Is the licensure process for foreign trained dentist in USA out of touch?

[basher]

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What was supposed to be a pass program for licensure is now the obstacle!
I would like to know after I passed successfully the qualification exams, what have I qualified for?
Summary of my situation:
As a foreign trained dentist proud US citizen; to fulfill the requirements for the dental Licensure process, I passed successfully the qualification exams (National Dental Board part 1 and 2 ,English test Toefl, etc…) prerequisite for admission to a dental school for a two year International dentist program, to my surprise I was not selected to the programs I applied to for the third consecutive year although I fulfilled the dental schools requirements; I asked for the reason why I was not selected, what I understand they said that the program is highly competitive out of hundreds of applicants they are selecting few each year!.
I think this is unfair,immoral and unjust. Absolutly, I am finding the qualification process for foreign-trained dentists quite daunting, especially that I passed the qualification exams from the first attempt in all subjects and I have sixteen years of dental experience!
What am I suppose to do more?

 

[dentheartthrob]

may you please post your stats, it would help out alot if you did.

 

[C2H5OH]

I understand your frustration, but having 16 years of experience as a dentist, you should have thought earlier whether coming to the US is worth the possibility of giving up your profession.

For this reason, if I'm to immigrate one day from my home country, it won't be to the US, but rather to Australia or New Zealand, which are both english speaking countries, very well developed and civilized, and requiring you to pass a couple of examinations to get a license.

 

[rarm1]

Sorry for your problems, but as you were told the programs are very competative and hard to get into... each school has its own selection process and the exams only add information... and they look at grades not just passing

with the difficult and delays, i often recommend applying to the 4 year program... you generally get in immediately... in your case it would have been in and finished in 4 years...earning money sooner... now... 3 years wasted plus at least 2 years of school(some are 3)... 5 years...

The schools also look at what you did after you graduated... did you practice? how long? where did you graduate?

Many countries expect 1-3 years of post graduate studies after dental school.. I have seen some come to US before completing this.

Good Luck in applying,,, ask what may help you get in... check other schools,
see if a 4 year program is for you

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

For this reason, if I'm to immigrate one day from my home country, it won't be to the US, but rather to Australia or New Zealand, which are both english speaking countries, very well developed and civilized, and requiring you to pass a couple of examinations to get a license.

Passing the ADC exams are no easy feat either. Don't fool yourself into thinking its any easier here than the US. We also have a 2-year advance standing program for international dentists as well, most of which go to Adelaide University. 👍

http://www.health.adelaide.edu.au/dentistry/programs/bridging_program/

Certification/licensure of internationally trained dentists is pretty much standard between the US, Canada, and Australia.

 

[basher]

My board scores; NBDE part 1: 80, part2: 78, Toefl: 89.
What I understand when someone pass an exam he moves to the next step or next level, he doesn't stuck in the same place as if he had achieved nothing or failed the exams, it's not fair ( something here is wrong ).
I contacted the ADA (American Dental Association) regarding my situation, and they replied: "I certainly understand your frustration and I sympathize with your situation. As you stated, though, there are limited numbers of positions available in the dental schools for the very large number of internationally trained dentists who seek entry. The same is true for dental school in general and there is three times the number of applicants as there are open positions for the first year of dental school".
Exactly this is the myth point; I believe there is more than ten times the number of applicants as there are open positions for the International dentist program otherwise what does it mean to have four hundred eighty five applicants for an international dentist program for ten positions?, and also there is a big difference, I don't even dare to compare, between a student who is planning to become a dentist and hasn't been yet and a foreign trained dentist who is already a dentist with a big dental experience. The first one has a plenty of choices if he didn't pass the DAT (dental admission test) exam or if he passed it but was not selected by a dental school, he can find a job with his degree or go for a master degree in his major and he'll be fine and have a normal life, which is not the case of the foreign trained dentist US citizen who doesn't have any other option beside using his dental skills to work and survive in his own country knowing that he passed successfully the qualification exams doing his part of the Licensure process.

 

[welle]

I know how hard it is to pass these exams, but still passing is not the way to get into DDS program. Scores are very imp in the decision process(specially part 1)

I think you should either retake part1 ,or start considering some other options beside DDS like AEGD /GBR. You might be a strong candidate specially with your long experience. GOOD LUCK

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

My board scores; NBDE part 1: 80, part2: 78, Toefl: 89.
What I understand when someone pass an exam he moves to the next step or next level, he doesn't stuck in the same place as if he had achieved nothing or failed the exams, it's not fair ( something here is wrong ).
I contacted the ADA (American Dental Association) regarding my situation, and they replied: "I certainly understand your frustration and I sympathize with your situation. As you stated, though, there are limited numbers of positions available in the dental schools for the very large number of internationally trained dentists who seek entry. The same is true for dental school in general and there is three times the number of applicants as there are open positions for the first year of dental school".
Exactly this is the myth point; I believe there is more than ten times the number of applicants as there are open positions for the International dentist program otherwise what does it mean to have four hundred eighty five applicants for an international dentist program for ten positions?, and also there is a big difference, I don't even dare to compare, between a student who is planning to become a dentist and hasn't been yet and a foreign trained dentist who is already a dentist with a big dental experience. The first one has a plenty of choices if he didn't pass the DAT (dental admission test) exam or if he passed it but was not selected by a dental school, he can find a job with his degree or go for a master degree in his major and he'll be fine and have a normal life, which is not the case of the foreign trained dentist US citizen who doesn't have any other option beside using his dental skills to work and survive in his own country knowing that he passed successfully the qualification exams doing his part of the Licensure process.

I agree with Welle,

Put yourself in the shoes of the admissions panel, if there are 485 applicants for 10 positions (as you've stated).. and 80% have NDBE scores that are in the high (80s-90s) and you have scores in the high 70s to low 80s... then are you really that surprised that you didn't get in?
Instead of complaining about it, maybe you should focus that energy into retaking the NDBE and doing better this time.... Doing this should give you a better chance of getting in next year.

or.. as welle has suggested you could consider applying for a GPR or AEGD program, or maybe perio or pros. Goodluck! 👍

 

[basher]

I know how hard it is to pass these exams, but still passing is not the way to get into DDS program. Scores are very imp in the decision process(specially part 1)

I think you should either retake part1 ,or start considering some other options beside DDS like AEGD /GBR. You might be a strong candidate specially with your long experience. GOOD LUCK

There is an article published by the Journal of Dental Education, http://www.jdentaled.org/cgi/content.full/69/2/270
Title: Predicting Academic Performance and Clinical Competency for International Dental Students…
The study concluded that:
In a search for the most efficient and effective collection of measures for the admission of international students, the following conclusions is supported by the current study:

1. National Board Part II is the most significant predictor of academic performance and clinical competency, and its inclusion at the beginning of the admission process is crucial.
2. Dexterity was a significant predictor of academic performance and clinical competency. Even though the developed tests may be messy, time-consuming, and unstandardized, their inclusion provided additional predictive significance.
3. National Board Part I added little predictive assistance of academic performance and clinical competency if National Board Part II was included. Even though National Board Part I is administered before National Board Part II, its inclusion is not as critical to the selection process and should not replace National Board Part II.
4. TOEFL added no additional significant help to the prediction of academic performance and clinical competency. National Board Part I and/or National Board Part II appear to subsume what TOEFL adds; consequently, TOEFL could be eliminated without any loss of predictive clarity.
5. The faculty interview did not contribute to the prediction of academic performance and clinical competency of international students. The results of this study suggest that the interview requires a standardized format and or clarification of its purpose in the admissions process.
6. From a selection of measures, National Board Part II and dexterity scores were identified as the best predictors of academic performance and clinical competency for international students. While it is tempting to assume a greater number of measures would increase the accuracy of the predictions, that assumption is not supported by the data.

As long as the national dental student is getting his License with a passing score of 75% on the NBDE, I don't see how retaking a test you already passed (NDBE part 1) can help! I believe it's only a waist of time and energy, and who's responsible for this myth (either the ADA or the Dental schools or both) they should be held accountable for it, and have to compensate all of us who are in the same boat, because they are causing this hard, unjust situation.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

I don’t even dare to compare, between a student who is planning to become a dentist and hasn't been yet and a foreign trained dentist who is already a dentist with a big dental experience. The first one has a plenty of choices if he didn't pass the DAT (dental admission test) exam or if he passed it but was not selected by a dental school, he can find a job with his degree or go for a master degree in his major and he'll be fine and have a normal life, which is not the case of the foreign trained dentist US citizen who doesn't have any other option beside using his dental skills to work and survive in his own country knowing that he passed successfully the qualification exams doing his part of the Licensure process.[/COLOR].[/SIZE]..

You could try and apply for a lecture position in a dental school, that way you could use your education. The US is just as in need of dental academics as the rest of the world. 👍 By teaching and studying part time to retake the NDBE would be a very productive way to use your time. again, keep your head up and good luck!

 

[basher]

The quota of foreign-trained dentists who can become licensed has been limited to the dental school selection number since the year 2003 in California and before that date in most states. Previously, we foreign dental applicants were allowed to take the clinical board exam after we completed existing eligibility requirements and have passed Parts I and II of the National Dental Board Examiners written examination, and the Restorative Techniques (RT) examination. It use to be that the foreign trained dentist who passed the National Board Dental exams didn't need the qualification program, it was an option. Not anymore. Requirements for Licensure for foreign dentists have changed.
Since the qualifying programs became a must, the number of applicants is increasing every year, which leads that many foreign-trained dentists are retaking the eligibility exam (National dental board exams) and repeating the application process several times, even after scoring 89% on previous eligibility dental board exams, knowing that the passing score is 75%. They are doing this in order to increase their chances of acceptance to the two year program. . This is not the case for the National Dental Students who are required only to score 75% on the board exams. This would seem to indicate that they are not given the same opportunity and the requirements to qualify are much harder. It is discrimination. A US citizen internationally trained dentist who wants to practice must be given the same opportunity as fellow national dental students in this great nation.
"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against."

 

[NileBDS]

Basher, as a fellow foreign trained dentist, here is my advice to you:

Stop playing the victim, trying to find creative ways to sue US dental schools for discrimination. Here are some cold hard facts for you; dental school admissions is competitive, and there are many and many applicants out there with much more attractive numbers than your own.
Take control of your own destiny and do something about it.
Take real estate for example. If a real estate property becomes in high demand, the price goes up. If you want to buy that house, you go work HARDER and save some more money, not sit outside that property and sob because they won't sell it to you with the little money you have.

I say this in the most sincere way, although I know my advice sometimes may come across to many people as harsh. You have come a long way. Do not give up now.

 

[basher]

Basher, as a fellow foreign trained dentist, here is my advice to you:

Stop playing the victim, trying to find creative ways to sue US dental schools for discrimination. Here are some cold hard facts for you; dental school admissions is competitive, and there are many and many applicants out there with much more attractive numbers than your own.
Take control of your own destiny and do something about it.
Take real estate for example. If a real estate property becomes in high demand, the price goes up. If you want to buy that house, you go work HARDER and save some more money, not sit outside that property and sob because they won't sell it to you with the little money you have.

I say this in the most sincere way, although I know my advice sometimes may come across to many people as harsh. You have come a long way. Do not give up now.

I would like to thank you as a fellow trained dentist for your reply, what in your opinion am I suppose to do exactly regarding the situation?.
Responding to your comparison with real estate, I will give you if you don't mind my point of view, if someone tells you that you need 1,2,3 etc demands and the property will be your's, you go and work hard day and night, the harder you can, and you fullfil the requirments or demands and you get nothing. This is the hard part, what do you do then? this is the big question.😕
With all my respect.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

if someone tells you that you need 1,2,3 etc demands and the property will be your's, you go and work hard day and night, the harder you can, and you fullfil the requirments or demands and you get nothing.

Basher,

Please provide us with examples of any US dental school that states that "if you simply pass NBDE Part I + II and TOFEL then you are guaranteed automatically to gain admittance". I'm sorry if you misunderstood the requirements and process, but this is not the case.

What every dental school does say is: that if you complete 1,2,3.. then you may be "considered" for admission. Nothing is guaranteed. If there are 500 more applicants who also have 1,2,3 and have better scores, then obviously you won't be selected. Please take NileBDS advice to heart and work harder and try again. It is possible, just try and refocus your energy and do better next time. Again.. Good luck! 👍

 

[rarm1]

Basher, as a fellow foreign trained dentist, here is my advice to you:

Stop playing the victim, trying to find creative ways to sue US dental schools for discrimination. Here are some cold hard facts for you; dental school admissions is competitive, and there are many and many applicants out there with much more attractive numbers than your own.
Take control of your own destiny and do something about it.
Take real estate for example. If a real estate property becomes in high demand, the price goes up. If you want to buy that house, you go work HARDER and save some more money, not sit outside that property and sob because they won't sell it to you with the little money you have.

I say this in the most sincere way, although I know my advice sometimes may come across to many people as harsh. You have come a long way. Do not give up now.

I would back this statement.

Each country, each location has its own rules... Many can not move from one state to another without taking exams, more training.

Just because you graduated from somewhere(I don't recall you saying where)... its not an international permit to practice everyplace.

Exams are not entrance passes. They help the school decide who are best qualified. Your scores are passes... but low. 75 is passing... but many get in the 90s. Even for an americian student applying for an advanced program... many would not interview them with those scores.

Practicing dentistry is not a right it is a priveledge.. you must follow the regulations. From your comments here and complaints, i can imagine that these may have appeared on any interviews you may have taken. The interviews are important.

As mentioned, each schools job is to take the best qualified... if your interview was poor, if your experience after dental school (you did not mention that either) was limited, if the recommendations were only fair, if you school is not considered one of the top, if your grades in school were not the best... all would effect your chances...

see what you can do to improve your chances... or try the 4 year program... even those are hard to get into...

I know if my interview committee hears some of your complaints, even with 99 on the exams they would not take you.... We rate motivation, teamwork and the interview as most important.

In the past the supreme court has ruled that acceptance to a school, dismissal from a school is soley up to the school if they follow their policies

Good luck in trying again

 

[C2H5OH]

Passing the ADC exams are no easy feat either. Don't fool yourself into thinking its any easier here than the US. We also have a 2-year advance standing program for international dentists as well, most of which go to Adelaide University. 👍

http://www.health.adelaide.edu.au/dentistry/programs/bridging_program/

Certification/licensure of internationally trained dentists is pretty much standard between the US, Canada, and Australia.

I know it's ain't easy ... but it's piece of cake compared to taking TOEFL, NBDE1, NBDE2 that are supposed to be in the high 80's or 90's to even be considered for an international dentists' program, where you have to compete with few hundred dentists like yourself for about 10 places ... and IF you get in, you're supposed to spend another 2-3years and >100K$ in order to get your DMD 😱

In AU there are only 3 exams, and 2 of them (OET - English, and Preliminary) can be taken abroad.

This is DEFINITELY not the same ... ADC procedure is much more considerate than it's ADA's counterpart ...

I think that after spending a few months studying, I can pass the ADC exams, given that I have graduated among the top 10 in my class from a respected university in my home country 😎 I worked too hard for the DMD degree that I currently hold in order to go through this hell just to receive the same degree from another (US) university.

All I was saying, that there are too many IFs in the US licesure procedure ...

 

[g3k]

I know it's ain't easy ... but it's piece of cake compared to taking TOEFL, NBDE1, NBDE2 that are supposed to be in the high 80's or 90's to even be considered for an international dentists' program, where you have to compete with few hundred dentists like yourself for about 10 places ... and IF you get in, you're supposed to spend another 2-3years and >100K$ in order to get your DMD 😱

In AU there are only 3 exams, and 2 of them (OET - English, and Preliminary) can be taken abroad.

This is DEFINITELY not the same ... ADC procedure is much more considerate than it's ADA's counterpart ...

I think that after spending a few months studying, I can pass the ADC exams, given that I have graduated among the top 10 in my class from a respected university in my home country 😎 I worked too hard for the DMD degree that I currently hold in order to go through this hell just to receive the same degree from another (US) university.

All I was saying, that there are too many IFs in the US licesure procedure ...

I would disagree... I know a couple of toppers in my school who have failed the AU exam and I not one of the toppers and I got into 5 programs here in the US. NBDE is easier, atleast for me. TOEFL... that is the easiest exam I have ever taken in my lifetime. I don't think we can compare apples to oranges.

 

[g3k]

The quota of foreign-trained dentists who can become licensed has been limited to the dental school selection number since the year 2003 in California and before that date in most states. Previously, we foreign dental applicants were allowed to take the clinical board exam after we completed existing eligibility requirements and have passed Parts I and II of the National Dental Board Examiners written examination, and the Restorative Techniques (RT) examination. It use to be that the foreign trained dentist who passed the National Board Dental exams didn't need the qualification program, it was an option. Not anymore. Requirements for Licensure for foreign dentists have changed.
Since the qualifying programs became a must, the number of applicants is increasing every year, which leads that many foreign-trained dentists are retaking the eligibility exam (National dental board exams) and repeating the application process several times, even after scoring 89% on previous eligibility dental board exams, knowing that the passing score is 75%. They are doing this in order to increase their chances of acceptance to the two year program. . This is not the case for the National Dental Students who are required only to score 75% on the board exams. This would seem to indicate that they are not given the same opportunity and the requirements to qualify are much harder. It is discrimination. A US citizen internationally trained dentist who wants to practice must be given the same opportunity as fellow national dental students in this great nation.
"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against."

Nobody is discriminating. This is called Competition. The 4 year dental program has their own competition - it is called the DAT! They can complain too - "It is unfair that these foreign trained dentists come here and take only 2 years of training and get a license. They don't need to take the DAT or go through a Bachelor's program to get into dental school. Here is a friend of mine who as 25's on the DAT and hasn't gotten an acceptance."
So in your words if you think we should be treated equal to the regular dental students, we should go through the 4 year program not 2. Just be thankful it is 2 and not 4.

 

[C2H5OH]

I would disagree... I know a couple of toppers in my school who have failed the AU exam and I not one of the toppers and I got into 5 programs here in the US. NBDE is easier, atleast for me. TOEFL... that is the easiest exam I have ever taken in my lifetime. I don't think we can compare apples to oranges.

You should and can compare ... I don't think that any of this forum participants is in the US because of his passion towards the american nation/flag/president. It seems that people just want a better life compared to one they can provide for their families back home. When deciding to immigrate, one should heavily consider his opsions as a professional at the new place. And I personally think that considering that the standard of living in AU is comparable to that in northern america (US and Canada), ADC's licensure regulations are way preferable to ADA's.

So in your words if you think we should be treated equal to the regular dental students, we should go through the 4 year program not 2. Just be thankful it is 2 and not 4.

I don't think one should spend another 2-3 years (4 is a total nonsense) studying for another DMD degree. Here, in Israel, one has to go through 6 years of university for a dental degree, which in my poinion is enough to get comprehensive knowledge.

Therefore - if going to the US - it should be via the "licensure through residency" pathway.

P.S.
If you can't decide between oranges and apples - go for kiwis (NZ)

 

[xerostomia]

I would back this statement.

Each country, each location has its own rules... Many can not move from one state to another without taking exams, more training.

Just because you graduated from somewhere(I don't recall you saying where)... its not an international permit to practice everyplace.

Exams are not entrance passes. They help the school decide who are best qualified. Your scores are passes... but low. 75 is passing... but many get in the 90s. Even for an americian student applying for an advanced program... many would not interview them with those scores.

Practicing dentistry is not a right it is a priveledge.. you must follow the regulations. From your comments here and complaints, i can imagine that these may have appeared on any interviews you may have taken. The interviews are important.

As mentioned, each schools job is to take the best qualified... if your interview was poor, if your experience after dental school (you did not mention that either) was limited, if the recommendations were only fair, if you school is not considered one of the top, if your grades in school were not the best... all would effect your chances...

see what you can do to improve your chances... or try the 4 year program... even those are hard to get into...

I know if my interview committee hears some of your complaints, even with 99 on the exams they would not take you.... We rate motivation, teamwork and the interview as most important.

In the past the supreme court has ruled that acceptance to a school, dismissal from a school is soley up to the school if they follow their policies

Good luck in trying again

One has to admit that dental licensure process in US is the most difficult for foreign trained dentist than any other country of the world. You take the example of Uk or Australia where you have to go through few exam. We had lot of friends who went to those countries and they are now actually practicing dentistry and even pursuing their post graduations without going back to dental schools to repeat the basic dental degrees, having known this time consuming and expensive licensure proceedure some of us still have to come to US because of their families or other reasons. I am not married, but most of the applicants at this age group are married with children so I understand how difficult it could be for such a foreign trained dentist to settle in US. This discrimination is only for dentistry as in other professions you don't have to go to school for example medical doctors who have a much bigger role when it comes to dealing with human life, after doing USMLE become resident in the same hospital and same clinic as a US qualified medical doctor.
I agree that you need to do some additional training before working in a country, but that should not be the repetition of the basic dental dental qualifications. I would say if ADA can not creat a residency system like the one for foreign qualified medical docotors they should come up with some requlations to grant licence on the basis of post graduate qulaifications like Master or AEGED (I know there are some, but not enough), in this way they can give some respect to foreign qualifications and at the same time enforcing quality contol and addional training requirements.

 

[welle]

bashir,you know what? If I settled a business for 16 yrs, I will never give it up just like that!! No matter which country you are from, and how good dentistry is there. Instead of coming to the states and waste all of that money on life expenses and apllication fees, you could of enhance your dental facility back home or take couple cources and enhance your clinical techniques as well.
Sometimes people need to weight it out and see if it is worth it for them to leave their countries and come here or it is a better deal for them to stay home.
I know some dentists here in the states who make some good money, but they are not able to save much money like what you think, considering taxes and life expenses.
I am sorry bashir, I am not trying to make you feel bad, I am still trying just like you. But the message is: Trying should have a limit...
good luck to all of us....

 

[C2H5OH]

This discrimination is only for dentistry as in other professions you don't have to go to school for example medical doctors who have a much bigger role when it comes to dealing with human life, after doing USMLE become resident in the same hospital and same clinic as a US qualified medical doctor.
I agree that you need to do some additional training before working in a country, but that should not be the repetition of the basic dental dental qualifications. I would say if ADA can not creat a residency system like the one for foreign qualified medical docotors they should come up with some requlations to grant licence on the basis of post graduate qulaifications like Master or AEGED (I know there are some, but not enough), in this way they can give some respect to foreign qualifications and at the same time enforcing quality contol and addional training requirements.

+1

 

[basher]

. Please take NileBDS advice to heart and work harder and try again. It is possible, just try and refocus your energy and do better next time. Again.. Good luck! 👍[/quote]
Thank you fellow dentist for the advise
Believe me it wasn't a field trip, I worked very hard to pass the National Boards part 1 and 2 and the Toefl ... while working and supporting my family.
But what I achieved after all that is a different question

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

One has to admit that dental licensure process in US is the most difficult for foreign trained dentist than any other country of the world.

I beg to differ actually, how about Canada? At least in the US there are still a few states that allow you to just pass boards I,II,II, and sit a bench test and get a license (Minn), also... you can also just do a year or two of GPR or AEGD and get a license in many states. No where in Canada will allow you to do this at the moment. Not to mention that you can just do a residency (pros, perio, etc) and get a license that way as well without going through the advance standing programs.

I know it's ain't easy ... but it's piece of cake compared to taking TOEFL, NBDE1, NBDE2 that are supposed to be in the high 80's or 90's to even be considered for an international dentists' program, where you have to compete with few hundred dentists like yourself for about 10 places ...

Have you written the ADC exams yourself yet? How do you know they are a "piece of cake"? Everyone I've spoken to says they are way harder than the National boards.

We also have the option of a 2 year advance standing program at the University of Adelaide which is at least $31k per year for 2 years. (it ain't cheap either).


2 year advance standing (Bridging program) into dentistry at the University of Adelaide:

All applicants should include the following with their application:

*undergraduate academic record
*statement of purpose- this should be demonstrated with a 500 word typed statement of the reasons for applying for the program and relevant dental experience
*letter of reference from 2 or 3 previous or current employers
*ADC examinations Scores
*written evidence of your current status in relation to Prescribed Communicable Infections. This evidence must be in the form of results supplied through a recognised medical provider of a blood test taken not more than one calendar month previously and must specify Hepatitis B antigen and antibody, Hepatitis C antibody, and HIV/AIDS antibody. Applicants who do not present this evidence will not be considered further. Please follow the link for a full copy of the University's policy on prescribed communicable infections.
*TOEFL: International Applicants must also meet the English Language Entry Requirements.


Selection
All applications are considered on merit and candidates are short-listed for Stage 2 of the assessment using the following criteria:

*academic record
*statement of purpose
*experience with ADC examinations
*special circumstances
additional University or TAFE studies
non award and continuing education


Stage 2 Assessment
Stage 2 of the assessment consists of two parts:

1. An oral assessment of personal skills, abilities and motivation lasting about 25 minutes
2. a viva voce examination of core dental knowledge for about 25 minutes

The results of these two assessments are collated and applicants who have satisfied the assessors in both areas of Stage 2 are invited to proceed to Stage 3 of the process.

Stage 3 Assessment
Stage 3 consists of two components:

1. Treatment Planning and Radiology
2. Assessment of operative skills by a series of technical exercises.


Applicants who satisfy the assessors in both components of Stage 3 will be offered a place in the Bridging Program in Dentistry

Offers
On the basis of the performance in Stage 3 of the Assessment, the Selection Committee of the School of Dentistry confirms offers for 2008. The intake for the Bridging Program in Dentistry is yet to be confirmed for 2008. The University of Adelaide reserves the right to vary the number of offers. Offers of admission to the programs will be made following a meeting of the Admissions Committee.

 

[basher]

I would like to offer a few suggestions to help solving the issues with the licensure process for a foreign trained dentist:

• If it is possible to increase the seats available in order to have more citizens and legal immigrant foreign trained dentists selected to the international dentist program each year!
• Try to find methods for determining the fitness of foreign trained dentists to practice in USA besides the arbitrary grade level percentage. I would think that professional competence and experience, and dedication to this country should count for something.
• I welcome the opportunity to be evaluated, however at present; the evaluation process is, in my opinion, arbitrary, unfair and limited to an inadequate number of candidates.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

I would like to offer a few suggestions to help solving the issues with the licensure process for a foreign trained dentist:

• If it is possible to increase the seats available in order to have more citizens and legal immigrant foreign trained dentists selected to the international dentist program each year!
• Try to find methods for determining the fitness of foreign trained dentists to practice in USA besides the arbitrary grade level percentage. I would think that professional competence and experience, and dedication to this country should count for something.
• I welcome the opportunity to be evaluated, however at present; the evaluation process is, in my opinion, arbitrary, unfair and limited to an inadequate number of candidates.

As I've stated already, there are other ways to obtain a US license other than these IDP programs. Try applying to GPR, AEGD, or specialty programs as well. IDP is not the only way.

 

[basher]

As I've stated already, there are other ways to obtain a US license other than these IDP programs. Try applying to GPR, AEGD, or specialty programs as well. IDP is not the only way.

Thank you Dr.Millisevert for your statement
I wanted to do the right way and obtain the US license through the IDP programs to prevent hearing the words you should, must, could, but:

• you must have the DDS degree to be able to work with your dental skills in the 50 states.😡
• you're right your specialty is from an accredited dental school "but" you have to check the board of each state if your specialty allow you to work in that state,and you will not be able to have your own office.

I am not here to play games, waist time and energy or to gamble, if I want to gamble I would go to Vegas. I have a family to support using my dental skills.
Believe me fellow Dr, I am willing to pay 160 thousand for the 2 year IDP program, although I don't need it because I have a big dental experience. I worked and studied hard day and night and passed successfully all the qualification exams doing my part of the Licensure process, only to know to my surprise that I achieved nothing.

"If you want something you never had, do something you have never done. Don't go the way life takes you. Take the life the way you go. And remember you are born to live and not living because you are born."
sincerly,😍

 

[g3k]

You should and can compare ... I don't think that any of this forum participants is in the US because of his passion towards the american nation/flag/president. It seems that people just want a better life compared to one they can provide for their families back home. When deciding to immigrate, one should heavily consider his opsions as a professional at the new place. And I personally think that considering that the standard of living in AU is comparable to that in northern america (US and Canada), ADC's licensure regulations are way preferable to ADA's.



I don't think one should spend another 2-3 years (4 is a total nonsense) studying for another DMD degree. Here, in Israel, one has to go through 6 years of university for a dental degree, which in my poinion is enough to get comprehensive knowledge.

Therefore - if going to the US - it should be via the "licensure through residency" pathway.

P.S.
If you can't decide between oranges and apples - go for kiwis (NZ)

You had 6 years... they have 8 years. It is still 2 years extra. 🙂

 

[g3k]

One has to admit that dental licensure process in US is the most difficult for foreign trained dentist than any other country of the world. You take the example of Uk or Australia where you have to go through few exam. We had lot of friends who went to those countries and they are now actually practicing dentistry and even pursuing their post graduations without going back to dental schools to repeat the basic dental degrees, having known this time consuming and expensive licensure proceedure some of us still have to come to US because of their families or other reasons. I am not married, but most of the applicants at this age group are married with children so I understand how difficult it could be for such a foreign trained dentist to settle in US. This discrimination is only for dentistry as in other professions you don't have to go to school for example medical doctors who have a much bigger role when it comes to dealing with human life, after doing USMLE become resident in the same hospital and same clinic as a US qualified medical doctor.
I agree that you need to do some additional training before working in a country, but that should not be the repetition of the basic dental dental qualifications. I would say if ADA can not creat a residency system like the one for foreign qualified medical docotors they should come up with some requlations to grant licence on the basis of post graduate qulaifications like Master or AEGED (I know there are some, but not enough), in this way they can give some respect to foreign qualifications and at the same time enforcing quality contol and addional training requirements.

I understand why we need training before practicing. But I do agree on the fact that physicians need more training and they don't have. Then do we really need all that training? It is a good thought to ponder over.

 

[g3k]

Thank you Dr.Millisevert for your statement
I wanted to do the right way and obtain the US license through the IDP programs to prevent hearing the words you should, must, could, but:

• you must have the DDS degree to be able to work with your dental skills in the 50 states.😡
• you're right your specialty is from an accredited dental school "but" you have to check the board of each state if your specialty allow you to work in that state,and you will not be able to have your own office.

I am not here to play games, waist time and energy or to gamble, if I want to gamble I would go to Vegas. I have a family to support using my dental skills.
Believe me fellow Dr, I am willing to pay 160 thousand for the 2 year IDP program, although I don't need it because I have a big dental experience. I worked and studied hard day and night and passed successfully all the qualification exams doing my part of the Licensure process, only to know to my surprise that I achieved nothing.

"If you want something you never had, do something you have never done. Don't go the way life takes you. Take the life the way you go. And remember you are born to live and not living because you are born."
sincerly,😍

You can cry all you want. First some of us will empathize, then sympathize, then counsel and then ignore. Trust me... Life is unfair! Suck it up and deal with it. Go fight for it.

 

[C2H5OH]

You had 6 years... they have 8 years. It is still 2 years extra. 🙂

It's not my fault that they spend a few years in the undergrad studying god-knows-what ... 😎

 

[C2H5OH]

Have you written the ADC exams yourself yet? How do you know they are a "piece of cake"? Everyone I've spoken to says they are way harder than the National boards.

Please read once again what I wrote ... I said that it's a piece of cake COMPARED to the procedure you have to go in the US to get a license. Exams might be tough, but it's doable 😛

 

[basher]

You can cry all you want. First some of us will empathize, then sympathize, then counsel and then ignore. Trust me... Life is unfair! Suck it up and deal with it. Go fight for it.

Dear fellow I have a dream and I am fighting for it don't worry,no one is asking you to do anything nor sympatize or empatize you can ignore, it's not a problem to me or any one else believe me. Just put your feet in cold water and relax.
Obviously The man who ended the slavery and the descrimination in USA knew that life is unfair, he didn't submit to the unjustice. Is this what you want "to submit"?🙄

 

[xerostomia]

I beg to differ actually, how about Canada? At least in the US there are still a few states that allow you to just pass boards I,II,II, and sit a bench test and get a license (Minn), also... you can also just do a year or two of GPR or AEGD and get a license in many states. No where in Canada will allow you to do this at the moment. Not to mention that you can just do a residency (pros, perio, etc) and get a license that way as well without going through the advance standing programs.


I agree getting licenced in canada is very difficult. All the US schools are recognised in Canada and vice versa, so by US licence I mean both countries. Once I met an indian guy who had the Mn licence. From our conversation I realized that getting licence in Mn is not easy and not for every one, moreover he told me that no one is going to give him a job. His words were,' I am willing to work even at the peak of a moutain'. He spent a good amount of money and time to get Mn licence and then was interviewing for advanced standing.

.

We also have the option of a 2 year advance standing program at the University of Adelaide which is at least $31k per year for 2 years. (it ain't cheap either).

Doing advanced standing or any other training is not compulsory there. Its for those whose clinical background is not very sound. I know ppl who have recently got registration in UK and Australia without advanced standing or training.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

I agree getting licenced in canada is very difficult. All the US schools are recognised in Canada and vice versa, so by US licence I mean both countries.

Are you sure that if you obtain a license in any US state that any Canadian Province will now give you a license.. I'm not so sure about that. Can you provide evidence? Are you referring to US license through bench test only, or GPR, or US DDS?

Once I met an indian guy who had the Mn licence. From our conversation I realized that getting licence in Mn is not easy and not for every one, moreover he told me that no one is going to give him a job. His words were,' I am willing to work even at the peak of a moutain'. He spent a good amount of money and time to get Mn licence and then was interviewing for advanced standing..

There is nothing keeping him from going into buisness for himself and opening a practice. Even if he has a DDS from U of Minn the other dentists may still not want to hire him. As long as he has a license, he has a right to practice and can start his own practice.

Doing advanced standing or any other training is not compulsory there. Its for those whose clinical background is not very sound. I know ppl who have recently got registration in UK and Australia without advanced standing or training.

How is that any different than obtaining a license in Minn or Hawaii without any further training? Technically it can be done in both countries now can't it?

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

I am not here to play games, waist time and energy or to gamble, if I want to gamble I would go to Vegas. I have a family to support using my dental skills.
Believe me fellow Dr, I am willing to pay 160 thousand for the 2 year IDP program, although I don't need it because I have a big dental experience. I worked and studied hard day and night and passed successfully all the qualification exams doing my part of the Licensure process, only to know to my surprise that I achieved nothing.

I'm sure you realised beforehand that you were required to do more than simply pass these exams in order to be accepted to an IDP program?

I understand where you are coming from.. but you have to realise that this is a competative market. No one ever promised you that if you just barely passed the national boards you would then have a free ride. It doesn't work like that.

Are you just on SDN to complain and vent your frustation? The US was built on the philosophy that when you get knocked down.. you pick yourself up again, work harder, and make something of yourself. Simply complaing about it will get you no where. Stop complaining, go to the library, study harder and get in next year.

I know you want universal recognition.. however if you have a family to feed and you want to work, again I say there are other options.. (GPR, AEGD) instead of waiting 2 years trying to get into an expensive IDP, (unless you plan on moving to many diff states while living in the US) I say.. just do 2 years of GPR, get paid for it, and then open a practice in a state that allows this. Why not? Nothing is holding you back.


Again.. good luck! 👍

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

Please read once again what I wrote ... I said that it's a piece of cake COMPARED to the procedure you have to go in the US to get a license. Exams might be tough, but it's doable 😛

Well.. maybe you should come to Australia then! 🙂 I love it here... I'm sure you will too.

 

[xerostomia]

Are you sure that if you obtain a license in any US state that any Canadian Province will now give you a license.. I'm not so sure about that. Can you provide evidence? Are you referring to US license through bench test only, or GPR, or US DDS?



There is nothing keeping him from going into buisness for himself and opening a practice. Even if he has a DDS from U of Minn the other dentists may still not want to hire him. As long as he has a license, he has a right to practice and can start his own practice.


How is that any different than obtaining a license in Minn or Hawaii without any further training? Technically it can be done in both countries now can't it?

By recognised means ADA accredited that all canadian schools are. It does not means automatic licence, not even with in US. I am sure that if you are working on east coast and want to relocate to west coast you have to take WREB. I never said that you will automatically get licence in canada after you graduate from US.

I would leave BU right now and I am sure every FTD will leave his school if there were paid residencies or any other easy way out.

 

[basher]

I'm sure you realised beforehand that you were required to do more than simply pass these exams in order to be accepted to an IDP program?

I understand where you are coming from.. but you have to realise that this is a competative market. No one ever promised you that if you just barely passed the national boards you would then have a free ride. It doesn't work like that.

Are you just on SDN to complain and vent your frustation? The US was built on the philosophy that when you get knocked down.. you pick yourself up again, work harder, and make something of yourself. Simply complaing about it will get you no where. Stop complaining, go to the library, study harder and get in next year.

I know you want universal recognition.. however if you have a family to feed and you want to work, again I say there are other options.. (GPR, AEGD) instead of waiting 2 years trying to get into an expensive IDP, (unless you plan on moving to many diff states while living in the US) I say.. just do 2 years of GPR, get paid for it, and then open a practice in a state that allows this. Why not? Nothing is holding you back.


Again.. good luck! 👍

Dear Dr, thank you for your suggestion. Trying to help, I really appreciate it.
I assure you I had no idea, until few months ago, when I finally realized that the most critical element of selection was the NDBE part1 [(although I asked the dental schools before applying they didn’t say that and still ignoring beside some dental schools that I respect post a minimum part 1 score)], because with the clinical experience I have, and the fact that I passed the boards from the first attempt, I thought the dental schools will compete against each other only to have me and have my experience.

Previously, we foreign dental applicants were allowed to take the clinical board exam after we completed and have passed Parts I and II of the National Dental Board Examiners written examination, and the Restorative Techniques (RT) examination. It use to be that the foreign trained dentist who passed the National Board Dental exams didn’t need the qualification program, it was an option. Not anymore. Requirements for Licensure for foreign dentists have changed, I don’t know why.

I am posting on SDN to expose the subject, have the opinion and benefit my fellow dentists and try to solve the issue, and believe me DR the private emails that I have received outnumber by far the ones posted for only two days of posting, which means the problem is big and even bigger than I first thought.

You said that you understand where I am coming from…, that’s good for me. Than you know that I am not only a fighter when I get knocked down but also a survival.

Regarding the last question I don’t want to repeat myself, I posted my opinion before about the options.

Again thank you for the encouragement and best regards.👍

 

[ar78cx]

To all whom posted in this thread: Would you guys give this guy a break !!

Most of us graduate overseas and come here and if were not accepted after several attempts we start complaining like there is no tomorow ( and I am on top of the list of complainers) . This person has more experience than most of us here at SDN ... 16 years , please.. who can top that ?
Just put yourself in his shoes for one moment...

What I am trying to say here is; let our feedback be more constructive.
I think basher got to the right spot to gain more information and move on forward.

My heart goes out to you basher
Good luck man

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

To all whom posted in this thread: Would you guys give this guy a break !!

Most of us graduate overseas and come here and if were not accepted after several attempts we start complaining like there is no tomorow ( and I am on top of the list of complainers) . This person has more experience than most of us here at SDN ... 16 years , please.. who can top that ?
Just put yourself in his shoes for one moment...

What I am trying to say here is; let our feedback be more constructive.
I think basher got to the right spot to gain more information and move on forward.

My heart goes out to you basher
Good luck man

Again, I understand the situation. I'm trying to be constructive, but every response from him also seems to be sounding repetative. I wish i could help ya, but I can't. These are the rules. I'm offering alternatives to IDP, but all options require good scores on National boards (not simply barely passing ones). Dentistry is a competative market. I don't know what else to say. I think there "may" (i'm not sure) be a couple 1-2 pros programs or somethign that might consider international applicants without NDBE scores. I don't know.. but maybe he should seek out these programs and try that, if he doensn't think he can do any better than a I:80 and II:78. 👍 again, don't know what else to say.

You want something, you have to pick yourself up and try again. Again.. I say good luck. People do score above 87 on these exams.. it is possible if you study and review enough. 👍 However, if you become a chronic complainer and you are not willing to double your hours in the library studying and working towards getting a better score to try again the next year, then no one is going to want to help you. You can't expect special treatment, or to be given an easy ride when everyone else studies just as hard or harder and gets better scores.

(Trying to be constructive again)--> Here is another idea.. If you want to try something else.. maybe you could write a letter to a senetor or something and ask if they can help you to have your time reduced if you spend it working in an "area of need" or something.

... But please don't respond to everyones comments by throwing up your hands and saying, "I have achieved nothing" oh well.. just give me a license cause I deserve it. It doesnt work like that. Sorry

 

[basher]

I would like to ask if anyone has any information about the Licensure process in Switzerland for a foreign trained dentist.
Thank you🙂

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

I would like to ask if anyone has any information about the Licensure process in Switzerland for a foreign trained dentist.
Thank you🙂

http://www.sso.ch/

When I was there last year I did happen to see an office of a dentist who had graduated from Northwestern in Chicago. 👍
I don't know what's required to obtain a license there though.

 

[C2H5OH]

Well.. maybe you should come to Australia then! 🙂 I love it here... I'm sure you will too.

I most probably will 👍 It's been my dream since I was a kid ...
But I still have 3 more years to give as a military dentist in my home country.

What's your background? Are you Aussie/Kiwi or you are a fareigner that passed the ADC exams? How is it there for a dentist? Tell me more 😎

 

[basher]

I would like to have your opinion fellow citizen to this question:

Is it a right or a privilege to use the skills you have to work and support your family and of course yourself?👍

Is it a right or privilege?😉

 

[g3k]

Dear fellow I have a dream and I am fighting for it don't worry,no one is asking you to do anything nor sympatize or empatize you can ignore, it's not a problem to me or any one else believe me. Just put your feet in cold water and relax.
Obviously The man who ended the slavery and the descrimination in USA knew that life is unfair, he didn't submit to the unjustice. Is this what you want "to submit"?🙄

OMG!! If you are comparing this to slavery... sorry to say, you don't know what is hardship!!

P.S. I am not worried. I am relaxed... fyi, you are the one whining! 🙂

 

[g3k]

Again, I understand the situation. I'm trying to be constructive, but every response from him also seems to be sounding repetative. I wish i could help ya, but I can't. These are the rules. I'm offering alternatives to IDP, but all options require good scores on National boards (not simply barely passing ones). Dentistry is a competative market. I don't know what else to say. I think there "may" (i'm not sure) be a couple 1-2 pros programs or somethign that might consider international applicants without NDBE scores. I don't know.. but maybe he should seek out these programs and try that, if he doensn't think he can do any better than a I:80 and II:78. 👍 again, don't know what else to say.

You want something, you have to pick yourself up and try again. Again.. I say good luck. People do score above 87 on these exams.. it is possible if you study and review enough. 👍 However, if you become a chronic complainer and you are not willing to double your hours in the library studying and working towards getting a better score to try again the next year, then no one is going to want to help you. You can't expect special treatment, or to be given an easy ride when everyone else studies just as hard or harder and gets better scores.

(Trying to be constructive again)--> Here is another idea.. If you want to try something else.. maybe you could write a letter to a senetor or something and ask if they can help you to have your time reduced if you spend it working in an "area of need" or something.

... But please don't respond to everyones comments by throwing up your hands and saying, "I have achieved nothing" oh well.. just give me a license cause I deserve it. It doesnt work like that. Sorry

Agreed!

 

[basher]

Agreed!

Than, I would like to have your opinion also for the same question:
Is it a right or a privilege to use the skills you have to work and support your family and of course yourself?👍

Is it a right or privilege?😉

 

[basher]

Dear fellow dentists

They say it's the age of terror but we say it has always been the age of miracles, a sunrise, a sunset, as shooting star, a blade of grass, or just the simple act of breathing should remind each of us that we are surrounded by daily miracles.
Relax and be grateful for the abundant miracles in every second of every day of our short lives.

Happy Thanksgiving!!👍

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

Than, I would like to have your opinion also for the same question:
Is it a right or a privilege to use the skills you have to work and support your family and of course yourself?👍

Is it a right or privilege?😉

Privilege