is the first year of med school a weed-out year?

[inthesunshine]

I am currently in a gap year and will be applying to medical school next cycle. I am competitive for my state's top MD but friends that go there now said a lot of students failed out their first year. Apparently they admit a bunch of students who they expect to fail and they do which means they are made to repeat their first year. It sounds like about 25 students fail and they admit 186 each year.

My friends say they did ok and that the p/f grades make things easier but I'm worried. I'm not a great test taker. They don't know for sure that many failed out but they say the test proctors were talking about testing space next year because like 25 students were being made to repeat their first year.

Is this common for MD schools to use their first year to weed students out or make them re-do their first year?

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[deleted1163682]

Most competition ends after you get into medical school, especially for the top schools with P/F curriculums. The only score that really matters is Step 2, you just gotta pass the rest.

 

[SpoiledMilk]

No

 

[pierty]

I am currently in a gap year and will be applying to medical school next cycle. I am competitive for my state's top MD but friends that go there now said a lot of students failed out their first year. Apparently they admit a bunch of students who they expect to fail and they do which means they are made to repeat their first year. It sounds like about 25 students fail and they admit 186 each year.

My friends say they did ok and that the p/f grades make things easier but I'm worried. I'm not a great test taker. They don't know for sure that many failed out but they say the test proctors were talking about testing space next year because like 25 students were being made to repeat their first year.

Is this common for MD schools to use their first year to weed students out or make them re-do their first year?

This sounds like a pre-med horror story. While I have heard of this happening at some Caribbean schools, it would be extremely strange for this to happen at any US MD school.

 

[inthesunshine]

It's so scary! These are my friends though and I believe them. They just finished first year and one had to retake a test this past week. They said there were a ton of students in the testing room retaking the finals from spring courses. They told me to seriously consider the other state school because this year was so stressful. It's not as highly rated but I had to take the MCAT a couple of times so IDK I just worry that they plan for people to fail and repeat. I have an MCAT and GPA that are slightly above the average for the school so maybe i would be ok.

 

[pierty]

If 15% of a school's M1 class needs to retake their exams, the school's office of medical education is not doing something right. That being said, if their test policy is to allow retakes without significant repercussion (i.e., dismissal or marks on transcripts), it falls more in line with most MD school's policies.

You haven't applied yet, so I wouldn't worry about this. When the time comes to decide between schools, if this is one of your options, you will have more information at that point to decide.

 

[gyngyn]

Nobody is "weeded out" in a US medical school.
Every effort will be made to retain all students.

 

[inthesunshine]

If 15% of a school's M1 class needs to retake their exams, the school's office of medical education is not doing something right. That being said, if their test policy is to allow retakes without significant repercussion (i.e., dismissal or marks on transcripts), it falls more in line with most MD school's policies.

You haven't applied yet, so I wouldn't worry about this. When the time comes to decide between schools, if this is one of your options, you will have more information at that point to decide.

somewhere around 15% are being made to repeat first year while others could retake exams. i think it depends on how many failing exams you had that semester.

@gyngyn thanks for the reassurance. i just don't want to be at a school where the retention plan is repeating a year

 

[Angus Avagadro]

If a student fails out, then the school loses 3 yrs of tuition. Most established med schools have about a 5% dismissal rate, and most are not from academics, but from family or mental health issues. Any school that has a higher attrition rate should get some extra due diligence before attending. Face it, the student is the school's product and it is in their best interest to produce the best product.

 

[inthesunshine]

If a student fails out, then the school loses 3 yrs of tuition. Most established med schools have about a 5% dismissal rate, and most are not from academics, but from family or mental health issues. Any school that has a higher attrition rate should get some extra due diligence before attending. Face it, the student is the school's product and it is in their best interest to produce the best product.

This makes sense about the 3 years of tuition. I don't know how many fail out. I guess I was thinking that if 25 students have to repeat first year, the school is trying to get some to leave because they couldn't pay five years of tuition. I am still worried about the fact that they seem to expect that 15% of the class will have to repeat and take five years to graduate instead of four. guess that helps with revenue too

How do you find dismissal rate?

 

[Goro]

I am currently in a gap year and will be applying to medical school next cycle. I am competitive for my state's top MD but friends that go there now said a lot of students failed out their first year. Apparently they admit a bunch of students who they expect to fail and they do which means they are made to repeat their first year. It sounds like about 25 students fail and they admit 186 each year.

My friends say they did ok and that the p/f grades make things easier but I'm worried. I'm not a great test taker. They don't know for sure that many failed out but they say the test proctors were talking about testing space next year because like 25 students were being made to repeat their first year.

Is this common for MD schools to use their first year to weed students out or make them re-do their first year?

If anything, it's harder to get out of medical school then into it. Meaning, that medical schools in the United States not the caribbean, will do everything in their power to get you to graduation.

I wonder if your friends are trying to scare you?

 

[lacrossegirl420]

No that’s more of a pre-med thing

 

[bob12364747474]

Is this bcm? 186 was their class size until this past year

 

[randommedstudent24]

This makes sense about the 3 years of tuition. I don't know how many fail out. I guess I was thinking that if 25 students have to repeat first year, the school is trying to get some to leave because they couldn't pay five years of tuition. I am still worried about the fact that they seem to expect that 15% of the class will have to repeat and take five years to graduate instead of four. guess that helps with revenue too

How do you find dismissal rate?

It also looks bad on the school if lots of students graduate in more than 5 years. 5 years is kinda ok because students sometimes take a research year, or do a teaching fellowship, but loads of students taking 5+ years to graduate could trigger an accreditation board visit, which no school wants to deal with. Attrition is bad.

 

[LunaOri]

Med school does not have a “weed-out” year. The application process has already chosen students we believe can succeed, so we make every effort to make sure they advance. It’s common to repeat an exam, but rare to repeat an entire year.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Given the amount of formative testing that happens in health professional schools on a weekly or biweekly basis, this is not weed out culture where students sink or swim without help. I don't know what the issue is at the school in question, but that is not ideal or normal.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

This makes sense about the 3 years of tuition. I don't know how many fail out. I guess I was thinking that if 25 students have to repeat first year, the school is trying to get some to leave because they couldn't pay five years of tuition. I am still worried about the fact that they seem to expect that 15% of the class will have to repeat and take five years to graduate instead of four. guess that helps with revenue too

How do you find dismissal rate?

First repeating is not dismissal. Dismissal statistics are hard to determine as many are lumped into not graduating on time. That may be due to a pregnancy, family death or medical crisis, leave of absence due to student needing to get an underlying medical issue under control, etc. My former school had an estimated 2 -5% dismissal rate for academics. I will emphasize once again, the student is OUR product and their success is our success. My school provided learning resources, tutors, and an upperclassmen mentor,(Big, as in fraternity/sorority vernacular ). If you are smart enough to get in, then the vast majority stay in and graduate. It might take an extra year, but you graduate with a medical degree.

 

[bubbagump20]

Not that it answers your question, but the 1st year of med school in France is very much a weed-out year. In France, they accept almost everyone but only students with top rankings advance to the next year.

 

[2024 or 5 ?]

No.Getting is the weed out part.

 

[gonnif]

Everything, I mean everything, that can somehow be a datapoint for a student from premed thru medical student into residency, board certification, practice, etc is gathered, surveyed, analyzed, and reported.

https://www.aamc.org/media/48526/download#:~:text=The%20four%2Dyear%20graduation%20rate,students%20in%20combined%20degree%20programs.

The four year graduation rate for over the past 20 years is 81%-84% rising to 96% over 6 years and inching to 97% in 7 years. The majority of these delays are due to non academic reasons such as family leave, research or other projects, etc.

From 1996-97 until 2016-2017 the attrition rate from allopathic medical schools remained stable at 3.2% with the majority of those leaving for non-academic reasons. Therefore 1.5% or less of students who begin medical will ultimately fail out due to academic performance. Overall nearly 97% who begin allopathic medical school will earn their MD degree, Osteopathic numbers are very similar to the above

As for the OPs statement that 25 of 186 students Or 13% of a class “fail out” or are required to repeat first year it is not a weedout. In fact, it is quite the opposite. Medical schools want to have their students graduate. Since medical schools live by their reputation for residency placement, and live by the graduation rate for re-accreditation by the LCME, they will give all matriculated student almost every opportunity to repair weak academic performance. In the 1960s through the 1980s many schools required the bottom quarter of their first year classes to sit through summer school after first year to make sure they were up to speed. That usually is no longer possible with scheduling.
However, in this day and age, I cannot imagine any medical school with more than a 10% academic first year, repeat rate not to have a huge red flag over it from the LCME. However, it would not surprise me that that half or more of these alleged repeat students are those who voluntarily withdrew unable to make the first year adjustment successfully. This may not simply be due to academic concerns, but also family/living/logistics of life. Some schools are, shall we say, aggressive and pushing low performing students to voluntarily withdraw as this, then, does not show up as an academic failure.

from personal experience, I would often hear from my acceptees the first few weeks of medical school calling in a panic that they are in over their heads. A dean I spoke to some years ago told me his rule of thumb is that at least half the class will come to him at some point and say they can’t hack it, it’s too much. by the way, the same thing happens when people start residency. I have two former students call me this season and both essentially saying they learn nothing in medical school and they are frauds.

 

[jhmmd]

I am currently in a gap year and will be applying to medical school next cycle. I am competitive for my state's top MD but friends that go there now said a lot of students failed out their first year. Apparently they admit a bunch of students who they expect to fail and they do which means they are made to repeat their first year. It sounds like about 25 students fail and they admit 186 each year.

My friends say they did ok and that the p/f grades make things easier but I'm worried. I'm not a great test taker. They don't know for sure that many failed out but they say the test proctors were talking about testing space next year because like 25 students were being made to repeat their first year.

Is this common for MD schools to use their first year to weed students out or make them re-do their first year?

The entire process weeds people out. It's a question of when you want to start/stop the clock:
1) Pre-med?
2) Med school?
3) Residency?
4) Even attendings with damaged reputations can lose business, etc. It is a marathon, not a sprint. Your end goal should not be "getting through med school." I have heard that many schools never went P/F, btw. If you are looking for sympathy, you are barking up the wrong tree! Even the most laid-back med students have learned to fight like wolves for their seats.

This reply got a little off-topic but the point is that doctors are lifelong learners. Attendings are supposed to keep up on the latest studies. Don't go into this profession thinking about the next test or quiz, etc.

 

[deleted1056062]

but I'm worried. I'm not a great test taker

Hi OP. I wish the absolute best for you, but I'm worried that the extremely common excuse of "I'm not a great test taker" is just not going to hold up in medical school. Medical school is literally non-stop exams, many of which are standardized tests.

 

[ese2]

186 and top MD in the state.. Is this Baylor? I haven't heard any attrition issues about this school.

 

[Goro]

I have heard that many schools never went P/F, btw.

Most med schools are P/F nowadays, actually.

 

[inthesunshine]

So much good info @gonnif I appreciate the different way to look at this. I do feel confident that my friends are correct in the number of students repeating but I do not know why. I assumed it was academic failing and went right to my worries about being good enough.

In all reality they are telling to look harder at the other MD school in my state. They wish they had even if it’s not as highly rated. I’m in a small state and we have friends at both schools because they both are supposed to admit mostly in state students. The other school just seems to be a better academic environment and students feel more supported by admin.

That was really what I was asking as I think about this. Should I expect big repeat rates everywhere or is this a school specific thing. It seems like the consensus is perhaps and the devil is in the details. If I want medicine as a career then I need to be confident. Working on that but it’s hard to not let pre med doubt creep in.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Not trying to be dismissive, but M1 is often the first exposure to adulting for many students and this may add to stresses. If you are smart enough to get in, you are smart enough to stay in. I was often surprised when a student would complain about not getting an A after they " studied hard and when they study hard, they always get an A" True story. Just remember med students are all very smart, many REALLY smart. Getting a B or a C is not a bad grade within that population. If your grades aren't where you want them, see the school resource center and get some advice. Just don't wait too long as the deluge of information keeps flowing. 1st semester MS1 is a big adjustment for the majority of students. Keep your head down, put the time in and you'll fine. Good luck and best wishes!

 

[gonnif]

To add to @angus Avagado comments, I have encountered many “smart” students who have “powered” their way through undergrad in short term manner. That is they have the brain power to get through one or two tough courses a term as well as do well in the other courses. They don’t necessarily develop the long-term skills and discipline to master the amount of high-level, difficult, intensive, coursework that is primarily the first years of medical school. The analogy for this which I’m sure most premeds have seen or experienced are those people who come from high school with good grades and are thrown into a college environment with much more difficult stuff and expectations are high. I cannot tell you the number of times that I have had successful advisees who call me early in the first year of medical school feeling overwhelmed, they’re not good enough, or something similar.

 

[DarkBluMage]

I am currently in a gap year and will be applying to medical school next cycle. I am competitive for my state's top MD but friends that go there now said a lot of students failed out their first year. Apparently they admit a bunch of students who they expect to fail and they do which means they are made to repeat their first year. It sounds like about 25 students fail and they admit 186 each year.

My friends say they did ok and that the p/f grades make things easier but I'm worried. I'm not a great test taker. They don't know for sure that many failed out but they say the test proctors were talking about testing space next year because like 25 students were being made to repeat their first year.

Is this common for MD schools to use their first year to weed students out or make them re-do their first year?

No. Med school is just hard and there’s little room for error. For example our units only have 1 exam. Fail that exam and you can remediate it, but fail the remediation and you either get dismissed from school or repeat the year. It’s nothing like undergrad. I’ve lost several classmates that failed out. It’s real out here

 

[Isoval]

There is no such thing as a weed-out class or year in medical school.

Once you get in, the school is devoted to helping you succeed. Extra tutoring, out-of-class help by faculty, you name it.

It is never in a schools best interest to get rid of you unless you’re in the caribbean.