Is scutting your students good for them?

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it gets even better. we aren't supposed to scut students out to get food here. so last night, i was the night float r2 and i offered to get food for the overnight interns. somehow, an ms3 (who don't stay overnight here) managed to tack her order onto the list. so i scutted myself out, picked up food for the whole team (including the ms3) while the ms3 did whatever it is that ms3's do while waiting for their upper level resident to pick up food.



I've had a couple med students pull the ol' "That's not part of my educational responsibilities/duties" before. We'd all look at him/her, incredulous, as the med student then proceeded to walk away and read somewhere. You can be sure they got it later on.
 
I've had a couple med students pull the ol' "That's not part of my educational responsibilities/duties" before. We'd all look at him/her, incredulous, as the med student then proceeded to walk away and read somewhere. You can be sure they got it later on.

that's exactly what i'm referring to - so how did they "get it" later on? did you tell the attending doing their eval that they sucked? if so, was it legit? that is, if they did an overall decent job but didn't do the scut crap, did you still try to give it to them nonetheless? this is all academic to me since i'll never be evaluating MS3s as a path resident, but i want to hear how ya'll think.
 
that's exactly what i'm referring to - so how did they "get it" later on? did you tell the attending doing their eval that they sucked? if so, was it legit? that is, if they did an overall decent job but didn't do the scut crap, did you still try to give it to them nonetheless? this is all academic to me since i'll never be evaluating MS3s as a path resident, but i want to hear how ya'll think.


they wouldn't have "works well as part of the team" in their evaluation
 
it gets even better. we aren't supposed to scut students out to get food here. so last night, i was the night float r2 and i offered to get food for the overnight interns. somehow, an ms3 (who don't stay overnight here) managed to tack her order onto the list. so i scutted myself out, picked up food for the whole team (including the ms3) while the ms3 did whatever it is that ms3's do while waiting for their upper level resident to pick up food.

Oh I've been terribly scutted out as a med student. One of the worst times was when I had to go pick up my OB/GYN resident's dry cleaning. 🙁 👎
 
at my med school, particularly on surgery, i was definitely the take-out b****. one time i was shorted alot of money, essentially had to buy food for the team. i can't believe you picked up dry cleaning 😱
 
at my med school, particularly on surgery, i was definitely the take-out b****. one time i was shorted alot of money, essentially had to buy food for the team. i can't believe you picked up dry cleaning 😱

I've picked up take-out food on numerous occasions (even once as an intern!) but at least I got to eat that food as well.

I didn't get anything out of picking up someone else's dry-cleaning. Damn I hated that OB/GYN resident.
 
I've picked up take-out food on numerous occasions (even once as an intern!) but at least I got to eat that food as well.

I didn't get anything out of picking up someone else's dry-cleaning. Damn I hated that OB/GYN resident.

When I was on OB/GYN, on-call one night I went to the resident's house and walked his dog. I didn't mind, though, because it was in Brooklyn Heights, it was a really nice night, I got out of the hospital, and didn't have to do anything OB-wise while I wasn't there.
 
When I was on OB/GYN, on-call one night I went to the resident's house and walked his dog. I didn't mind, though, because it was in Brooklyn Heights, it was a really nice night, I got out of the hospital, and didn't have to do anything OB-wise while I wasn't there.

It would have been nice if I could have gotten out of my OB/GYN rotation for even 30 minutes.

But no, unfortunately, I had to pick up her dry cleaning the next day, on my way home post-call (at around 4 pm). Grrr. 😡
 
Ok hell no. I'm up for getting food if we're all eating. I'm even up for getting you food. But we have to draw the line somewhere. If I have to leave the hospital to get your dry cleaning or to walk your dog then we would have a problem. I know it didn't really matter to Apollyon but I'd be pissed that the person even thought they had the right to ask. If I volunteer to walk the dog fine but if you're asking me then you're subconsciously telling me how little you respect me and I would have an issue. Big issue
 
Ok hell no. I'm up for getting food if we're all eating. I'm even up for getting you food. But we have to draw the line somewhere. If I have to leave the hospital to get your dry cleaning or to walk your dog then we would have a problem. I know it didn't really matter to Apollyon but I'd be pissed that the person even thought they had the right to ask. If I volunteer to walk the dog fine but if you're asking me then you're subconsciously telling me how little you respect me and I would have an issue. Big issue

Yeah, you're a stronger person than I am.

I got worked by my OB/GYN rotation, and especially got worked by this one resident, who terrorized me every chance she got. 👎
 
Yeah, you're a stronger person than I am.

I got worked by my OB/GYN rotation, and especially got worked by this one resident, who terrorized me every chance she got. 👎

So did she tell you why she was treating you like that or was she just wretched to the world in general i.e. a typical O&G resident. Actually I don't even have to ask, I can guess: she didn't think you were interested enough because you weren't locked in mortal combat with the other students to be the one covered in blood, faeces and baby juice.
 
So did she tell you why she was treating you like that or was she just wretched to the world in general i.e. a typical O&G resident. Actually I don't even have to ask, I can guess: she didn't think you were interested enough because you weren't locked in mortal combat with the other students to be the one covered in blood, faeces and baby juice.

I was actually motivated and busted my butt - I set records for vaginal deliveries (60!) and C-sections (20!) at that hospital for all med students. Never complained, never slept on-call, never slacked off. Didn't matter. She was bitter and angry and took it out on me (among other med students). I don't think it was personal, but man I think she hated me.
 
I was actually motivated and busted my butt - I set records for vaginal deliveries (60!) and C-sections (20!) at that hospital for all med students. Never complained, never slept on-call, never slacked off. Didn't matter. She was bitter and angry and took it out on me (among other med students). I don't think it was personal, but man I think she hated me.

🙁 I'm so, so sorry for you.

I don't think that qualifies as "scut." That's just plain "abuse."
 
Picking up dry cleaning and walking a resident's dog? And I thought I was scutted out when I used to have to make a 100 photocopies for residents.
 
I was actually motivated and busted my butt - I set records for vaginal deliveries (60!) and C-sections (20!) at that hospital for all med students. Never complained, never slept on-call, never slacked off. Didn't matter. She was bitter and angry and took it out on me (among other med students). I don't think it was personal, but man I think she hated me.
I don't know which is worse - your experience or mine on ob/gyn. All the residents were sickly-sweet to my face, then slammed me on my eval for things I didn't even do. Someone had me mistaken for another med student (I must be a very generic-looking person, I'm constantly hearing how I look exactly like so-and-so) and so all that person's transgressions appeared on my evaluation. When I protested that I most certainly had NOT said while on call "Triage is boring, can I go to sleep?", everyone agreed that that didn't sound like something I would say but it never came off the eval.

Didn't have to pick up dry cleaning though, so I think you win. Or lose, however you want to look at it. 🙄
 
🙁 I'm so, so sorry for you.

Thanks. 🙂

Didn't have to pick up dry cleaning though, so I think you win. Or lose, however you want to look at it. 🙄

Yeah, I define normal "scut" as hospital-related tasks - Xeroxing papers, changing dressings, grabbing things from the Omnicell/Pyxis, transporting patients, etc.

But man, these out-of-hospital chores? Brutal.
 
More power to you guys if you enjoy what you do. I've seen your intraop flow sheets. I would straight up kill myself. No wonder you're all addicted to Fentanyl. 😉

Sufentanil. It's the new fentanyl. So I hear.

Blade28's said:
Oh I've been terribly scutted out as a med student. One of the worst times was when I had to go pick up my OB/GYN resident's dry cleaning.

I'd have cheerfully picked it up. Of course, a slightly opened mustard packet might have found its way into a pocket ...
 
I don't know which is worse - your experience or mine on ob/gyn. All the residents were sickly-sweet to my face, then slammed me on my eval for things I didn't even do. Someone had me mistaken for another med student (I must be a very generic-looking person, I'm constantly hearing how I look exactly like so-and-so) and so all that person's transgressions appeared on my evaluation. When I protested that I most certainly had NOT said while on call "Triage is boring, can I go to sleep?", everyone agreed that that didn't sound like something I would say but it never came off the eval.

This happened to me on Peds. They are were all super nice to my face then months later all kinds of crazy lies were on my eval and no one would do a thing. They had quoted me as saying I was doing the rotation at that site because "I heard it was easy." I mean who would be idiot enough to say that to an attending and then they claimed I was often see watching DVDs in the lounge with my husband during work time. That really pissed me off because my husband only came one time when I was on call to bring me lunch and he also tried to fix their DVD player while he was there, but it won't work because the tv's too old to be hooked up to. Again no one would do anything and some of these lies ended up on my Dean's letter.
 
This happened to me on Peds. They are were all super nice to my face then months later all kinds of crazy lies were on my eval and no one would do a thing. They had quoted me as saying I was doing the rotation at that site because "I heard it was easy." I mean who would be idiot enough to say that to an attending and then they claimed I was often see watching DVDs in the lounge with my husband during work time. That really pissed me off because my husband only came one time when I was on call to bring me lunch and he also tried to fix their DVD player while he was there, but it won't work because the tv's too old to be hooked up to. Again no one would do anything and some of these lies ended up on my Dean's letter.

Unfortunately, that kind of crap doesn't stop at medical school. When I was an intern, the Chief didn't care much for me...told the attending I was always complaining about the hours and asking when I could go home. Didn't matter that my co-interns stuck up for me and told him he was crazy, that I never said that (they were subspecialty so didn't really care about their evals), it still was on my eval for the rotation.

8 years later I'm still 😡 (although having the attendings tell me years later that they thought that Chief was a tool did help somewhat)
 
8 years later I'm still 😡 (although having the attendings tell me years later that they thought that Chief was a tool did help somewhat)

Yeah, it's good that usually when someone is being a totally unreasonable tool, you're not usually the only one who noticed.
 
I'm like some of the others in that I don't mind scut. On surgery call I was sent out to pick up Indian food for the team. They actually felt guilty for sending me, but I wanted to go. Nothing like getting some fresh air for an hour when you are on 24 hour call.

I also loved when they sent me to radiology on my medicine sub-i. It was nice to get away for 15 minutes or so.

I wouldn't even mind walking someone's dog if it got me away from the hospital when i was supposed to be working on surg or ob. But I draw the line at the dry cleaning. I hated the majority of the ob-gyn residents at my hospital, there is no way I'd do anything for them. 🙂
 
I think going to get food for the team is okay, as long as you're not paying for all of it. Then again, I don't think any resident would have the nerve to force the student to pay for dinner. I would draw the line at walking the dog, picking up dry cleaning, or cleaning the nurse's station (unless, of course, its your mess).
 
I think going to get food for the team is okay, as long as you're not paying for all of it. Then again, I don't think any resident would have the nerve to force the student to pay for dinner. .

some do have the nerve. i distinctly remember the night i got food for a bunch of surgical residents, some of whom i had never met before, and got shorted a bunch of cash. not cool.
 
If a resident teaches me they can scut me out as much as they want.
 
Scutting my students is good for me. And what's good for me is good for them.


j/k :laugh:

The way I see it, we all work till the work is done. There's nothing about my job that a student can't do with supervision and/or a cosignature. So if the student wants to help out, doesn't have that "what I'm really asking is if I can go home" tone in their voice, and I still have other tasks to do, I'm going to assign them something on my list. If they don't know how, either I'll assign something else, or I'll teach them.

If they ARE really asking to go home, I usually let them go. And depending on how hard they've worked up till that point, I may or may not make a mental note of their laziness (I know it's unfair, but that's how it happens).

However, if I don't like them, and I have a particularly long list, I'll assign them work even if they ARE really asking to go home. If they give any indication of being pissed off at me for asking them to work, when technically they offered, that becomes "attitude" (also unfair, but again, that's the reality).

Oddly enough, if that same student were to come to me and say, "I know the work is not done this evening, but I'd really like to go home and do such-and-such, if that's OK with you," I might actually think more highly of them. As long as it was a legitimate request, I'd probably let them go. But again, if I had a lot to do, I might ask them to do something simple before they left.
 
some do have the nerve. i distinctly remember the night i got food for a bunch of surgical residents, some of whom i had never met before, and got shorted a bunch of cash. not cool.

So not cool. If that had happened to me, I would have made a mental note of it and included it in the comments section of my end-of-rotation evaluation. You know, the one where the students critique their clerkship experience. It sucks that some residents can get away with crap like this.
 
So not cool. If that had happened to me, I would have made a mental note of it and included it in the comments section of my end-of-rotation evaluation. You know, the one where the students critique their clerkship experience. It sucks that some residents can get away with crap like this.

i'm guessing that a clerkship director's interest in what students have to say about residents falls around #99 of the top 100 things they care about. these people have way more important things on their plate, and even if they didn't, i just don't see a lot of them caring. adults should be able to deal with this type of non-school stuff on their own. so the shorted person should say, "hey, i'm short X dollars here - you all need to pay for what you just sent me out for." if no proper compensation occurs, the clerkship director isn't the person to complain to - you'd probably have a better shot of getting an appropriate response from the chief resident or the residency program.

and if not, come on to SDN and bitch about how residents and the PD at program Y do not treat med students with respect. that may not solve the problem, but i certainly would consider it if i heard a residency program i was interested in didn't exhibit professional behavior towards their colleagues.
 
for me, the $20 wasn't worth the trouble.

i'm guessing that a clerkship director's interest in what students have to say about residents falls around #99 of the top 100 things they care about. these people have way more important things on their plate, and even if they didn't, i just don't see a lot of them caring. adults should be able to deal with this type of non-school stuff on their own. so the shorted person should say, "hey, i'm short X dollars here - you all need to pay for what you just sent me out for." if no proper compensation occurs, the clerkship director isn't the person to complain to - you'd probably have a better shot of getting an appropriate response from the chief resident or the residency program.

and if not, come on to SDN and bitch about how residents and the PD at program Y do not treat med students with respect. that may not solve the problem, but i certainly would consider it if i heard a residency program i was interested in didn't exhibit professional behavior towards their colleagues.
 
i'm guessing that a clerkship director's interest in what students have to say about residents falls around #99 of the top 100 things they care about. these people have way more important things on their plate, and even if they didn't, i just don't see a lot of them caring. adults should be able to deal with this type of non-school stuff on their own. so the shorted person should say, "hey, i'm short X dollars here - you all need to pay for what you just sent me out for." if no proper compensation occurs, the clerkship director isn't the person to complain to - you'd probably have a better shot of getting an appropriate response from the chief resident or the residency program.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather complain to the clerkship director than to the residency director. At least the clerkship director should know who you are, and should theoretically care, but you can't always say the same about the PD.

Complaining on your eval is worth a try - you don't know who's reading those things. The surgery dept. at my school is surprisingly good about listening to student feedback - so many med students complained about one circulating tech that she was "talked to" about her behavior to med students. (She was actually noticeably nicer after that, but she ended up just beating up the residents harder, unfortunately. 🙁) And the OB/gyn department rewards residents whom students particularly like with teaching awards...so the evals don't always go unnoticed.
 
So not cool. If that had happened to me, I would have made a mental note of it and included it in the comments section of my end-of-rotation evaluation. You know, the one where the students critique their clerkship experience. It sucks that some residents can get away with crap like this.
Its not residents.

Its people.

There is always some guy who never has enough money or who purposely shortchanges someone.
 
Its not residents.

Its people.

There is always some guy who never has enough money or who purposely shortchanges someone.

exactly, and i allow this to happen to me once. there's a lot of truth to the expression, "fool me once, shame on you, but fool me twice, shame on me".

one thing we haven't talked much about in this thread is how the residency system intrinsically makes "teachers" out of all residents in the core specialties of surg, peds, IM, psych, and ob-gyn. i'm guessing program directors rarely think about whether an applicant will be a good teacher of medical students when they're considering residency applications.
 
That's why you'll find that some residents are better natural "teachers" than others. You have to possess the interest, time and energy to teach your med students - which is easier said than done when you're running ragged and pulled in a million directions simultaneously.
 
Good teachers are the exception around here. I hope I'll be different, but like Blade says it's hard when you're pulled in a million different directions.

I find myself no longer looking for opportunities to be taught by residents (or even avoiding them). I've been on a consult service and I avoid the residents like the plaque (not because I don't like them, just because I prefer to have more independence). Every once in awhile I'll find a resident that teaches well and that I feel comfortable with. But then trying to catch them when they find time...overall I've found trying to learn from residents is very inefficient. Sure do appreciate when someone does make an effort, though.
 
i bet pd's want the best teachers, well rounded, resilient, intelligent, friendly, easy to work with people as residents. however, it's kind of hard to tell all of that from a largely superficial 30 minute interview. all you find out is if that person has basic social skills and can make small talk for half an hour. plus, like blade says, it's really hard work to teach when you're exhausted.

i'm guessing program directors rarely think about whether an applicant will be a good teacher of medical students when they're considering residency applications.
 
An ENT resident made me do her Ear Census patients of 6 months while I was on duty as the ENT intern. She was like, "Oh! We have no patients, get the ER logbook and list down all ear cases from 6 months ago. No rush. I just need it by 7 am" I hated doing it, but felt I had no choice...

A surgery resident made me summarize journal articles for him (1 or 2 would have been okay, but after a while i kinda got the feeling of being used) and explain it to him while he's doing the OR. When the attending asks him to research on something, it gets passed down to me. My favorite was when he was asked to name the study he was quoting and everyone saw him look to me for the answer! Mwahahahahaha:laugh:

An ophtha resident made me research on dog behavior! &*^#*(@^&*&#@@!!!

An ob-gyn made me "fix" her paper for publication...and by fix, it was almost a rewrite. i can't believe she reached medical school let alone residency---not even a thank you thereafter!

My neurology resident left me in the midst of ER duty as a 4th year med student. She literally disappeared from the planet. She wasn't at the callroom, she wasn't answering her pages, not even her cellphone. We had a patient for CT scan who was having focal seizures. ER nurses were after me to locate the resident as he did not have seizure meds on board! Our hospital is so huge, I had to look everywhere. Two hours after, gorgeous resident walks in all refreshed and admonishes me for not informing her about the patient. I told her we were paging her, calling, i even ran to the nearby cafes and she said, "apparently, it was not enough. i was just around" Freak.


I hated the scut, but i never pulled the "that's beyond my duties" line. many times I wished i did though...sure, there's pride in being able to suck up the work, but it also makes me hate myself sometimes for taking the abuse. there are many days when i felt i hid behind the i-dont-have-a-choice line a little too much.
 
Its not residents.

Its people.

There is always some guy who never has enough money or who purposely shortchanges someone.

I was not saying that shortchanging students was a characteristic of residents. Yes, I agree that anyone can shortchange med students, whether it is a resident, attending, nurse, mechanic, barber, fisherman, or whatever. And I would also agree that many residents can be the greatest people you would ever want to know. However, since we were speaking in the context of students being scutted, that is why I said some residents can get away with this stuff. Granted, an attending can scut students as well, and even shortchange them. On some occasions, even a nurse could probably shortchange a student. But the student hangs around with the resident a lot more than the attending or nurse. Do you agree? I should think that if the student gets any scutwork or abuse thrown at him/her, that it is more likely to come from a resident than an attending simply because the student hangs around the resident a lot more. Again, this is not a vilification of residents since, as I said before, the majority of residents are great people and many are great teachers as well. But the person whom the student spends the most time with is the most likely person to scut or abuse a student.
 
I was not saying that shortchanging students was a characteristic of residents. Yes, I agree that anyone can shortchange med students, whether it is a resident, attending, nurse, mechanic, barber, fisherman, or whatever. And I would also agree that many residents can be the greatest people you would ever want to know. However, since we were speaking in the context of students being scutted, that is why I said some residents can get away with this stuff. Granted, an attending can scut students as well, and even shortchange them. On some occasions, even a nurse could probably shortchange a student. But the student hangs around with the resident a lot more than the attending or nurse. Do you agree? I should think that if the student gets any scutwork or abuse thrown at him/her, that it is more likely to come from a resident than an attending simply because the student hangs around the resident a lot more. Again, this is not a vilification of residents since, as I said before, the majority of residents are great people and many are great teachers as well. But the person whom the student spends the most time with is the most likely person to scut or abuse a student.

Yeah, I get that and I knew that you knew that others can certainly shortchange a student.

And I'm not defending the residents at all. Matter of fact I think it deplorable since the residents earn a salary and if anything, should be paying for the student's meal and some gas $$ if they are sending him/her for food. I never let my students pay when we ate on call or grabbing something in the cafeteria between cases.

Anyway, I knew you weren't vilifying residents.
 
Yeah, I get that and I knew that you knew that others can certainly shortchange a student.

And I'm not defending the residents at all. Matter of fact I think it deplorable since the residents earn a salary and if anything, should be paying for the student's meal and some gas $$ if they are sending him/her for food. I never let my students pay when we ate on call or grabbing something in the cafeteria between cases.

Anyway, I knew you weren't vilifying residents.

Thank you. You get my point.
 
Not a fan of interns. Not their fault that they are fresh out of med school, overworked, underpaid, little experience, don't have much more knowledge than a 4th yr med student, the sound of 'Dr.' still ringing fresh in their ears and egos bigger than themselves! Then some twisted system decided that interns should teach med students- talk about the blind leading the blind! I have worked with some great interns and some super obnoxious ones, but none were experienced enough to teach and seemed to want to scut us away all the time. This was just my experience and I am really not blaming interns for wanting to scut students to make their lives easier.
I really believe that as students it is our primary job to learn as we DO have to pass shelfs and Steps - which do not include questions on how to write admission orders or discharge summaries. It is obviously beneficial to learn that too, but shouldn't overshadow the primary objective. As long as your bases are strong you can figure out how to do the paperwork later.
 
hey. . . guess what. . . when you admit someone, through the process of admission orders, you are practicing MEDICINE!!! making diagnoses, treating diseases. that IS what you are here for, buddy, more than taking standardized tests.


Not a fan of interns. . . .
I really believe that as students it is our primary job to learn as we DO have to pass shelfs and Steps - which do not include questions on how to write admission orders or discharge summaries. It is obviously beneficial to learn that too, but shouldn't overshadow the primary objective. As long as your bases are strong you can figure out how to do the paperwork later.
 
Not their fault that they are fresh out of med school, overworked, underpaid, little experience, don't have much more knowledge than a 4th yr med student . . .

:laugh:

Around November of your intern year, I hope you think back on this post and realize how stupid you sound to the rest of us.
 
I have had some great interns who were more than happy to teach and were good teachers. They also have the crappiest scut work to do and obviously will always appreciate having some help doing it, why not pitch in since you will be in their shoes very, very soon?
 
But the person whom the student spends the most time with is the most likely person to scut or abuse a student.

True that, when I first meet a resident/intern they are pretty nice and joke about maybe being nice on the rotation, wanting us to learn etc . . . but I think all residents have a potential to start to order medical students around as they realize they have a lot of power over us. Scary to think that someone who is 1-2 years out of medical school, maybe graduated last in class could give you a bomb eval which may decide where you have to go for residency or even which field (maybe an exaggeration, but not by much). One resident who ordered me around all the time I saw in line in the cafeteria and he wanted something else (food) and told me to go get it for him, i.e. leave the line and go get him something. I don't think so, especially as he is chronically late and was not busy, I just act stupid and point over to where it was. Another resident wanted me to do her case logs i.e. type stuff which had been neglected for months, I did it, but when she asked me to stay late one day and asked me if I wanted to do it again, I just smiled and said no as she gave me a choice so her fault. I used to think doctors would be nicer than normal people or at least average, way wrong there, too many big egos that need people to be their slaves. I think students should be allowed to say it is not our educational responsibilities per the clerkship director as residents are getting paid to run the hospital, but students work, like really work, like you couldn't run the wards or clinics without having to really work. Some brave student should file a lawsuit against an educational institution i.e. medical school where medical students are basically doing a large amount of clerical non-educational duties, (I'm not talking about writing notes, seeing patients, or getting vitals) morally it is a little messed up to abuse workers who are paying for the experience especially when teaching is bad. Eventually some student is going to be pushed to far and will get a lawyer.
 
I was actually motivated and busted my butt - I set records for vaginal deliveries (60!) and C-sections (20!) at that hospital for all med students. Never complained, never slept on-call, never slacked off. Didn't matter. She was bitter and angry and took it out on me (among other med students). I don't think it was personal, but man I think she hated me.

She hated you because you were a better student than she was. She wished she was as good at O&G as you were. I bet she was frumpy too.

Now, concerning scut:

Filling out progress notes, discharge summaries, and writing orders is not scut - being able to write exactly what is happening to a patient, and being able to intervene appropriately are essential skills.

Filling out social work forms and requisitions is scut - no learning value at all in it. Getting coffee is scut(although sometime it is a nice break). Consistent observing of the same thing over and over is scut(your time would be better spent reading).

Now, picking up a resident's dry cleaning and walking a resident's dog? That's beyond scut - that's insulting. It's extortion. It's no better than sexual harrassment! Resident's like this are taking their position of power and abusing it. If a resident who I was not EXTREMELY good friends with asked me to do something like this I'd flatly refuse and I'd send a letter to the dean, not to be opened until after evaluations are out, stating that if my evaluation on the service is below par, it's because I refused to pick up said resident's dry cleaning.
 
She hated you because you were a better student than she was. She wished she was as good at O&G as you were. I bet she was frumpy too.

Now, concerning scut:

Filling out progress notes, discharge summaries, and writing orders is not scut - being able to write exactly what is happening to a patient, and being able to intervene appropriately are essential skills.


Filling out social work forms and requisitions is scut - no learning value at all in it. Getting coffee is scut(although sometime it is a nice break). Consistent observing of the same thing over and over is scut(your time would be better spent reading).

Now, picking up a resident's dry cleaning and walking a resident's dog? That's beyond scut - that's insulting. It's extortion. It's no better than sexual harrassment! Resident's like this are taking their position of power and abusing it. If a resident who I was not EXTREMELY good friends with asked me to do something like this I'd flatly refuse and I'd send a letter to the dean, not to be opened until after evaluations are out, stating that if my evaluation on the service is below par, it's because I refused to pick up said resident's dry cleaning.

Once I was asked to write a discharge summary on a patient I had meet for the first time 8 hours ago (new students rotating on to a ward), and the resident had been following the patient for two weeks. That is more like a chart review where you have to go through the chart of a paitent you don't know . . . it is best to start working on the discharge summary early, it takes forever to try to find when lines were placed and D/C'd . . . I think students should focus on the patients they have seen from the get go as much as reasonably possible. . .

Once had an intern on surgery who wasn't even a surgical intern but doing a prelim or something, I didn't now this but he made all the students sit around him as he talked about what he thought he knew about surgery and made jokes and we all felt we needed to laugh or something and I wanted to go do work because this guy was wasting our times and didn't know much more than us. It is ridiculous how once interns and second year residents get the M.D. after their name they assume that they can basically order us to do many non-patient care related activities, most don't even bother to teach.
 
I'm not too sure about discharge summaries not being scut. The forms have differed a lot at the hospital I'm at depending on the service. I had to do a discharge summary for my clerkship grade and it was essentially a complete H&P plus progress in the hospital plus discharge meds. The ones I do at the hospital are much, much shorter. I suppose that it just varies depending on where you're at?
 
I'm not too sure about discharge summaries not being scut. The forms have differed a lot at the hospital I'm at depending on the service. I had to do a discharge summary for my clerkship grade and it was essentially a complete H&P plus progress in the hospital plus discharge meds. The ones I do at the hospital are much, much shorter. I suppose that it just varies depending on where you're at?

Well, for a two week hospital admission, with multiple procedures and imaging results and blood tranfusions, and dietary changes, and FFP, and about a dozen different lab test done, this was more like a 12 page document. A discharge summary at my institutions (how a good discharge summary should be done) is a narrative of the hospital course, and can be complicated, i.e. paracentesis, emobolization of a hepatic artery, etc . . . a H and P and discharge meds means nothing in terms of time as this can be easily pasted from the H and P. Try to piece this together in 4 hours if you haven't seen the patient and you will literally have to stay overnight to complete this. "On hospital day #7 the patient was transfused two units of PRBC why? his hematocrit looked ok, I need to go ask resident, . . . the patient had procedure x done, why? on and on and on, I agree if you have seen the patient this is fair game, but a different ballgame if you haven't seen the patient (which i seem to have to repeat myself as you haven't read/noticed this in my previous post), and if you can't read medicine's notes, . . . Please read my post again as I didn't say discharge summaries are not scut, . . . it all depends on the situation. For good hospitals you have to go chronologically by day and basically write a small chapter, at other hospitals I have seen they don't really care about dischrage summaries. Imagine Ypo if I said I wanted you to write a discharge summary by the end of the day for a patient who had a liver transplant, cellulitis, and pneumoniae and I wanted listed everything, i.e. blood cultures, medications used, ALL tests results, all consults done integrated chronologically (say 8 consults!), . . . it will take you a long while my friend, and is frustrating as you haven't seen the patient during rounds for the past three weeks, and I want each day done chronologically, and you can't read my progress notes, GOOD LUCK!!

For example:

On hospital day #7 the patients Hematocrit was 18 and hemoglobin was 6, and order was place to begin transfusion of 4 units PRBcs. Midway into the first unit the patient began to have chest pain, lasting for 4 minutes which was associated with diaphoresis and was of a different character of the chest pain that the patient presented with so STAT EKG was performed and serial cardiac enzymes were sent at 11:00 am. The troponin, CKMB, etc . . . results were received and came back at x, x, x, and were negative for MI. Cardiology was placed on this day and completed by 4 pm, and the cardiology fellow advised that a stress test be performed for our patient. We decided to delay the stress test until after the third blood transfusion was completed, at this time during the admission 6 units of PRBCs had been transfused over 7 days, without a source of bleeding so surgery was consulted on this day for ongoing bleeding without obvious source and continuing abdominal pain. . . .

This would be easy to write if you were there on rounds, but IMAGINE doing this for a patient you don't know!
 
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