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Womb Raider

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Have a rotation that's 18 shifts in 1 month. Pretty nice I know.

Had 1 week vacation during this month. I found out I still am scheduled for 18 shifts, they're just compressed into 3 weeks rather than 4. Is this normal practice? Can't think of many jobs that basically ignore your vacation week and just pile on the work to the rest of your schedule.

I will say I know this isn't a coincidence ("maybe you were scheduled for that entire week off coincidentally since you only worked 18 days") because everyone I've talked to that had their vacation fall on this rotation had the same thing happen to them, and those that worked the entire month never had an entire week off straight.

Anyway, not really a big deal just curious to hear other people's response to this. Sounds like BS exploitation of residents to me but not enough to actually do something about it.
 

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Have a rotation that's 18 shifts in 1 month. Pretty nice I know.

Had 1 week vacation during this month. I found out I still am scheduled for 18 shifts, they're just compressed into 3 weeks rather than 4. Is this normal practice? Can't think of many jobs that basically ignore your vacation week and just pile on the work to the rest of your schedule.

I will say I know this isn't a coincidence ("maybe you were scheduled for that entire week off coincidentally since you only worked 18 days") because everyone I've talked to that had their vacation fall on this rotation had the same thing happen to them, and those that worked the entire month never had an entire week off straight.

Anyway, not really a big deal just curious to hear other people's response to this. Sounds like BS exploitation of residents to me but not enough to actually do something about it.
It does suck but is not abnormal. And it's allowed - you can work 18 days in a 21 day period without running afoul of work hour restrictions. In fact, because of how weekends are counted, they could have even given you a day or two fewer off.

Would this be reasonable in any other job? Probably not. But residency is it's own beast.
 

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Have a rotation that's 18 shifts in 1 month. Pretty nice I know.

Had 1 week vacation during this month. I found out I still am scheduled for 18 shifts, they're just compressed into 3 weeks rather than 4. Is this normal practice? Can't think of many jobs that basically ignore your vacation week and just pile on the work to the rest of your schedule.

I will say I know this isn't a coincidence ("maybe you were scheduled for that entire week off coincidentally since you only worked 18 days") because everyone I've talked to that had their vacation fall on this rotation had the same thing happen to them, and those that worked the entire month never had an entire week off straight.

Anyway, not really a big deal just curious to hear other people's response to this. Sounds like BS exploitation of residents to me but not enough to actually do something about it.
This happens on a rotation at my place. The residents make sure to hand down to each incoming class the verbal advice to really avoid taking vacation in that month because it doesn’t mean any less work. Is it too late to cancel that request and move your vacation to another month?
 
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FaytlND

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In my experience, yes it's normal. And I don't think it's exploitation since coverage is generally a zero-sum game. If you're not there, then someone else has to cover the extra work. You taking the normal number of shifts isn't helping out "The Program" or "The Hospital"...it's helping out your co-residents who don't have to do extra work because you're taking a vacation.

This situation is the trade-off for being able to schedule week-long vacations in the middle of rotations. The other approach is to give vacation as scheduled blocks, but the obvious downside to that you have less flexibility.
 
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Yeah, pretty normal.
 

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Have a rotation that's 18 shifts in 1 month. Pretty nice I know.

Had 1 week vacation during this month. I found out I still am scheduled for 18 shifts, they're just compressed into 3 weeks rather than 4. Is this normal practice? Can't think of many jobs that basically ignore your vacation week and just pile on the work to the rest of your schedule.

I will say I know this isn't a coincidence ("maybe you were scheduled for that entire week off coincidentally since you only worked 18 days") because everyone I've talked to that had their vacation fall on this rotation had the same thing happen to them, and those that worked the entire month never had an entire week off straight.

Anyway, not really a big deal just curious to hear other people's response to this. Sounds like BS exploitation of residents to me but not enough to actually do something about it.
It's normal and it's actually not exploitation. You have to work 18 shifts to get credit for the rotation. If you want off for a week, you don't get excused from those shifts. You still have to work 18 shifts. You just work them in less amount of time. It was the same thing for both med school and residency for me (and I had a relatively cush residency). It makes sense.
 

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I’m guessing it’s an EM rotation? In my internship if we took vacation on our EM rotation, then it led to 50% fewer shifts (is, take two days vacay, you have ones less required shift.)

Sounds like the policy is more commonly to not give time off from above comments. My program was a bit different in a few areas. For vacation, we got three weeks, which is pretty typical. But 6 days of those had to be weekend days. ICU/inpatient medicine didn’t allow vacation, none of my other rotations required working weekends, so I took all 6 days off EM, and thus had 3 less required shifts. I wanted weekends off with my wife and EM was my least favorite rotation, so it worked out ok.
 
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This happens on a rotation at my place. The residents make sure to hand down to each incoming class the verbal advice to really avoid taking vacation in that month because it doesn’t mean any less work. Is it too late to cancel that request and move your vacation to another month?
Yeah too late to change. Will try to improve communication between classes in the future to make incoming residents aware of this.
 
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It does sound weird especially that a resident doesn't necessarily need to cover an EM rotation (Especially from other departments).

In my program a week off means 25% less shifts that month.
 

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It does sound weird especially that a resident doesn't necessarily need to cover an EM rotation
What does this mean?

I can't believe I'm THAT attending, but I feel like some residents really don't understand the purpose of residency. Yes, there's widespread abuse in medicine and yes, residents need more rights, but residency is for learning and I think that gets lost in all the screaming about the other stuff. Expecting a resident to work 18 shifts in a month-long rotation is not earth-shattering. If you're off-service, that's the last time you will ever have to do an ER rotation (if that's what it is), so why would you want to reduce that number? That's still 12 days off. Literally, you get 12 days off that month. Ask our colleagues in IM if they get 12 days off in a month. Some are lucky if they get more than 4. So your rotation is allowing you a week's vacation time, but since you're already working so few shifts, they're scheduling your shifts around your vacation. I'm not sure why this is shock-worthy thing?
 

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The problem is that they then shouldn’t really count this against your “vacation” time for the year. I do think that’s BS. They’re not giving you vacation so much as just taking the days off you’d have anyway and stringing them together into a week. So yeah I’d be pissed off too if this was counting against my vacation time for the year.

We’d never actually take vacation during our EM rotations, we’d just swap shifts with people until we got the 4-5 days off in a row we wanted.
 

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When I did ED scheduling, if someone was taking an actual vacation, they’d get 25% fewer shifts during that month. If scheduling happened to work out so that they got a stretch of 5-7 days off, they would still work the full complement of shifts.

That said, I was much more likely to add an ‘extra’ shift to those who had vacation during the month than those who weren’t on vacation during the month. For instance, when the ‘full time’ resident would have to work 21 shifts in a month to provide coverage, I’d often make the people taking vacation do 13-14 shifts instead of 12 and give the full time people 19-20 shifts instead.
 

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In my residency if you took vacation, your call requirement was loaded into the weeks you weren't on vacation. Why should somebody else do more work because you're on vacation?
 
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Ronin786

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The problem is that they then shouldn’t really count this against your “vacation” time for the year. I do think that’s BS. They’re not giving you vacation so much as just taking the days off you’d have anyway and stringing them together into a week. So yeah I’d be pissed off too if this was counting against my vacation time for the year.

We’d never actually take vacation during our EM rotations, we’d just swap shifts with people until we got the 4-5 days off in a row we wanted.
If you care so much about it, schedule vacation during another rotation and ask to have your shifts arranged to have the 4-5 days off you want. How can you request a week of vacation, then complain when you get that week off but have your shifts rearranged to allow for it?
 

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Vacation should be days that you were going to otherwise be responsible for doing work for the hospital. That is like the definition of vacation.

If you were already scheduled to have 12 days off during a rotation (even if you didn't take vacation), either you should not be allowed to take vacation, or if you do it should lead to a decrease in the number of shifts. Maybe not 1:1 as ER shifts can be considered a full work week as being 2-3 shifts for example, but some conversion.

Being scheduled for 12 days off but losing one of your 'vacation' weeks and still only having 12 days off during the month is ridiculous. This resident should get his week of vacation refunded to him to be used at some other point in the academic year.

And spare me the crap about educational requirements. If this resident (let's say he/she is IM/Surg) used vacation during another block, they would get days off from inpatient, or clinic, or whatever other clinical responsibilities they had. If you're going to argue for educational requirements then why give people vacation at all since they'll be missing educational value.
 

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When we would take vacation in residency we would still take the same amount of call for the month. I have no comparison rotations where only 18 days was required, but if we did I am sure it would have meant we would still do the 18 days. But, none of our vacations were reported to HR by our department so we all got paid the maximum amount for our unused vacation at the end regardless of how much or little we took off so in the end it didn't really matter. I don't know of anyone who wanted to take more vacations but wasn't allowed to (aside from the restrictions regarding how many weeks you have to work for it to count for completion of your specialty which would really only come into play for those who took time off for kids or a medical issue).
 
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When you ask about "jobs," I'm assuming you mean real jobs and not just residency? So from a practicing and preaching attending, if I'm taking vacation I'm making up all those days in the month for several reasons :

- I got bills to pay. Need to pay back those student loans, fancy car and house.
- My partners will NOT, repeat NOT be eager to all of a sudden have to work 50% more that month and not spend time with THEIR families because of me.
- I would expect the same, I would not want to work 50% more to make up for someone's vacation. Shifts are usually re-arranged, and we will have to work longer stretches for that month, but we will still get time off.
- Did I mention I got bills to pay?

So, depending on the practice you take unless you're working for a giant corporation a lot of the "smaller" practices run the same way.
 

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When you ask about "jobs," I'm assuming you mean real jobs and not just residency? So from a practicing and preaching attending, if I'm taking vacation I'm making up all those days in the month for several reasons :

- I got bills to pay. Need to pay back those student loans, fancy car and house.
- My partners will NOT, repeat NOT be eager to all of a sudden have to work 50% more that month and not spend time with THEIR families because of me.
- I would expect the same, I would not want to work 50% more to make up for someone's vacation. Shifts are usually re-arranged, and we will have to work longer stretches for that month, but we will still get time off.
- Did I mention I got bills to pay?

So, depending on the practice you take unless you're working for a giant corporation a lot of the "smaller" practices run the same way.
Many groups have a mix of people who prioritize money and people who prioritize time. If you prioritize time you take your vacation and someone who prioritizes money works both your vacation and their own. They get paid their full salary plus the value of all of those vacation days, you work less but only get paid your base salary.

In any event that has nothing to do with the OP. Attendings who don't take vacation are ER and hospitalist docs who have 10+ days off per month anyway. Attendings who work more days at baseline, like clinic doctors, just take vacation. Residents work even more than that and really need to take vacation to maintain performance and to not burn out. Residents are supposed to get days off in exchange for their vacation.
 
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FaytlND

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I think what's also getting lost in this discussion is that residency is also a bit different than "a job". There's an educational component. The goal of the month isn't just to cover shifts, but to have some amount of clinical exposure to facilitate said education. Is that goal being met if you're working 13-14 days out of 30?

In my experience, the same people trying to creatively schedule the most time off are the same trying to fill out case/procedure logs at the end of a rotation/year. It annoyed me most with residents rotating on Trauma. Without fail they'd all take vacation on service, and then be griping they didn't get enough chest tubes.
 
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calvnandhobbs68

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Many groups have a mix of people who prioritize money and people who prioritize time. If you prioritize time you take your vacation and someone who prioritizes money works both your vacation and their own. They get paid their full salary plus the value of all of those vacation days, you work less but only get paid your base salary.

In any event that has nothing to do with the OP. Attendings who don't take vacation are ER and hospitalist docs who have 10+ days off per month anyway. Attendings who work more days at baseline, like clinic doctors, just take vacation. Residents work even more than that and really need to take vacation to maintain performance and to not burn out. Residents are supposed to get days off in exchange for their vacation.
Exactly.

Plus in outpatient you literally just...take the week off. Nobody schedules you patients for that week so there’s no extra work to be done. Anything urgent with your patients can go to the ED for that week and anything routine (med refills, etc) can get followed up in a day or two by someone else in the group (or not at all if you’re solo and just tell all your patients not to expect someone to answer the phone that week).
 

calvnandhobbs68

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I think what's also getting lost in this discussion is that residency is also a bit different than "a job". There's an educational component. The goal of the month isn't just to cover shifts, but to have some amount of clinical exposure to facilitate said education. Is that goal being met if you're working 13-14 days out of 30?

In my experience, the same people trying to creatively schedule the most time off are the same trying to fill out case/procedure logs at the end of a rotation/year. It annoyed me most with residents rotating on Trauma. Without fail they'd all take vacation on service, and then be griping they didn't get enough chest tubes.
yeah but my (and others) problem with what the OP is describing is that they’re basically screwing him. They just shouldn’t let people take vacation during that block then and tell them they can request to have so many days off in a row or switch shifts around with other people.

I have no problem with someone being required to work a certain amount of shifts to get credit for a rotation but then just don’t let people take vacation during that rotation or warn them ahead of time what'll happen if they do.
 

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yeah but my (and others) problem with what the OP is describing is that they’re basically screwing him. They just shouldn’t let people take vacation during that block then and tell them they can request to have so many days off in a row or switch shifts around with other people.

I have no problem with someone being required to work a certain amount of shifts to get credit for a rotation but then just don’t let people take vacation during that rotation or warn them ahead of time what'll happen if they do.
And I'm saying they aren't "screwing him". Yeah, the person running the rotation could have said something. He could have also asked before taking vacation. When it comes to coverage for vacations and off days, I never make assumptions and always seek to clarify what's entailed. That's not because I'm worried about getting the shaft, rather because it's the responsible thing to do.

And if the thread demonstrates anything, it's that things are handled differently with respect to different specialities and practices. Even more reason to confirm how things work yourself.
 
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I think what's also getting lost in this discussion is that residency is also a bit different than "a job". There's an educational component. The goal of the month isn't just to cover shifts, but to have some amount of clinical exposure to facilitate said education. Is that goal being met if you're working 13-14 days out of 30?
We had many blocks during residency that were considered too critical for our education to allow for vacation during those blocks. That's fine. You need to take vacation at some time but not all blocks are created equal. However charging you your week of vacation and not giving you any days off in exchange for it is not fine. Its the chiefs responsibility to figure out which blocks are lower priority, where residents can afford to work fewer days during their vacation, and to make sure vacation gets assigned during those blocks.
 
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FaytlND

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We had many blocks during residency that were considered too critical for our education to allow for vacation during those blocks. That's fine. You need to take vacation at some time but not all blocks are created equal. However charging you your week of vacation and not giving you any days off in exchange for it is not fine. Its the chiefs responsibility to figure out which blocks are lower priority, where residents can afford to work fewer days during their vacation, and to make sure vacation gets assigned during those blocks.
Yeah, we just disagree. He is getting "time off". Vacation is as much about the actual days off as it is about the ability to take them in a block.

Personally I wouldn't allow someone to arrange their off days in a 5-7 day block without calling it a vacation. Why? Because it puts an imposition on everyone else who are going to work shifts closer together to facilitate it. If you want that time off as a block, that's a vacation. Otherwise everyone is going to start trying to manipulate the schedule to do something similar and get a "free" vacation block.
 
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Vacation should be days that you were going to otherwise be responsible for doing work for the hospital. That is like the definition of vacation.

If you were already scheduled to have 12 days off during a rotation (even if you didn't take vacation), either you should not be allowed to take vacation, or if you do it should lead to a decrease in the number of shifts. Maybe not 1:1 as ER shifts can be considered a full work week as being 2-3 shifts for example, but some conversion.

Being scheduled for 12 days off but losing one of your 'vacation' weeks and still only having 12 days off during the month is ridiculous. This resident should get his week of vacation refunded to him to be used at some other point in the academic year.

And spare me the crap about educational requirements. If this resident (let's say he/she is IM/Surg) used vacation during another block, they would get days off from inpatient, or clinic, or whatever other clinical responsibilities they had. If you're going to argue for educational requirements then why give people vacation at all since they'll be missing educational value.
You're totally missing the point. If the OP was doing an IM or surgery month, he/she would be working 25 - 26 days, so taking 7 days off would mean still having 18 or 19 shifts. In this case, the OP is only scheduled for 18 days. So taking 7 days off (even taking 5 - 6 days), means that much less time on that rotation. You really think 11 shifts is enough to pass a rotation? I did more shifts than that on my MS 4 ER rotation and I felt it wasn't enough. There has to be some standard minimum for interns/residents and this is likely in your resident handbook and/or orientation materials. If you're required to work 18 days per month-long rotation to get credit and you're on a rotation where you're only scheduled for 18 shifts, it's probably not a good idea to take vacation that month because it does suck that you'll be charged for time off you already had.

We had many blocks during residency that were considered too critical for our education to allow for vacation during those blocks. That's fine. You need to take vacation at some time but not all blocks are created equal. However charging you your week of vacation and not giving you any days off in exchange for it is not fine. Its the chiefs responsibility to figure out which blocks are lower priority, where residents can afford to work fewer days during their vacation, and to make sure vacation gets assigned during those blocks.
I don't agree that they shouldn't be allowed to take vacay. I think people need to be adults and realize what the rules are -- that you need a minimum number of shifts to get credit for the month and if you take time off, that means your required number of shifts will be cramped into a shorter time frame and you will still be charged for the vacation. Only take time off during these months for things you can't change, like someone's wedding, family reunion, holidays, etc.
 

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As a surgery resident, if I had rotated in the ER and only had to do 18 shifts (which I'm guessing are shorter than my "usual" shifts) that whole month, I would have considered it an easy month compared to my usual and would not have wanted to use up a vacation week (it more or less would have felt like a vacation even with working some shifts).

I assume that the minimum requirement is 18 shifts, or that the others who have to pick up the slack would hit a "max" number of shifts in the OPs case. Either way, my program was very good about making clear when on an "off" rotation outside of our dept, what the vacation parameters were. Classes would pass down this info from year to year as well, so no one would be surprised if they were denied vacation or had some other quirky thing associated with it.
 
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mvenus929

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As a surgery resident, if I had rotated in the ER and only had to do 18 shifts (which I'm guessing are shorter than my "usual" shifts) that whole month, I would have considered it an easy month compared to my usual and would not have wanted to use up a vacation week (it more or less would have felt like a vacation even with working some shifts).

I assume that the minimum requirement is 18 shifts, or that the others who have to pick up the slack would hit a "max" number of shifts in the OPs case.
I wouldn't make that assumption. 18 shifts was a standard full month when I was scheduling in the ED. Why? Because all the rotators still had their continuity clinic or didactics they had to do every week, so they had to be off shift in a way that would not violate duty hours if they were to still attend the regularly scheduled time. You also needed to allow time to switch between day and night shifts (shifts were 10 hours and staggered throughout the day to allow for more residents to be there when there was more patient volume), and since we still had to allow people to attend clinic (which was universally during the day), we couldn't stack someone with two weeks of night shifts. Most months, we had enough rotators to allow for about 18 shifts for a full time person (someone not taking vacation, rotating the entire month). Sometimes, we had more and a full time person only did 16 shifts. Sometimes we had less and they did 20 shifts instead.

The Adult ED residents all thought it was easy coming to our ED, and it was definitely a lighter month compared to the wards/ICU, but it wasn't a light month like a clinic month was. It's all about perspective ;)
 

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You're totally missing the point. If the OP was doing an IM or surgery month, he/she would be working 25 - 26 days, so taking 7 days off would mean still having 18 or 19 shifts. In this case, the OP is only scheduled for 18 days. So taking 7 days off (even taking 5 - 6 days), means that much less time on that rotation. You really think 11 shifts is enough to pass a rotation? I did more shifts than that on my MS 4 ER rotation and I felt it wasn't enough. There has to be some standard minimum for interns/residents and this is likely in your resident handbook and/or orientation materials. If you're required to work 18 days per month-long rotation to get credit and you're on a rotation where you're only scheduled for 18 shifts, it's probably not a good idea to take vacation that month because it does suck that you'll be charged for time off you already had.
I don't disagree with you that a minimum amount of shifts may be necessary to be required for exposure to meet the minimum requirement for completion of a rotation, but the residency has done this resident a disservice by taking 5 days of vacation from him/her and not providing 5 (or some number) days off from work in return.

OP should try to change his vacation. People bundle shifts on ER months all the time to get a week off without having to take vacation. OP's residency should make it clear that residents should not take vacation during ER unless there is an absolute mandatory week that they require off, as they will be getting screwed on the back end if they take vacation during that block.
 
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I don't disagree with you that a minimum amount of shifts may be necessary to be required for exposure to meet the minimum requirement for completion of a rotation, but the residency has done this resident a disservice by taking 5 days of vacation from him/her and not providing 5 (or some number) days off from work in return.

OP should try to change his vacation. People bundle shifts on ER months all the time to get a week off without having to take vacation. OP's residency should make it clear that residents should not take vacation during ER unless there is an absolute mandatory week that they require off, as they will be getting screwed on the back end if they take vacation during that block.
Meh sadly lots of people get screwed with this. I got plenty screwed during residency - initially more call, I was placed during my ED rotation on all holidays - and some fellow interns on no holidays, despite me saying so, i was told it didn't matter. During PGY-2 too same thing until I made a stink. I covered more holidays than most other people. So while this resident is definitely getting screwed, some of us unfortunately do get screwed.
 

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I don't disagree with you that a minimum amount of shifts may be necessary to be required for exposure to meet the minimum requirement for completion of a rotation, but the residency has done this resident a disservice by taking 5 days of vacation from him/her and not providing 5 (or some number) days off from work in return.

OP should try to change his vacation. People bundle shifts on ER months all the time to get a week off without having to take vacation. OP's residency should make it clear that residents should not take vacation during ER unless there is an absolute mandatory week that they require off, as they will be getting screwed on the back end if they take vacation during that block.
I think it comes down to the policies of the program. If everyone gets a week of vacation on this rotation, but has to work as much as everyone else, then it may not be right, but it's fair.

If only a handful of people have vacation on this rotation, then yes, they should work less than those who are not scheduled for vacation during the rotation.
 
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I think it comes down to the policies of the program. If everyone gets a week of vacation on this rotation, but has to work as much as everyone else, then it may not be right, but it's fair.

If only a handful of people have vacation on this rotation, then yes, they should work less than those who are not scheduled for vacation during the rotation.
Out of curiosity, how do most programs deal with holidays and things like that? I have seen some programs say "residents get x number of holidays per year" so that, as it was my frequent case, one resident doesn't get stuck with a bunch of holidays.

curious what other programs tend to do?
 

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Out of curiosity, how do most programs deal with holidays and things like that? I have seen some programs say "residents get x number of holidays per year" so that, as it was my frequent case, one resident doesn't get stuck with a bunch of holidays.

curious what other programs tend to do?
For the rest of the year there was an attempt to not screw anyone over but no set policy. For christmas and new year there was an unofficial policy where half the people would work one and half would work the other. You had to work it out with your counterpart (we had 2 residents per year plus two prelim interns) who got which and it usually worked out fine (either each preferred the opposite and both were happy or they took turns or worked it out some other way). Every service was rolled into one big team taking care of everyone for a week and the other week everyone was off without it being counted as vacation. I thought it was a great system.
 
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For the rest of the year there was an attempt to not screw anyone over but no set policy. For christmas and new year there was an unofficial policy where half the people would work one and half would work the other. You had to work it out with your counterpart (we had 2 residents per year plus two prelim interns) who got which and it usually worked out fine (either each preferred the opposite and both were happy or they took turns or worked it out some other way). Every service was rolled into one big team taking care of everyone for a week and the other week everyone was off without it being counted as vacation. I thought it was a great system.
Agreed! Taht's why I was soo frustrated that I would get most/many holidays and numerous residents got like no holidays or very few.
 
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gutonc

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Out of curiosity, how do most programs deal with holidays and things like that? I have seen some programs say "residents get x number of holidays per year" so that, as it was my frequent case, one resident doesn't get stuck with a bunch of holidays.

curious what other programs tend to do?
From my interview trail it varied. Where I did residency, no consideration was given. I worked Thanksgiving twice and Xmas Eve/Day, NYE/Day all years of residency. For some reason I got assigned to the ED every year during the block that included Xmas and NY. The ED schedulers of course scheduled all off-service residents plus one EM senior for those days.

I stopped caring about holidays right about then.
 
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From my interview trail it varied. Where I did residency, no consideration was given. I worked Thanksgiving twice and Xmas Eve/Day, NYE/Day all years of residency. For some reason I got assigned to the ED every year during the block that included Xmas and NY. The ED schedulers of course scheduled all off-service residents plus one EM senior for those days.

I stopped caring about holidays right about then.
I had a similar experience. I actually did care. I complained when it became so obvious and evident that it was absurd - and only then did things change. Like some of us aren't human beings or something. Ugh!
 
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The ED schedulers of course scheduled all off-service residents plus one EM senior for those days.
Our ER has been trying to do the same with our residents this year and they’re quickly finding out that their residents spend a lot more time with us than ours spend with them. Some other departments haven’t had their residents’ backs on it though, which is a shame.
 
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Our ER has been trying to do the same with our residents this year and they’re quickly finding out that their residents spend a lot more time with us than ours spend with them. Some other departments haven’t had their residents’ backs on it though, which is a shame.
It is wise to never try to screw another specialty's residents in order to try to benefit one's residents - in the end, having extra residents is generally speaking a good thing for all. And if certain departments hear of poor treatment, they will eventually be pulled out, and it's a loss for all.
 

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It is wise to never try to screw another specialty's residents in order to try to benefit one's residents - in the end, having extra residents is generally speaking a good thing for all. And if certain departments hear of poor treatment, they will eventually be pulled out, and it's a loss for all.
Agree, we had been trying to move our ICU rotation to our other campus (with a bigger, much more educational ICU experience) but finally got to pull the trigger on the switch when they tried scheduling our off service resident for every holiday and most weekends in the month. Now they just get one fewer resident.
 
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What does this mean?

I can't believe I'm THAT attending, but I feel like some residents really don't understand the purpose of residency. Yes, there's widespread abuse in medicine and yes, residents need more rights, but residency is for learning and I think that gets lost in all the screaming about the other stuff. Expecting a resident to work 18 shifts in a month-long rotation is not earth-shattering. If you're off-service, that's the last time you will ever have to do an ER rotation (if that's what it is), so why would you want to reduce that number? That's still 12 days off. Literally, you get 12 days off that month. Ask our colleagues in IM if they get 12 days off in a month. Some are lucky if they get more than 4. So your rotation is allowing you a week's vacation time, but since you're already working so few shifts, they're scheduling your shifts around your vacation. I'm not sure why this is shock-worthy thing?
what you’re saying is nonsense. If I work an IM month for example, I have 4 days off per month so I’d be working 26/30 days hypothetically. So according to your genius logic I need to work 26 days that month in order to get credit for that month. So then if I take vacation for 7 days..I’d have to work 26 days in 23 days..yeah that makes sense. If he’s scheduled for 18 shifts in 30 days and he takes 1 week vacation, he should only have to work like 13-14 shifts for the 3 weeks..not all 18 shifts..he took a vacation so he gets those shifts off..that’s the definition of a vacation...not them getting to reschedule all your work..
 
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what you’re saying is nonsense. If I work an IM month for example, I have 4 days off per month so I’d be working 26/30 days hypothetically. So according to your genius logic I need to work 26 days that month in order to get credit for that month. So then if I take vacation for 7 days..I’d have to work 26 days in 23 days..yeah that makes sense. If he’s scheduled for 18 shifts in 30 days and he takes 1 week vacation, he should only have to work like 13-14 shifts for the 3 weeks..not all 18 shifts..he took a vacation so he gets those shifts off..that’s the definition of a vacation...not them getting to reschedule all your work..
Not necessarily. It depends on what the number is. In my residency we had to work I think it was 13 days of our assigned rotation to pass. Of course we weren't allowed to take vacation on floor or ICU months so we usually worked way more than that. But for ED months and such we knew of we took time off we still had to work the minimum shifts. It also came up as we crossovered one ICU for a week of night float while on an elective and it meant we couldn't take vacation on that elective. It also made it clear if we got credit for a rotation when medical or family emergencies came up and people had to miss days unexpectedly.
 
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Not necessarily. It depends on what the number is. In my residency we had to work I think it was 13 days of our assigned rotation to pass. Of course we weren't allowed to take vacation on floor or ICU months so we usually worked way more than that. But for ED months and such we knew of we took time off we still had to work the minimum shifts. It also came up as we crossovered one ICU for a week of night float while on an elective and it meant we couldn't take vacation on that elective. It also made it clear if we got credit for a rotation when medical or family emergencies came up and people had to miss days unexpectedly.
yeah..it depends what the number is..if they schedule you for 18 for the entire month..the number is not 18..
 

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what you’re saying is nonsense. If I work an IM month for example, I have 4 days off per month so I’d be working 26/30 days hypothetically. So according to your genius logic I need to work 26 days that month in order to get credit for that month. So then if I take vacation for 7 days..I’d have to work 26 days in 23 days..yeah that makes sense. If he’s scheduled for 18 shifts in 30 days and he takes 1 week vacation, he should only have to work like 13-14 shifts for the 3 weeks..not all 18 shifts..he took a vacation so he gets those shifts off..that’s the definition of a vacation...not them getting to reschedule all your work..
Most of us were able to respond to this thread without being rude. Perhaps when you're actually you're a resident you'll understand the logic because I assure you, just because you're confused (as evidenced by your response) doesn't make it "nonsense."

No one said you need to work 26 days to get credit for a month of IM. What I said is that all programs have a minimum number of days you need to work to get credit for ALL rotations. There's just a standard minimum and if you don't reach it, you don't get credit. If you're scheduled for derm rotation for 12 shifts and you decide to take 7 days off, you don't get credit for that rotation and comparing it to a rotation where you're scheduled for 26 shifts and taking 7 days off is not comparable by any stretch of the imagination.
 
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PTPoeny

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yeah..it depends what the number is..if they schedule you for 18 for the entire month..the number is not 18..
It could be. I highly doubt the number is 18 for the OP for someone would have just told them this and it would probably be well known within the residency that missing even a single day means you don't get credit for the rotation. I'm sure there is a residency somewhere that has their residents scheduled for the exact minimum number of shifts on some rotation.
 
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Most of us were able to respond to this thread without being rude. Perhaps when you're actually you're a resident you'll understand the logic because I assure you, just because you're confused (as evidenced by your response) doesn't make it "nonsense."

No one said you need to work 26 days to get credit for a month of IM. What I said is that all programs have a minimum number of days you need to work to get credit for ALL rotations. There's just a standard minimum and if you don't reach it, you don't get credit. If you're scheduled for derm rotation for 12 shifts and you decide to take 7 days off, you don't get credit for that rotation and comparing it to a rotation where you're scheduled for 26 shifts and taking 7 days off is not comparable by any stretch of the imagination.
what you said was he needs to work 18 to get credit. That is nonsense. If he’s scheduled for 18 he likely needs like 13-14 to get credit so they shouldn’t be making him work all 18.
 

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what you said was he needs to work 18 to get credit. That is nonsense. If he’s scheduled for 18 he likely needs like 13-14 to get credit so they shouldn’t be making him work all 18.
He said it's happened to everyone on that rotation. They all work 18 shifts that month. So where are you getting that he "likely needs like 13-14 to get credit"? You have no idea what you're talking about.
 
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rokshana

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what you’re saying is nonsense. If I work an IM month for example, I have 4 days off per month so I’d be working 26/30 days hypothetically. So according to your genius logic I need to work 26 days that month in order to get credit for that month. So then if I take vacation for 7 days..I’d have to work 26 days in 23 days..yeah that makes sense. If he’s scheduled for 18 shifts in 30 days and he takes 1 week vacation, he should only have to work like 13-14 shifts for the 3 weeks..not all 18 shifts..he took a vacation so he gets those shifts off..that’s the definition of a vacation...not them getting to reschedule all your work..
But generally you don’t get to take vacation on an IM month, if you are an IM resident.

If the ED rotation requires the resident to do all the shifts scheduled, then it probably shouldn’t be a rotation that vacation could be taken.

Where I did residency, there were months that we could not take vacation...inpt months, icu/ccu months were rotations that we could not take vacation...electives were fair game for vacation , but if you were on jeopardy/backup then you couldn’t take vacation at that time. While the ED rotation required a certain number of shifts to be done, they could easily be arranged to have 4-5 days straight off ...the ED Chief usually asked it there was time that we wanted off and scheduled us accordingly...it’s not like they relied on us to be THE resident since we were off service rotators.

As for holidays...half of us worked the week Christmas and the other halftime week of NYD...and it was decided by a sign up sheet posted on the house staff office door...there was a sign up sheet for interns and one for residents...whoever got to the sign sheet first and signed up got the holiday they wanted...lower on the list, no guarantees...so basically decided by a mad rush to the house staff office once you got that page that the signup sheet was up! The other holidays were decided based on the rotation you were on...want thanksgiving off? Had to make sure you were on an outpt elective that have the days off or radiology( they didn’t really care if you ever showed up!)
 
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But generally you don’t get to take vacation on an IM month, if you are an IM resident.

If the ED rotation requires the resident to do all the shifts scheduled, then it probably shouldn’t be a rotation that vacation could be taken.

Where I did residency, there were months that we could not take vacation...inpt months, icu/ccu months were rotations that we could not take vacation...electives were fair game for vacation , but if you were on jeopardy/backup then you couldn’t take vacation at that time. While the ED rotation required a certain number of shifts to be done, they could easily be arranged to have 4-5 days straight off ...the ED Chief usually asked it there was time that we wanted off and scheduled us accordingly...it’s not like they relied on us to be THE resident since we were off service rotators.

As for holidays...half of us worked the week Christmas and the other halftime week of NYD...and it was decided by a sign up sheet posted on the house staff office door...there was a sign up sheet for interns and one for residents...whoever got to the sign sheet first and signed up got the holiday they wanted...lower on the list, no guarantees...so basically decided by a mad rush to the house staff office once you got that page that the signup sheet was up! The other holidays were decided based on the rotation you were on...want thanksgiving off? Had to make sure you were on an outpt elective that have the days off or radiology( they didn’t really care if you ever showed up!)
I agree with you on the holiday issue - reason why I was flabbergasted when I was put on repeated holidays over and over again. To anyone with any common sense, it would be logical that the same person shouldn't work holidays over and over again.
 

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I'll wade back in here to mention that, at least for the American Board of Surgery, you need to complete a set number of clinical weeks per year (which can average over the first three and last two years of residency). Any non-clinical time (vacation, travel for conferences, family leave) counts against your time away. Within our program, any time off longer than 48 hours starts counting as "vacation days" for this reason. And when you fill out your board application, you have to document your weekly clinical activity. Strictly speaking, that means if you don't show up for a week, you shouldn't be taking credit for it. The idea of fitting 4 weeks of shifts into 3 weeks and then calling the 4th week "clinical" seems to fit a bit of a gray area to me. Personally, it's not something I'd want to leave to the bureaucracy.
 

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Out of curiosity, how do most programs deal with holidays and things like that? I have seen some programs say "residents get x number of holidays per year" so that, as it was my frequent case, one resident doesn't get stuck with a bunch of holidays.

curious what other programs tend to do?
But generally you don’t get to take vacation on an IM month, if you are an IM resident.

If the ED rotation requires the resident to do all the shifts scheduled, then it probably shouldn’t be a rotation that vacation could be taken.

Where I did residency, there were months that we could not take vacation...inpt months, icu/ccu months were rotations that we could not take vacation...electives were fair game for vacation , but if you were on jeopardy/backup then you couldn’t take vacation at that time. While the ED rotation required a certain number of shifts to be done, they could easily be arranged to have 4-5 days straight off ...the ED Chief usually asked it there was time that we wanted off and scheduled us accordingly...it’s not like they relied on us to be THE resident since we were off service rotators.

As for holidays...half of us worked the week Christmas and the other halftime week of NYD...and it was decided by a sign up sheet posted on the house staff office door...there was a sign up sheet for interns and one for residents...whoever got to the sign sheet first and signed up got the holiday they wanted...lower on the list, no guarantees...so basically decided by a mad rush to the house staff office once you got that page that the signup sheet was up! The other holidays were decided based on the rotation you were on...want thanksgiving off? Had to make sure you were on an outpt elective that have the days off or radiology( they didn’t really care if you ever showed up!)
We essentially did this for Xmas and New Years, except it was slightly more civilized. We sent out an email at like 7:30pm (so the day residents were home, and the night residents had finished their initial rounds) asking for requests. When I was an intern, it was first come, first serve. When I was chief, we took all the requests and divided them amongst the people who were already on a given rotation, and the people on electives were filled in as needed. We managed to get all but like 2 people their preferences for scheduling. After I left, the program made a ‘holiday block’ that was two weeks long, as well as a ‘graduation block’ for the third years needing to move for fellowship to have a week or so off at the end of the year. People were randomized into what they worked in the holiday block, except the person doing child neuro had to do ED in order to fulfill all ED requirements in 2 years instead of the standard 3.

For the other holidays, it depended on what rotation you were on. Most inpatient people split the long weekends, except PICU, which use continued their typical schedule. ED was hit or miss whether you would get it off or not. Outpatient rotations you could maybe get the holiday off, but you would be at risk of being on call and getting called in.
 

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No way this is actually a thing. People put up with this? I stopped reading half way through this thread. You're getting shafted, is there anything else that needs to be said? Go ask for a refund on your vacation week and do your regular month.
 
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