Is there a role reversal once you get into med school?

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09ine

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So just about everyone here knows there's people with 4.0s and 3.2s asking for advice on how to get into med school. Just about everyone also knows that people with great and not so great grades get into school. I was wondering how these people are able to cope with how medical school works out.

Ex 1. The guy with a 3.2 who is filled with ECs and a 42 MCAT. Didn't do well in undergrad which landed him his 3.2. Does he do better in med school, or does he do worse?

Ex 2. The guy with a 3.92 and a 30 MCAT who did well in undergrad clases. Does he keep it up, or were the undergrad classes he was taking simply too easy to prepare him for med school.
 
How could you possibly generalize all the students that fit into those two categories and come out with a consistent conclusion.
 
I just wanted to know if an undergrad GPA was indicative of how someone does in med school. I wasn't trying to generalize an entire group, I just used two examples to show people what I was going for.
 
I just wanted to know if an undergrad GPA was indicative of how someone does in med school. I wasn't trying to generalize an entire group, I just used two examples to show people what I was going for.

I would say yes and no. Typically people who have a lower GPA and high MCAT are intellectually very strong due to their critical thinking and problem solving abilities (MCAT) but obviously they got a 3.2 because they didn't "focus" as much as they should have. In medical school the individual can either get their act together and study hard or fail miserably realizing they their study habits aren't strong enough to survive the medical school curriculum.

People who have a high GPA and average MCAT are very disciplined and hard working individuals whom simply didn't do well on the MCAT due to a lack of familiarity with the exam or just simply bad standardized test taking skills. However, these people know how to work hard and will most likely continue this trend in medical school.

These arguments are flawed obviously. The person with the lower GPA could have gone to a grade deflating school like princeton, MIT, BU, RPI, etc but the general theme stands clear i suppose
 
Everything is extremely variable and there is no 'correct' answer to your question. The groupings of low MCAT/high GPA vs. high MCAT/low GPA are not homogeneous. There are a ton of different reasons for each circumstance. Their performance in medical school depends on those reasons. However, the following may be of interest to you.

Just a little gorilla math to get started, being very general break down of the couple of medical schools that I've seen first hand or have been around:

80% - Doing extremely well
19% - Struggling, but doing fine
1% - Danger of failing

The first question is, what is success in medical school? To me the only measure is the quality of residency that one goes to/getting into the program that you want to go to. I'm being black and white (and it isn't my complete opinion, but it will keep things simple). There are only a handful of things that matter for residency applications. This is an approximate breakdown: Step 1 score > MS3/4 grades >>> LOR >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Research/Volunteer work > Step 2 score > MS1/2 grades. Thus, for comparison purposes, I would say Step 1 score and MS3/4 grades are the best things to look at.

First, Step 1. Step 1, if you don't know is the first of 4 national board exams (could possibly be changed to 3 soon). It makes the MCAT seem like a short trivial exam. It encompasses everything that one is supposed to learn in their first two years of medical school. Anatomy, histology, physiology, pathology etc. Who does well on it? Good students and good test takers. If you have the ability to buckle down, study when you are supposed to and have an aptitude for test taking, you will knock it out of the park. The people that struggle in general aren't 'not smart enough', but the ones that lack drive or the ability to focus and put in the hours. I think the stereotypical neurotic pre-med would excel at this.

Second, MS3/4 grades or clerkship grades. Clerkship grades are your grades when you rotate in the hospital. They are determined by two parts. Part 1, your shelf score and part 2, evaluations by faculty. The shelf is a 100 question exam at the end of each rotation. It covers the basics of whatever you are currently rotating on. This again is easy to study for and isn't generally a problem if you can focus and study effectively. The second part however is where many stereotypical students have some trouble. Evaluations are opinions. People will often complain that they aren't objective. My response is: life isn't always objective, and one's ability to be a good physician can't be measured purely by a test. Who does well on that part? People with good people skills, people who can communicate effectively, people who get stuff done, even when they aren't told exactly what to do. Theoretically, people with strong ECs should be those people.

It is my opinion, but I think I stand on solid footing when I say that this is one of the most important reasons to actually experience things in undergrad/pre-med and not do things purely to list them as ECs on your application. The number of hours you did things and the number of things you did is meaningless compared to the lessons that you learned. Patience learned from TAing, problem solving and self reliance learned from research, compassion from volunteering etc. Those skills are what make a good MS3/4 stand out and can't be faked or read in a book.

To come back to your question. Who will cope with medical school? Almost everyone. Who will excel? Good students who can also apply their knowledge to the real world.
 
Haven't quite started med school yet, but I can speak to doing a postbac.

I had a 3.5 GPA in ugrad studying business. Some of it was just me not putting my fullest effort into everything and some of it was really harsh grading on the administrations behalf. Once I worked for a few years, and decided to go back and do a postbac for med school, I took school far more seriously and wound up with a 4.0 and crushed the MCAT. There is no doubt in my mind that now I am more mature that I will take classes much more seriously and I don't see that changing once I'm in medical school. Honestly, working out in the real world changes your perspectives on a lot of things and definitely helped me grow as a person.


These arguments are flawed obviously. The person with the lower GPA could have gone to a grade deflating school like princeton, MIT, BU, RPI, etc but the general theme stands clear i suppose
Definitely, 95% of the kids in my class at BU had below a 3.6 cGPA (not joking, this is the actual statistic). That's just plain bad grading policy.
 
I would say yes and no. Typically people who have a lower GPA and high MCAT are intellectually very strong due to their critical thinking and problem solving abilities (MCAT) but obviously they got a 3.2 because they didn't "focus" as much as they should have. In medical school the individual can either get their act together and study hard or fail miserably realizing they their study habits aren't strong enough to survive the medical school curriculum.

What exactly is this based on? This is not true because the only measure of your first two years that matters is a standardized exam and your second two year grades heavily based on evaluations as well as an exam. There are a lot of reasons to get a lower GPA and yes, lack of focus makes up a significant fraction. I'm sorry, but very few if anyone 'fail miserably'. I only know a handful, and they all belonged to the category of high GPA/lower MCAT, purely anecdotal, but directly contrary to what you stated.

People who have a high GPA and average MCAT are very disciplined and hard working individuals whom simply didn't do well on the MCAT due to a lack of familiarity with the exam or just simply bad standardized test taking skills. However, these people know how to work hard and will most likely continue this trend in medical school.
As stated before, it is hard to 'fail miserably' in medical school. I don't know many people who "lack of familiarity with the exam or just simply bad standardized test taking skills". They may CLAIM that, but I just don't buy it. For one, people who are compulsive enough to maintain a high GPA, read about the MCAT, study for it extensively and in general are the people who prepare the best for it. Yes, there are a significant number of people who aren't very good at standardized test, but you are missing a group here. The group that simply aren't as 'intellectually strong' to borrow your words. I dispute that every person with a high MCAT is intellectually strong, but I get what you are going for. It would be logical that the converse is possible. I think the people that I have known that have struggled belonged to this category.
 
So just about everyone here knows there's people with 4.0s and 3.2s asking for advice on how to get into med school. Just about everyone also knows that people with great and not so great grades get into school. I was wondering how these people are able to cope with how medical school works out.

Ex 1. The guy with a 3.2 who is filled with ECs and a 42 MCAT. Didn't do well in undergrad which landed him his 3.2. Does he do better in med school, or does he do worse?

Ex 2. The guy with a 3.92 and a 30 MCAT who did well in undergrad clases. Does he keep it up, or were the undergrad classes he was taking simply too easy to prepare him for med school.

As one of those with the huge disparity between MCAT and GPA (you can see my MDApps), it's honestly not that we're lazy or unfocused (although I had my moments). You can't do that well on the MCAT without motivation and drive, no matter what your intelligence level (I guess there are a few.....) Compared to my pre-med classmates, my course-load was heavier, harder, and more harshly graded. That is why the MCAT is called the great equalizer. So, I say in general for Ex. 1, he'll do just fine in med school where the playing field is leveled.
 
I would say yes and no. Typically people who have a lower GPA and high MCAT are intellectually very strong due to their critical thinking and problem solving abilities (MCAT) but obviously they got a 3.2 because they didn't "focus" as much as they should have. In medical school the individual can either get their act together and study hard or fail miserably realizing they their study habits aren't strong enough to survive the medical school curriculum.

Disagreed. Maybe they took a harder major, went to a school with a tougher grading system, or didn't have the luxury to only take BS classes while going through OChem like most of the pre-meds in my OChem class. Seriously, most of my friends were taking ballroom dancing in order to maintain full-time status, so their only serious class was Ochem. Meanwhile, I was taking 19 units (maximum is 18 without approval) including several engineering courses. Might not have been the smartest plan to keep a pristine GPA for med school, but I don't regret it. My priority in life will never be GPA.

There are not many people with that great of a disparity in their GPA/MCAT (I think ~200 over the past few years applied according to that AAMC chart I've seen floating around). As one of them, I seriously doubt it's lack of study skills keeping their GPA's low, and that's why I love the MCAT.
 
Everything is extremely variable and there is no 'correct' answer to your question. The groupings of low MCAT/high GPA vs. high MCAT/low GPA are not homogeneous. There are a ton of different reasons for each circumstance. Their performance in medical school depends on those reasons. However, the following may be of interest to you.

Just a little gorilla math to get started, being very general break down of the couple of medical schools that I've seen first hand or have been around:

80% - Doing extremely well
19% - Struggling, but doing fine
1% - Danger of failing

The first question is, what is success in medical school? To me the only measure is the quality of residency that one goes to/getting into the program that you want to go to. I'm being black and white (and it isn't my complete opinion, but it will keep things simple). There are only a handful of things that matter for residency applications. This is an approximate breakdown: Step 1 score > MS3/4 grades >>> LOR >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Research/Volunteer work > Step 2 score > MS1/2 grades. Thus, for comparison purposes, I would say Step 1 score and MS3/4 grades are the best things to look at.

First, Step 1. Step 1, if you don't know is the first of 4 national board exams (could possibly be changed to 3 soon). It makes the MCAT seem like a short trivial exam. It encompasses everything that one is supposed to learn in their first two years of medical school. Anatomy, histology, physiology, pathology etc. Who does well on it? Good students and good test takers. If you have the ability to buckle down, study when you are supposed to and have an aptitude for test taking, you will knock it out of the park. The people that struggle in general aren't 'not smart enough', but the ones that lack drive or the ability to focus and put in the hours. I think the stereotypical neurotic pre-med would excel at this.

Second, MS3/4 grades or clerkship grades. Clerkship grades are your grades when you rotate in the hospital. They are determined by two parts. Part 1, your shelf score and part 2, evaluations by faculty. The shelf is a 100 question exam at the end of each rotation. It covers the basics of whatever you are currently rotating on. This again is easy to study for and isn't generally a problem if you can focus and study effectively. The second part however is where many stereotypical students have some trouble. Evaluations are opinions. People will often complain that they aren't objective. My response is: life isn't always objective, and one's ability to be a good physician can't be measured purely by a test. Who does well on that part? People with good people skills, people who can communicate effectively, people who get stuff done, even when they aren't told exactly what to do. Theoretically, people with strong ECs should be those people.

It is my opinion, but I think I stand on solid footing when I say that this is one of the most important reasons to actually experience things in undergrad/pre-med and not do things purely to list them as ECs on your application. The number of hours you did things and the number of things you did is meaningless compared to the lessons that you learned. Patience learned from TAing, problem solving and self reliance learned from research, compassion from volunteering etc. Those skills are what make a good MS3/4 stand out and can't be faked or read in a book.

To come back to your question. Who will cope with medical school? Almost everyone. Who will excel? Good students who can also apply their knowledge to the real world.

I've heard from numerous med students that the mcat is vastly different from Step 1. They said with Step 1, if you studied like crazy in your M1/M2 classes and prepped well after M2, you would be fine because it is more based upon what you know. Whereas the mcat is based on what you know and how you can apply it to random passages and is meant to trick you. In your opinion, is this true? One person I know very well (as in, I know this person's mcat and Step 1 scores) did not do well on the mcat at all and took it 3 times, but just killed Step 1. Of course this is only one person, but this person said the issues he/she had with the mcat (basically the intrinsic trickiness of the test) did not arise with Step 1 because Step 1 was much more straight-forward. This person did say, however, that in terms of total preparation (2 years of med school classes and 5 weeks of Step 1 prep), Step 1 was more time intensive to prepare for.
 
As one of those with the huge disparity between MCAT and GPA (you can see my MDApps), it's honestly not that we're lazy or unfocused (although I had my moments). You can't do that well on the MCAT without motivation and drive, no matter what your intelligence level (I guess there are a few.....) Compared to my pre-med classmates, my course-load was heavier, harder, and more harshly graded. That is why the MCAT is called the great equalizer. So, I say in general for Ex. 1, he'll do just fine in med school where the playing field is leveled.

Jeez, with scores like yours you will do fine in the application process. As someone in a similar boat as you, I must warn you that it will be a slightly more uphill battle than for those with more 'perfect' GPAs. I'm convinced that some schools do screen based on GPA, but as long as you write letters and indicate interest to have someone look at your application for more than 2 seconds, they should still be impressed by everything else.

My MCAT wasn't even as good as yours, but I definitely feel like it boosted the hell out of my application.
 
Disagreed. Maybe they took a harder major, went to a school with a tougher grading system, or didn't have the luxury to only take BS classes while going through OChem like most of the pre-meds in my OChem class. Seriously, most of my friends were taking ballroom dancing in order to maintain full-time status, so their only serious class was Ochem. Meanwhile, I was taking 19 units (maximum is 18 without approval) including several engineering courses. Might not have been the smartest plan to keep a pristine GPA for med school, but I don't regret it. My priority in life will never be GPA.

There are not many people with that great of a disparity in their GPA/MCAT (I think ~200 over the past few years applied according to that AAMC chart I've seen floating around). As one of them, I seriously doubt it's lack of study skills keeping their GPA's low, and that's why I love the MCAT.

I should have stated my opinion on that as well. I agree with you completely. I'm a biological chemistry major and believe me its no cake walk or walk in the park by any means. I have several friends who are doing english and 70% of the time i find them relaxing yet maintaining a 3.6+ (mind you they only take 1 science class at a time). Its a really unfair and screwed up system but the fact is these stupid adcoms usually take the person with the higher GPA regardless.
 
I've heard from numerous med students that the mcat is vastly different from Step 1. They said with Step 1, if you studied like crazy in your M1/M2 classes and prepped well after M2, you would be fine because it is more based upon what you know. Whereas the mcat is based on what you know and how you can apply it to random passages and is meant to trick you. In your opinion, is this true? One person I know very well (as in, I know this person's mcat and Step 1 scores) did not do well on the mcat at all and took it 3 times, but just killed Step 1. Of course this is only one person, but this person said the issues he/she had with the mcat (basically the intrinsic trickiness of the test) did not arise with Step 1 because Step 1 was much more straight-forward. This person did say, however, that in terms of total preparation (2 years of med school classes and 5 weeks of Step 1 prep), Step 1 was more time intensive to prepare for.

The MCAT is quite a different exam from Step 1. I would agree with what you have heard, except I don't think that doing well in MS1/2 matters all that much. They invariably teach way too much minutia and unimportant detail. I think some people get too bogged down in those details and harm themselves in the long run. I think the MCAT is probably more cerebral than Step 1, but my point was really, good test takers will do well on both exams.

I don't think your friend's experience was far outside of the ordinary.
 
Jeez, with scores like yours you will do fine in the application process. As someone in a similar boat as you, I must warn you that it will be a slightly more uphill battle than for those with more 'perfect' GPAs. I'm convinced that some schools do screen based on GPA, but as long as you write letters and indicate interest to have someone look at your application for more than 2 seconds, they should still be impressed by everything else.

My MCAT wasn't even as good as yours, but I definitely feel like it boosted the hell out of my application.

Thanks. I hope so! I'm hoping that my MCAT will just get me that 2nd look, the rest of my app is great. Just that stupid GPA. Congrats on U Penn! If I'm sitting on a waitlist at the end of this, I hope you'll be around for some advice on interest letters.

I should have stated my opinion on that as well. I agree with you completely. I'm a biological chemistry major and believe me its no cake walk or walk in the park by any means. I have several friends who are doing english and 70% of the time i find them relaxing yet maintaining a 3.6+ (mind you they only take 1 science class at a time). Its a really unfair and screwed up system but the fact is these stupid adcoms usually take the person with the higher GPA regardless.

Agreed. I guess to be fair, they have a lot of apps to wade through and you have to differentiate somehow.
 
Thanks. I hope so! I'm hoping that my MCAT will just get me that 2nd look, the rest of my app is great. Just that stupid GPA. Congrats on U Penn! If I'm sitting on a waitlist at the end of this, I hope you'll be around for some advice on interest letters.

Thanks! If November/December rolls around and you're still hoping to hear back from some schools, it can still help to send something to nudge them into an interview. I know it helped for me.
 
FWIW, Dr. Jones at UT San Antonio told my undergrad class about a student they accepted a few years back with a score in the low 20s...It was a huge risk on their part. Student ended up graduating 1st in the class.
 
FWIW, Dr. Jones at UT San Antonio told my undergrad class about a student they accepted a few years back with a score in the low 20s...It was a huge risk on their part. Student ended up graduating 1st in the class.

Wow that's wild. Did he/she say what made them ignore the risk and take a chance on that particular student?
 
Wow that's wild. Did he/she say what made them ignore the risk and take a chance on that particular student?

She cured death while in junior high. Also had LORs from Buddha and Jesus.
 
She cured death while in junior high. Also had LORs from Buddha and Jesus.

Seems legit.

There were some really great responses here. What counts as good study habits then if gpas aren't standard? It just seems scary to want to really be in medicine, get accepted but then not do well in the end.
 
i'm not sure how i feel about the insinuation that a 30 mcat is a poor score
 
Thanks! If November/December rolls around and you're still hoping to hear back from some schools, it can still help to send something to nudge them into an interview. I know it helped for me.

As in a letter of interest? Or did you just send an update on your current activities?
 
Wow that's wild. Did he/she say what made them ignore the risk and take a chance on that particular student?

I don't remember specifically, but he said they obviously knocked their interviews out of the park and I'm guessing their ECs were pretty stellar.
 
From my observation: the harder you had to struggle to get into medical school, the harder you will struggle to succeed and stay in medical school. Not fair, but true. I don't know how that breaks down wrt this GPA and that MCAT or whatever, and I doubt anyone does.
 
i'm not sure how i feel about the insinuation that a 30 mcat is a poor score

My bad, I was trying to show how the person with a higher GPA got a lower MCAT score in general.
 
As in a letter of interest? Or did you just send an update on your current activities?

A bit of both, for some of the schools where I was deferred pre-interview, I sent in tailored letters to the schools expressing specific interest. I also sent a bunch of updates separately regarding a paper I published once it was accepted by the journal.
 
Med school is a blank slate. It's impossible to predict who will succeed; some will naturally do better than others. Some of the 38+ brains will be in the middle of the class, while some of the normals could shoot to the top.
 
It's impossible to tell. Some schools are simply much harder than others. Many top 20 schools, and a few outside of the top 20-notably BU and tech schools-have pretty bad grade deflation. I know intelligent, hard-working people that got a 3.2 at Hopkins, Wash U, Emory, etc (and they almost always break 30). Also, there is incredible variation in the undergrad experience regarding outside pressures like having to work full time. I have quite a few friends that went to relatively uncompetitive schools and then made their schedules as easy as humanly possible. This makes for a nice, comfortable undergrad experience and a puffed-up GPA, but if those students aren't mentally ready for an actual challenge they will get their butt's kicked by other students that are better prepared. As far as the MCAT goes, I think most people agree that a standardized test will only give you a very rough estimate of success in med school. I'm sure there are people out there who didn't break 30 that get AOA.
 
Not that this has been posted a thousand times already but,

"A small to moderate correlation was also found between MCAT and USMLE scores, with r values ranging from 0.38 to 0.60. This correlation was highest for USMLE Step 1. Among the different MCAT subsets, the highest correlation was found for the biological sciences and verbal sections. There was near zero correlation between the writing subtest and USMLE scores."

Reference

Donnon T, Paolucci EO, Violato C. The Predictive Validity of the MCAT for Medical School Performance and Medical Board Licensing Examinations: A Meta-Analysis of the Published Research. Academic Medicine 82(1), January 2007, 100-106.

I couldn't find a large sample study comparing GPA to later success but some smaller samples cited it as a good general indicator as well.
 
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