Is this enough activities to get into an MSTP program? Without any volunteering whatsoever?

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Drakeyboo

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3.74 gpa
3 months chemistry lab research, then switched to bio lab
2.5 years bio lab research, including 1 year full time, poster, designed own project, honors thesis, etc
110 hours shadowing
2 years math tutor part time work
1 year tech assistant part time work
some dean list times
upward trend in gpa

no volunteering. at all.
is this enough to get into a NIH funded MSTP program?
I don't have mcat yet, but what is a good score in order to get into an MSTP program?

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To have a good chance - at least a 36 or higher. Keep in mind that the average MCAT of ALL MD/PhD matriculants is 34.5 and that ~75% of the MD/PhD class enrolling every year are at one of the 45 NIH funded MSTPs (average grant - $ 3 M over 5 yrs). There are people with special circumstances who might have low GPAs or MCATs within MSTPs. Keep also in mind that there are several MD/PhD programs not yet funded by MSTP grants who are fully funded and provide you with an outstanding training, typically at research intensive institutions such as those funded with CTSA grants (average grant - $ 25 M over 5 years) or multiple institutional T32 predoctoral (PhD) programs, particularly if it also includes the PhD discipline of your interest.
 
To have a good chance - at least a 36 or higher. Keep in mind that the average MCAT of ALL MD/PhD matriculants is 34.5 and that ~75% of the MD/PhD class enrolling every year are at one of the 45 NIH funded MSTPs (average grant - $ 3 M over 5 yrs). There are people with special circumstances who might have low GPAs or MCATs within MSTPs. Keep also in mind that there are several MD/PhD programs not yet funded by MSTP grants who are fully funded and provide you with an outstanding training, typically at research intensive institutions such as those funded with CTSA grants (average grant - $ 25 M over 5 years) or multiple institutional T32 predoctoral (PhD) programs, particularly if it also includes the PhD discipline of your interest.

Do you think that the list of activities above is enough to get into an MSTP program?
 
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activities are just enough... doing more research and publications are always better
I am getting a lot of vibe from the premed forums that I need to have more volunteering, and that I need to volunteer at a hospital. I am wondering if I am at a disadvantage applying with no volunteer hours at all, especially no hospital volunteering.
 
Are you getting advice for MD or MD/PhD application? MD agree with premed forum, MD/PhD disagree completely. See my prior advice for you...
I posted on both forums to see what people think.
 
It is not a question of what people think, but what kind of application you are planning to pursue... If it is MD/PhD, you were asking for directions to the blind in the other forum... We are only 3% of the MD graduates, with very different requirements and needs.
 
For what it's worth, my GPA is ~3.8, MCAT 38+, have 4+ years of research experience, multiple first author pubs, multiple international conference presentations, a thesis, ~100 hours of shadowing, a tiny amount of volunteering (<50 hours), and some programming experience. So basically an application with strong research, strong MCAT, and a decent GPA, but with very little in the way of volunteering or other activities. I applied early to 18 schools (range of MSTPs with one non-MSTP thrown in) and got 6 IIs (I assume any school I haven't heard back from at this point is a rejection). Of those 6 IIs, 3 resulted in rejections. Of the remaining three, I should have heard back from two of them about 2 months ago so that isn't encouraging, and I'm not holding my breath for the third one. The fact that I just renewed my apartment lease for 12 months should be a good indication of what I'm expecting to come from this cycle.

There's a perception that MD/PhD programs really only care about research and stats, with maybe only the top schools also putting emphasis on the usual MD stuff. Maybe that used to be true, but I'm not sure it holds anymore. If you look at the acceptances thread for this year, virtually everyone posting an acceptance has a strong MD application in addition to strong research experience. As a supporting anecdote, I was in a group conversation with an adcom member of one program who let slip that the only people she recommended for admission each year were those with music and/or athletics on their CV. Also, many schools I interviewed at seemed to almost care more about non-research activities (one MSTP never even asked me a single question about my research while I was there, I kid you not).

All that said, I wouldn't be much of a scientist if I didn't try to disprove my own position. I had some people who read over my essays tell me I didn't come across as caring a whole lot about medicine (which would have been nice of them to tell me when I asked for feedback before submitting my application), and the same point was brought up at one of my interviews rather bluntly by one interviewer, so that could explain a lot if that truly is how the application came across. But then again, much of the reason I spent more time talking about research in my essays is because that's really the only stuff of substance I had to talk about on my CV (kind of hard to convincingly argue that you have a passion for medicine when all you've done is shadow). I also haven't gotten feedback from programs that rejected me post-interview, so for all I know I was rejected for reasons totally unrelated to a lack of activities/volunteering. Also, Fencer is a program director and he seems to have a different opinion on this matter, so there's that.

tl;dr - My personal experience leads me to believe that your lack of activities, especially volunteering, will be a severe impediment to your success as an applicant no matter what your MCAT score, but my perspective is limited.
 
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For what it's worth, my GPA is ~3.8, MCAT 38+, have 4+ years of research experience, multiple first author pubs, multiple international conference presentations, a thesis, ~100 hours of shadowing, a tiny amount of volunteering (<50 hours), and some programming experience. So basically an application with strong research, strong MCAT, and a decent GPA, but with very little in the way of volunteering or other activities. I applied early to 18 schools (range of MSTPs with one non-MSTP thrown in) and got 6 IIs (I assume any school I haven't heard back from at this point is a rejection). Of those 6 IIs, 3 resulted in rejections. Of the remaining three, I should have heard back from two of them about 2 months ago so that isn't encouraging, and I'm not holding my breath for the third one. The fact that I just renewed my apartment lease for 12 months should be a good indication of what I'm expecting to come from this cycle.

There's a perception that MD/PhD programs really only care about research and stats, with maybe only the top schools also putting emphasis on the usual MD stuff. Maybe that used to be true, but I'm not sure it holds anymore. If you look at the acceptances thread for this year, virtually everyone posting an acceptance has a strong MD application in addition to strong research experience. As a supporting anecdote, I was in a group conversation with an adcom member of one program who let slip that the only people she recommended for admission each year were those with music and/or athletics on their CV. Also, many schools I interviewed at seemed to almost care more about non-research activities (one MSTP never even asked me a single question about my research while I was there, I kid you not).

All that said, I wouldn't be much of a scientist if I didn't try to disprove my own position. I had some people who read over my essays tell me I didn't come across as caring a whole lot about medicine (which would have been nice of them to tell me when I asked for feedback before submitting my application), and the same point was brought up at one of my interviews rather bluntly by one interviewer, so that could explain a lot if that truly is how the application came across. But then again, much of the reason I spent more time talking about research in my essays is because that's really the only stuff of substance I had to talk about on my CV (kind of hard to convincingly argue that you have a passion for medicine when all you've done is shadow). I also haven't gotten feedback from programs that rejected me post-interview, so for all I know I was rejected for reasons totally unrelated to a lack of activities/volunteering. Also, Fencer is a program director and he seems to have a different opinion on this matter, so there's that.

tl;dr - My personal experience leads me to believe that your lack of activities, especially volunteering, will be a severe impediment to your success as an applicant no matter what your MCAT score, but my perspective is limited.

As yet another supporting anecdote, I have really good EC's aside from my research. My research is as strong as OCDOCDOCD (6 years, 2 FA's, 1 SA as an update), but my MCAT is not as high as a 38. However, I received an II from every school except 3 that I applied to (18 total), and have been accepted to 4 already, including WashU. On the other hand, no one at any interview of mine has ever brought up anything besides my research. Additionally, my personal statement is all about medicine (and little research) while I talked about research in the other 2 essays.
 
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As yet another supporting anecdote, I have really good EC's aside from my research. My research is as strong as OCDOCDOCD (6 years, 2 FA's, 1 SA as an update), but my MCAT is not as high as a 38. However, I received an II from every school except 3 that I applied to (18 total), and have been accepted to 4 already, including WashU. On the other hand, no one at any interview of mine has ever brought up anything besides my research. Additionally, my personal statement is all about medicine (and little research) while I talked about research in the other 2 essays.

To add an anecdote from a different perspective. I also had really good EC's aside from research (non-medical related), but <100 hours of shadowing and ~50 hours of hospital volunteering. My MCAT was also lower than 38; not URM. I spent ~3 full years doing research while in school with no publications at the time of applying (some pubs in prep currently). I took no time off, and so far this cycle I received 17 MSTP II and have been accepted to 3 "top 20" schools, and waiting to hear back from the other schools at which I attended interviews. Like mTORC my personal statement was all about medicine, with the other two about research. All of my interviews focused on my research except for the MD-interviews some schools make you do. In my opinion, I believe you need at least some shadowing/hospital volunteering to make you more competitive, but not an extreme amount (I've talked to other applicants with hundreds of hours of shadowing...waste of time in my honest opinion). Just my two cents.
 
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I don't think shadowing and/volunteer HOURS per say make you competitive, but rather, they provide experiences that substantiate your motivation to pursue the MD portion. It's not that these experiences make you a better applicant, but better able to answer questions on your motivation for medicine, knowing what you're getting yourself in to (super plus if you get to shadow a physician scientist in action!). In other words, how do you know (and prove) that you want this career if you've never tried it?? Some combination of experiences will answer these questions for you.
 
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I don't think shadowing and/volunteer HOURS per say make you competitive, but rather, they provide experiences that substantiate your motivation to pursue the MD portion. It's not that these experiences make you a better applicant, but better able to answer questions on your motivation for medicine, knowing what you're getting yourself in to (super plus if you get to shadow a physician scientist in action!). In other words, how do you know (and prove) that you want this career if you've never tried it?? Some combination of experiences will answer these questions for you.

To hit the same nail, perhaps you should stop thinking about what's enough to make an admissions committee happy (especially since it's obvious that there's no real perfect combination), and instead find things that make you happy. If you're interested in MD, try out volunteering and shadowing at a hospital. It's been a couple months, do you enjoy doing it? Then the motivation to keep doing so will be there, and as oxfordian said, when someone asks you in an interview you'll be able to substantiate your claims. If you don't enjoy doing it, can't bear through it, and have exhausted all of your clinical-related options, then perhaps you should reconsider career options.
 
For what it's worth, my GPA is ~3.8, MCAT 38+, have 4+ years of research experience, multiple first author pubs, multiple international conference presentations, a thesis, ~100 hours of shadowing, a tiny amount of volunteering (<50 hours), and some programming experience. So basically an application with strong research, strong MCAT, and a decent GPA, but with very little in the way of volunteering or other activities. I applied early to 18 schools (range of MSTPs with one non-MSTP thrown in) and got 6 IIs (I assume any school I haven't heard back from at this point is a rejection). Of those 6 IIs, 3 resulted in rejections. Of the remaining three, I should have heard back from two of them about 2 months ago so that isn't encouraging, and I'm not holding my breath for the third one. The fact that I just renewed my apartment lease for 12 months should be a good indication of what I'm expecting to come from this cycle.

There's a perception that MD/PhD programs really only care about research and stats, with maybe only the top schools also putting emphasis on the usual MD stuff. Maybe that used to be true, but I'm not sure it holds anymore. If you look at the acceptances thread for this year, virtually everyone posting an acceptance has a strong MD application in addition to strong research experience. As a supporting anecdote, I was in a group conversation with an adcom member of one program who let slip that the only people she recommended for admission each year were those with music and/or athletics on their CV. Also, many schools I interviewed at seemed to almost care more about non-research activities (one MSTP never even asked me a single question about my research while I was there, I kid you not).

All that said, I wouldn't be much of a scientist if I didn't try to disprove my own position. I had some people who read over my essays tell me I didn't come across as caring a whole lot about medicine (which would have been nice of them to tell me when I asked for feedback before submitting my application), and the same point was brought up at one of my interviews rather bluntly by one interviewer, so that could explain a lot if that truly is how the application came across. But then again, much of the reason I spent more time talking about research in my essays is because that's really the only stuff of substance I had to talk about on my CV (kind of hard to convincingly argue that you have a passion for medicine when all you've done is shadow). I also haven't gotten feedback from programs that rejected me post-interview, so for all I know I was rejected for reasons totally unrelated to a lack of activities/volunteering. Also, Fencer is a program director and he seems to have a different opinion on this matter, so there's that.

tl;dr - My personal experience leads me to believe that your lack of activities, especially volunteering, will be a severe impediment to your success as an applicant no matter what your MCAT score, but my perspective is limited.

Your cycle sounds a lot like mine last year. Didn't quite have your CV (had similar GPA; MCAT wasn't quite a 38 (but close); publication + multiple presentations, a thesis, etc. etc.) I applied to about that many places, got 5 interviews, ended up getting in to 2 programs toward the end of the cycle and probably should be studying histo instead of being on here. Hang in there!
 
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As yet another supporting anecdote, I have really good EC's aside from my research. My research is as strong as OCDOCDOCD (6 years, 2 FA's, 1 SA as an update), but my MCAT is not as high as a 38. However, I received an II from every school except 3 that I applied to (18 total), and have been accepted to 4 already, including WashU. On the other hand, no one at any interview of mine has ever brought up anything besides my research. Additionally, my personal statement is all about medicine (and little research) while I talked about research in the other 2 essays.
This was about my experience when I applied a few years ago. The people I met at top 5- top 10-type schools were the same ones I had met interviewing for postgraduate fellowships. You certainly don't need the resume of a Rhodes scholar to get into an NIH-funded program, but in my personal opinion many top schools naturally attract students that are successful in a number of endeavors, not just research.
 
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