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premedmind

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I emailed a professor of mine twice about writing me a LOR....I was the BEST student in her class for a full year....above a 95 avg both semesters, #1 student out of 60-70 kids (it was a lab) I always contributed, asked good questions...etc, went to office hours, blah blah blah.

I emailed her once last winter, and again just last week. No response both times, and I know for a fact she checks her e-mails.

I did this for a chem lab professor too, no response. I was probably the top student in his class also. He even considered me "brilliant".

I know that they all check their e-mails, so that's not the case.

Probably a good thing since I transferred. Maybe professors will write me LOR's now.
 

Quix

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I emailed a professor of mine twice about writing me a LOR....I was the BEST student in her class for a full year....above a 95 avg both semesters, #1 student out of 60-70 kids (it was a lab) I always contributed, asked good questions...etc, went to office hours, blah blah blah.

I emailed her once last winter, and again just last week. No response both times, and I know for a fact she checks her e-mails.

I did this for a chem lab professor too, no response. I was probably the top student in his class also. He even considered me "brilliant".

I know that they all check their e-mails, so that's not the case.

We get busy, too, and don't always have time to get back to every e-mail or LOR request punctually.
 

armybound

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Not unheard of. I've had professors flat out tell me they'd "be glad to" write me a LOR, then stop responding to emails for a few months.
 

premedmind

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It was a school of around 4500 undergrads, I am sure they weren't that busy to not respond to my email at all, twice. I asked my chem lab professor to at least be my reference, I startedt the email by asking him what kind of research he does, then asked if he could by a reference for me. He didn't asnwer the reference part, and I quote, he said "I think you are very brilliant".
 

Quix

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It was a school of around 4500 undergrads, I am sure they weren't that busy to not respond to my email at all, twice. I asked my chem lab professor to at least be my reference, I startedt the email by asking him what kind of research he does, then asked if he could by a reference for me. He didn't asnwer the reference part, and I quote, he said "I think you are very brilliant".

You simply don't know that. Do you have access to their schedules? Their personal lives? Their outside interests and research? We have lives, too, and LOR's are not an entitlement for undergraduates, but a favor. I have students that stand out and enjoy talking with them, but I have a lot of outside things that I have to do, too, so their needs will sometimes get the back burner.
 

premedmind

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You simply don't know that. Do you have access to their schedules? Their personal lives? Their outside interests and research? We have lives, too, and LOR's are not an entitlement for undergraduates, but a favor. I have students that stand out and enjoy talking with them, but I have a lot of outside things that I have to do, too, so their needs will sometimes get the back burner.

Well, I disagree with your argument. Emailing a professor TWICE, each at two very different times (winter and summer), and completely being ignored is not fair. EVERY other time i've emailed her about something else she replied.
 

ADeadLois

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It was a school of around 4500 undergrads, I am sure they weren't that busy to not respond to my email at all, twice. I asked my chem lab professor to at least be my reference, I startedt the email by asking him what kind of research he does, then asked if he could by a reference for me. He didn't asnwer the reference part, and I quote, he said "I think you are very brilliant".

Unfortunately, professors have a lot on their plate, and don't necessarily have time to respond to e-mails, even of their most "brilliant" students. Do these professors have office assistants? I found it much easier to go through them (they usually handle the logistics of this kind of stuff, heck, they may even write them).
 

Quix

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Well, I disagree with your argument. Emailing a professor TWICE, each at two very different times (winter and summer), and completely being ignored is not fair. EVERY other time i've emailed her about something else she replied.

You can disagree all you like, but until you have the experience of being a professor, you can't really speak with authority on what's fair/unfair or our availability for your LOR wants.
 

jae9970

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It was a school of around 4500 undergrads, I am sure they weren't that busy to not respond to my email at all, twice. I asked my chem lab professor to at least be my reference, I startedt the email by asking him what kind of research he does, then asked if he could by a reference for me. He didn't asnwer the reference part, and I quote, he said "I think you are very brilliant".

so professors in small schools have more free time than professors in state universities? not really..

and you really should have visited them in person to ask for favors like that. Was there a reason you couldn't? You transferred far away, maybe? In my undergraduate years, I have had some instances where I had to ask a very tough favor (one was asking a professor to "illegally" allow me to take a conflict final exam) and emails didn't work.. the professors would ignore them or reply with one line. When I visited them personally, and had my sympathy face on, i had much more success rate
 

nammy

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you should go and meet him personally during his office hours.
 

premedmind

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I figured e-mailing was the best option (puts the least amt of pressure on them), rather than just popping in after many months and asking for a LOR. Guess that's what it takes.

BTW; to the business bit. I've seen first hand how busy professors at a large state U's can be. A line of 15 kids waiting to ask the prof. a question after the class EVERY DAY is busy. As opposed to professors at small colleges, where NO ONE went to office hours.
 

jae9970

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Emailing a professor TWICE, each at two very different times (winter and summer), and completely being ignored is not fair. EVERY other time i've emailed her about something else she replied.

in my opinion, emails are still not considered a formal method of communication by many people. Especially older people. Even some of my friends don't really seem care about emails.. Although, personally, I go through both my Inbox and Spam Junk Mail Folder thoroughly to not miss anything. (im almost paranoid)

imagine if you wrote on your professor's wall on facebook (if he/she has one) requesting a LoR. And you KNOW he/she checks facebook because you saw the professor's wall writing to your friend today. Would you think it's unfair?
 

premedmind

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in my opinion, emails are still not considered a formal method of communication by many people. Especially older people. Even some of my friends don't really seem care about emails.. Although, personally, I go through both my Inbox and Spam Junk Mail Folder thoroughly to not miss anything. (im almost paranoid)

imagine if you wrote on your professor's wall on facebook (if he/she has one) requesting a LoR. And you KNOW he/she checks facebook because you saw the professor's wall writing to your friend today. Would you think it's unfair?

Yeah, because I'm not stupid. This is the internet-age, everything is run by e-mail, web apps, etc.
 
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Quix

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RE: 15 kids = busy.

We have our own research, publications we are expected to generate in order to keep our jobs, grant money to find and proposals to write, undergraduate and graduate students for whom we are advisors, dissertation committee work, hunting for tenure track positions if we aren't currently in one (with interviews), families, etc., etc.
 

ADeadLois

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RE: 15 kids = busy.

We have our own research, publications we are expected to generate in order to keep our jobs, grant money to find and proposals to write, undergraduate and graduate students for whom we are advisors, dissertation committee work, hunting for tenure track positions if we aren't currently in one (with interviews), families, etc., etc.

It never ceases to crack me up when someone asks a question and then blatantly disregards the insight of someone who clearly knows what they're talking about.
 

premedmind

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RE: 15 kids = busy.

We have our own research, publications we are expected to generate in order to keep our jobs, grant money to find and proposals to write, undergraduate and graduate students for whom we are advisors, dissertation committee work, hunting for tenure track positions if we aren't currently in one (with interviews), families, etc., etc.

And I understand that. The stress of finding recommendations and being ignored by professors is not really helping anything (for me, at least).

I will probably go to their office hours if I really need the letter. How long is too long to wait for a LOR after your classes had ended with that prof?
 

Bacchus

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You need to go to the professor's office. Ask if she'll write the letter. If she will, give her your personal statement, transcript (if its not clear of your abilities), and possibly a working resume or CV. If you haven't sat down with this professor constantly then it may be hard to remember you. Good luck, and stop being afraid of talking to professors about IMPORTANT things face to face.
 
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Blade28

I always asked for letters of reference in person - when applying to med school, and afterwards. It's common courtesy.
 

jochi1543

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I had this problem, too - I graduated and moved very far away, so "popping in" was not an option. I e-mailed him 2x, and also called and left a voicemail message. No response! Eventually, I had to move on and ask someone else. I'm gonna say, though, when that professor was up for tenure review, I wrote him a VERY good evaluation letter. And yes, he's got tenure now. And now I kind of regret writing such a glorifying letter for him back in the days.:rolleyes:
 

premedmind

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I had this problem, too - I graduated and moved very far away, so "popping in" was not an option. I e-mailed him 2x, and also called and left a voicemail message. No response! Eventually, I had to move on and ask someone else. I'm gonna say, though, when that professor was up for tenure review, I wrote him a VERY good evaluation letter. And yes, he's got tenure now. And now I kind of regret writing such a glorifying letter for him back in the days.:rolleyes:

Well like I said, I transferred and "popping in" would be on short notice and may put her on the spot. That's why I e-mailed. It's common courtesy for THEM, not me.
 

Quix

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Well like I said, I transferred and "popping in" would be on short notice and may put her on the spot. That's why I e-mailed. It's common courtesy for THEM, not me.


E-mail the department administrative assistant to put you on your professor's calendar. Then it would be an appointment, not popping in, and would be a good time to provide your professor with information he/she would need (transcript, resume/CV, etc.).
 

leopanther

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RE: 15 kids = busy.

We have our own research, publications we are expected to generate in order to keep our jobs, grant money to find and proposals to write, undergraduate and graduate students for whom we are advisors, dissertation committee work, hunting for tenure track positions if we aren't currently in one (with interviews), families, etc., etc.

Still...med/grad schools require LORs. Where are students supposed to get them if the professors are busy? Especially non-science majors who only may have had 3-4 sci profs total. It sucks that there's so much pressure on professors but LOR writing should be an expected part of the job, in my opinion. Otherwise people can't apply.
 

jae9970

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Yeah, because I'm not stupid. This is the internet-age, everything is run by e-mail, web apps, etc.

i agree, but still, important matters must be done face to face

trust me, i've been in the same situations before.


Well like I said, I transferred and "popping in" would be on short notice and may put her on the spot. That's why I e-mailed. It's common courtesy for THEM, not me.

So, imagine you are trying to break up with your girlfriend. (or boyfriend) A very serious and important business for both you and your mate, for sure. Would you send her (or him) an e-mail notifying your intention of terminating the relationship? Because it's common courtesy for them? Popping in and telling on such a short notice is rude?? :laugh:
 
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Quix

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Still...med/grad schools require LORs. Where are students supposed to get them if the professors are busy? Especially non-science majors who only may have had 3-4 sci profs total. It sucks that there's so much pressure on professors but LOR writing should be an expected part of the job, in my opinion. Otherwise people can't apply.

No, it's not an expected part of the job, nor should it be (and it's amazing how willing people are to assign work to other people). Again, LOR's are a favor, and it's a matter of personal responsibility for students to take the initiative beyond sending an e-mail (professors can receive *hundreds* of these per day; I have a friend teaching in the Psych department at UPitt who is inundated *daily* with e-mail - we're good friends and sometimes *I* don't hear back from her). I teach ~100 students per semester, does it therefore stand to reason that on top of doing all of the grading (bearing in mind that this translates to ~1000 pages of material to read critically, and grade), conducting research, writing grant proposals, writing articles and books, working on professional development (tenure), advising, personal relationships, etc., etc., that I now have to write LOR's for ~100 students per semester? I also assume that you would want us to write *good* LOR's, personalized, non-generic, chock full of insights into your character as to why you would make good graduate students/doctors? Please.

Oh, and we can now add additional responsibilities on to those I originally mentioned above: I just received two fairly urgent e-mails asking me to prepare presentations on my research as part of routine clinical research education, as well as two new studies to design, find funding, and take through the IRB process.
 

jae9970

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No, it's not an expected part of the job, nor should it be (and it's amazing how willing people are to assign work to other people). Again, LOR's are a favor, and it's a matter of personal responsibility for students to take the initiative beyond sending an e-mail (professors can receive *hundreds* of these per day; I have a friend teaching in the Psych department at UPitt who is inundated *daily* with e-mail - we're good friends and sometimes *I* don't hear back from her). I teach ~100 students per semester, does it therefore stand to reason that on top of doing all of the grading (bearing in mind that this translates to ~1000 pages of material to read critically, and grade), conducting research, writing grant proposals, writing articles and books, working on professional development (tenure), advising, personal relationships, etc., etc., that I now have to write LOR's for ~100 students per semester? I also assume that you would want us to write *good* LOR's, personalized, non-generic, chock full of insights into your character as to why you would make good graduate students/doctors? Please.

Oh, and we can now add additional responsibilities on to those I originally mentioned above: I just received two fairly urgent e-mails asking me to prepare presentations on my research as part of routine clinical research education, as well as two new studies to design, find funding, and take through the IRB process.

you could also add this to your list: Looking through public forums and fix ignorant people's selfish posts. Gosh, how can they..??

yea it's not an expected part of your job. However, I was fortunate enough that most of the professors i have asked for a LOR almost seemed to take it as one.

and don't forget the thank you notes later.. professors have emotions too.
 

Quix

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I will note that I have yet to turn a student down who has asked for a letter; I have no qualms writing them, and I do play up a student's strengths. What bugs me is the sense of entitlement with which people approach this process.
 

Wackie

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Instead of being a whiny little premed, put your personal statement, a sample letter, SASE to interfolio or whatever you choose to use, your CV, all that mess into a big manila envelope and hand deliver it to his office and say something to the effect of, "hey, how's life treating you? I decided to drop off some things which you may need for writing my LOR. I wrote the date on the outside of this envelope that I need this by as well as my contact information should you need it. Again, thanks for doing this. I really appreciate it." Now, it will be sitting on his desk and will also contain everything he needs in a nice little package.
 

leopanther

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No, it's not an expected part of the job, nor should it be (and it's amazing how willing people are to assign work to other people). Again, LOR's are a favor, and it's a matter of personal responsibility for students to take the initiative beyond sending an e-mail (professors can receive *hundreds* of these per day; I have a friend teaching in the Psych department at UPitt who is inundated *daily* with e-mail - we're good friends and sometimes *I* don't hear back from her). I teach ~100 students per semester, does it therefore stand to reason that on top of doing all of the grading (bearing in mind that this translates to ~1000 pages of material to read critically, and grade), conducting research, writing grant proposals, writing articles and books, working on professional development (tenure), advising, personal relationships, etc., etc., that I now have to write LOR's for ~100 students per semester? I also assume that you would want us to write *good* LOR's, personalized, non-generic, chock full of insights into your character as to why you would make good graduate students/doctors? Please.

Oh, and we can now add additional responsibilities on to those I originally mentioned above: I just received two fairly urgent e-mails asking me to prepare presentations on my research as part of routine clinical research education, as well as two new studies to design, find funding, and take through the IRB process.

Then perhaps LORs should be abolished if there's no proper system for getting them and since it's actually very rare for a prof to write for a student they actually know well. Or maybe they need more professors in your school. Or have advisers write them.
 

Quix

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Then perhaps LORs should be abolished if there's no proper system for getting them and since it's actually very rare for a prof to write for a student they actually know well. Or maybe they need more professors in your school. Or have advisers write them.

I'd prefer a common sense approach: LOR's are formally requested by students with supporting material provided after showing interest in the class by asking intelligent questions and showing up at office hours to develop something more than a perfunctory anonymous student-teacher relationship. If the professor is willing to write the letter and feels comfortable discussing the strengths and weaknesses of an applicant, they then take on the responsibility of doing so in a timely manner. The student and professor remain in contact throughout the process at more than a "Did you write it yet?" level. The professor attempts to accomodate the student's needs, and the student attempts to accomodate the professor's other responsibilities. Abolishing LOR's entirely means simply trusting subjective assessments via the AMCAS/AACOMAS primaries (and unscreened secondaries) and raw numbers, which may or may not be indicative of the student's ability to succeed.
 

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I would never, ever, ask for a LoR via email.

Asking a professor, or anyone, for a LoR is basically asking them to put their reputation and word on the line for you. Asking for a LoR is basically like asking someone to cosign a loan for you. They are backing you so you can "get your foot in the door" or get established. If they recommend you and then you fail to prove that you were worthy of such recommendation, it doesn't only make you look bad, it makes that professor look bad as well.

If someone ever asked me for a LoR via email, I'd tell them I would've been happy to do so if they came by my office to ask in person and would suggest that they ask the next person on their list face to face.



There may be exceptions to this, but they are very, very few are far between. If you are several hours away, then write a letter. If you're unable to write a letter, call them. Email should only be acceptable under the most dire and extreme circumstances; and in that event, you should state what those circumstances are and hope they understand.
 

jr doctor in sd

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You simply don't know that. Do you have access to their schedules? Their personal lives? Their outside interests and research? We have lives, too, and LOR's are not an entitlement for undergraduates, but a favor. I have students that stand out and enjoy talking with them, but I have a lot of outside things that I have to do, too, so their needs will sometimes get the back burner.

I agree with Quix on this one. When i sat and had lunch with my chem professor i thought had it so easy (teaching two classes 3 times a week for an hour only - 6 hrs total) + office hours (3 per week). Turns out, he told me that he works 40+ hours a week doing research in his lab and running his team and all the stuff theyre doing. so 40+ hrs a week in a lab running around doing stuff with pipettes + teaching classes and preparing lectures (his first year teaching) + office hours + nagging from some when they see him walking around and want to ask him meaningless questions. I see how this could get tiring FAST. And he's a young professor, so he definitely still wants a life.

and by the way, i agree that emailing something like that doesnt put them on the spot, you're right, but it's definitely not personal at all. Try to ask Qs outside of class next time, get the professor to know some stuff about you class-aside. Then it wont be hard or awkward to ask (granted you do well in the class)
 

ADeadLois

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I would never, ever, ask for a LoR via email.

Asking a professor, or anyone, for a LoR is basically asking them to put their reputation and word on the line for you. Asking for a LoR is basically like asking someone to cosign a loan for you. They are backing you so you can "get your foot in the door" or get established. If they recommend you and then you fail to prove that you were worthy of such recommendation, it doesn't only make you look bad, it makes that professor look bad as well.

If someone ever asked me for a LoR via email, I'd tell them I would've been happy to do so if they came by my office to ask in person and would suggest that they ask the next person on their list face to face.



There may be exceptions to this, but they are very, very few are far between. If you are several hours away, then write a letter. If you're unable to write a letter, call them. Email should only be acceptable under the most dire and extreme circumstances; and in that event, you should state what those circumstances are and hope they understand.

Don't know where this is coming from. You're way off.

I asked for all 4 of my recommendations via e-mail, but phrased it to schedule a time "to possibly talk about writing a letter of recommendation". Formal discussion of your LOR should come face-to-face, but it's perfectly acceptable to have the initial conversation about writing one be through e-mail.

Also, you're severely over-stating the importance of the LOR from the professor's perspective. They're writing about your tangible accomplishments as an undergrad and their perspective on your perspective as a medical student. None of their reputation is on the line.
 
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Enthalpy430

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Don't know where this is coming from. You're way off.

I asked for all 4 of my recommendations via e-mail, but phrased it to schedule a time "to possibly talk about writing a letter of recommendation". Formal discussion of your LOR should come face-to-face, but it's perfectly acceptable to have the initial conversation about writing one be through e-mail.

Also, you're severely over-stating the importance of the LOR from the professor's perspective. They're writing about your tangible accomplishments as an undergrad and their perspective on your perspective as a medical student. None of their reputation is on the line.

The OP didn't state if his email was a simple "I'd like to discuss the possiblity of a LoR with you" or if was "would you write me a LoR". Either way, it's not something I would personally ever do via email. I may see something like "I'd like to know when you're available sometime this week, as I'd like to discuss something with you." I agree that is acceptable.

I am inclined to disagree with your opinion on whether the professor extends themselves when writing a LoR. You're asking the professor to vouch for the claim that you're exceptional. If your efforts after the fact prove the opposite, it may lead one to wonder why the professor who claimed you were so great said so when you obviously didn't prove it. That probably reflects more on your than the professor though.

Maybe I am overstating the importance of LoRs a bit. But, every time I've asked for a letter, I've always considered it as a commitment I sure as hell better live up to.
 

littlealex

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Just curious, do you think the professors have any reasons to dislike you? Do you appear to be a cut-throat pre-med? Do you obsess over grades? Do you ask pointless questions that they've stated will not be on the exam? I know some of my professors hate premeds, and while they're polite to them in classes they make fun of them at lab and are always "too busy" to write rec letters for them.

However, if you have no reasons to believe that the professors dislike you, or that you think they actually like you a lot then they're probably just too busy. I've had a professor whom never responded to my emails (and I know he checks them) until I finally went to talk to him and he was really upbeat and happy to write for me.
 

jon stewart

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You can disagree all you like, but until you have the experience of being a professor, you can't really speak with authority on what's fair/unfair or our availability for your LOR wants.

exactly.....and this idea applies to many other things. I hate it when people think they know what its like to be in a certain situation...when in reality they have never been in that situation....

you cant play tennis buy just watching it....you have to experience it by playing....jeez people.
 

LicensedPremed

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Just because a student is brilliant, that does not mean that a professor is willing to write LOR for him/her. If they do not response, the answer is very simple:they do not have time to care about students' LOR, or they do not want to write LOR for students.
 
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if the prof knows you well then there should not be a problem asking them for a LoR via email. but maybe for some professors it is best to ask in person.
 

cadingcading

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if the prof knows you well then there should not be a problem asking them for a LoR via email. but maybe for some professors it is best to ask in person.


I agree. If I were you I would ask in person. This way, you can give the professor your resume, etc. Good luck :).
 

premedmind

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You know makes me sick, when people who address every single inquisitive person here as a "whining little pre-med". I asked if it was normal for a professor to not repond to my emails....

Now I am getting the elitist clan in this thread, stating how ignorant I am to not know how busy a professor is, how wrong I was to email them, etc. etc.

I wanted someone to simply address my situation in a relaxed, formal manner. Nope, I didn't get that.

Now my question: Because they aren't answering my emails, should I show up to their office or call them first to discuss writing a possible LOR? Or should I give up and not continue.

These letters are NOT for medical school, although they could be. I don't think they would write me a very good letter if they aren't very willing to in the first place. Emailing them was sort of a "feeler"...putting little pressure on them yet still getting the point across. I thought it was a good idea. Guess not.
 

jr doctor in sd

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You know makes me sick, when people who address every single inquisitive person here as a "whining little pre-med". I asked if it was normal for a professor to not repond to my emails....

Now I am getting the elitist clan in this thread, stating how ignorant I am to not know how busy a professor is, how wrong I was to email them, etc. etc.

I wanted someone to simply address my situation in a relaxed, formal manner. Nope, I didn't get that.

Now my question: Because they aren't answering my emails, should I show up to their office or call them first to discuss writing a possible LOR? Or should I give up and not continue.

These letters are NOT for medical school, although they could be. I don't think they would write me a very good letter if they aren't very willing to in the first place. Emailing them was sort of a "feeler"...putting little pressure on them yet still getting the point across. I thought it was a good idea. Guess not.

awe bro dont worry about the criticism...youll get it everywhere so just ignore it if it doesnt apply to you. I would personally ask them once in person, and if they seem hesitant or like they want to decline it means they probably did get those emails. I actually emailed a faculty member that approached me later on and asked why i never emailed them like i said - turns out my emails went straight to his junk folder haha. So he got them and responded. just play it off of the in person meeting and if they seem excited/fine with writing one, congrats. If not, look elsewhere and keep trying :thumbup:
 

ILikeToMoveIt

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You know makes me sick, when people who address every single inquisitive person here as a "whining little pre-med". I asked if it was normal for a professor to not repond to my emails....

Now I am getting the elitist clan in this thread, stating how ignorant I am to not know how busy a professor is, how wrong I was to email them, etc. etc.

I wanted someone to simply address my situation in a relaxed, formal manner. Nope, I didn't get that.

Now my question: Because they aren't answering my emails, should I show up to their office or call them first to discuss writing a possible LOR? Or should I give up and not continue.

These letters are NOT for medical school, although they could be. I don't think they would write me a very good letter if they aren't very willing to in the first place. Emailing them was sort of a "feeler"...putting little pressure on them yet still getting the point across. I thought it was a good idea. Guess not.

I know what you mean. Something similar happened to me - one of the profs who said he'd write me a great letter didn't get back to me until I went to see him in person; and another one - I asked her for a letter in late spring (which she was very happy to write), but she got it in recently. I called her office three times over the summer after she didn't respond to any of my emails (she's usually very fast with emails) and it turned out that she was out of the country. Sometimes things come up. I don't think most profs will tell you that they'll write a letter if they don't intend to. Maybe try calling/talking to them in person. Good luck!
 

Quix

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I refuse to believe you have a life, Quix. :smuggrin:

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"My Mom says I'm cool."
 

inaminute

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I think you should take the hint and go visit someone else, and this time have the attitude that it's a GIGANTIC favor if they write you a letter.
 

jae9970

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i think you should continue seeking a LoR from the prof. Don't get discouraged because the prof "ignored" you.. i highly doubt the professor intentionally did that. Just pay a visit and talk things through rather than trying to do everything by email, it shows that you care
 

prettymonkey

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imagine if you wrote on your professor's wall on facebook (if he/she has one) requesting a LoR. And you KNOW he/she checks facebook because you saw the professor's wall writing to your friend today. Would you think it's unfair?

that is really funny. a professor writing on your friend's wall on facebook. like "hey that was an amazing party last night. i cannot believe how many keg stands we did. LOL!!! see you in physics on monday!!"
 
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