Is the "80 hour work week" for medical residents really true or just a rumor?

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And, during residency, depending on speciality, is not all sleep and work. Although I sleep a tiny 5-6 hours(by choice), I have work from the earliest 7 to 5(even on inpatient rotations if you get all your work done fast, it's manageable). Then, an hour of reading still leaves time for dinner and hobbies and chatting with friends/family back home. Also, almost every weekend off. Yes, calls suck, but like a kidney stone it'll pass and you'll be thankful, and praise your higher being of choice when it's a quiet night with nothing going on :)

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Outsiders had no position to question Hitler's policies.

Godwin'ed. /End thread.
Based on gettheleadout's analogy, are we all Southern racists who support to keep the system as is, while Mr. Happy and gettheleadout are the good Northerners who want to "reform" the system?
 
Do you actually think that the "asking of questions and consideration of possible virtues and problems" that you have come up with haven't been considered and thought of by others way ahead of you and with much more qualifications and experience to remark on GME?

You're really going to make an analogy between resident work hours and racial segregation in public schools? Really? In the latter case, the federal govt. stepped in when change wasn't coming on the inside.

Your actual view on the current system is irrelevant (and honestly, I don't think DarknightX cares). We're going based off what you've stated so far in this thread that somehow the healthcare system whose purpose is to fully take care of patients needs in this country should somehow also take into account a physician's (or any other health care provider's) needs. And yes, based on what you've laid out so far, you are in fact making arrogant judgements on what should or should not be changed bc you have absolutely no experience in which to base this on.
1) I'm sure they've been considered by others, but the purpose of my participation in this discussion is my own education.

2) The point of the analogy is not the path to changing policy but the fundamental ability to question things.

3) If it makes you feel better, my impression is that you are making arrogant judgments as well, so I guess we're even?
 
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I push 80 pretty frequently but still have a good quality of life. You just learn to manage your time better. I'm in good physical shape, have a strong relationship, good friends, etc.
 
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This thread is really confirming that dentistry is the right field for me.
 
1) I'm sure they've been considered by others, but the purpose of my participation in this discussion is my own education.

2) The point of the analogy is not the path to changing policy but the fundamental ability to question things.

3) If it makes you feel better, my impression is that you are making arrogant judgments as well, so I guess we're even?
You mean comments like these are for your education only and only for your fundamental ability to questions things, and not making (arrogant) judgement?
  • So what's worse for patients, residents falling asleep and functionally drunk from sleep deprivation treating them or more handoffs between residents who are in appropriate shape to treat them?
  • Also, why should patients' interests be considered alone? What's humane for residents and enables them to best learn, develop competent practice habits, and maintain their health (in all forms)?
  • I understand that residents want experience but there has to be a midpoint that maximizes educational time and minimizes the impact of the work hours; the extremes of "working literally all the time" and "working 9-5" clearly are both bad options. What is that midpoint? I don't know. Maybe it was correctly placed at ~ 100 hours/week, but that seems intuitively unlikely to me.
  • I'm not saying I think their needs are considered, but they should be. If physician needs shouldn't be considered at all, why not keep residents on call everyday? Why not require residents to pay tuition? Etc. It's important and reasonable to consider the well-being of those in a profession where the work done is not only absolutely needed but also high-risk, especially when we see that the profession is especially heavy on them as well, considering the high rates of burnout among physicians even compared to other professionals.
  • All professions should be cognizant of the effects of things like burnout on their members. Especially so in professions where the amount of time/money/effort invested in producing a single competent member is especially great.
 
If you think it's ridiculous, then don't go into medicine. I can assure you that I consistently hit over 80 hours a week, and yes, none of that counts toward reading/studying/preparation.

My days usually go like this: Get in at 6 am, round with team (expect that my interns have seen all the patients on the service, usually 10-20).

Get to OR by 7:30. Operate till about 5-6. If I'm not on call, afternoon rounds till about 7. On a good day, I'm out by 7:30-8:00 on average.

Hit the gym for 30-45 minutes. Get home. Read/study for 45-60 minutes for ABSITE/boards. Then get ready for the next day's cases. This includes reading patient's H&P and reviewing what operation we are going to do. If it's an operation I haven't seen before or not comfortable with, I'll try to watch it on youtube in addition to reading about it. Usually done with everything around 11 or midnight and then go to sleep.

If I'm on call (we do Q3-Q4 call, depending on rotation), I usually stay the next day till about 10 or 11, unless there's cases, then I'm staying until cases are done. If they are cases my junior can cover (hernia, gallbladder, appy, etc), then I'll leave it to them. If it's a senior level case or something I haven't seen before, then I'm staying to do it.

Sleep and work, nothing else.....sounds just about right.

Despite all this work, I still don't feel ready to be on my own.

Legitimate question out of my own curiosity: when do you find time to do things like laundry, clean the house, cook dinner, get an oil change, etc? Is this all intermittent among evening studying/prepping? I admit I don't know a ton about the residency life style (as I am not a resident) so I'd like to learn how you manage to fit it all in.
 
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I think he's MLK?
You mean you didn't feel like John F. Kennedy when you got back your stellar 99th percentile MCAT and graduated with a high undergrad GPA? I know I did. Or I guess according to the analogy, more like George Wallace.
 
You mean comments like these are for your education only and only for your fundamental ability to questions things, and not making (arrogant) judgement?
  • So what's worse for patients, residents falling asleep and functionally drunk from sleep deprivation treating them or more handoffs between residents who are in appropriate shape to treat them?
  • Also, why should patients' interests be considered alone? What's humane for residents and enables them to best learn, develop competent practice habits, and maintain their health (in all forms)?
  • I understand that residents want experience but there has to be a midpoint that maximizes educational time and minimizes the impact of the work hours; the extremes of "working literally all the time" and "working 9-5" clearly are both bad options. What is that midpoint? I don't know. Maybe it was correctly placed at ~ 100 hours/week, but that seems intuitively unlikely to me.
  • I'm not saying I think their needs are considered, but they should be. If physician needs shouldn't be considered at all, why not keep residents on call everyday? Why not require residents to pay tuition? Etc. It's important and reasonable to consider the well-being of those in a profession where the work done is not only absolutely needed but also high-risk, especially when we see that the profession is especially heavy on them as well, considering the high rates of burnout among physicians even compared to other professionals.
  • All professions should be cognizant of the effects of things like burnout on their members. Especially so in professions where the amount of time/money/effort invested in producing a single competent member is especially great.
I honestly cannot fathom how you don't think those are all reasonable statements.
 
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Since EM attending physicians can get away with working 30-40 hours per week, can EM residents also get away with working the same number of hours per week? I'm assuming IM residents and residents of other fields have to do close to the full 80?

I still don't think 80+ hour weeks (or 100+ hour weeks as the old school residents did it) is healthy. Why can't residents work less hours and other attending physicians and residents take up the rest of the hours? I don't find this line of reasoning to be very logical. It's like going up to someone who works at a 24/7 IHOP and telling them "hey you, you better start working hundred hours a week because who will work here when you're not here?" The person's reply "anyone else who's trained to work here"
If there's not enough money to pay additional residents and attending physicians, then simply don't provide the medical care. Let patients not receive care and the resulting public outcry will force the government to give more money towards residency training programs.

Even if the "majority" of residents disagree with me, I still feel residents should have the option to extend the number of years of their residency so that their working hours are more reasonable.
This is so wrong on so many levels that I've lost my ability to even.

First up, as an EM resident you'll work a pretty consistent 60 hours per week on your EM weeks, and 65-80 on your non-EM weeks. You need to work those extra hours to see things- if you were only there 8 hours a day, you'd only see either the beginning or end of many of the more challenging admits. You wouldn't get to see the full arc of care, and you'd come out as a pretty awful physician because of it. Medicine isn't about reading a bunch of books and learning a bunch of things in labs- it's about learning by doing. Less time in the hospital equals less skill as a physician, worse care for your patients, and a higher chance you'll get the living hell sued out of you.

Anyone can work at IHOP. You need another waitress, you just throw up a sign, train her in a week, and you're good to go. Physicians take 11-15 years and damn near a million dollars each to train. You can't just crank them out as needed. The next problem is, when you become a physician, you are taking on a career that has a certain responsibility attached to it. You can't just ethically say, "let's all stop working over 40 hours a week and let a bunch of people die and that will show the public how much they need us!" We're better than that. Next up, if you were only working 40 hours a week, wages, in most fields, would drop substantially. A large part of the reason physicians are compensated as highly as they are is because we do work so hard, train so hard, and put in so much time. You work half as much, you're going to get paid half as much. Since the vast majority of us would prefer to be making a decent salary, and you're probably going to be working for other physicians, you have to play by the established rules of the field. You become a senior attending that makes the schedule and only wants to work 40 hours? Go right ahead, but don't be surprised if your group tries to get rid of you for not pulling your weight.

The other thing you're not looking at is that we have competition now- if we decide to act like less than physicians by working nursing hours and expecting nursing levels of responsibility, they'll just swap us out for nurse practitioners. A large part of what sets physicians apart is their extensive training and the long hours we put in to provide continuity of care. Which brings up a last point- more handoffs have been proven to cause more errors and patient deaths. It is straight up bad for patient care to have more providers caring for patients, and saving patients, not your personal comfort, is what medicine is all about.
 
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This is so wrong on so many levels that I've lost my ability to even.

First up, as an EM resident you'll work a pretty consistent 60 hours per week on your EM weeks, and 65-80 on your non-EM weeks. You need to work those extra hours to see things- if you were only there 8 hours a day, you'd only see either the beginning or end of many of the more challenging admits. You wouldn't get to see the full arc of care, and you'd come out as a pretty awful physician because of it. Medicine isn't about reading a bunch of books and learning a bunch of things in labs- it's about learning by doing. Less time in the hospital equals less skill as a physician, worse care for your patients, and a higher chance you'll get the living hell sued out of you.

Anyone can work at IHOP. You need another waitress, you just throw up a sign, train her in a week, and you're good to go. Physicians take 11-15 years and damn near a million dollars each to train. You can't just crank them out as needed. The next problem is, when you become a physician, you are taking on a career that has a certain responsibility attached to it. You can't just ethically say, "let's all stop working over 40 hours a week and let a bunch of people die and that will show the public how much they need us!" We're better than that. Next up, if you were only working 40 hours a week, wages, in most fields, would drop substantially. A large part of the reason physicians are compensated as highly as they are is because we do work so hard, train so hard, and put in so much time. You work half as much, you're going to get paid half as much. Since the vast majority of us would prefer to be making a decent salary, and you're probably going to be working for other physicians, you have to play by the established rules of the field. You become a senior attending that makes the schedule and only wants to work 40 hours? Go right ahead, but don't be surprised if your group tries to get rid of you for not pulling your weight.

The other thing you're not looking at is that we have competition now- if we decide to act like less than physicians by working nursing hours and expecting nursing levels of responsibility, they'll just swap us out for nurse practitioners. A large part of what sets physicians apart is their extensive training and the long hours we put in to provide continuity of care. Which brings up a last point- more handoffs have been proven to cause more errors and patient deaths. It is straight up bad for patient care to have more providers caring for patients, and saving patients, not your personal comfort, is what medicine is all about.
I so did not even see the part where he said, "If there's not enough money to pay additional residents and attending physicians, then simply don't provide the medical care. Let patients not receive care and the resulting public outcry will force the government to give more money towards residency training programs." Wow, just...wow.
 
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I honestly cannot fathom how you don't see that those are judgement calls on your part.
They are, but I don't think I'm being arrogant; I've openly claimed to not know what the best choices for training are. On the other hand, you're in a side conversation in this thread with another physician making fun of my posts.
 
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You mean comments like these are for your education only and only for your fundamental ability to questions things, and not making (arrogant) judgement?
  • So what's worse for patients, residents falling asleep and functionally drunk from sleep deprivation treating them or more handoffs between residents who are in appropriate shape to treat them?
  • Also, why should patients' interests be considered alone? What's humane for residents and enables them to best learn, develop competent practice habits, and maintain their health (in all forms)?
  • I understand that residents want experience but there has to be a midpoint that maximizes educational time and minimizes the impact of the work hours; the extremes of "working literally all the time" and "working 9-5" clearly are both bad options. What is that midpoint? I don't know. Maybe it was correctly placed at ~ 100 hours/week, but that seems intuitively unlikely to me.
  • I'm not saying I think their needs are considered, but they should be. If physician needs shouldn't be considered at all, why not keep residents on call everyday? Why not require residents to pay tuition? Etc. It's important and reasonable to consider the well-being of those in a profession where the work done is not only absolutely needed but also high-risk, especially when we see that the profession is especially heavy on them as well, considering the high rates of burnout among physicians even compared to other professionals.
  • All professions should be cognizant of the effects of things like burnout on their members. Especially so in professions where the amount of time/money/effort invested in producing a single competent member is especially great.
There has been zero change in patient outcomes since cutting back to 80 hours a week, so the only reason for a program to have 80 hours versus 100 hours is resident comfort.

http://www.health.umn.edu/news-rele...al-resident-hours-appears-have-no-significant
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/03/140325190830.htm

Let me also say that I'm obviously okay with being comfortable in residency, but from a policy standpoint, working residents damn near to death is a win for everyone but the residents- hospitals get more labor and revenue, patients get more care.
 
They are, but I don't think I'm being arrogant; I've openly claimed to not know what the best choices for training are. On the other hand, you're in a side conversation in this thread with another physician making fun of my posts.
Bc once you finish the journey (and it truly is one) of medical school and re-read your posts, you will realize just how foolish and arrogant sounding they are and realize how little you knew then and will fully understand what we are saying now.
 
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There has been zero change in patient outcomes since cutting back to 80 hours a week, so the only reason for a program to have 80 hours versus 100 hours is resident comfort.

http://www.health.umn.edu/news-rele...al-resident-hours-appears-have-no-significant
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/03/140325190830.htm
I think we've moved the goal posts down to as long as patient care doesn't get WORSE then it was before work-hour restrictions, then we're a-ok.
 
Bc once you finish the journey (and it truly is one) of medical school and re-read your posts, you will realize just how foolish and arrogant sounding they are and realize how little you knew then and will fully understand what we are saying now.
Justification of your rudeness is not the response I was looking for.
 
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I think we've moved the goal posts down to as long as patient care doesn't get WORSE then it was before work-hour restrictions, then we're a-ok.
I agree with you. But hospitals want more labor, the government wants more providers, and patients want more care. So, for everyone but the residents, working as many hours as possible is desirable.
 
Justification of your rudeness is not the response I was looking for.
I wasn't being "rude". Your judgements were based on a tinge of arrogance. I also think you give up the mantle of accusing someone of rudeness, when you analogize the situation of you questioning the system to school children questioning racial segregation in their public schools.
 
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I wasn't being "rude". Your judgements were based on a tinge of arrogance. I also think you give up the mantle of accusing someone of rudeness, when you analogize the situation of you questioning the system to school children questioning racial segregation in their public schools.
I find it rude. If you can't contribute to discussion in a positive manner (and mocking a user is not) then you should review the SDN Terms of Service.

I also see no problem with the analogy I drew; both cases are situations where those in power tell those who are not that they have no right to question the system. Clearly the analogy is intended to be powerful, but if you don't see the point then I'm afraid I won't get through to you.
 
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I find it rude. If you can't contribute to discussion in a positive manner (and mocking a user is not) then you should review the SDN Terms of Service.

I also see no problem with the analogy I drew; both cases are situations where those in power tell those who are not that they have no right to question the system. Clearly the analogy is intended to be powerful, but if you don't see the point then I'm afraid I won't get through to you.
You're right. I should not have brought your MCAT/GPA into play esp. as you're a moderator and it can be construed as mocking. You are correct on that, and I apologize. I stand by what I said regarding your statements being more judgement calls rather than true questioning wishing to be educated on the matter.

If you see absolutely no problem in drawing a grotesque analogy between school children who question racial segregation in their public school system (with those who supported the system status quo during that time period) and premeds questioning residency work hours (and those who support the system status quo as it is now without restricting it even further), then there is really no point in discussing it any further with you.
 
You're right. I should not have brought your MCAT/GPA into play esp. as you're a moderator and it can be construed as mocking. You are correct on that, and I apologize. I stand by what I said regarding your statements being more judgement calls rather than true questioning wishing to be educated on the matter.

If you see absolutely no problem in drawing a grotesque analogy between school children who question racial segregation in their public school system (with those who supported the system status quo during that time period) and premeds questioning residency work hours (and those who support the system status quo as it is now without restricting it even further), then there is really no point in discussing it any further with you.
Not "especially as I'm a moderator," just in general. It's not nice to anyone. And yes, clearly we can't have a productive discussion any further.
 
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I wasn't being "rude". Your judgements were based on a tinge of arrogance. I also think you give up the mantle of accusing someone of rudeness, when you analogize the situation of you questioning the system to school children questioning racial segregation in their public schools.

Can you explain why what @gettheleadout said is arrogant? I am still having a problem wrapping my head around why questioning a system in place is considered conceited (even if it is just a "tinge") nor do I understand why he cannot draw the analogies he drew. Instead of assuming malice, why not just answer the points/questions he made regardless of his status in the field or what you assume his intentions to be? Even if his point is "immature" in your opinion, can't you inform it without attacking him or his statements?

It was very challenging to read through all the hyperbole and ad hominem.
 
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Can you explain why what @gettheleadout said is arrogant? I am still having a problem wrapping my head around why questioning a system in place is considered conceited (even if it is just a "tinge") nor do I understand why he cannot draw the analogies he drew. Instead of assuming malice, why not just answer the points/questions he made regardless of his status in the field or what you assume his intentions to be? Even if his point is "immature" in your opinion, can't you inform it without attacking him or his statements?

It was very challenging to read through all the hyperbole and ad hominem.
The judgement behind his statements above that I bullet pointed are arrogant/conceited. The healthcare system is 100% for taking care of patients. It's supposed to be patient-centric. That's its #1 purpose. PERIOD. Every other purpose is completely secondary to that. His statements quite clearly have the underlying implication that there are other forces that the system should somehow actively take into account (do u disagree with that?), thus automatically making the patient not the #1 priority.

Guess what, if a patient is septic and crashing --- your sleep, your hunger, your thirst, your comfort and lifestyle is 100% IRRELEVANT to the healthcare system. If a patient has metastatic melanoma and is in the hospital and you get a page from the nurse about them needing pain medication - your immediate need to sit down, get a break, and eat, comes secondary to going to the patient, evaluating them to see if they're ok and then giving them the appropriate medication as needed. This is someone's mother, someone's family member, someone's child. You'll hear this phrase again and again during internship, "It's not about you, it's about the patient."

Being a physician is a CHOICE, and it's also a calling. You don't get to just strut around in a white coat, cash your 6 figure paycheck, get galling admiration and prestige from others, call yourself a physician and call it a day, without having the actual responsibility of a physician. That means at least as a resident seeing your specialty's patients, evaluating and treating them, eventually going home and reading about your patient's problems in your specialty textbook, reading numerous journal articles, and being able to answer pimp questions from attendings at conferences, etc. etc.

It was a bad analogy on his part to use (and I'm not the only one who pointed this out).
 
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I'm definitely not one looking to do a 9-5 residency or clock out and leave work for my colleagues. I understand that residents want experience but there has to be a midpoint that maximizes educational time and minimizes the impact of the work hours; the extremes of "working literally all the time" and "working 9-5" clearly are both bad options. What is that midpoint? I don't know. Maybe it was correctly placed at ~ 100 hours/week, but that seems intuitively unlikely to me.

I think what you are also missing is the service component of residency. Service can't be excessive or get in the way of your education. But, at the end of the day, the government is paying for you to be trained by your program. Residency is not just about entitlement to education. What I am saying is that putting an an arbitrary cap is just stupid.
 
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The judgement behind his statements above that I bullet pointed are arrogant/conceited. The healthcare system is 100% for taking care of patients. It's supposed to be patient-centric. That's its #1 purpose. PERIOD. Every other purpose is completely secondary to that. His statements quite clearly have the underlying implication that there are other forces that the system should somehow actively take into account (do u disagree with that?), thus automatically making the patient not the #1 priority.

No nor do I don't think that was his point (although I cannot speak for him). Is it reasonable to suggest that because the patient is the number 1 priority, treating him/her with a physician that is sleep deprived will hinder their treatment?

Guess what, if a patient is septic and crashing --- your sleep, your hunger, your thirst, your comfort and lifestyle is 100% IRRELEVANT to the healthcare system. If a patient has metastatic melanoma and is in the hospital and you get a page from the nurse about them needing pain medication - your immediate need to sit down, get a break, and eat, comes secondary to going to the patient, evaluating them to see if they're ok and then giving them the appropriate medication as needed. This is someone's mother, someone's family member, someone's child. You'll hear this phrase again and again during internship, "It's not about you, it's about the patient."

No disagreement here assuming that the physician(s) not meeting their "needs" are not going to detract from the most optimal patient care.

Being a physician is a CHOICE, and it's also a calling. You don't get to just strut around in a white coat, cash your 6 figure paycheck, get galling admiration and prestige from others, call yourself a physician and call it a day, without having the actual responsibility of a physician. That means at least as a resident seeing your specialty's patients, evaluating and treating them, eventually going home and reading about your patient's problems in your specialty textbook, reading numerous journal articles, and being able to answer pimp questions from attendings at conferences, etc. etc.

I don't think anyone was suggesting otherwise. There was an assumption made if you think that @gettheleadout was implying anything other than the patient being the #1 priority and focus of a competent physician. If you still don't think so see his car analogy made in an earlier post for clarification on this point.

It was a bad analogy on his part to use (and I'm not the only one who pointed this out).

Why was it a bad analogy? It not making you "feel" good isn't a good reason to dismiss it no matter how extreme it may be. IMHO, it addressed the point of questioning institutionalized beliefs.
 
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The judgement behind his statements above that I bullet pointed are arrogant/conceited. The healthcare system is 100% for taking care of patients. It's supposed to be patient-centric. That's its #1 purpose. PERIOD. Every other purpose is completely secondary to that. His statements quite clearly have the underlying implication that there are other forces that the system should somehow actively take into account (do u disagree with that?), thus automatically making the patient not the #1 priority.

Guess what, if a patient is septic and crashing --- your sleep, your hunger, your thirst, your comfort and lifestyle is 100% IRRELEVANT to the healthcare system. If a patient has metastatic melanoma and is in the hospital and you get a page from the nurse about them needing pain medication - your immediate need to sit down, get a break, and eat, comes secondary to going to the patient, evaluating them to see if they're ok and then giving them the appropriate medication as needed. This is someone's mother, someone's family member, someone's child. You'll hear this phrase again and again during internship, "It's not about you, it's about the patient."

Being a physician is a CHOICE, and it's also a calling. You don't get to just strut around in a white coat, cash your 6 figure paycheck, get galling admiration and prestige from others, call yourself a physician and call it a day, without having the actual responsibility of a physician. That means at least as a resident seeing your specialty's patients, evaluating and treating them, eventually going home and reading about your patient's problems in your specialty textbook, reading numerous journal articles, and being able to answer pimp questions from attendings at conferences, etc. etc.

It was a bad analogy on his part to use (and I'm not the only one who pointed this out).

Hmm, if it's 100% about the patient and the physician doesn't matter at all, then why should physicians even get any time off? Let's just make residents work 24 hours a day, 7 days a week at the hospital! Then the resident can be there to see the pathology develop completely and observe the full arc of care. Who cares if the resident dies of fatigue? The patients are all that count.

Residents are also someone's mother, someone's family member, someone's child. They are not robots who can work continuously for 120 hours every week (including reading/studying) without wear and tear. I'm not saying residents have to work only 40 hours a week but there has to be a limit. How about residents work 60-70 hours a week and those 60-70 hours include the time needed to read and study?

What worries me now is that this 80 hour restriction might be useless because some residents are being pressurized to work much more than 80 hours and then lie on their hour sheets and say they only worked 80 so that other residents can feel that they are "pulling their weight". So someone can work 100 hours in the hospital and then spend an additional 30 hours every week reading/studying/preparing for presentations.

Just because someone chooses to be a physician doesn't mean they deserve to be treated like a donkey.
 
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IMHO, it addressed the point of questioning institutionalized beliefs.

So I think the larger point that's been lost in the more recent squabbling posts isn't the inherent issue of questioning institutionalized beliefs and whether you need adequate exposure to the institution to have a right to question it.

The larger point was that you're getting several posts from residents/graduates explaining what the realities of training are (i.e. the hours, the calls, the lack of time off, etc), and several posts from residents demonstrating the most common attitude toward that reality (i.e. once you start training you will realize how precious little time you have to learn what you need to learn, and more commonly residents are clambering for MORE not LESS and feel frustrated by external limitations being imposed on responsible adult learners).

If, as a pre-med, you:
(a) find the realities of the hours depressing/horrifying/unimaginable/etc - then you should get out now while you still can.
(b) find the attitudes of residents regarding the work hours and their learning a major cognitive disconnect to your own attitude, you should consider whether your attitude is either uninformed or not conducive to happiness in residency.
 
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The judgement behind his statements above that I bullet pointed are arrogant/conceited. The healthcare system is 100% for taking care of patients. It's supposed to be patient-centric. That's its #1 purpose. PERIOD. Every other purpose is completely secondary to that. His statements quite clearly have the underlying implication that there are other forces that the system should somehow actively take into account (do u disagree with that?), thus automatically making the patient not the #1 priority.

Guess what, if a patient is septic and crashing --- your sleep, your hunger, your thirst, your comfort and lifestyle is 100% IRRELEVANT to the healthcare system. If a patient has metastatic melanoma and is in the hospital and you get a page from the nurse about them needing pain medication - your immediate need to sit down, get a break, and eat, comes secondary to going to the patient, evaluating them to see if they're ok and then giving them the appropriate medication as needed. This is someone's mother, someone's family member, someone's child. You'll hear this phrase again and again during internship, "It's not about you, it's about the patient."

Being a physician is a CHOICE, and it's also a calling. You don't get to just strut around in a white coat, cash your 6 figure paycheck, get galling admiration and prestige from others, call yourself a physician and call it a day, without having the actual responsibility of a physician. That means at least as a resident seeing your specialty's patients, evaluating and treating them, eventually going home and reading about your patient's problems in your specialty textbook, reading numerous journal articles, and being able to answer pimp questions from attendings at conferences, etc. etc.

It was a bad analogy on his part to use (and I'm not the only one who pointed this out).

The example above is extreme, but more or less, yes, the patient always comes first. Thankfully though, there is a break, and when YOU are done, the patient will be still the top priority, but now someone else will be on it. That's how I look at it. When I'm at work, focus on the tasks at hand. once you are out of work, you can focus on you as the #1 person.

Although, for the pain medicine example in certain cities, some of the nurses will be like "Girl please, I need to finish my smoke break and wait like 10 mins before giving the morphine to that melanoma patient. ****, I need it, after all, I had extra donuts today and now gonna gain two entire pounds. That whiny old guy is just gonna have to wait for his drugs.". Of course, the union will back that up, saying that their rights are above everyone else's...

Also guys, residency is finite! The people here are talking about work hours, but as attendings, they might work less and have a better lifestyle. I know I sure as **** not taking call as an attending. Which is good. However, I do have to suck up the brutality of being up in the wee hours of the night, to earn the right to make a decent living, have a decent schedule, and live in a decent place. All in due time.
 
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If you think it's ridiculous, then don't go into medicine. I can assure you that I consistently hit over 80 hours a week, and yes, none of that counts toward reading/studying/preparation.

My days usually go like this: Get in at 6 am, round with team (expect that my interns have seen all the patients on the service, usually 10-20).

Get to OR by 7:30. Operate till about 5-6. If I'm not on call, afternoon rounds till about 7. On a good day, I'm out by 7:30-8:00 on average.

Hit the gym for 30-45 minutes. Get home. Read/study for 45-60 minutes for ABSITE/boards. Then get ready for the next day's cases. This includes reading patient's H&P and reviewing what operation we are going to do. If it's an operation I haven't seen before or not comfortable with, I'll try to watch it on youtube in addition to reading about it. Usually done with everything around 11 or midnight and then go to sleep.

If I'm on call (we do Q3-Q4 call, depending on rotation), I usually stay the next day till about 10 or 11, unless there's cases, then I'm staying until cases are done. If they are cases my junior can cover (hernia, gallbladder, appy, etc), then I'll leave it to them. If it's a senior level case or something I haven't seen before, then I'm staying to do it.

Sleep and work, nothing else.....sounds just about right.

Despite all this work, I still don't feel ready to be on my own.
I didn't see this post initially.

What surgical field are you in?

How many days per week does this represent?


Sent from my neural implant using SDN Mobile
 
I didn't see this post initially.

What surgical field are you in?

How many days per week does this represent?


Sent from my neural implant using SDN Mobile

Sounds like general surgery and a mid-to-senior resident.

My days as a junior were more defined, and I never had issues with the duty hours.

I can tell you though, as a chief in two years, I will be giving zero f***s about duty hours. My logged hours will be compliant and my program won't care as long as I make the duty hours report look good. I will also be on home call approximately 250 days out of the 365 days of the year for my service. But I will also do 350-400 cases for the year, with opportunities for autonomy and taking juniors through cases. It's the most formative year of your residency.

Basic schedule for a chief's day:
*5AM - wake up, mentally run the list and/or chart biopsy online
*6AM-7AM - AM rounds
(*earlier start time if heavy service)
7AM-7:30 AM: Staff with attendings, breakfast
**7:30AM - 5:00 or 6:oops:oPM - OR
(**Or later if long day, shorter if short day - but that's average. Plus getting service updates in between cases)
5:00-6:00 PM - PM rounds
7:00 PM - home
7:00-9:00 PM - Gym, dinner, relax
9:00-10:00 PM - Prepare for tomorrow's cases
10:00 PM-5:00 AM - On home call for any issues intern cannot handle independently or any emergencies (which would require going in to hospital)
Rinse and repeat everyday, except for weekends you are off and vacations.
 
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Do these caps have anything to do with the growing number of surgical residents pursuing some sort of fellowship training?
 
I bet if the same questions brought up by premeds here were asked by a resident you guys wouldn't be so disrespectful.

So ironic that you think premeds are the ones with inflated egos.
 
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That still sounds very unhealthy. Why not 8 hours a day, 5 days a week? or four 12 hour shifts per week?

Unless you only do outpatient medicine, you can't see enough patients in that time to make it worthwhile.

Pretty sure you do that one to yourself. I don't know a single physician outside of the surgical subspecialties that clocks over 80 hours a week regularly as an attending because they have to. There's a few hospitalists that pick up extra hours and end up working 18-30 days straight sometimes, but that's really them doing it to themselves for the money, not because they're being forced to be their group.

True, most attendings aren't working 80 hour weeks. But there are multiple attendings who work a full day, are on call overnight (which can vary between home call and in house call), and then work a full day the next day. One of my attendings a few weeks ago worked from 6 am on one day til about 4pm the following day without a single complaint. It's a little difficult to complain about a 12 hour day when you have attendings doing that.

Legitimate question out of my own curiosity: when do you find time to do things like laundry, clean the house, cook dinner, get an oil change, etc? Is this all intermittent among evening studying/prepping? I admit I don't know a ton about the residency life style (as I am not a resident) so I'd like to learn how you manage to fit it all in.

You find time. I do laundry as soon as I get home, I clean my apartment on my days off, I try to squeeze reading into downtimes on service (sometimes, there aren't any). As far as out of the house errands--most of us get those done on our rare day off or while we're on nights (we usually wake up early to mid-afternoon, and fall asleep as soon as we get home in the morning). Cooking is hit or miss--I can usually manage to make it a couple nights a week from complete scratch, and eat leftovers or lots of snacks (cheese and crackers, hummus and peppers, etc) the rest of the week. A fair number eat out all the time, and another sizable portion have a significant other to help out.
 
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The example above is extreme, but more or less, yes, the patient always comes first. Thankfully though, there is a break, and when YOU are done, the patient will be still the top priority, but now someone else will be on it. That's how I look at it. When I'm at work, focus on the tasks at hand. once you are out of work, you can focus on you as the #1 person.

Although, for the pain medicine example in certain cities, some of the nurses will be like "Girl please, I need to finish my smoke break and wait like 10 mins before giving the morphine to that melanoma patient. ****, I need it, after all, I had extra donuts today and now gonna gain two entire pounds. That whiny old guy is just gonna have to wait for his drugs.". Of course, the union will back that up, saying that their rights are above everyone else's...

Also guys, residency is finite! The people here are talking about work hours, but as attendings, they might work less and have a better lifestyle. I know I sure as **** not taking call as an attending. Which is good. However, I do have to suck up the brutality of being up in the wee hours of the night, to earn the right to make a decent living, have a decent schedule, and live in a decent place. All in due time.

I'm extremely hesitant to wade into this ****show of a thread, but as someone who feels like they don't know enough about the practical aspects of medicine and medical training:

1) The "residency is finite" comment is my attitude towards the harsh realities being described, and I wonder if you all think that's a reasonable attitude. Many of you are commenting that "if you're questioning the hours now, go into dentistry." Well, I have been burnt out before. I could not live the life you're describing for more than 3-5 years without going crazy. However, most of the physicians I know work in a clinical environment, and while their hours are jam-packed, they get to go home at 5-6pm and be with their families on nights and weekends. I expect to go through a few years of hell from MS3-residency, and then come out the other side with something resembling a sane lifestyle. Is that a reasonable attitude to take?

1b) I also understand that surgery residencies are unusually long, and surgery is not something I'd be interested in pursuing (I don't have the dexterity for it). How much of the attitude being presented is specific to a surgical residency? At the moment, I'm leaning towards an allergy/immunology residency, although I'm aware of the fact that I know too little to say for certain what I want.

2) What resources would you all recommend I look into to get more information? I'm on the MD-PhD path, and the physicians I've shadowed either work 8-5, or are 80/20 MD/PhDs themselves, and thus only work a day a week in the clinic, with 2 weeks a year on the wards full time. The ECs I have are mental-health focused, so it's a different environment then what you all are describing.
 
Yes it is. Remember, residency is TRAINING. Not all doctors are surgeons who work crazy hours, and hell, when you are knee deep in practice, you can limit it to more lifestyle hours. If you want to work so that you can get home at 5-6 and be with family at night/weekend, you can ABSOLUTELY do that. Of course, it all varies by specialty.
 
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80 is not a ton of hours but what really crushes imo is not having any day off for multiple (4+) weeks at a time because of stupid 16hr rules.
 
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Do these caps have anything to do with the growing number of surgical residents pursuing some sort of fellowship training?
The number of surgical residents pursuing fellowships has held steady at 75-80% for several decades, clearly preceding any work hour restrictions.

I find it interesting that while some of the respondents here are surgical residents, some of the most vocal in support of longer working hours are NOT surgeons but rather two in some pretty lifestyle friendly specialties (Derm and Psych). It goes to show you that almost every one realizes the importance of just "being there".
 
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The number of surgical residents pursuing fellowships has held steady at 75-80% for several decades, clearly preceding any work hour restrictions.
Thanks for responding. I've read somewhere that more ortho surgeons currently seek fellowship training after their residency than in previous years. I guess it was wrong for me to imply that this also applies to other surgical fields.
http://www.healio.com/orthopedics/j...mportance-of-fellowship-subspecialty-training
 
Thanks for responding. I've read somewhere that more ortho surgeons currently seek fellowship training after their residency than in previous years. I guess it was wrong for me to imply that this also applies to other surgical fields.
http://www.healio.com/orthopedics/journals/ortho/2012-4-35-4/{16305018-67ec-45a3-a524-bcf47baa56ad}/trends-in-the-orthopedic-job-market-and-the-importance-of-fellowship-subspecialty-training
Fair enough. I'd forgotten other surgical fields existed. ;)
 
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I bet if the same questions brought up by premeds here were asked by a resident you guys wouldn't be so disrespectful.

So ironic that you think premeds are the ones with inflated egos.
It wouldn't make much sense for residents to be asking these questions when they are already in it experiencing it.
 
I'm extremely hesitant to wade into this ****show of a thread, but as someone who feels like they don't know enough about the practical aspects of medicine and medical training:

1) The "residency is finite" comment is my attitude towards the harsh realities being described, and I wonder if you all think that's a reasonable attitude. Many of you are commenting that "if you're questioning the hours now, go into dentistry." Well, I have been burnt out before. I could not live the life you're describing for more than 3-5 years without going crazy. However, most of the physicians I know work in a clinical environment, and while their hours are jam-packed, they get to go home at 5-6pm and be with their families on nights and weekends. I expect to go through a few years of hell from MS3-residency, and then come out the other side with something resembling a sane lifestyle. Is that a reasonable attitude to take?

1b) I also understand that surgery residencies are unusually long, and surgery is not something I'd be interested in pursuing (I don't have the dexterity for it). How much of the attitude being presented is specific to a surgical residency? At the moment, I'm leaning towards an allergy/immunology residency, although I'm aware of the fact that I know too little to say for certain what I want.

2) What resources would you all recommend I look into to get more information? I'm on the MD-PhD path, and the physicians I've shadowed either work 8-5, or are 80/20 MD/PhDs themselves, and thus only work a day a week in the clinic, with 2 weeks a year on the wards full time. The ECs I have are mental-health focused, so it's a different environment then what you all are describing.

The attitudes vary widely, and they are often field-specific. Some fields are known to be pretty "benign" with respect to their training pathways; some are very competitive (e.g., derm), others are not (e.g., psych, PM&R, allergy, etc.).

If you're interested in pursuing the MSTP path, things will be a little different for you. The scheme you describe is pretty common for most MD/PhDs that I've interacted with. The whole point of the program is to prepare you to be a scientist first and a clinician second. You can certainly try and shape your career how you want, but most institutions will expect at least a 70/30 split between research and clinical work, if not more. From the institution's perspective, the revenue you generate as a research track person is from grants, not providing clinical care.
 
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Why? It has stimulated an interesting and fruitful discussion

+1 This is actually very interesting.

So then the way a particular team/ hospital logs and enforces their hours can have an impact on the quality of training you receive (or atleast perceive to)? That's what I gathered from your comment to not care about hour restrictions as a chief but log them as compliant.
 
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