Is there any money in social work?

[Wolvereenie]

I am a sophomore undergrad at a big ten university, and I have very recently decided that med school (for psychiatry) is not for me. I am still very interested in working in a mental health field, but social work makes me wary when it comes to the earning potential after grad school. While I understand that people do not go into social work for the money, it is still somewhat important to me to make a comfortable income. I'm more interested in counseling rather than research, which is what makes social work more appealing than a psychology grad school.

So, I am wondering if there are some fields within social work that make more money than other fields? Is there any way to make a good amount of money (>$70,000) with this degree? Thanks!

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[erg923]

Your stated figure is the top 10% earners in that field. So, yes, possible. But not likley, no.

 

[wesleysmith]

I'm not sure where those numbers come from, but the NASW Salary Survey for 2009 shows the top 10% earning $92,000.00 and up. I think the BSW and "Other" degree's taken into account, in addition to the non-profit, secondary income, this-is-my-passion (read: don't care about salary) incomes REALLY muddy the water when examining salaries. Getting rich with an MSW is highly unlikely, however, if the NASW reports are accurate, you can make out fairly well. The median base pay salary was listed as $55,000.00 - here's the link <http://www.naswdc.org/pressroom/2010/salarystudy2010.pdf>
It's got a pretty good break down. There should be more recent ones, but for whatever reason they're a pain to search for.

 

[ArchimedesDeathRay]

I strongly advise you to not pursue SW. Regardless of what social work academics tell you there is no money in the field. With my MSW I will be lucky to find a job making 35k a year. When I was younger I thought that 35k would be enough for me to live comfortably but it is not. Now I am trying to find a pay that I can pay for my living expenses while also paying for medical school prereqs and it seems impossible. Don't be dumb like me; avoid social work.

 

[ikibah]

35k a year!? That sounds pretty bleak...Look online at job postings online for LCSW'S....they are waay more then that.. plus if you start looking at director jobs (years down the line) there are many that are in the six figure range. Also there is really no limit with what you can make in PP.It's by no means an easy or short path but it is possible and can be super lucrative....I don't know where you're living where you can't find a job 50-60k??

 

[submarine1991]

35k a year!? That sounds pretty bleak...Look online at job postings online for LCSW'S....they are waay more then that.. plus if you start looking at director jobs (years down the line) there are many that are in the six figure range. Also there is really no limit with what you can make in PP.It's by no means an easy or short path but it is possible and can be super lucrative....I don't know where you're living where you can't find a job 50-60k??

Government jobs start non licensed folks off at mid/high forties up to low fifties. A year later they get a significant pay increase. Director/Executive jobs, six figures as Ikibah said. Again, private practice, Adjunct positions, etc. There is money in social work. I didn't respond to this thread earlier because we have had this conversation before, but $35,000? That's not the norm. I don't know a MSW who makes that, licensed or unlicensed. Heck, school social workers make much more than that.

 

[ArchimedesDeathRay]

Government jobs start non licensed folks off at mid/high forties up to low fifties. A year later they get a significant pay increase. Director/Executive jobs, six figures as Ikibah said. Again, private practice, Adjunct positions, etc. There is money in social work. I didn't respond to this thread earlier because we have had this conversation before, but $35,000? That's not the norm. I don't know a MSW who makes that, licensed or unlicensed. Heck, school social workers make much more than that.

I don't know any unlicensed MSW that makes more than 35k; it's the reason most of my SW colleagues are fleeing from the field. Of course, it takes 2+ years to get licensed in Florida while working a job that pays almost nothing. I don't know, maybe the lesson is to not be a social worker in North Florida.

 

[wesleysmith]

The worst paying agency in my area, which thanks to the university is flooded, pays $40,000.00 starting... licensed goes up from there, not drastically, but like I said, that's the agency with the reputation for the worst pay...if you can't find a job that pays more than home depot I would consider moving before such a drastic career change, unless you just wanted to change careers for reasons other than financial difficulties in the local market.

 

[Goobernut]

To the OP: it is not as simple as social work = less research and psychology = mostly research. Honestly, you can get similar training from both types of terminal master's programs. They are, in my opinion, different philosophies though. This varies from institution to institution and I think should be evaluated at a program level, rather than just psych vs. Social work. I HAD TO HAVE 2 semesters of research as a prerequisite for my MSW program.

On salaries: I reside in a low cost of living state. Super cheap. I have seen licensed social work portions advertised for as low as $30k. These positions are at certain CMHCs and free clinics. I've heard child and adult welfare workers are paid just above $30k. Also FQHC in underserved rural areas offer around this number. According to Salary.com (not the best, but you can google multiple sources) MSW salaries under 44k are the bottom 10% of all MSW salaries for my metro area. It goes up for LCSWs. The median is 53k. For LPC's the median is 34k, and bottom 10% is 25k (edited because I forgot exact $$). So for psych masters, the outcome is actually lower than MSWs. Also remember we're not sure of all the parameters for that data, so don't take it as perfect truth hah. I know salary varies state by state, but having an MSW does not equal 30k salary forever. Also medical social work has a slightly higher median income and in hospitals here they are still unlicensed doing discharge planning etc.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I am a sophomore undergrad at a big ten university, and I have very recently decided that med school (for psychiatry) is not for me. I am still very interested in working in a mental health field, but social work makes me wary when it comes to the earning potential after grad school. While I understand that people do not go into social work for the money, it is still somewhat important to me to make a comfortable income. I'm more interested in counseling rather than research, which is what makes social work more appealing than a psychology grad school.

So, I am wondering if there are some fields within social work that make more money than other fields? Is there any way to make a good amount of money (>$70,000) with this degree? Thanks!

No. There is no money in social work. There is barely any money in being a psychologist and if you really want to buy a nice foreign car then you could afford that as a psychiatrist. In my opinion, 70K is not a lot of money. My wife made that working at a trash company with no college education and my daughter will make more than that with no college as a district manager for a retail store.

 

[Goobernut]

No. There is no money in social work. There is barely any money in being a psychologist and if you really want to buy a nice foreign car then you could afford that as a psychiatrist. In my opinion, 70K is not a lot of money. My wife made that working at a trash company with no college education and my daughter will make more than that with no college as a district manager for a retail store.

Wow Smalltown, this seems like an unusually bitter post from you! Or are you trying to get people to self-select out of the mental health field?

 

[CaliMac]

No. There is no money in social work. There is barely any money in being a psychologist and if you really want to buy a nice foreign car then you could afford that as a psychiatrist. In my opinion, 70K is not a lot of money. My wife made that working at a trash company with no college education and my daughter will make more than that with no college as a district manager for a retail store.

In this vein, though my heart has always been in counseling, I am now looking at law school. Supporting a family just doesn't seem possible with any type of mid-level mental health degree.

This board, bls and various other searches all say roughly the same thing. Correct me if I am wrong...

 

[QAsPsych]

CaliMac: Law School is a bum deal these days unless you go to like a top 10 school. Market is flooded, far worse than mental health. In general there aren't many "sure bets" today.

I also think saying 70K isn't a lot of money for one person is a little...off. It's almost 20K than the median salary for the United States. Very few people I know make that much regardless of background, the few I know who do make that much have advanced degrees.

 

[ikibah]

well the less of you who enter the field the more clients available for me!

 

[erg923]

CaliMac: Law School is a bum deal these days unless you go to like a top 10 school. Market is flooded, far worse than mental health. In general there aren't many "sure bets" today.

I also think saying 70K isn't a lot of money for one person is a little...off. It's almost 20K than the median salary for the United States. Very few people I know make that much regardless of background, the few I know who do make that much have advanced degrees.

Its all relative. is it "enough?" Of course. It is alot.? Not at all in my opinion. Houses in good neigborhoods are expensive. So are cars. So is Catholic school. Student loans. Doctors visits. etc. etc.

 

[smalltownpsych]

CaliMac: Law School is a bum deal these days unless you go to like a top 10 school. Market is flooded, far worse than mental health. In general there aren't many "sure bets" today.

I also think saying 70K isn't a lot of money for one person is a little...off. It's almost 20K than the median salary for the United States. Very few people I know make that much regardless of background, the few I know who do make that much have advanced degrees.

Some of my reason for posting this is because there has been wage stagnation or even deflation in our field over the last 15 years or so. This is despite the fact that our services continue to have increased demand and have demonstrated efficacy with a good cost/value ratio. One school of thought is that part of the problem with our wages is that we are too nice and don't want to seem greedy or because we got into this field to help people not to take advantage of them financially. A counter to that is the higher we value our services the more benefit that patients and society derives. If we are marginalized, what do you think happens to our clients?

 

[CaliMac]

Its all relative. is it "enough?" Of course. It is alot.? Not at all in my opinion. Houses in good neigborhoods are expensive. So are cars. So is Catholic school. Student loans. Doctors visits. etc. etc.

Exactly my point. In order to rent a place in a good school district (not great, even), I need to have $2,500 available monthly. At 1/3 of my income, that's $90k annually. I could live in a less expensive area but then private school would add another $1200-$1600/month into my budget. Starting salaries for MFTs in this area range $45-50k and career median reaches about $65k after 15 years. This is after three years of school and two of minimum pay while accumulating intern hours.

I'm not saying I have the answer to everyone's problems, of course, but I am considering serving the same population (sexual assault, trauma, domestic violence) in a powerful way with shorter school, a better chance at funding and comparable employment opportunity. Ironically, the volunteer work I'm doing in prep for counseling apps has taught me this lesson.

 

[QAsPsych]

Its all relative. is it "enough?" Of course. It is alot.? Not at all in my opinion. Houses in good neigborhoods are expensive. So are cars. So is Catholic school. Student loans. Doctors visits. etc. etc.

Certainly what you want in life will define the relative viewpoint, but calling more than what most people will make at the top of their salary in life "not a lot of money" is strikingly off to me. This is not about the profession, I am all for better remuneration for mental health practitioners. And in general, wage stagnation has been a problem over the last many years and I'd love to see some correction. 70K is enough for a -very- comfortable lifestyle for one, even in most major cities. I can't say someone doesn't make a lot of money because they can't afford private school for their kid.

 

[Promethean]

There are some hospital based social work jobs that can pay 60+k. (Just saw one advertised for ~70k) The work is grueling and largely thankless and probably not what you pictured yourself doing for a living.

After you get licensed to do counselling, you can earn a decent living in private practice if you hustle. 70k is not at all out of the question, if you can keep your appointment book full and your overhead down.

Before you are licensed? Well, my sister's MSW isn't a lot of use to her as a chain retail photographer, but she makes more at that than she could at any of the social work related jobs she has pursued.

 

[erg923]

Certainly what you want in life will define the relative viewpoint, but calling more than what most people will make at the top of their salary in life "not a lot of money" is strikingly off to me. This is not about the profession, I am all for better remuneration for mental health practitioners. And in general, wage stagnation has been a problem over the last many years and I'd love to see some correction. 70K is enough for a -very- comfortable lifestyle for one, even in most major cities. I can't say someone doesn't make a lot of money because they can't afford private school for their kid.

What does "comfortable" mean? I become "uncomfortable" when I can't maintaina cash cushion of at least 4 months or when cant pay private school tuition... or when I have to drink Beam vs Blantons. Its all relative you see...

 

[smalltownpsych]

Certainly what you want in life will define the relative viewpoint, but calling more than what most people will make at the top of their salary in life "not a lot of money" is strikingly off to me. This is not about the profession, I am all for better remuneration for mental health practitioners. And in general, wage stagnation has been a problem over the last many years and I'd love to see some correction. 70K is enough for a -very- comfortable lifestyle for one, even in most major cities. I can't say someone doesn't make a lot of money because they can't afford private school for their kid.

Also, that 70k figure is the higher end of the scale and you are using a single person as your reference. I would think that most people want to be able to support a family, too. Also, part of your premise is that the median wage which has also been in decline is sufficient. How does that jibe with the philosophy of social work?

 

[Promethean]

What does "comfortable" mean? I become "uncomfortable" when I can't maintaina cash cushion of at least 4 months or when cant pay private school tuition... or when I have to drink Beam vs Blantons. Its all relative you see...

I think in terms of lifestyle relative to the people we serve as healthcare providers.

I have worked for surgeons who wore wristwatches that cost about as much as their average patient would have to live on for a year. Surgeons who were constantly worried about how healthcare reform would impact their lifestyle. I am not going to lie. It turned my stomach.

I believe in people being well compensated for their education, experience, and work... but there is something to be said for modesty when one makes one's living as a caregiver. Wanting to send your kids to a good school is reasonable, and I can't fault anyone for wanting to do right by their family. But for myself... there is a point beyond which making more money is not going to make me happier, more fulfilled, or better off.

 

[CaliMac]

I think in terms of lifestyle relative to the people we serve as healthcare providers.

I have worked for surgeons who wore wristwatches that cost about as much as their average patient would have to live on for a year. Surgeons who were constantly worried about how healthcare reform would impact their lifestyle. I am not going to lie. It turned my stomach.

I believe in people being well compensated for their education, experience, and work... but there is something to be said for modesty when one makes one's living as a caregiver. Wanting to send your kids to a good school is reasonable, and I can't fault anyone for wanting to do right by their family. But for myself... there is a point beyond which making more money is not going to make me happier, more fulfilled, or better off.

There is a tipping point, yes. Below that, I am not providing enough for my children. Too far above it, I run the risk of providing more than is good for them, IMO, and spending too much time chasing after tangible goods.

QasPsych: $70k would be more than adequate if it were only me, I agree. $55k means I can't replace a broken window when my kid chucks a ball the wrong way. It means my car runs on old tires too long so they can get regular checkups (did I mention self-employed health care premiums?). Life is good right now and I am grateful, I would just like to be able to pay for their braces, college and maybe retire someday. Most of the country is barely getting by: I aspire to more than that if I am able.

 

[erg923]

I believe in people being well compensated for their education, experience, and work... but there is something to be said for modesty when one makes one's living as a caregiver.

I really dont view myself as a "caregiver" ....more clinical scienstist who also sees patients, but even if i did, I dont know why my tastes and subsequent lifesyle should have any correlation with my patients income level? Seems silly.

 

[Promethean]

I really dont view myself as a "caregiver" ....more clinical scienstist who also sees patients, but even if i did, I dont know why my tastes and subsequent lifesyle should have any correlation with my patients income level? Seems silly.

Well, there ya go, then. Difference of philosophy. That's cool. We don't all have to see it the same way.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I don't get why a "caregiver" shouldn't make as much money as possible in an ethical manner? If you want to live an ascetic lifestyle and give freely of your time and services, then join a monastery or volunteer or join the peace corps. I work hard and I get paid pretty well for that work and I want to work even harder so that I can make more for myself and my family. I also work hard for my patients and they appreciate it. My only difficulty with this altruistic moral stance is that it devalues the services that we provide and in reality lessens the care that we can give.

 

[erg923]

Well, there ya go, then. Difference of philosophy. That's cool. We don't all have to see it the same way.

What is your (economic) philosophy of being a "caregiver?" I am familar with this philosophy as it applies to the priesthood and other religious servants, but have never heard of such a things for healthcare providers.

 

[QAsPsych]

There is a tipping point, yes. Below that, I am not providing enough for my children. Too far above it, I run the risk of providing more than is good for them, IMO, and spending too much time chasing after tangible goods.

QasPsych: $70k would be more than adequate if it were only me, I agree. $55k means I can't replace a broken window when my kid chucks a ball the wrong way. It means my car runs on old tires too long so they can get regular checkups (did I mention self-employed health care premiums?). Life is good right now and I am grateful, I would just like to be able to pay for their braces, college and maybe retire someday. Most of the country is barely getting by: I aspire to more than that if I am able.

I don't begrudge anyone what they would like. However, that is not my point. My point was perspective. You want to do better than most people. That's fine. But let's not say that making more than most people is not very much money.

 

[CaliMac]

I don't begrudge anyone what they would like. However, that is not my point. My point was perspective. You want to do better than most people. That's fine. But let's not say that making more than most people is not very much money.

Sounds fair to me. Seems like we are on the verge of rehashing major political talking-points for upcoming presidential elections (transfer of wealth, quality of life, shrinking middle class).

 

[smalltownpsych]

I don't begrudge anyone what they would like. However, that is not my point. My point was perspective. You want to do better than most people. That's fine. But let's not say that making more than most people is not very much money.

I guess we should all just be happy with the crumbs that the plutocrats dribble out to us (the shrinking middle class) because it is better than what the average person in the world gets. The flaw in your thinking is that if we don't fight for a higher standard of living/quality of life, that doesn't help the people lower in the SES strata. It actually is the other way around.

 

[QAsPsych]

I guess we should all just be happy with the crumbs that the plutocrats dribble out to us (the shrinking middle class) because it is better than what the average person in the world gets. The flaw in your thinking is that if we don't fight for a higher standard of living/quality of life, that doesn't help the people lower in the SES strata. It actually is the other way around.

I never said be satisfied. You are reading a lot into what I am saying.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I never said be satisfied. You are reading a lot into what I am saying.

Then clarify what you are saying about what a person with a graduate degree should be getting paid relative to the median which is about 53k right now and was 55k a couple of years ago according to this http://money.cnn.com/2014/08/20/news/economy/median-income/
*That is household income not individual but I also contend that the necessity for two-earner households is a social problem.

 

[QAsPsych]

What I am saying is whether you make 30K or 200K, 70K is quite a bit more than most people make. This doesn't mean you can't demand more and it doesn't mean ideally people with grad degrees shouldn't make more and it doesn't mean people in mental health shouldn't make more. It does mean saying 70K is not a lot of money (when talking about a yearly salary), with no qualifiers and a couple anecdotes, is just inaccurate. It sounds jerky and is not an argument. People successfully raise kids on way less, and saying "but that's not a great life" or "but then I can't send my kid to a good school" is an AWFUL argument for why we should be paid more. There are plenty of great arguments given the importance of mental health and the number of years of training for psychologists as to why we should make more. "70K is not a lot of money" is not even close, and it is counter to reality.

 

[smalltownpsych]

What I am saying is whether you make 30K or 200K, 70K is quite a bit more than most people make. This doesn't mean you can't demand more and it doesn't mean ideally people with grad degrees shouldn't make more and it doesn't mean people in mental health shouldn't make more. It does mean saying 70K is not a lot of money (when talking about a yearly salary), with no qualifiers and a couple anecdotes, is just inaccurate. It sounds jerky and is not an argument. People successfully raise kids on way less, and saying "but that's not a great life" or "but then I can't send my kid to a good school" is an AWFUL argument for why we should be paid more. There are plenty of great arguments given the importance of mental health and the number of years of training for psychologists as to why we should make more. "70K is not a lot of money" is not even close, and it is counter to reality.

I understand your perspective and you make some good points. I recognize that many of the people in this country are struggling and I am frustrated, as I am sure are you, with the current devaluing of our workforce. I hope that you realize that all of the people between 30k to 200k are working hard and have to make tough financial decisions everyday. For much of my life (about 20 years) I made less than 30K, the past couple of years, I have made more than the 70k. My life isn't that much different now than it was then. I was able to buy a house and might be able to buy a new car next year now that I am making more (my current car is over 10 years old), but it is not as much money as you might think.

 

[Goobernut]

Then clarify what you are saying about what a person with a graduate degree should be getting paid relative to the median which is about 53k right now and was 55k a couple of years ago according to this http://money.cnn.com/2014/08/20/news/economy/median-income/
*That is household income not individual but I also contend that the necessity for two-earner households is a social problem.

I'm not sure why you used that article to support your point? The point of the article is that the median income is lower than it was, but it is now on the rise. It was 55k in 2009, 51K in 2011, and up to 53K now. And that's for household income like you said. So in theory, the median for a MSW degree is similar to the median for household income. Most households are dual (or more) income. I am not going to look up additional data to prove your point But it would be interesting to know if that ratio has changed. According to the 2003 census data, all individuals with a master's degree (not just counseling and social work, but ALL of those who hold a masters), the median income was 53K. the 2003 data was just the first I found, too lazy to go find the more current data.

(this is not directed at anyone in particular, don't want smalltown to think it is aimed at him) The anecdotal data in this thread is shameful from a bunch of supposedly well educated individuals haha. "My family member's experience is this and according to their word of mouth story you won't make any money with your MSW." Really? I see many posts on the PhD side about "the plural of anecdote is not data." But that's exactly what many of you who posted on this thread just did. If your sister/brother/uncle/babysitter is unhappy with his/her income/license your story is interesting, but it's not data. I usually like this board because most posters deal with data, not stories.

Because honestly, I don't know if your sister/brother/uncle/babysitter was a crappy student. or took out 100K in loans for their private school undergrad and masters, and is now claiming poverty because their student loan payments are keeping them from buying a house. Or maybe s/he said, "I just want to help children" and went straight to work for Child Protective Services making 29K a year? Of course they will be making more doing freelance/retail whatever now. You know, but since we're telling personal stories: My practicum was at a cancer center and the STARTING pay was 50k a year. That was for unlicensed individuals. It was outpatient and it was a state job so they had incredible benefits and 20 PTO days a year to start. Low stress, low patient load, etc. There are social workers who work in the outpatient clinics associated with the campus hospital who make about 45K (because their system pays a little less). They had much higher case-loads but the requirements were still only MSW and did not require a clinical license.

I agree with the idea that it is all relative. In my extremely low cost of living state 55K is a decent living. It's not "I can't afford to fix a broken window" pay. It is also most likely not "send my kid to private school comfortably pay." The fact that the median pay in my STATE is 53K for all social workers says a lot. It is typically higher in higher cost of living states. Erg said that 70K is top 10% for that field. Did he mean nationally? Because that honestly will skew the data for the OP. The op should look at the $$ for his/her own state to find the correct numbers. In addition, different licenses are heavily favored state by state. So in my state MSWs have a higher median income, while in another state they have a lower median income.

Also, no offense to those who are med students, but in my experience med students don't know as much as they think they do about terminal masters degree. Especially an MSW degree. I've had to do a lot of education with med students on what social work actually does and where we can work. So reader when reviewing this thread for useful data, please make sure you note the bias (mine included) of the poster.

 

[Goobernut]

And to use actual data, 35K is in the bottom 10% of salaries for MSWs in my state.

 

[smalltownpsych]

My personal anecdote was just that. I didn't intend to say it was data. It was meant to say that when I was a starving student and laborer for all those years, I thought that 50k would be a lot of money, now I am realizing it is not so much. My final point is that if licensed mental health workers got paid more that would be better tor our patients and for our families and if we say we are already getting enough because we make more than others, then eventually we will make less and less.

 

[Goobernut]

Personal anecdotes are actually more relevant (in my opinion), and I 100% agree with your point Smalltown. I want to go into a career that is meaningful, but I also plan to advocate for myself. I appreciate fellow mental health workers (of all educational levels) adding to the discussion, mostly because you all do have knowledge about my field that can be useful.

And out of curiosity what do you all think is fair pay for someone with a masters? We've seen this hashed out a lot on the doctoral side, but I don't recall a discussion on what we should make over here.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

My personal anecdote was just that. I didn't intend to say it was data. It was meant to say that when I was a starving student and laborer for all those years, I thought that 50k would be a lot of money, now I am realizing it is not so much. My final point is that if licensed mental health workers got paid more that would be better tor our patients and for our families and if we say we are already getting enough because we make more than others, then eventually we will make less and less.

Agreed; it's an unfortunately business reality that if you're not perpetually pushing for more, you're likely to end up with less. Also agreed with how making >$50k feels. I jumped to about that on postdoc from $25k on internship, and again to >$80k with my first job, and neither honestly felt quite as big a boost as I'd expected way back in grad school. But to be fair, part of the reason for that is my take home pay being presently-reduced by things like retirement, solid health and life insurance, and the like...none of which I had as a grad student or intern. So while the disposable income isn't quite where my pipe dreams had expected it to be, I'm certainly very fortunate compared to the average household both in that respect, and with regards to my benefits.

However, does that mean I won't ask/advocate for more money whenever given the chance? Nope.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Personal anecdotes are actually more relevant (in my opinion), and I 100% agree with your point Smalltown. I want to go into a career that is meaningful, but I also plan to advocate for myself. I appreciate fellow mental health workers (of all educational levels) adding to the discussion, mostly because you all do have knowledge about my field that can be useful.

And out of curiosity what do you all think is fair pay for someone with a masters? We've seen this hashed out a lot on the doctoral side, but I don't recall a discussion on what we should make over here.

Fair pay? I think that is sort of an oxymoron. Salary = Money = Business. Business is not fair. It reminds me of another anecdote, (the class groans in response to another long boring story from the instructor). I had a business ethics question so I consulted with my friend who has an MBA. When I asked him if this business practice was ethical, he gave me a puzzled look and was clearly confused by the question. He said what really matters is whether or not something is legal and even if it is not legal, so long as a lawyer says that you can do it without significant consequences, then it is fair game. Some of his response was a bit tongue in cheek but it does illustrate a major difference in perspectives.

To answer your question, I use the following strategy, always ask for and expect more than the median and only accept a position that is at least even with the median. For me, that is doing my part to increase our wages and has led to me being well above the median at about 4 years post-licensure. I turned down the first offer I had when I got my license because it was too low, even though it was more than what I was making as a post-doc. That was a tough decision to make but the next offer was about 30k more so it paid off. We are in more demand than we think, IMO and we tend to not be very good negotiators as that skill tends to be the opposite of our compassionate and caring selves.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Fair pay? I think that is sort of an oxymoron. Salary = Money = Business. Business is not fair. It reminds me of another anecdote, (the class groans in response to another long boring story from the instructor). I had a business ethics question so I consulted with my friend who has an MBA. When I asked him if this business practice was ethical, he gave me a puzzled look and was clearly confused by the question. He said what really matters is whether or not something is legal and even if it is not legal, so long as a lawyer says that you can do it without significant consequences, then it is fair game. Some of his response was a bit tongue in cheek but it does illustrate a major difference in perspectives.

To answer your question, I use the following strategy, always ask for and expect more than the median and only accept a position that is at least even with the median. For me, that is doing my part to increase our wages and has led to me being well above the median at about 4 years post-licensure. I turned down the first offer I had when I got my license because it was too low, even though it was more than what I was making as a post-doc. That was a tough decision to make but the next offer was about 30k more so it paid off. We are in more demand than we think, IMO and we tend to not be very good negotiators as that skill tends to be the opposite of our compassionate and caring selves.

"Good psychologists are hard to find."

I think it also goes counter to much of the standard graduate school culture, where you essentially keep your head down, get your work done, and accept the power differentials that are in place. By the time folks get to the point of actually looking for jobs, the idea of negotiation has almost been conditioned out. That, and earning a reduced salary for so long (as you've pointed out) makes just about any offer seem like it's worth taking.

 

[meenamathews]

I am a sophomore undergrad at a big ten university, and I have very recently decided that med school (for psychiatry) is not for me. I am still very interested in working in a mental health field, but social work makes me wary when it comes to the earning potential after grad school. While I understand that people do not go into social work for the money, it is still somewhat important to me to make a comfortable income. I'm more interested in counseling rather than research, which is what makes social work more appealing than a psychology grad school.

So, I am wondering if there are some fields within social work that make more money than other fields? Is there any way to make a good amount of money (>$70,000) with this degree? Thanks!

Well, I have some friends in SW and they are making comfortable living. But along with the regular job they also work with other NGOs and on counseling. May be that's how it is!

 

[smalltownpsych]

Wow Smalltown, this seems like an unusually bitter post from you! Or are you trying to get people to self-select out of the mental health field?

No, I was not being bitter, I was intentionally being provocative. It is a technique that helps to keep students awake too.
I am actually doing pretty well financially and just want to make sure that we keep advocating for the value of the services we provide.

 

[Goobernut]

No, I was not being bitter, I was intentionally being provocative. It is a technique that helps to keep students awake too.
I am actually doing pretty well financially and just want to make sure that we keep advocating for the value of the services we provide.

Well I figured you were being provocative! But it's the internet, so I had to check motivation.

Anyway, I think it's important to not just advocate for our field on a macro level, but for yourself as an individual. We can address how we are viewed as professionals, but I think (and someone else mentioned it in this thread, don't remember who) that it's important to get training in salary negotiation. I read a study (geared for social workers) that said when the individual negotiated it increased their pay by an average of 10,000 a year. Women in the study often had the most success because they were frequently offered lower amounts to start, and by negotiating they brought their starting pay up to that offered to the men who also negotiated. I think mental health professionals at the masters level, and especially social workers because of our broad range of work, don't think personal salary negotiation is possible.

I'm seriously going into my interviews and bring up pay research at the appropriate moment. I am not going to get paid $33,000 a year. I think my academic history/practicum history/work history puts me way above the bottom 10% of pay. I plan to go to all jobs I'm interested in, even if the pay is listed as $33K a year and give them a piece of research. I think it is ridiculous that professions (nurses) with a bachelor's or get paid more at the same facility. Worst case scenario they don't hire me, best case I get a job at a salary I'm happy with. I don't think it's a possibly that I will never get hired, because I don't think my salary expectations are outside of the realm of possibility for my situation.

This subject of pay is on my mind a lot as my cohort is getting closer to graduating. Obviously.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Well I figured you were being provocative! But it's the internet, so I had to check motivation.

Anyway, I think it's important to not just advocate for our field on a macro level, but for yourself as an individual. We can address how we are viewed as professionals, but I think (and someone else mentioned it in this thread, don't remember who) that it's important to get training in salary negotiation. I read a study (geared for social workers) that said when the individual negotiated it increased their pay by an average of 10,000 a year. Women in the study often had the most success because they were frequently offered lower amounts to start, and by negotiating they brought their starting pay up to that offered to the men who also negotiated. I think mental health professionals at the masters level, and especially social workers because of our broad range of work, don't think personal salary negotiation is possible.

I'm seriously going into my interviews and bring up pay research at the appropriate moment. I am not going to get paid $33,000 a year. I think my academic history/practicum history/work history puts me way above the bottom 10% of pay. I plan to go to all jobs I'm interested in, even if the pay is listed as $33K a year and give them a piece of research. I think it is ridiculous that professions (nurses) with a bachelor's or get paid more at the same facility. Worst case scenario they don't hire me, best case I get a job at a salary I'm happy with. I don't think it's a possibly that I will never get hired, because I don't think my salary expectations are outside of the realm of possibility for my situation.

This subject of pay is on my mind a lot as my cohort is getting closer to graduating. Obviously.

I couldn't agree more with this post. Effective advocacy always starts at the individual level in my opinion and if we don't ask for more we won't get it. Good luck with your negotiations.

 

[Spydra]

Well I figured you were being provocative! But it's the internet, so I had to check motivation.

Anyway, I think it's important to not just advocate for our field on a macro level, but for yourself as an individual. We can address how we are viewed as professionals, but I think (and someone else mentioned it in this thread, don't remember who) that it's important to get training in salary negotiation. I read a study (geared for social workers) that said when the individual negotiated it increased their pay by an average of 10,000 a year. Women in the study often had the most success because they were frequently offered lower amounts to start, and by negotiating they brought their starting pay up to that offered to the men who also negotiated. I think mental health professionals at the masters level, and especially social workers because of our broad range of work, don't think personal salary negotiation is possible.

I'm seriously going into my interviews and bring up pay research at the appropriate moment. I am not going to get paid $33,000 a year. I think my academic history/practicum history/work history puts me way above the bottom 10% of pay. I plan to go to all jobs I'm interested in, even if the pay is listed as $33K a year and give them a piece of research. I think it is ridiculous that professions (nurses) with a bachelor's or get paid more at the same facility. Worst case scenario they don't hire me, best case I get a job at a salary I'm happy with. I don't think it's a possibly that I will never get hired, because I don't think my salary expectations are outside of the realm of possibility for my situation.

This subject of pay is on my mind a lot as my cohort is getting closer to graduating. Obviously.

I agree with your thoughts as I recently earned my Master's and felt that the low 30s salaries I was seeing everywhere (yet demanding all kinds of experience!) were unacceptable. I am curious as to where the salary negotiation training is supposed to come from though. I expected this to be a part of my program and it wasn't. When asked professors would skirt the issue and suggest we do some research, but often told us not to expect much. When asking the career center staff they suggested we see what job ads listed or would direct us back to our professors. It was really starting to tick me off how everyone was dancing around what I felt was one of the most important issues. I've talked to friends/colleagues from other programs and discovered they also learned nothing about salary negotiations from their program. So where exactly does this skill come from? Did I miss a memo on a workshop or something? I am fortunate to have landed a job with a salary I am very happy with, but would still like to develop this skill for future use.

 

[Jungian]

I've been in the field over 10 years and had my MSW for 5. I am close to licensure (have all my clinical hours -just have to take the test). Working in an inpatient psychiatric hospital setting the pay seems to start in the mid 40's (this is a lower paying state). The job is intense and indeed grueling at times although I don't mind this.

Generally, I think the pay offered social workers can be discouraging. For example, when i worked in a middle school as a school social worker (required an MSW), I made less than the starting salary given to brand new teachers with no experience or masters degree. Also, nurses with no masters whom I currently work side by side with often make double what I make. Make no mistake - teachers and nurses have very different skill sets, training, level of responsibility etc - (please know I am not comparing professions or trying to underestimate their roles in any way) but social workers are professionals too - with our own unique set of skills that seem to be desired in a variety of situations. Also, those of us with MSWs should at least get paid enough to afford our student loans as far as I can see.

On the other hand - my experience in the social work field has been priceless and I would never trade it. I've learned so much and know I've received more flexibility, freedom and support than many other professions are able to offer. If it wasn't for social work leading me closer to my true self, I wouldn't be on this forum considering psychiatric medicine now.

In conclusion, I don't think folks should enter social work unless they are called to it and feel passionate about the cause.

(PS: if you land a job with the VA, open your own private practice, or become a director of social services at a for profit hospital you are likely to make closer to 70k -it is possible. Hope this helps!)

 

[Mad Jack]

In this vein, though my heart has always been in counseling, I am now looking at law school. Supporting a family just doesn't seem possible with any type of mid-level mental health degree.

This board, bls and various other searches all say roughly the same thing. Correct me if I am wrong...

If you can't support a family on 70k a year, you either live in a very expensive city or have spending problem.

 

[CaliMac]

If you can't support a family on 70k a year, you either live in a very expensive city or have spending problem.

No spending problem (I work as a bookkeeper now and mind money carefully) and I live in semi-rural SoCal.

Starting salaries of low-40s working up to mid- to high-60s, maybe 70, after 15 years in the field doesn't work for me. My career will only be 20 years or so long.

Mind your judgement.

 

[Mad Jack]

No spending problem (I work as a bookkeeper now and mind money carefully) and I live in semi-rural SoCal.

Starting salaries of low-40s working up to mid- to high-60s, maybe 70, after 15 years in the field doesn't work for me. My career will only be 20 years or so long.

Mind your judgement.

40k isn't 70k. I specifically said 70k, and will merrily judge anyone who claims they can't raise a family on that much.