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Is Surgery the most useless rotation in MS3 year?

Discussion in 'Clinical Rotations' started by grindtime1, Dec 29, 2017.

  1. grindtime1

    grindtime1 7+ Year Member

    Apr 22, 2009
    Just finished up my Surgery rotation and wow hahahaha was it the most worthless, meaningless and least enjoyable experience of medical school.

    Medical students' role on this rotation consist of:

    1) Cutting sutures with a pair of scissors like a kindergartner

    2) Retracting skin for multiple hour long procedures....what fun!!!

    3) Getting yelled at by di**head attendings, scrub techs (lmao) and nurses for "contaminating the sterile field" if you blink the wrong way. Seriously....scrub techs?? Don't these people make like minimum wage? Why do they think they're some sort of badass authority figure in the OR environment?

    4) Watching a TV monitor for hours if you're not the student scrubbed in, again, for multiple hour long boring ass procedures.

    5) Rinse and repeat the above and you essentially have the daily experience of an MS3 on the Surgery clerkship.

    Combine that with the getting up at 4 am, weekend calls, 12-16 hour long daily shifts, having zero time to study and just being in an environment with loud, obnoxious, annoying people who talk too much and therefore make it impossible to ever get any reading done and I'm genuinely baffled as to how anyone likes this loser specialty.

    These people have no lives either. Their entire life is the OR. Pathetic lmao!!!

    I tried to feign interest as much as I could during the first week or two but just couldn't do it anymore. The final two weeks I basically just ignored the attendings and gave off the impression that I didn't give a sh** about anything they were doing, and that I wasn't interested taking an "optional overnight call" with them to watch some lame, boring procedure I've seen 50 times already. Even skipped a few days calling in sick.

    Anyone else feel this rotation is useless? Very little, if anything, is actually learned on this rotation that is relevant to anything you'll be doing in your career. So glad it's over.
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  3. Trollest


    May 5, 2017
    Well not the best atittude to have OP. And what are you interested in then? I mean your points may or may not be valid but you still have to handle it professionally which i think you are doing very poorly at.
  4. FenderBenderEmergency

    FenderBenderEmergency Sometimes, it's not quite an emergency. 2+ Year Member

    Mar 12, 2015
    It sounds like you had a pretty experience, a sincere sorry that it turned out that way for you. Did you have an interest in surgery before going on the rotation? During my 4 week observership I totally loved it. Granted it was with plastics, but being on observership I didn't get to do anything other than observe and ask questions. My hours were about the same as yours though. Were you at a big academic hospital or were you at a smaller community program? I had a great time with the nurses and techs since they're incredibly knowledgeable in their own right and learned a ton from my attending so I didn't think it was awful at all.
  5. grindtime1

    grindtime1 7+ Year Member

    Apr 22, 2009
    Don't forget....holding a camera still for 2+ hours without having any clue what the surgeon is actually cutting or trying to accomplish.

    All while not getting paid 1 cent for the 65-100+ hours per week you put into this rotation.

    And do not forget the insufferable auditioning ass-kissing M4s whose job it is to scrub in on every rotation to get as much "facetime" with as many attendings/residents as possible and give you unwanted advice when you never asked for it. :laugh:
  6. grindtime1

    grindtime1 7+ Year Member

    Apr 22, 2009
    Was at an academic hospital too btw....
  7. Anti-PD1


    Dec 29, 2016
    I didn't like my general surgery rotation very much, but it didn't deter me from surgery.

    The MS3 experience has its highs and lows. If you have an interest in something, try it out as an MS4.
  8. Oso

    Oso 2+ Year Member

    Jan 17, 2014
    For the record, I HATED surgery. I felt miserable, hated going in every day, was not a fan of the people I worked with, and KNEW I was not going to do anything surgical with my life. I also did not love procedures and would have been happy doing no procedures. I'm also just not a very optimistic person and did not 'love' 3rd year like a lot of my friends did.

    However, here are a few thoughts I had while reading your post:

    Yeah, but if you show interest in this type of thing, then they will let you actually suture (first superficially, then deeper like fascia).

    Agree, this sucks, but again if you show interest and don't just space out while retracting then they will let you do some stuff (I got to use some weird staplers I still don't understand during some crazy anastamoses after retracting for hours).

    Yes. Sterile stuff felt like voodoo to me at times (ex. when you're scrubbing, start by washing your actual hands first so the water drips down away from your hands and not from your arms down to your hands..or something like that? I still don't know.)

    I also did not enjoy laparoscopic cases. But I tried hard when asked to 'drive' the camera. I got rewarded by having an attending sit down and teach me how to use a DaVinci robot which was pretty cool to use, I must admit.

    I was never crazy about suturing and tying knots, but I tried my best when given the opportunity. Then when I did our required EM clerkship (adult) and a peds EM elective, people saw I didn't suck and was a good trooper so I got to repair a bunch of cool lacerations (including some on kids' hands and faces, which was kinda crazy to me). I'll rotate again through the ED during my peds residency, so this is not truly a 'useless' skill to me.

    Also, knowing how to act in an OR and not sucking at suturing/knots allowed me to be more involved during my OB clerkship, so again I got to do some cool stuff, especially during scheduled C-sections and some gyn procedures. Am I going to do this kinda stuff again? No. However, having a good attitude even though I HATE the OR resulted in me getting a LOR from an ob/gyn attending (one interview brought up this letter in particular as a strong letter .. so turns out this did help me).

    Look, I hated surgery overall and was not happy, but this is a pretty sh!tty attitude to have. You need to find a better way to handle rotations you don't enjoy, because I'm almost positive that we will all have rotations we don't particularly like (and sometimes hate) even within the residency we choose.

    Edit: I do realize that I have a better view of the clerkship now that a year and a half has passed. I'm not trying to prevent you from venting, and I definitely complained about those same things to some of my friends. I do stick by the attitude thing though.
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2017
  9. operaman

    operaman Physician 7+ Year Member

    Jun 7, 2010
    So many things to say to this. OP is clearly beyond help but I’m trying to decide if it’s worth it to craft a response for other students who may wander through here.

    Dangit here goes. I’ll direct this more to other students because OP clearly had a bad experience and nothing I say will change his or her perception of that. Hopefully he will find another field more suited to his interests and be happy there.

    1) read for the d—n cases! Yes surgery is ridiculously boring if you have no idea what’s going on. This is why you read for your cases. There are dozens of textbooks, hundreds of articles and thousands of YouTube videos on this. Find a resident you like and ask them to show you how they prepare for a case. I always try to do this for new clinical students. I go through the history, the imaging, the indication for surgery. I pull up a YouTube video and walk them through the steps of the case, and I make a brief list of things for them to study and high yield pimping questions to be ready for. I think it’s a very reasonable question for a new clinical student to ask at the start of their rotation.

    2) cutting suture is harder than it looks. So many factors influence proper length and these are valuable things to learn because it goes into basic principles of soft tissue work that many non surgeons end up needing to know.

    3) I’m still learning how to retract well. If you know what’s going on it’s less boring because you understand your active role in the case. If you’re lost, you feel like s piece of equipment just standing there.

    4) anyone who doesn’t get yelled at in the OR should automatically fail the rotation because they clearly didn’t ever go to the OR. I still get “yelled” at by scrub techs and good ones are worth their weight in gold. Usually they’re keeping me from screwing something up and delaying the case by an hour when they have to redo their entire set up. Some attendings are more ocd about sterility than others. Some will make you re scrub for having a dirty thought. Much depends on what sort of surgery they are doing. I do recognize that many people have cited bad OR experiences as steering them away from surgery so I always make a point to do whatever I can to mitigate this stuff. I’ll try to anticipate problems, introduce them to OR staff, tell them “welcome to the club” when they do get yelled at, prep them for pimp questions with attendings who are known for it.

    5) yes the hours are long and days start early. All the work that medicine teams do between 7am and lunch is work we do before 7am when the OR starts. The payoff is you don’t spend your whole day rounding. As a student, I spent more time with patients on surgery than on internal medicine or most every other rotations.

    6) it’s important to show interest so people will let you do things. The reality is many students have no interest and don’t really want to do anything and last thing I want to do is make some poor soul stay later or stumble through some procedure they don’t want to do. For students who show interest I will bend over backward to get them involved, teach them to use some of our toys. I’ve thought about this a lot and I don’t feel it’s my responsibility to create interest where none exists; rather, my job is to teach and nurture interest and curiosity that is already there. OP’s attitude is not one that would compel me to go the extra mile; I’d probably feel sorry for him and try to get him out the door as early as possible.

    Note sure what I can say about not getting paid. That’s not unique to surgery rotations. You do get a lot of hours of potential learning time with minimal actual duties and the ability to pick and chose all the best cases with the best attendings.

    All rotations are what you make them. There is some variance between services and staff and residents and not every experience will be great, but there are valuable things to learn from each. The hospital is full of people who didn’t pay attention in medical school and it’s painfully obvious. You’re paying to be there, so get your moneys worth.
  10. AsianPersuasion

    AsianPersuasion 7+ Year Member

    Jan 19, 2011
    As an M3, I'm pretty sure you're not expected to have many major role in the operation theater. But if I'm not mistaken, even if your specialty rarely have to deal with pre op, intra-op patient etc, a lot of the time, depending on where and what specialty you're practicing, you need to know how to take care of these patients post-op. Not just immediately but possibly long term., UNDERSTAND why they had that procedure and understand what to look for when they walk into your office.

    I have no desire to do surgery. I want FM. But as an FP, I need to know how to take care of these people when they walk into my office because guess what? If you ever read any of those discharge instructions, what does it say?...Seek follow-up with your surgeon if there's complication or your PCP. I'm pretty sure the point is to have an understanding of the pathology and whether or not it can or can't be fixed via surgery.
  11. DrMcLovin


    Oct 12, 2016
    You must attend an osteopathic medical school. Moving forward you should try and get more rotations in an MD academic center where you can get more meaningful experiences.
  12. Mad Jack

    Mad Jack Critically Caring Gold Donor Classifieds Approved 2+ Year Member

    Jul 27, 2013
    4th Dimension
    You clearly weren' doing what you needed to learn, my god. Surgery is an important rotation because it allows you to appreciate different surgical presentations, understand various surgical procedures, see surgical complications, comprehend post-op management principles, etc etc. If you go into medicine, you're going to be referring patients for surgery or calling for consults, and you need to be able to explain what is going to go on in the OR to some degree to put some patients at ease, and will also need to know when to make those referrals to begin with. Dare I say that surgery is one of the highest yield rotations of medical school because for many it is their sole GS experience from which to base these decisions and consults for the rest of their lives. Learn what you can while you can (something OP clearly did not do) because it'll help you for the rest of your career in a great number of specialties.
  13. grindtime1

    grindtime1 7+ Year Member

    Apr 22, 2009
    Um....the chief attendings here were MDs and this was an MD academic center, though I've stated on multiple occasions in the past that I kind of wished I went to a DO school instead because with the exception of my family members most of the MD students/physicians at my school were quite physically unattractive and not very good-looking as I am myself. As a beautiful person, I prefer to be surrounded by beauty as well, something I did not find in the vast majority of MD settings.
    Moose A Moose likes this.
  14. Kkshake


    Sep 21, 2016
    This comment was just rude and baseless.
  15. VisionaryTics

    VisionaryTics Señor Member 7+ Year Member

    Jan 13, 2009
    As an MD PGY4 in a surgical subspecialty, this is also my greatest regret.
  16. QueenJames

    QueenJames 2+ Year Member

    May 16, 2013
    If you walk into any rotation with this type of attitude... I'm sorry to say but you'll probably be a very crappy physician one day.
    All of this stuff does affect your thought process whether we know it or not.
    If you are paying a ridiculous amount of money for all of this... why not make the most of it.

    Unless you are doing something outside the realm of real hospital-based medicine like outpatient psych or something... maybe you can check out... but then again... I'm sure knowledge is something that never HURTs to have.

    I'd rather be able to give a patient a carefully thought out answer that may not be detailed and THEN refer to the surgeon... than have NO answer at all and say "just wait for the surgeon to get here".

    Just don't give those of us who actually do care crap about wanting to learn or calling us "gunners" and all.

    Misery loves company and I'm not trying to be a mediocre physician.

    That's just me. Do you.
  17. grindtime1

    grindtime1 7+ Year Member

    Apr 22, 2009
    It's just incredibly boring though and your role is not important at all. They don't "need" the MS3 on the surgery rotation (or any rotation at all for that matter) but you're still kept there against your will all day almost every day.

    And there's no structure or routine. Your schedule is completely random and dependent on what pops up that day or what the resident's mood is.

    When to eat lunch? Whenever the resident tells you to...could be 11 am or 3 pm. How long to eat? As little as 5 min or if you're lucky maybe you get a half hour. When can we leave? Could be 5:30-6 pm, unless a new consult comes into the ER last second and it's determined the obese woman who eats too much needs her gallbladder or appendix removed or whatever, surgery scheduled for tonight.......tack on another 3-4 hours to my day, for which I get paid ZERO.

    Seriously, good riddance to Surgery. So glad I only have to put up with these clowns for a month unlike those of you who actually want to do this......a half decade worth of this misery for you. :p

    Remember, the attrition rate for surgery residents is like 25% or something. Basically 1 out of 4 people who've already been accepted into and have completed a significant portion of their training as a doctor (aka residency, not meaningless string-cutting and chart-fetching scut monkey work better known as MS3) don't even go through the whole thing cus they're so sick of it.
  18. arcus


    Nov 30, 2017
    If OP had bothered to visit any of the autoclaves in the OR, the MRSA causing their obvious case of the ugly personality presentation, would have been resolved on day 1.

    Hopefully others will have a far better disposition

    Core Objectives of the Basic Surgical Clerkship at one MD school.

    • Demonstrate knowledge and understanding of common surgical problems
    • Understand the indications for, and the limitations of, essential diagnostic studies used to evaluate patients with surgical problems
    • Demonstrate an understanding of surgical treatments, and alternatives to surgical treatment
    • To become familiar with various surgical procedures and know their expected outcomes and complications
    • Develop cost/risk/benefit appreciation as it applies to patient care
    • Be familiar with action, dosage and use of common pharmacologic agents used in surgery (analgesics, antibiotics, anticoagulants, sedatives)
    • Evaluate and assess patients with surgical diseases
    • Understand and possibly perform various basic procedures, such as:
      • venipuncture
      • placement of intravenous catheter
      • insertion of urethral (Foley) catheter
      • insertion of nasogastric tube
      • removal of surgical drains
      • closure of surgical incisions
      • removal of suture/staples
      • dressing changes
    • Apply specific protocol in the operating room (scrubbing, gowning, gloving, prepping and draping)
    • Develop specific motor skills utilized in surgery
    • Interpret common laboratory tests (CBC, electrolytes, blood gases, urinalysis, coags)
    • Interpret common radiologic tests (CXR, KUB, UGI, BE, bone, nuclear tests, US, CT)
    • Perform and interpret EKG
    • Acquire a caring and sympathetic attitude appropriate for dealing with patients with surgical illnesses
    • Acquire an appreciation for the collegial interaction necessary to work on the surgical service, in the OR, etc.
    • Realize the scope of responsibility you assume as the surgeon and to that of the family and referring physicians
    • Demonstrate an openness to recognize limitations by using resources referrals and consultation with supervising preceptors or others when appropriate
    • Demonstrate an openness to receive constructive criticism
    • Perform duties within a professional comportment encompassing such areas as attendance, dress code, and general demeanor
    • Respect patient privacy information
    Learning Objectives
    For each presenting symptom, condition, or disease state, the student should be expected to know:

    • Anatomy
    • Pathophysiology
    • Common associated symptoms
    • Positive physical findings
    • Differential diagnosis
    • Treatment
      • medical/surgical alternatives
      • when treated medically, indications for surgical intervention
      • risk factor assessment
      • pre- and post-operative management
      • complications: recognition and treatment
    • Adjuvant therapies – indications and outcome
    • Prognosis
    • Discharge: timing, patient education, follow-up, resumption of activities
  19. Guys come on, OP is clearly trolling with the “beauty” comments.

    But there is a lesson to be learned in the post regardless. Just because you’re in medical school, it doesn’t make you better than the “minimum wage” scrub techs. Those people can make or break a case, and they probably know more surgery than you ever will. A good scrub tech can take a new resident through a case by handing them the appropriate things at the right time. They will have your back when you’re in the driver’s seat. So don’t underestimate or patronize them. You’re not better than them. I’d take them any day over a pretentious, obnoxious MD-to-be.

    Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
  20. grindtime1

    grindtime1 7+ Year Member

    Apr 22, 2009
    Not trolling at's basically the truth whether you like it or not, with of course a few exceptions like I mentioned....but for the most part it's true.

    Scrub techs did not actually go to medical school and take Bacteriology/Virology/Parasitology, Anatomy, Physiology, Pharmacology, etc and all the Pathology classes of M2 year so it's highly doubtful they know anything about surgery. From my experience their only role is to hand instruments to the surgeon and endlessly remind students to keep their "hands up" during the procedure.

    You basically need to memorize the names of the instruments so you know what the surgeon is asking for when he calls on you. Pretty easy ass job if you ask me.
  21. Lawper

    Lawper under the sea Rocket Scientist 2+ Year Member

    Jun 17, 2014
    New World
    Somehow I'm noticing that the reason why students do poorly in rotations (not just in surgery) is simply because they have attitude problems. Repeatedly the residents and attendings on here have said the worst students are those who are so selfish, arrogant and condescending... and also those who refuse to do "scut work" because that's not what they are here for and spending their tuition.

    In contrast, the students who do really well in clerkships and even honor MS3 are actually humble/friendly, treat everyone with respect and are willing to go above and beyond to exceed the expectations of their medical team by making the most use of the rotations, even if they are a field they don't intend on pursuing.

    Basically, it seems good attitude, humility and sincere dedication go a long way to making clinical years worthwhile and thus receive good evaluations from attendings and residents, something which residency program directors care a lot.
  22. grindtime1

    grindtime1 7+ Year Member

    Apr 22, 2009
    I didn't honor the rotation, but I had no desire/intention to do so anyway since I have less than zero interest in Surgery or anything remotely related to it. I was actually pleasantly surprised by my evaluation which ended up being "high pass".... which was far more than I was expecting or thought I deserved.
  23. Trollest


    May 5, 2017
    You can thank the halo effect for that my friend.
  24. A good scrub knows the steps of the surgery, anticipates what you will ask for, and hands it to you before/just when you ask for it.

    Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
    ortnakas and Winged Scapula like this.
  25. Oso

    Oso 2+ Year Member

    Jan 17, 2014
    Huh? How does them not having taken bacteriology, virology, and, especially, parasitology, lead to the conclusion that they do not know anything about surgery? It's literally their job to know stuff about the surgery/working in the OR.

    Also, why are you ****ting on scrub techs? I don't get what the point of that is.

    I feel like if you continue to have a bad attitude, especially if you're talking badly about other specialties, then no one will want to work with you.
    GreekMD99 likes this.
  26. CherryRedDracul

    CherryRedDracul Resident Sh!tposter Physician 5+ Year Member

    Oct 12, 2012
    North America
    The fact that OP did not realize that only goes to show how little effort he put into his rotation.
  27. TypeADissection


    Jan 23, 2016
    Please stop giving the mouse a cookie. And let said mouse continue on current pathway to superstardom and chairmanship one day soon. Cheers.
  28. mcworbust

    mcworbust 5+ Year Member

    Jan 31, 2011
    Nerd room purgatory
    God I hope you're a troll. Your role is what you make it and how prepared you are. If you approach the rotation the way you did, why would anyone trust you enough to do anything! My surgery rotation was the opposite of yours. Also, I'm always the classmate that will bend over backward for my fellow student and even throw myself under the bus if needed, but if I rotated with you on surgery with this bull**** attitude, all I would want to do is crush you to the point of making you quit med school. Get out now, or at least never treat any of my family members. You are all that is wrong with the future of medicine.

    ...and I'm not even going into a surgical specialty, far from it.
  29. grindtime1

    grindtime1 7+ Year Member

    Apr 22, 2009
    Yeah well it's too bad for you that I ain't going nowhere..... I'm staying and doing it for the rest of my career, so quit your crying and wipe those tears off with some Kleenex. Just so thankful it will be in a field other than Surgery though.

    Btw no offense to all you aspiring or current surgeons out there. I understand it may have been quite offensive to read this thread and my absolute trashing of one particular specialty, but I just felt like giving it the criticism is deserves.

    Truth is....Surgery is simply is a boring specialty, especially from the standpoint of a medical student. Cutting stuff with scissors, holding back skin, holding cameras and standing around doing nothing important for 16 hours a day gets kind of dull after awhile.
  30. Moose A Moose

    Moose A Moose 7+ Year Member

    Nov 24, 2009
    Philadelphia, PA

    Thank you, OP
    10/10 thread, would read again

  31. Winged Scapula

    Winged Scapula Cougariffic! Staff Member Chief Administrator Administrator Physician Faculty Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 15+ Year Member

    Apr 9, 2000
    hSDN Member
    You knew what else is boring as a 3rd year?

    Standing around, rounding for 10 hrs a day, talking about increasingly obscure differential diagnoses.

    Telling your diabetic, obese, smoking patient, once again, take their meds, lose weight, and stop smoking. Wash rinse and repeat.

    Listening to a teenager with an eating disorder describe herself as “fat“ for dealing with the emotional manipulation of a borderline personality disorder.

    I challenge you to find a specialty during third year in which you are actually more of a help then a hindrance. This is not the sole purveyance of surgery. And finally, where did you get the idea that you were going to be paid for medical school? I’m not sure what your frequent comments about standing around and not getting paid or anything but trolling.
  32. grindtime1

    grindtime1 7+ Year Member

    Apr 22, 2009
    Those are important and you actually learn, and see the Pathology and Pharmacology of M2 year put to good use. I learned a lot when hearing about the drugs we should prescribe those fat diabetics or when the doctors criticized the ones who were non-compliant. I had a "oh yea, I learned all about that during Pharmacology, and now I see it being put to use in a way that actually matters" moment.

    In psychiatry all the diagnoses in DSM-IV and all the drugs were on full display, every single day of that rotation. Although I myself as an MS3 have quite a meaningless role during these rotations and no impact whatsoever on the outcome of anything, I am gaining valuable knowledge and seeing what the residents are doing and what their diagnosis and plan is is very important, as it's essentially the same thing I'll be doing a little over a year from now.

    However, nothing is gained from holding a camera, watching a TV monitor, peeling back skin, answering the resident's personal phone calls, etc on a surgery rotation. This is the ONE rotation where your time is completely wasted on silliness.
  33. Winged Scapula

    Winged Scapula Cougariffic! Staff Member Chief Administrator Administrator Physician Faculty Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 15+ Year Member

    Apr 9, 2000
    hSDN Member
    Could it be that perhaps YOU had a bad rotation than rather all of surgery, surgeons and surgical rotations suck?

    For example, I hated my FM rotation. Not because I hated FM (I thought that was going to be my specialty) but because the rotation and the attending sucked. But it didn't make me think that all of FM sucked.

    What about the rest of your rotation? Surely you didn't spend the whole time in the OR driving the camera. What about rounds? You didn't use your Pharmacology on SICU rounds when discussing management of sepsis? Your GI physiology is assessing post op GI function?

    Finally, did you realize that you "25% attrition rate" you quote is not only inaccurate but is higher in Psychiatry and Ob-Gyn?

    I'm sorry you had a bad experience and you are welcome to vent, but what might be more useful is to go to your admin and discuss the lack of teaching on the service and how it can be changed for future students.
    OrthoTraumaMD likes this.
  34. smq123

    smq123 John William Waterhouse Administrator Physician SDN Advisor 10+ Year Member

    Jan 9, 2006

    For reference, I am NOT a surgeon. I'm a family medicine doctor.

    Surgery was a tremendously useful rotation. It helped teach me how to suture and do small bedside procedures - which I still do in the office.

    I learned how to evaluate a wound to see if it was healing well. Also extremely useful in the outpatient setting.

    I learned how to evaluate an acute abdomen, which is a common "same day sick" complaint. I also learned how to evaluate a patient for an ileus and learned how to treat diverticulitis.

    A lot of patients will often ask me, their primary care doctor, what a surgery entails, what the after effects are, etc. So it helps to have actually SEEN these surgeries when discussing them with a patient. Sure, you could shrug your shoulders and say, "I have no idea, I've never seen a cholecystectomy/appendectomy/Whipple/breast biopsy," but patients appreciate it when you give them some idea of what is going to happen.

    Most importantly, I liked the surgery thought process. You identify a problem (sometimes with limited information), and go straight to a plan/solution. That kind of quick, decisive approach is important in the outpatient office, where you sometimes have only 10-15 minutes to evaluate a patient, make a diagnosis, and come up with a plan.

    Every rotation has the potential to teach you something; you just have to be open to learning it.
  35. QueenJames

    QueenJames 2+ Year Member

    May 16, 2013
    No offense OP but...

    Maybe you just sound like an entitled doucher that thinks everything will come to you when in reality... you make your own opportunities in medicine and medical school.

    You can learn anything in any situation and in every rotation... it just depends how hungry and curious you are.


    mcworbust likes this.
  36. Psai

    Psai Account on Hold Physician 2+ Year Member

    Jan 2, 2014
    Having an idea of what the surgery entails helps me a lot on the other side of the curtain. Also I'm a lot more forgiving of their bad attitudes because I've done their schedule with them and have an idea how crappy it is. You've done it for what, 3 months? They're doing it for 5 years. I don't like some of the surgeons but I respect all of them.
    Winged Scapula and GreekMD99 like this.
  37. GreekMD99


    May 5, 2017
    This statement tells all of us exactly what type of medical student you are, and exactly what type of resident you’ll be (fingers crossed on that residency thing)..

    The only thing wasted in your rotation was the space you took up, that could have otherwise gone to an appreciative, professional student doctor.. who could have benefitted from the rotation and used it to help mold themselves into a well rounded physician.

    If you took the nbme shelf exam for surgery you’ll notice that it’s mostly medicine. You’re not there to learn to do the surgeries guy- you’re there to learn about managing patients.

    Pre and post op management of patients, suturing, examining a surgical patient and etc are not surgeon skills, they’re f**king doctor skills. Don’t worry though- when you have zero clue when something is a surgical emergency, or when you have zero clue what a “surgical abdomen” feels like, one of us will likely be there to bail u out before you murder someone.

    The lack of respect you show to the field in your post is appalling to say the least. Until you’ve taken a 24h call as a junior resident, had to manage 30 sick af SICU patients, had the stress of studying for in-service/boards/required certification exams WHILE working an 80+ hr work week, had to be away from most/all your family and friends at holidays/important times, and most importantly....had the stress of holding someone’s life literally in your hands while trying to make intra-operative decisions as an attending or chief resident, you have abso-f**king-lutely no place to comment on their personalities, their moods, or their attitudes toward you...ESPECIALLY if you act like a disinterested Douche bag who excels in being a useless warm body. If you were on my service I’d kindly ask you to go play in traffic.

    Lastly, medical school is a PROFESSIONAL program. It’s ADULT EDUCATION. You’re clearly far from either of those two descriptors. Even worse than the disrespect of your future colleagues is the despicable way you talk about ancillary staff.. I hope you intern (if you intern) at a hospital full of PA’s and NP’s.. and I hope those PA’s and NP’s give you the same respect you gave the scrub techs above.

    You know, I’m actually saddened more than anything here... saddened that people with your mentality have somehow made it into a profession (or at least made it this far) that should embrace learning as much as possible about caring for our patients from the perspectives of multiple specialties (as our training was designed to do)..... instead, all l foresee in you (should you make it to post-graduate training) is a future of mindless “consult Surgery for abdominal pain” orders.

    But like I already said...don’t worry, we’ll show up and help you out

    Best of luck in your future endeavors.

    Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
  38. Psai

    Psai Account on Hold Physician 2+ Year Member

    Jan 2, 2014
  39. Lawper

    Lawper under the sea Rocket Scientist 2+ Year Member

    Jun 17, 2014
    New World
    Honestly speaking, posts like these actually make surgery an interesting and worthwhile profession for students to seriously consider, and even though I didn’t start clinicals yet, reading the responses here made me reassured that every rotation has something valuable to teach, and surgery rotation itself is especially important. And like I said before, while dealing with bad attendings and residents can sadly occur in third year, much of the problems are due to students being apathetic, condescending and malignant.

    I’m sure if students are proactive, sincere, humble, hardworking and pleasant to work with, third year experience will be worthwhile and meaningful, and as such, good grades and good evaluations will follow.
    GreekMD99 and Winged Scapula like this.
  40. evilbooyaa

    evilbooyaa Staff Member Moderator 5+ Year Member

    Oct 10, 2011
    Immediately knew this was a troll post based on what's quoted above.

    You guys are too gullible man
  41. Menander's Bust

    Menander's Bust

    Jul 19, 2017
    Op is VERY VERY VERY VERY obviously trolling.
  42. Giovanotto

    Giovanotto 2+ Year Member

    Jul 20, 2014
    I honestly think its difficult to be paying ~50,000 USD in tuition to be doing scut work. I know we shouldn't look at it like that, but I can't help feeling like I'm going to be that MS3 that's not happy with a LOT of rotations.
  43. cj_cregg

    cj_cregg 2+ Year Member

    Jul 25, 2014
    At least at my school and in my opinion, the scut work isn't that bad because it's actually stuff that needs to be done to help take care of the patient. Getting records from other hospitals/out-of-system doctors, trying to get ahold of relatives, checking in with the RN/NA to see how the patient has been, getting a more thorough history from a chatty patient than the residents have time for, etc. Yeah it's tedious but it's stuff that helps the team and helps the patient. Of course it all depends on your team how useful you can be and granted I haven't had surgery yet, but for the most part IMO it's 100x better than studying for M1/M2 stuff.
    Giovanotto likes this.
  44. Winged Scapula

    Winged Scapula Cougariffic! Staff Member Chief Administrator Administrator Physician Faculty Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 15+ Year Member

    Apr 9, 2000
    hSDN Member
    As an attending in PP, I do all that stuff so it’s certainly part of the job.
    ortnakas, mcworbust and cj_cregg like this.
  45. Roxas

    Roxas Giggity! Bronze Donor Classifieds Approved 5+ Year Member

    Jul 5, 2012
    Twilight Town
    I'm with the op in that it sucks, but it's exactly what I expected and I respect the hell out of those that could do this for the rest of their lives
    ortnakas likes this.
  46. VincentAdultman

    VincentAdultman Senior Member Physician Gold Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

    Jun 18, 2005
    New York
    Postin’ in a troll thread
    MedicalSport likes this.

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