Is the difficulty of getting into med school overhyped?

[Falconclaw]

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Okay, so I'm looking at this chart https://www.aamc.org/download/321508/data/2012factstable24.pdf

It doesn't take EC's into account, but if you have a 3.5 and a 34 MCAT score (I don't have either of these, but if I had to estimate what I would have at the time of application, it would probably be around this) you have a 65% chance of getting in.

Overall, of course, acceptance rates are 9%, but perhaps this is because a lot of applicants really just aren't very serious about it?

 

[yehhhboiii]

uh no

65% of people with those stats got in to at least 1 school.
average applicant applies to around 16 schools so that means that 1/3 of people with a decent application (3.5, 34) didn't get into any school they applied to. this is after people have been weeded out by prereqs, low gpas, poor mcat scores, etc. earning a spot is pretty tough.

a 34 puts you in the top 8% of people who took the mcat. the average for matriculants is around a 32.

 

[Mt Kilimanjaro]

Okay, so I'm looking at this chart https://www.aamc.org/download/321508/data/2012factstable24.pdf

It doesn't take EC's into account, but if you have a 3.5 and a 34 MCAT score (I don't have either of these, but if I had to estimate what I would have at the time of application, it would probably be around this) you have a 65% chance of getting in.

Overall, of course, acceptance rates are 9%, but perhaps this is because a lot of applicants really just aren't very serious about it?

It's difficult but definitely overblown. Many people apply very late or with zero clinical experience or with a terribly prepared application or with glaring errors in their app. I don't know the numbers, but I'd guess that for every stellar applicant there's 0.5-1.0 terrible ones. People who review applications can correct me if I'm totally wrong.

Those percentages are of the total applications submitted, even if the person filled out two secondaries and sent them in the day before the deadlines, not just the competitive ones. But it's still not easy.

 

[Euxox]

uh no

a 34 puts you in the top 8% of people who took the mcat. the average for matriculants is around a 32.

Agreed. The average MCAT for HYPSM undegrads is usually around 33. Assuming that you will get a 34 is a rather big assumption. That said, I think the reason MCAT averages are so slow is that most test takers go in uninformed and therefore unprepared. If you start studying 3 - 4 months ahead of your MCAT and do a few thousand practice problems (I did 5000 - 6000, if I remember correctly -- it's not as many as it might sound) there is no reason that you shouldn't get a decent score on your MCAT.

MCAT aside, is the difficulty of getting into medical school overblown? Well if you have a 3.8/38, it is. If you have a 2.7/27, it most certainly is not. For most med school applicants it is not.

 

[Falconclaw]

Agreed. The average MCAT for HYPSM undegrads is usually around 33. Assuming that you will get a 34 is a rather big assumption. That said, I think the reason MCAT averages are so slow is that most test takers go in uninformed and therefore unprepared. If you start studying 3 - 4 months ahead of your MCAT and do a few thousand practice problems (I did 5000 - 6000, if I remember correctly -- it's not as many as it might sound) there is no reason that you shouldn't get a decent score on your MCAT.

MCAT aside, is the difficulty of getting into medical school overblown? Well if you have a 3.8/38, it is. If you have a 2.7/27, it most certainly is not. For most med school applicants it is not.

This is true. I'm hoping to do very well on the MCAT because I'm a good test taker, and did very well on the SAT (99th percentile).

That said, I know that the two tests are very different, since the MCAT actually requires you to know the subject material beforehand.

I'll do a practice test this summer, although I don't think it'll be much of a measure of anything since I haven't taken Orgo yet, and have only taken half of Physics.

As for HYPSM, I don't think I'm even gonna waste my time applying to those. There are people who devote every last breath to getting into medical school, and that's who gets into those schools. I'm not one of them.

 

[LizzyM]

Okay, so I'm looking at this chart https://www.aamc.org/download/321508/data/2012factstable24.pdf

It doesn't take EC's into account, but if you have a 3.5 and a 34 MCAT score (I don't have either of these, but if I had to estimate what I would have at the time of application, it would probably be around this) you have a 65% chance of getting in.

Overall, of course, acceptance rates are 9%, but perhaps this is because a lot of applicants really just aren't very serious about it?

Where do you get 9%? That 9% of the applicants to a given school get admission to that school? That's an over estimate for some schools but overall it doesn't much matter because most applicants apply to 10-20 schools. About 47% of all applicants get an offer of admission from at least one school (some get offers from a half-dozen or more). When the dust settles, more than 1/3 of the students with average GPAs among medical school applicants and above average MCATs amont applicants (3.5/34) will not have gotten even one offer of admission. One-third! That seems like a lot to me. Sure, perhaps some of them made strategic errors in the admissions process or were poorly suited to a career in medicine but I think that when 1/3 of the academically well qualified are left on the sidelines at the end of the process, you have a process that is pretty tough.

 

[pv515]

A lot of it also depends on where you're from. If you're from MS, FL, or TX, then you've got an awesome chance with a mediocre MCAT score. California? Not so much.

 

[Euxox]

As for HYPSM, I don't think I'm even gonna waste my time applying to those. There are people who devote every last breath to getting into medical school, and that's who gets into those schools. I'm not one of them.

You misunderstood me. The average MCAT for premed undergrads at HYPSM is roughly 33. The average MCAT of people who are accepted to HY(not P)S(not M) med schools is much higher, usually 36-37.

Best of luck on your MCAT. From your post it seems that your are most certainly not in the uninformed crowd that I mentioned earlier.

 

[Falconclaw]

A lot of it also depends on where you're from. If you're from MS, FL, or TX, then you've got an awesome chance with a mediocre MCAT score. California? Not so much.

Well, I'm from New York, which is pretty bad too, but I'm definitely going to apply to schools from different areas of the country, especially since I've lived my entire life in the Northeast and would like to try something different.

On the other hand, it would be much cheaper to go to a public school in my home state.

As for the replies on this thread, they've been pretty informative. I don't know as much as you guys do since I'm new to this whole thing, but just from reading the responses, I do think a lot of people do exagerate how difficult it is, making it sound like if you don't do 100 hours of research in a lab you might as well not even apply, whereas as one poster said, 47% of applicants do get in, so if you're diligent and do everything you need to do, without doing anything superhuman, you have a reasonable chance of being accepted.

That said, it obviously isn't like law school or business school, where if you apply to enough of them, you'll probably get in no matter what.

 

[Falconclaw]

You miss understood me. The average MCAT for premed undergrads at HYPSM is roughly 33. The average MCAT of people who are accepted to HY(not P)SM med schools is much higher, usually 36-37.

Best of luck on your MCAT. From your post it seems that your are most certainly not in the uninformed crowed that I mentioned earlier.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. Wow, that is pretty crazy. I'm glad I don't have unrealistic expectations for myself. I'm pretty sure I'll be satisfied just getting into a medical school in America.

And thanks! I'll definitely start studying early. Since I'm starting the process late, I think many applicants will have better EC's than me, so I want to compensate with a very good MCAT score.

 

[Benedictus123]

SDN festers with bias regarding the difficulty of getting into med school, but it's definitely not easy to do. I honestly can't think of any application process that's more rigorous or downright involved. Graduate school is nothing application-wise in comparison (I say this as a grad student now).

Maybe the application process for a big consulting firm, like Boston Consulting. That's pretty hard too.

Also, thanks to whoever posted that awesome AMCAS chart! Makes me feel a whole lot better about my own chances!

 

[LizzyM]

Perhaps I was a bit mean when I borrowed from NCAA last football season to say, "Pre-meds, most of us are going pro in something other than medicine..." but it does reflect reality.

 

[chillaxbro]

Something like 55% of people each year don't get accepted to any medical schools and this is after 90% of people have been weeded out so I would say it's tough

 

[gmcguitar4]

It gets more and more competitive every year too. Some schools, like GW, receive a crazy amount of apps. As more people apply, it will get harder and harder. But also consider when you see a school that gets 10k applicants from the AMCAS primary, half of them are people who are way below the bar and thrown out immediately. Then you have people that don't even fill out the secondary. Then you have what is left. So now it's down to say 4-5k applicants at that school that meet the minimum and above.

I don't think the difficulty is overblown. Compared to any other professional schools it is soo much harder. First off, there are very few schools total. Then the requirements are pretty demanding. There people on these forums with top stats that will say it isn't that difficult because they have done everything right and scored amazing on the MCAT. This absolutely does not represent the majority. Many of them also have the financial means to pay for the application process. Say you did everything right, but only had enough money to apply to/interview at a couple of schools. Then your chances decrease significantly just because you can't cast as big a net as other applicants. This process is just so time consuming and costly that it is definitely very difficult to go through and be successful. If you are a hard worker and dedicated, you can absolutely do it though.

 

[Mt Kilimanjaro]

It gets more and more competitive every year too. Some schools, like GW, receive a crazy amount of apps. As more people apply, it will get harder and harder. But also consider when you see a school that gets 10k applicants from the AMCAS primary, half of them are people who are way below the bar and thrown out immediately. Then you have people that don't even fill out the secondary. Then you have what is left. So now it's down to say 4-5k applicants at that school that meet the minimum and above.

I don't think the difficulty is overblown. Compared to any other professional schools it is soo much harder. First off, there are very few schools total. Then the requirements are pretty demanding. There people on these forums with top stats that will say it isn't that difficult because they have done everything right and scored amazing on the MCAT. This absolutely does not represent the majority. Many of them also have the financial means to pay for the application process. Say you did everything right, but only had enough money to apply to/interview at a couple of schools. Then your chances decrease significantly just because you can't cast as big a net as other applicants. This process is just so time consuming and costly that it is definitely very difficult to go through and be successful. If you are a hard worker and dedicated, you can absolutely do it though.

Extremely important points. It's a process that unecessarily favors the wealthy. It could favor the wealthy a lot less by using Skype or other technology for interviews and decreasing application costs for all but the wealthiest applicants, but rich white people largely run the show and have an interest in preserving the edge their children enjoy.

 

[Arbor Vitae]

Okay, so I'm looking at this chart https://www.aamc.org/download/321508/data/2012factstable24.pdf

It doesn't take EC's into account, but if you have a 3.5 and a 34 MCAT score (I don't have either of these, but if I had to estimate what I would have at the time of application, it would probably be around this) you have a 65% chance of getting in.

Overall, of course, acceptance rates are 9%, but perhaps this is because a lot of applicants really just aren't very serious about it?

not at all, if anything, most premeds are unrealistic and refuse to believe the reality, so it's under hyped. You can't really bet off that table, because the process really is a crap shoot. It's way too subjective how you get picked to interview. It seriously depends on who reads your app and how they are feeling that day. Then after that, the interview is extremely subjective. I'd say the final committee evaluation is more objective, but the most important 2 steps to get there (interview invite and interview) are as subjective as they can get. Even though the final step is objective, your interviewer's evaluation of you is VERY subjective and could leave your app dead in the water when it comes time for the final committee deliberations.

 

[Moxess]

A lot of it also depends on where you're from. If you're from MS, FL, or TX, then you've got an awesome chance with a mediocre MCAT score. California? Not so much.

Wait, why do people from MS, FL, or TX have an advantage?

 

[deleted307836]

FL and TX both have many state medical schools relative to their population -- I don't know about Florida, but Texas is required to accept 90% in-state students to their classes. This creates a more favorable admissions environment. I think Texas matriculants have very comparable numbers to other accepted students around the country, but they also probably apply to fewer schools on average.

 

[Falconclaw]

FL and TX both have many state medical schools relative to their population -- I don't know about Florida, but Texas is required to accept 90% in-state students to their classes. This creates a more favorable admissions environment. I think Texas matriculants have very comparable numbers to other accepted students around the country, but they also probably apply to fewer schools on average.

Hmm, so it's probably not really worth it for someone who's not from Texas to apply to a Texas medical school?

 

[EnginrTheFuture]

Extremely important points. It's a process that unecessarily favors the wealthy. It could favor the wealthy a lot less by using Skype or other technology for interviews and decreasing application costs for all but the wealthiest applicants, but rich white people largely run the show and have an interest in preserving the edge their children enjoy.

Not sure if I agree with this. A LOT of doctors and "rich white people" now-a-days are telling their kids to not go into medicine. "Rich white people" are hooking their kids up with business internships/jobs. Accounting and i-banking is where that "class" goes (if you want to generalize and conspire).

AMCAS gives free application waivers to those in need. There were numerous schools I interviewed at this year that partially or fully reimbursed students for travel if they were in need. If one applies to schools in an area they have ties to (generally what people do regardless of socio-economic status), there are so many ways to make the interview process reasonably priced. Take buses instead of planes, send in-the-area emails, be frugal.

You are applying for the opportunity to pay 130-250k in tuition... Everyone should consider the 2-3k for applications/interviewing as a part of tuition (if you are a strong applicant). The cost of applying should not be a deterrent to anyone willing to go hundreds of thousands in the hole to attend. When you get in, pay off the interview/application credit cards with a small part of the student loans you receive and live in a slightly cheaper apartment. That's what I am doing. That's what a few of my friends are doing. Better yet, take a year off and save some money/ improve your application.

 

[JBOB]

Based on what I've observed, the overwhelming majority of weedout happens before the actual application process, so a 47% total acceptance rate (or whatever it is nationally) makes it seem a lot easier than it actually is. For example, at my undergrad there were some 200 freshman on the premed track, but by senior year there were about 40, I'm not sure how many took the MCAT. 10 students actually applied to MD schools this year, 6 got in, so the school boasts a 60% acceptance rate, even though only 3% of the students that started off as "pre-med entry" got in.

 

[Non Pizza Lunch]

Something like 55% of people each year don't get accepted to any medical schools and this is after 90% of people have been weeded out so I would say it's tough

this really. There have been sooooo many people weeded out before you even start applying. I remember my first year undergrad bio class >70% of the class thought about being a physician. Just reaching that point can be a lot of work, and then it's another half that don't get in, effectively putting them in Limbo.

I also think reading SDN you have a false sense of how difficult some of these exams are. >36 MCAT almost seems like cake-walk since the people who score high tend to show their scores.

This also applies to step I scores. The way even Pre-meds post XXX (e.g. being the absolute bottom of your class, going to the carribeans, etc..) doesn't matter, just score a >250 on the Step I, and you'll be fine in becoming a dermaneuroplastic surgeon

I'll tell you right now you have to bust your *** just to get a 240

 

[Falconclaw]

Not sure if I agree with this. A LOT of doctors and "rich white people" now-a-days are telling their kids to not go into medicine. "Rich white people" are hooking their kids up with business internships/jobs. Accounting and i-banking is where that "class" goes (if you want to generalize and conspire).

AMCAS gives free application waivers to those in need. There were numerous schools I interviewed at this year that partially or fully reimbursed students for travel if they were in need. If one applies to schools in an area they have ties to (generally what people do regardless of socio-economic status), there are so many ways to make the interview process reasonably priced. Take buses instead of planes, send in-the-area emails, be frugal.

You are applying for the opportunity to pay 130-250k in tuition... Everyone should consider the 2-3k for applications/interviewing as a part of tuition (if you are a strong applicant). The cost of applying should not be a deterrent to anyone willing to go hundreds of thousands in the hole to attend. When you get in, pay off the interview/application credit cards with a small part of the student loans you receive and live in a slightly cheaper apartment. That's what I am doing. That's what a few of my friends are doing. Better yet, take a year off and save some money/ improve your application.

You might be right about investment banking, but not about accounting. The average salary for an accountant is about a third of the average salary of a physician.

On the other hand, I do agree that most people in medical school do not come from a "rich" background.

 

[deleted307836]

Hmm, so it's probably not really worth it for someone who's not from Texas to apply to a Texas medical school?

Probably not unless you have family ties there. I believe Baylor accepts 25% OOS since it is semi-private.

 

[gmcguitar4]

Not sure if I agree with this. A LOT of doctors and "rich white people" now-a-days are telling their kids to not go into medicine. "Rich white people" are hooking their kids up with business internships/jobs. Accounting and i-banking is where that "class" goes (if you want to generalize and conspire).

AMCAS gives free application waivers to those in need. There were numerous schools I interviewed at this year that partially or fully reimbursed students for travel if they were in need. If one applies to schools in an area they have ties to (generally what people do regardless of socio-economic status), there are so many ways to make the interview process reasonably priced. Take buses instead of planes, send in-the-area emails, be frugal.

You are applying for the opportunity to pay 130-250k in tuition... Everyone should consider the 2-3k for applications/interviewing as a part of tuition (if you are a strong applicant). The cost of applying should not be a deterrent to anyone willing to go hundreds of thousands in the hole to attend. When you get in, pay off the interview/application credit cards with a small part of the student loans you receive and live in a slightly cheaper apartment. That's what I am doing. That's what a few of my friends are doing. Better yet, take a year off and save some money/ improve your application.

For the 2013 calendar year, applicants whose 2012 total family income is 300 percent or less of the 2012 poverty level for their family size will be approved for fee assistance.
So if you live in your parents home and don't work for a year or are very poor you are eligible. This does not count for most applicants. But it only further proves my point that this process is very difficult. You have to save up for a year or two so you can apply to enough schools so that you have a decent shot. And if you don't get in...start saving again!

 

[sinombre]

Extremely important points. It's a process that unecessarily favors the wealthy. It could favor the wealthy a lot less by using Skype or other technology for interviews and decreasing application costs for all but the wealthiest applicants, but rich white people largely run the show and have an interest in preserving the edge their children enjoy.

Well, sort of. I've probably posted the same thing a thousand times, but you don't need to have any money to apply to medical school. I applied as a poor and financially independent person who didn't qualify for FAP, and I paid for literally everything with credit cards (I spent between 5 and 6k total). I'll pay the debt off with student loans once school starts, because the interest rates are much lower than on the cards I used to pay for my application cycle.

 

[mspeedwagon]

Getting into medical school is difficult, but far from impossible. I actually don't know a single person that hasn't gotten in somewhere if they really wanted to be a doctor.

I do know several folks that have tried two, three and one that tried for four cycles, they all got in (to US schools). One person went to the Caribbean after not getting in her first cycle and regrets that decision (even though she is now practicing in NY). She said it really limited her when applying to residencies.

AVOID DOING THESE THINGS AND YOU WILL GET IN: http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2012/02/6-reasons-applicants-fail-medical-school.html

And, I laughed about the assumption that someone will have a 34 (I made the assumption that I would get at least a 32 by the time I applied and boy did I underestimate the MCAT).

 

[alerk323]

Lot's of n=1 anecdotal "I got in and have no money" stories. No ones doubting that it's doable, but the truth it is significantly more difficult. You also can't consider the 5-6 thousand dollars you spend on applications part of your tuition because there's a chance you don't even get in. It's difficult to stare at a wasted 5-6 thousand dollars even for more affluent individuals. It's also not taking into account all the other factors that make the process easier, all of which favor students from wealthier families (private undergrad educations, test prep courses, supportive family environment).

 

[sinombre]

Lot's of n=1 anecdotal "I got in and have no money" stories. No ones doubting that it's doable, but the truth it is significantly more difficult. You also can't consider the 5-6 thousand dollars you spend on applications part of your tuition because there's a chance you don't even get in. It's difficult to stare at a wasted 5-6 thousand dollars even for more affluent individuals. It's also not taking into account all the other factors that make the process easier, all of which favor students from wealthier families (private undergrad educations, test prep courses, supportive family environment).

Definitely, and very good points. I just wanted to point out that it's still possible to apply without actually having the money (or the parents with money) to do so.

 

[Sabate]

Based on what I've observed, the overwhelming majority of weedout happens before the actual application process, so a 47% total acceptance rate (or whatever it is nationally) makes it seem a lot easier than it actually is. For example, at my undergrad there were some 200 freshman on the premed track, but by senior year there were about 40, I'm not sure how many took the MCAT. 10 students actually applied to MD schools this year, 6 got in, so the school boasts a 60% acceptance rate, even though only 3% of the students that started off as "pre-med entry" got in.

This was my experience as well. Going from wanting to be a doctor to being accepted to (any) school is a huge weeding process. The 47% acceptance rate is hugely skewed due to the number of people that drop out much earlier. Folks that actually do the AMCAS either seriously believe they have a good chance of getting in and more than half of them don't get in to any schools. That's a lot of folks chucking 5-6k down the drain. Applications/secondaries/interviews left me broke enough that I doubt I'd be able to apply this year if I hadn't gotten in. It's incorrect to lump the cost of applying in with tuition as you can't take out an easy to get academic loan for application fees. There are plenty of folks who are above the cut off for fee waivers who don't have an extra 5-6k in the bank...

 

[survivordo]

I think getting into medical school is difficult because you have to be the total package - the GPA, the MCAT, the LORs, the ECs... you need to bring it all to the table to stand a good chance and unfortunately many people can never get it quite right. . The hardest is the GPA, if you have a 2.9 and all of a sudden decide you are going to go to medical school you are really going to struggle to get it up to acceptable ranges. The MCAT is another barrier but I think almost anyone can do significantly well to get in if they really put their mind to it.

Survivor DO

 

[alpinism]

this really. There have been sooooo many people weeded out before you even start applying. I remember my first year undergrad bio class >70% of the class thought about being a physician. Just reaching that point can be a lot of work, and then it's another half that don't get in, effectively putting them in Limbo.

I also think reading SDN you have a false sense of how difficult some of these exams are. >36 MCAT almost seems like cake-walk since the people who score high tend to show their scores.

This also applies to step I scores. The way even Pre-meds post XXX (e.g. being the absolute bottom of your class, going to the carribeans, etc..) doesn't matter, just score a >250 on the Step I, and you'll be fine in becoming a dermaneuroplastic surgeon

I'll tell you right now you have to bust your *** just to get a 240

This.

At your average state school:

2000 freshman premed science majors
600 sophomore premeds after Gen Bio1/2 and Gen Chem 1/2
200 junior premeds after Orgo 1/2
100 senior premeds get a 27+ MCAT and apply
47% of those get accepted on their 1st try.

 

[circulus vitios]

34 MCAT score (I don't have either of these, but if I had to estimate what I would have at the time of application, it would probably be around this)

lol

 

[Bluto385]

This.

At your average state school:

2000 freshman premed science majors
600 sophomore premeds after Gen Bio1/2 and Gen Chem 1/2
200 junior premeds after Orgo 1/2
100 senior premeds get a 27+ MCAT and apply
47% of those get accepted on their 1st try.

The prospect of pursuing pre-med when so many other freshmen were piping the same goal was so disheartening that I completely second guessed my self-confidence. It wasn't until my dermatologist encouraged me to pursue what I was truly passionate about and say "**** you" to the competition that I decided to stop worrying about what other people were doing and just go for it. Sure enough, people dropped like flies at every turn along, and here I still stand today. Glad I took his advice.

 

[Arbor Vitae]

lol

this

 

[Falconclaw]

This was my experience as well. Going from wanting to be a doctor to being accepted to (any) school is a huge weeding process. The 47% acceptance rate is hugely skewed due to the number of people that drop out much earlier. Folks that actually do the AMCAS either seriously believe they have a good chance of getting in and more than half of them don't get in to any schools. That's a lot of folks chucking 5-6k down the drain. Applications/secondaries/interviews left me broke enough that I doubt I'd be able to apply this year if I hadn't gotten in. It's incorrect to lump the cost of applying in with tuition as you can't take out an easy to get academic loan for application fees. There are plenty of folks who are above the cut off for fee waivers who don't have an extra 5-6k in the bank...

Okay, so I'll ask something that will make people laugh even more at my MCAT score prediction. What does LOR stand for?

At least I'm not bragging about driving a Porsche, like that other thread.

 

[LizzyM]

Okay, so I'll ask something that will make people laugh even more at my MCAT score prediction. What does LOR stand for?

At least I'm not bragging about driving a Porsche, like that other thread.

Letter of Recommendation

 

[Arbor Vitae]

Okay, so I'll ask something that will make people laugh even more at my MCAT score prediction. What does LOR stand for?

At least I'm not bragging about driving a Porsche, like that other thread.

LOR = letter of recommendation

II = interview invite

OOS = out of state

IS = in state

just some of the acronyms you'll get used to over the app cycle

 

[MTHFR]

this

This.

 

[Falconclaw]

LOR = letter of recommendation

II = interview invite

OOS = out of state

IS = in state

just some of the acronyms you'll get used to over the app cycle

Ah gotcha. Thanks!

 

[SoulinNeed]

After going through the process, and actually getting accepted, I actually have to say that it's harder than I thought it would be, honestly. What's scary about the whole thing is just how random it can be. I know people who have great stats who couldn't get into but a few schools, simply because their interview skills aren't all that great.

 

[earf]

LOR = letter of recommendation

II = interview invite

OOS = out of state

IS = in state

just some of the acronyms you'll get used to over the app cycle

It makes me cringe when people use II as an "acronym" for secondary applications...

 

[Benedictus123]

At least I'm not bragging about driving a Porsche, like that other thread.

Hey. That guy was just giving us some advice. About women. Or something.

Really, the important thing here is the car.

And while LOR is letter of recommendation, it really SHOULD mean something cooler.

 

[OCDOCDOCD]

This was my experience as well. Going from wanting to be a doctor to being accepted to (any) school is a huge weeding process. The 47% acceptance rate is hugely skewed due to the number of people that drop out much earlier. Folks that actually do the AMCAS either seriously believe they have a good chance of getting in and more than half of them don't get in to any schools. That's a lot of folks chucking 5-6k down the drain. Applications/secondaries/interviews left me broke enough that I doubt I'd be able to apply this year if I hadn't gotten in. It's incorrect to lump the cost of applying in with tuition as you can't take out an easy to get academic loan for application fees. There are plenty of folks who are above the cut off for fee waivers who don't have an extra 5-6k in the bank...

I don't know how sure to be about that. I think a lot of people apply out of desperation, or apply knowing they're weak applicants. Even more probably apply being unaware of just how weak their application is.

If you look at AAMC data, the mean MCAT is 28 with an SD of 5.5, meaning half of people applying to allopathic medical schools have less than a 28, 34% have a score between 23 and 28, and 13.6% have a score between 17 and 22. Looking at GPA, the mean is 3.54 with an SD of .34 which means half of applicants applied with less than a 3.54 GPA and 13.6% applied with a GPA of 2.86 to 3.2.

I think it's safe to say that the majority of the 53% who get rejected each year fall into that 50% of applicants applying with GPAs less than 3.5 and MCATs less than 28. Obviously you still see acceptances and rejections from most ranges of MCAT and GPA, but at a certain point those become the exception rather than the norm. For the recommended GPA/MCAT combo of 3.7 and 31, the acceptance rate is 70%. The rejected 30% can likely be explained as lacking ECs, late applications, and other major issues.

I think people (especially SDN) overhype the difficulty of med school admissions quite considerably. As long as you got mostly A's in college, got a 30+ MCAT, and have some clinical and research experience (you do not need anything close to 500+ hours), you'll very likely get in somewhere.

 

[Falconclaw]

I don't know how sure to be about that. I think a lot of people apply out of desperation, or apply knowing they're weak applicants. Even more probably apply being unaware of just how weak their application is.

If you look at AAMC data, the mean MCAT is 28 with an SD of 5.5, meaning half of people applying to allopathic medical schools have less than a 28, 34% have a score between 23 and 28, and 13.6% have a score between 17 and 22. Looking at GPA, the mean is 3.54 with an SD of .34 which means half of applicants applied with less than a 3.54 GPA and 13.6% applied with a GPA of 2.86 to 3.2.

I think it's safe to say that the majority of the 53% who get rejected each year fall into that 50% of applicants applying with GPAs less than 3.5 and MCATs less than 28. Obviously you still see acceptances and rejections from most ranges of MCAT and GPA, but at a certain point those become the exception rather than the norm. For the recommended GPA/MCAT combo of 3.7 and 31, the acceptance rate is 70%. The rejected 30% can likely be explained as lacking ECs, late applications, and other major issues.

I think people (especially SDN) overhype the difficulty of med school admissions quite considerably. As long as you got mostly A's in college, got a 30+ MCAT, and have some clinical and research experience (you do not need anything close to 500+ hours), you'll very likely get in somewhere.

Do I absolutely need the research experience? Would volunteering at a hospital and shadowing doctors be insufficient on its own?

 

[Arbor Vitae]

Do I absolutely need the research experience? Would volunteering at a hospital and shadowing doctors be insufficient on its own?

no, clinical experience is more important, but it will be a chink in the armor they will pry at during interviews.

 

[Mt Kilimanjaro]

If you look at AAMC data, the mean MCAT is 28 with an SD of 5.5, meaning half of people applying to allopathic medical schools have less than a 28, 34% have a score between 23 and 28, and 13.6% have a score between 17 and 22. Looking at GPA, the mean is 3.54 with an SD of .34 which means half of applicants applied with less than a 3.54 GPA and 13.6% applied with a GPA of 2.86 to 3.2.

This is a good point. But what to make of the ~20% of people with strong numbers (3.75+, 32+) who don't get accepted anywhere? Can you assume they have zero clinical experience or only applied to the top five schools or just got really unlucky?

I wish AAMC would release a report similar to the NRMP matching report that lists the average number of schools applied to and other data for successful applicants. I actually asked them for the average # of schools data and they said they don't have it. Obviously they do, but they win (to the tune of $33 per school) when people over-apply.

 

[Sabate]

I don't know how sure to be about that. I think a lot of people apply out of desperation, or apply knowing they're weak applicants. Even more probably apply being unaware of just how weak their application is.

If you look at AAMC data, the mean MCAT is 28 with an SD of 5.5, meaning half of people applying to allopathic medical schools have less than a 28, 34% have a score between 23 and 28, and 13.6% have a score between 17 and 22. Looking at GPA, the mean is 3.54 with an SD of .34 which means half of applicants applied with less than a 3.54 GPA and 13.6% applied with a GPA of 2.86 to 3.2.

I think it's safe to say that the majority of the 53% who get rejected each year fall into that 50% of applicants applying with GPAs less than 3.5 and MCATs less than 28. Obviously you still see acceptances and rejections from most ranges of MCAT and GPA, but at a certain point those become the exception rather than the norm. For the recommended GPA/MCAT combo of 3.7 and 31, the acceptance rate is 70%. The rejected 30% can likely be explained as lacking ECs, late applications, and other major issues.

I think people (especially SDN) overhype the difficulty of med school admissions quite considerably. As long as you got mostly A's in college, got a 30+ MCAT, and have some clinical and research experience (you do not need anything close to 500+ hours), you'll very likely get in somewhere.

Good points for sure. I just meant that they think they have a good chance. Self-delusion is a strong force! It'd be interesting to see how folks with lower stats are applying to schools as well. Its just as easy to be completely rejected if you shoot super high with decent stats as it is to be rejected with low stats applying to any and all MD programs.

 

[Arbor Vitae]

Good points for sure. I just meant that they think they have a good chance. Self-delusion is a strong force! It'd be interesting to see how folks with lower stats are applying to schools as well. Its just as easy to be completely rejected if you shoot super high with decent stats as it is to be rejected with low stats applying to any and all MD programs.

The protip secret for low stat / average people is to submit your AMCAS primary the day it opens and to apply to as many schools as you can. You have to look at it like placing bets and play the odds. If you increase the number of bets you make, you increase the odds of 1 bet paying out. You can also look at which schools you have the best odds of being accepted at. You seriously need to apply to a decent amount of schools that you have a good shot of being accepted at. Look for schools that have high percentage of out of state matriculants and median MCAT/GPA close to yours. Apply to state schools. Play every card you can but don't exaggerate or you will piss people off. Sell yourself. Tell an interesting autobiography. You will need roughly $3000 - $6000 dollars for the application process by the way, for primaries, secondaries, airfare, hotels, carfare, food, etc... Even with FAP I spent around $3k. Without FAP probably another $1000 for secondaries.

 

[Falconclaw]

The protip secret for low stat / average people is to submit your AMCAS primary the day it opens and to apply to as many schools as you can. You have to look at it like placing bets and play the odds. If you increase the number of bets you make, you increase the odds of 1 bet paying out. You can also look at which schools you have the best odds of being accepted at. You seriously need to apply to 30+ schools that you have a good shot of being accepted at. Look for schools that have high percentage of out of state matriculants and median MCAT/GPA close to yours. Apply to state schools. Play every card you can but don't exaggerate or you will piss people off. Sell yourself. Tell an interesting autobiography. You will need roughly $3000 - $6000 dollars for the application process by the way, for primaries, secondaries, airfare, hotels, carfare, food, etc... Even with FAP I spent around $3k. Without FAP probably another $1000 for secondaries.

30+ schools? Isn't that just a little crazy? Is more than 15 really necessary?