bulletin/degree_programs/physician_assistant/program.html
 
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