Is there any Age limit for foregin grduates.

[timu73]

hi every one.
I am new to this forum but reading so much helpful material around from so many ppl it seems my problem will be solved. I am 35 years old and has done fellowship of my country in general surgery. I intend to take steps and want to make my career in US. I know these are high and mistimed ambitions but desires defy logic so i want to base them at least on realities. I have recently heard that american programes don't entertain those who are over age( which of course requires definition) or have spent quite some time after graduation and this is almost impssibility to get into surgery with such credentials.Is it true?. I did my graduation in 1995 so 13 years down the line and of course by the time i'll be through all steps, 3 more precious years will have been consumed. and please guide .are these rules absolutely inflexible and also tell that wether these rules apply to all other specialities other then surgery.
I'll greatly appreciate your help since most of you are right in the den and can give me extremely authentic information.
regards.

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[KluverB]

I'm not sure why you need 3 yrs to take the Steps. I understand it may be a bit tough to go back and restudy the basic sciences of Step 1 and all the clinical stuff that you may not have been directly involved in as a general surgeon for Steps 2 & 3. I suppose English may not be your first language as well. Still, if you're motivated, you can take them all at once, more or less. As for any age bias that N.American programs may have towards IMGs... well, assuming you have been a practicing surgeon in your own country for all these years, I'm sure there are plenty of residency programs that would be more than happy to snatch up someone with your skills. Good luck.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

... well, assuming you have been a practicing surgeon in your own country for all these years, I'm sure there are plenty of residency programs that would be more than happy to snatch up someone with your skills. Good luck.

Not necessarily true. Some programs have a graduation cutoff, usually 5 years out. They do this usually to 1) avoid residents who are so far from their basic training that they can't remember it; 2) avoid having someone who is "overskilled" as a resident; 3) avoid having someone who is set in their ways, and not interested in changing them; 4) for convenience sake, to simply cut down on the number of applications that need to be reviewed.

Not all programs have this, you'll have to shop around. You might want to do that before you start down the USMLE road -- although remember that much can change in 3 years. Some threads here on SDN predict that IMG's will have more trouble in the future, due to increased matriculation at US medical schools, for example.

Remember that your goal is not to simply pass the USMLE, but to do well. Just passing the USMLE will not get you into surgery as an IMG.

 

[timu73]

Thanx KluverB and aprogdirector.
Your replies although somewhat on different notes but are immensely helpful for me in shaping my future plans. No doubt america is getting tougher every day and situation after 3 years definitely is likely to be more bleak. Requires careful consideration on part of all the aspirants of any sort of career in US, let alone surgery.

Thanx again.

 

[dragonfly99]

I think it will be quite challenging to get a surgery residency in the US for any IMG, much less on 13 years from graduation.
A lot of residencies want to train someone in need of training/new. Training an attending from another country might not be one of their goals.

If you want to try, I agree with trying ASAP (like before 3 years from now). The US schools are starting to take more students, and in 3 years these people will be graduating, making it a bit harder to get a residency.

You will need USMLE Scores way above average to try for residency here, particularly in surgery.

Would think that family practice residency would be much, much easier to get than general surgery. You might actually be able to get that. But will you be happy giving up general surgery to move to a new country? I think financially you could do OK as a family practice doc, but it may not be what you want to do with your life.

 

[timu73]

Thank you so much for your input. I agree, surgical residency is almost impossible to get at my stage and i had this idea when i floated this question thinking if there could be some hope.
Well doing surgery for last five years become a kind of addiction in its own right. your mindset and whole personality gets transformed. So this is very difficult to quit surgery and switch to some other speciality even if you'r likely to get financial advantages.
Family medicine vs Sugery, well unless some body is at the very begining of his/her career with no practical exposure to surgery and is all set to take up family medicine in future, there can hardly be any comparison between the two. Those who are surgeons can understand what i am saying. But you can also say , this is my or ours (surgeons) personal bias.
And what is this ASAP, i could not understand.
Thank you again for your valuable ideas.

 

[Winged Scapula]

ASAP = As Soon As Possible

 

[timu73]

so sweet of you. I didn't expect. As per polls you seemed to have different views on this issue!

 

[Winged Scapula]

so sweet of you. I didn't expect. As per polls you seemed to have different views on this issue!

I was over 30 when I started my surgical residency so I don't think age is necessarily an issue.

I think the main issue for you will be the length of time since medical school graduation and as noted above, many programs are not interested in retraining someone who is already a surgeon.

 

[timu73]

thanx for your reply. Now i understand the basic concept. Retraining is the basic issue rather age. I wish if i have not had any training. What if I don't proclaim any kind of training but then obviously they would be asking where did i spend all these years.

 

[dragonfly99]

It's not being over 30 that would hurt you, it is being an IMG and already being trained for 13 years.

I understand the family practice is not much like surgery. I was kind of just saying that you may have to choose between
a) doing surgery in your current country or
b) doing another specialty in the US, since it's almost impossible for an IMG to get surgery residency over here (unless maybe US citizen already, and grad of maybe a Caribbean or Irish med school or something)

 

[timu73]

It's not being over 30 that would hurt you, it is being an IMG and already being trained for 13 years.

I understand the family practice is not much like surgery. I was kind of just saying that you may have to choose between
a) doing surgery in your current country or
b) doing another specialty in the US, since it's almost impossible for an IMG to get surgery residency over here (unless maybe US citizen already, and grad of maybe a Caribbean or Irish med school or something)

yeah , you are right, I fully agree.

 

[KluverB]

18.9% of gen surg spots were secured by IMGs in this past match. That's 1448 spots, and 335 of those went to non-US/non-green card holders with no prior GME (US residency) experience. I agree that there may be places that aren't looking to "re-train" someone, but if your language/communication skills are adequate, you're experience and your maturity will win out over some scalpel-jock straight out of some some podunk med school in the US.

Now, you being a woman is another matter ...

 

[timu73]

thanx for contributing and giving a very positive twist to tale. This is really encouraging. For many like me , this message of yours simply means "HOPE". But I wonder how can my being woman effect the whole scenario?????????

 

[Winged Scapula]

thanx for contributing and giving a very positive twist to tale. This is really encouraging. For many like me , this message of yours simply means "HOPE". But I wonder how can my being woman effect the whole scenario?????????

It is illegal in the US for residency programs to discriminate against you based on your gender.

Surgery is very male dominated but women surgeons are increasing in number. I expect that because the attrition rate for women residents is higher than for males, that programs might be concerned about you wanting/needing extra time off or other provisions for family concerns. Most US female surgical residents do not have small children during residency or if they do, they have a very supportive spouse who takes the bulk of the childcare. So these issues (ie, whether you are not going to show up for work because your children are sick, or you need to leave early to take them to a school function, the doctor, etc) are likely to be of more concern to residency directors, IMHO, than the fact you are female.

 

[timu73]

so it means i am stuck again

 

[dragonfly99]

was that 18.9% of categorical general surgery spots, or 18.9% of surgical internships, including prelim years? We wouldn't want the OP to come over here, do an internship, and then get stuck with no upper level surgery position. I have known several IMG's (who were good docs) that this happened to. Most eventually find another spot (such as medicine or anesthesiology) but she has already stated she doesn't want to give up on surgery, so that might be a bad option for her. I'm just advising caution.

And I'm not sure that the fact the discriminating against women in the surgical residency application process is illegal keeps it from happening. I'm sure there are programs that are openminded, as well as those that are not. It's pretty hard, if not impossible, to prove discrimination unless they are stupid enough to say or do something really blatant.

 

[KluverB]

was that 18.9% of categorical general surgery spots, or 18.9% of surgical internships, including prelim years? We wouldn't want the OP to come over here, do an internship, and then get stuck with no upper level surgery position...

Sorry, good point, should have specified that that number is from a recent JAMA article (JAMA. 2008;300(10):1228) and includes all GME gen surg spots accross all PGY years. For 2007 match data with analysis go straight to the source, which will give you a good idea as to what it takes to match:
http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2007.pdf
as well as
http://www.nrmp.org/res_match/data_tables.html

dragonfly and others are right to point out that it may not be easy and that there are no guarantees. You need to weigh if you're willing to risk spending a few thousand dollars on USMLEs, applications, interviews, visa-issues, etc. with a possibility of not matching. Don't know what country you're coming from, but you may also want to consider if the US is the be-all-end-all of your happiness, especially given the financial meltdown looming in the days, months, and years ahead. Also, be aware that the work-hours in the US may not be what you're used to back home. For residents the current max is 80hrs, but from from what I hear from my friends, they are often in violation of those regulations. As an attending, you may still not have the kind of lifestyle you may have gotten used to back home. But I'm just speculating.

However, you'll never get in if you don't try. Also, don't forget that beyond the match there is the scramble, which could still secure you a spot. Also, this may not be true of surgery, but in some other specialties, it's possible to get your US training-equivalent by doing a series of fellowships instead of redoing your residency.

It all comes down to what it is you want out of life and how badly you want it. Good luck.

 

[Winged Scapula]

And I'm not sure that the fact the discriminating against women in the surgical residency application process is illegal keeps it from happening. I'm sure there are programs that are openminded, as well as those that are not. It's pretty hard, if not impossible, to prove discrimination unless they are stupid enough to say or do something really blatant.

Of course it happens and its difficult to prove as you point out.

But I think the issue is not as simple as, "reject the applicant because she's female". IMHO most programs are more concerned about the female with small children, especially the single female as they are rightfully concerned that she will not finish residency or will need/require/demand more time off than her colleagues.

 

[dragonfly99]

I don't get it...
wouldn't a "married female" be worse because she would be much more likely to get pregnant (in the minds of the PD's)?
I'm not following you.
And why would single female "require time off"? I never "required time off" during my medicine residency, and I'm a single female...

 

[greens]

I'm pretty sure she meant "single parent" needing time off not single female w/o child needing time off.

 

[timu73]

well this is good to have so many opinions about this issue which must be bothering many IMGs. Sometimes you get hope and sometimes this is really frustrating. Of course I dont want to give up on surgery as i worked very hard to reach where i am now. To become a full fledge surgeon is not an easy job and then to follow it through for five years after fellowship makes it even difficult in a set up which is so lop sided in many ways. But this is perhaps any body's dream to get best of what is achievable in his/her field and fortunately or unfortunately these days trends are all set for US soil. it involves heavy expenditures in terms of dollars and putting so much at stake therefore makes it very "risky business" especially for those who are part of less priviliged societies.
I know about economic crumble which US is facing these days but for a country which is producing almost 30% of world GDP and with assets amounting to almost around 14 trillion dollar , it wouldn 't or shouldn't be long before things will start normalizing but no doubt this is just hoping against all odds. However will it in any way effect availability of training slots or jobs in general for IMGs,will matter.
Kluver B has just touched on an option which i have been hearing a lot about even in my country but i don't know how viable can it be in the end?
its talk about entering into fellowship programes directly on basis of my experience and qualification when i am through all " steps". and it will or will it give me equivalence to american boards or something like that finally,can be one million dollar question . Somebody told me that it is possible but this is kind of unaccredited training and even after completing it, i may not be able to "practise" surgery in US. Now please tell me how much true it is and how much conveniently one may be able to get into such fellowships.
thanks to all for contributing such valuable suggestions.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I'm pretty sure she meant "single parent" needing time off not single female w/o child needing time off.

That's exactly what I meant.

In the surgical world, a single *childless* female is preferred because of the assumption that a married or single female (more likely the latter) with children will want more time off because of child care issues.

 

[fedore]

Hello
I am IMG doctor. I graduated in 2007 then I work for a year In Rural Medical Service. I enter the general surgery residency in 2008 and just finished now 2011. My desire is to do the General Surgery Residence in USA
This year I will dedicate to pass the steps; My questions are:
1-will influence negatively the fact that I graduated in 2007.
2-I have an advantage to have completed general surgery residency in my country or not

Thanks for your help

 

[Volkitolki]

Hi i am a new member. I am an ophthalmolog in Turkey. I am 35 years old. Do you think that is there any chance for me to go through USMLE and get psychiatry recidency hereafter. Thanks ...

 

[sineapse]

Which noob dug up a 3 year old thread??

 

[Samm33]

hi every one.
I am new to this forum but reading so much helpful material around from so many ppl it seems my problem will be solved. I am 35 years old and has done fellowship of my country in general surgery. I intend to take steps and want to make my career in US. I know these are high and mistimed ambitions but desires defy logic so i want to base them at least on realities. I have recently heard that american programes don't entertain those who are over age( which of course requires definition) or have spent quite some time after graduation and this is almost impssibility to get into surgery with such credentials.Is it true?. I did my graduation in 1995 so 13 years down the line and of course by the time i'll be through all steps, 3 more precious years will have been consumed. and please guide .are these rules absolutely inflexible and also tell that wether these rules apply to all other specialities other then surgery.
I'll greatly appreciate your help since most of you are right in the den and can give me extremely authentic information.
regards.

Hi , I am general surgeon in my original country ,, and I moved to Paris , I didn't like the system very well despite of advantages ,,I started with usmle , I have the same question as u have ,,, I am 33 yrs old ,,,any advice